Newbie 1081: Showdown in Newbtown (Game Over, Mafia win)

[Workdawg]

WORKDAWG IS L-1

I'm unsure if a Workdawg claim would make a difference at this point. If he's a powerrole, he's more than likely dead N1.

Are you changing your vote then? If so, what are your reasons for voting me?

[chkflip]

Aside from the odd coincidence with Kade, I think you're town.

I'm not willing to hammer you; just wanted to let everyone know what's what and give my opinion.

[Antihero]

Vote Count #15

alnkpa - 2 (Bulvious, Kard)
Bulvious - 1 (startransmission)
Workdawg - 3 (drmyshottyizsik, h3ll0, Zdenek)
Zdenek - 3 (Workdawg, alnkpa, chkflip)

Not Voting: No one!

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch. Deadline is April 15th. Countdown to deadline.

[Workdawg]

Aside from the odd coincidence with Kade, I think you're town.

I'm not willing to hammer you; just wanted to let everyone know what's what and give my opinion.

What? lol... now you've just got me even more confused. Are you voting for me or not... obviously anti doesn't think so, and he's the one who counts.

[Workdawg]

What is your opinion on Zd?

[alnkpa]

As I see that we got more than a day, I will make my points tomorrow.

[Zdenek]

Startrans is scum because of his inactivity near the deadline, and should be lynched tomorrow.

As far as WD's case goes:

His initial vote on ST is for active lurking. He later comments that he doesn’t seem the point in making a case for his vote because we are able to read his ISO ourselves. He’s essentially asking us to do the work for him. A convenient way to place a vote for a scummy action, without actually pointing out that action.

I never asked anyone to do anything for me. I knew i could provide details, but I didn't see the point since it was so fucking obvious, and I did point out the action. Everyone is going to read things differently, and it seems scummy to me to ask everyone else to make his case for him.

If I read the case and point out specific things that I find scummy, he can simply hop in and say “That’s exactly what I’m talking about.” He doesn’t have to actually even make a case against someone this way. As opposed to sheeping, I’d call this sheep herding… trying to get others to make a case for him so that he can sheep them but seem like he is leading instead.

The first sentencce is stupid speculation, since I never did that, and saying someone is active lurking is making a case. Cases don't have to be walls of text.

That leaves Bulvious (whom he doesn’t comment on at all)

Yes I did.

I think that he's town because early on he agreed that you were probably town. This is a town-tell because it's a sacrifice for scum to say that they think that someone is town; it means that it will be harder for them to push their lynch.

(yes, falsely. Zd said he would lean town on Lynchking BECAUSE OF A POTENTIAL SCUMSLIP in ISO 10.)

Saying that you are leaning town on someone is absolutely different from saying they are pro-town. If you don't see that, you shouldn't be playing.

After this point, they go back and forth a little bit, but there still really isn’t any case here. Just many disagreements about various things.

H3ll0's argument about the talk about the lurker lynch was obviously disingenuous, since he did exactly the thing that he later argued would never happen. He was buddying with Bulvious over it, and using it as a way to contribute without scum hunting.

[startransmission]

Case in point: Hunting in partners is stupid. Assuming I'm scum because I defended someone is dumb.

I agree that hunting in partners, particularly on D1 is stupid. But my suspicion of you is not purely based off you defending people (though that doesn't make you town either) or your potential partnership with h3llo. I think though, that I've put more stock into it then I should. I will always harbor some suspicion of players who push/voice suspicion of all players who garner focus/suspicion. Up until the point of my vote for you, you had done that. But, as I pointed out in when I voted for you, your reasons were often valid. When you considered an old complaint about me that chkflip parroted as a "very convincing" case I found it the first time where your reasoning was questionable. You hadn't really bitten when Zdenek prepared a very similar argument and vote against me earlier. But now you were. And when it turned out the vote by chkflip was going nowhere, you disregarded the case again. The fact that the case was against me was irrelevant, it was that it was yet another potential wagon you expressed interest in and for motives I found questionable. It put your past suspicions of other players in a potentially different, potentially scummy light. It went from viewing you as a pro-town player putting pressure on other players to an anti-town player keeping his options open.

Your defense has been sound. Your actions since my vote haven't strengthened my suspicion. I think I listened to my gut a little much and perhaps convinced myself to see things wrongly.

Unvote

I'll separate my next post to avoid a wall o text.

[Workdawg]

@alnpka

- Stop making excuses and post up. We are running out of time and you are hiding.

@Zd

Startrans is scum because of his inactivity near the deadline, and should be lynched tomorrow.

Do you think a complete lack of posting so far as we near the deadline is worse than alnpka's two one-liners?

I never asked anyone to do anything for me. I knew i could provide details, but I didn't see the point since it was so fucking obvious, and I did point out the action. Everyone is going to read things differently, and it seems scummy to me to ask everyone else to make his case for him.

Your ISO 11 you tell alnpka "You can go look at his ISO and judge for yourself."

The first sentencce is stupid speculation, since I never did that, and saying someone is active lurking is making a case. Cases don't have to be walls of text.

That's because no one took the bait, I know I certainly wasn't going to build your case for you.

Yes I did.
...
I think that he's town because early on he agreed that you were probably town. This is a town-tell because it's a sacrifice for scum to say that they think that someone is town; it means that it will be harder for them to push their lynch.

I was specifically referring to the post in which you outlined your "process of elimination."

Saying that you are leaning town on someone is absolutely different from saying they are pro-town. If you don't see that, you shouldn't be playing.

Saying that you feel ANY bit town about someone because of a scum-slip doesn't make any sense, and that was the point of h3ll0 (and me) mentioning it.

PEdit: I see ST has ninja'd in above me, alas I have to run. I haven't even read his post yet as I don't have time...

[Bulvious]

I'm unsure if a Workdawg claim would make a difference at this point. If he's a powerrole, he's more than likely dead N1.

Uhh... Do I even need to tell you why this is scummy?
Assuming he DOES claim PR, someone can counter claim, and then we know we have scum in one of the two since lying is obviously not very town. If he claims PR and no one does counter claim, it's better to let him be the NK rather than the day kill. That's stupid, it's as good as saying "Oh, let's lynch a PR because he'll die anyway." If we have a better chance lynching someone who ISN'T a pr, I'd rather go that route. But again, we're all assuming he's a PR. If he claims VT, then it doesn't matter a whole lot, does it?


ST, while I appreciate your post - the hell man? Input please? What do you think? Aln, Work, or Zdenek? Or no lynch?

[startransmission]

Workdawg

After voicing my concerns about SF and questioning her about them earlier in the day, I walked away from that feeling she was town. Not protown by any means, but likely newbtown. So I don't look at WD's slot with any additional suspicion then I would anybody else, and in fact might give him more the benefit of the doubt.

When he comes in he points out that he tends to post walls o text. I never found the tendency to do so scummy. Posting a ton of fluff can be used to create noise in the thread, but I don't see WD doing this. His case against Zedenek kinda bugs me. He points out that Zedenek is succinct in his posts, and that his tone rubs him the wrong way. Not acceptable reasons to place a vote by any means. He argues that Zedenek doesn't offer reasoning behind his cases until asked to do so. That's... kinda true. I don't find that a scumtell by any means, no more than the opposite of posting walls o text. And he accuses Zedenek of not presenting a case against me, which he did. Not a great one but one nonetheless. WD somewhat admits this later on.

His ensuing questions to Bulvious regarding sheeping Zedeneks Alnkpka vote were valid. His continued interaction with Zedeneck is well reasoned. I don't find him to be at all wishy washy. He's asked people appropriate questions. He continues to explain his logic, and explain the problem he has with others. He's not been an overly aggressive player, but I don't find that scummy.

While I hate giving out town cards, with WD I'm leaning town. I agree that his case in Zedenek is not strong, but he's standing by it. Those who are on his wagon who feel strongly otherwise have not convinced me with their cases. DMSIS and h3llo in particular. I'm torn on Zedeneks vote switch to Alnpka, then back to WD. While I understand his desire to put his vote somewhere useful, I hope he's placing it on a player who he feels is the likeliest to be scum, not just the likeliest to be lynched.

Ok, off to work. I know everyone's tired of that excuse, and I'm tired of giving it. But circumstances suck right now. I will get into DMSIS, h3llo, and Alnpka next. I will have a vote and my reasoning before deadline, provided a hammer doesn't come down before.

[startransmission]

ST, while I appreciate your post - the hell man? Input please? What do you think? Aln, Work, or Zdenek? Or no lynch?

Certainly not a no-lynch. Again, I will have a vote and my reasoning before deadline. Shit, and I need to get into Zedenek too. I'm rather conflicted about him.

[Workdawg]

Catching up again...

chkflip

- I have no idea where he's at. He said I was L-1, but I'm not. He said he thought I might be a scumpair with Kard, but he think's I'm town? *boggles* Can you get in here and clear this up?

ST

- I look forward to the rest of your insight. I admit that, at first, my case against Zd was pretty weak... I acknowledged that already... but I think the fact that he's been pushing so hard for my lynch despite everything he's said being a misrep of me has made it MUCH more solid. I can't think of a town reason to pretty much make up a case against me.

Shotty

- I still find it interesting that after I refuted his entire case, he says nothing else against me.

h3ll0

- Still waiting for some insight into his vote on me, but it's only been 12 hours.

[Bulvious]

I WANT to stick with Aln, but with 3 hours to DDay, I will concede with Zdenek as my secondary vote.

ST wrote:
I hope he's placing it on a player who he feels is the likeliest to be scum, not just the likeliest to be lynched.

This describes his play throughout the game. He didn't post a case against you at first and didn't leave his vote on you because he didn't think you'd be lynched today - stupid reason, no? He still says you should be lynched tomorrow, but none of why he would think you and Work would be partners. Clearly, if he's implying he wants to lynch WD, he thinks WD is scum. And if he wants to lynch you tomorrow, you must be his scumbuddy. This could be very accurate - but I don't see any evidence on his end for it. Granted, he never directly SAID that, but he's implying it.

So, for concession, for gut, and for other reasons, I am going to

place Zdenek at L-1

and

Vote: Zdenek

[drmyshottyizsik]

6. I did call you out for not posting enough, see above, but I never called you scum for it. Once again, I only said I would support lynching you as a lurker option due to your previous lack of content. You are misreping me...

For my number two pick, I can go either way.
IF shotty gets back in here and posts something relevant (even if it's a wall on why I'm scum), I can give him a pass for today... but so far I think he'd be my number two.
- He replaced in last Wednesday, didn't even post up till Thursday night.
- Friday evening he dropped his accusations down and promised his reasonS Saturday.
- He doesn't get back until Monday (yesterday) at which point he posts ONE reason I am scum and posts barely more than 150 words over the course of 6 posts last night.
It's not Tuesday night, not counting Wednesday since anti announced it pretty late at night, it's now been 6 days and he's still barely contributed anything at all.

So unless you want to lynch someone who isn't scum then you did call me scum.
So either you just lied, or you want to lynch someone who is not scum.
Either way you are scum!

[Workdawg]

@Shotty - I said that I would support a policy lynch against you because your slot has lurked 95% of the game, and even after you replaced in you hadn't posted in almost a week. I never said you were scum as a result of that. Further lies.

[Workdawg]

EBWOP: I see that I didn't say that directly, but if you didn't realize that's what I meant from my post, then... I don't even know what to say to you.

[Workdawg]

Also (sorry for triple posting now):

Obviously my top choice right now is Zd, but if it comes down to it, shotty is my backup option simply because his slot hasn't been around AT ALL. He replaced in last Wednesday, put an ominous post out there claiming his top picks for scum on Friday, and hasn't been back since. Not to mention he replaced banana stickers who posted very little as well. That slot has been vacant the entire game. Sad too, because I was looking forward to playing with him. Seems like an interesting guy from reading other threads around here.

See how I already said my reason for choosing you was because of your former lurker status.

Seriously... Of all the crap in your case against me, you pick that one thing to pick on... and it's yet another case of completely misrepping me.

[drmyshottyizsik]

Yet you didn't want to lynch people based off of activity or lack there of? O RLY?!?!?!
NO! LIES AND MORE LIES!
I have caught you in your own web, now please die.
Some one lynch this guy.

[Zdenek]

I will claim if there is a willing hammer.
Bulvious, using relational tells before there are any flips is pointless.
CHKflip's reads are all over the place.

[alnkpa]

Ok, sorry for my procrastination.
But I see not much has changed. I now have two very good reason to vote Zdenek. First and foremost, I still think he's scum. Still sensible, even ad hominem. I don't think I need to explain all of it, as either I or some other already did it and considering we don't have much time. Second, we don't have much time and there is no other wagon that seems possible for a lynch now.
That should explain enough now. Any questions?

[Kard]

Gah, lots has happened since I last looked at the topic, sorry for not posting up, yesterday was a mess. I'm gonna read up before I leave for school, and voice my thoughts when I get back, it looks like thinks are coming to a close.

[Workdawg]

Yet you didn't want to lynch people based off of activity or lack there of? O RLY?!?!?!
NO! LIES AND MORE LIES!
I have caught you in your own web, now please die.
Some one lynch this guy.

Are you seriously Fucking kidding me right now? This is the last response I will give you until you can prove you have any ability to comprehend what you are reading without twisting it into something it is not.

1. I said I support lynching a lurker ONLY if it means avoiding a no-lynch today.
1a. I never said I WANTED to lynch anyone based on their activity (notice how my vote has remained on the person I think is scum, I never switched to a lurker... I've been holding out hope it wouldn't come to that).
2. I named you as one of the people I would support a policy lurker lynch on if you didn't pick up your activity.
2a. I already said because of your increased activity I would no longer support a policy lynch against you.
3. I never said you were scum because of your activity.

[startransmission]

Closed last night, opening this morning. I have a short day though, will be here to post well before deadline. Please resist the urge to hammer prematurely.

[Bulvious]

Aln wrote:
Ok, sorry for my procrastination.
But I see not much has changed. I now have two very good reason to vote Zdenek. First and foremost, I still think he's scum. Still sensible, even ad hominem. I don't think I need to explain all of it, as either I or some other already did it and considering we don't have much time. Second, we don't have much time and there is no other wagon that seems possible for a lynch now.
That should explain enough now. Any questions

Yes, why are you still not hunting? Why do you have nothing to say about the last few pages? Not one damn thing between Zd and Work? Why do you still appear so scummy? Where's your defense? Why did it suck previously? Why is your town-play lacking?

Lots of questions, please answer them all. And if you can, rectify the errors, i.e. stop being such a shitty town if that's even what you are - please.