Cold War Mafia - GAME OVER!!

[bvoigt]

There are fairly obvious reasons why PV isn't going to go with a 'Fonz knows DP was scum' argument.

I had to think about it for 20 seconds or so. It still doesn't explain how he could misread that badly, though.

[The Fonz]

My point exactly. No-one with remotely normal reading comprehension and honorable intentions would have tried to paint it that way. So it's either simply gigantic literacy failure, or dishonesty.

[PeregrineV]

Wow, in a written game, you'd think that semantics would matter.
Now, did Fonz say this?

The most obvious explanation would be to protect his scum-buddy ThAd. The second most obvious is to buddy up to ThAd-town. Both of those are more likely than 'He really thought ThAd was town and it was worth the risk' because the risk there is HUGE for town.

Or this?

The most obvious explanation would be to protect his buddy ThAd. The second most obvious is to buddy up to ThAd-town. Both of those are more likely than 'He really thought ThAd was town and it was worth the risk' because the risk there is HUGE for town.

And, to anyone reading, is there a difference?

Perhaps you mean something else. Why do you think David Parker might have lied? Please be as specific as you can.

[Furcolow]

I'm not saying Feysal isn't scum, but he may very well count towards the soviet win condition
Smargaret may count towards a western win condition
I am clueless as to what those are, or how they will be met exactly in terms of numbering, but come on...
Berlin wall, anyone?

I need to read the fonz's wall, will possibly unvote, but i doubt it

[Furcolow]

Fonz said "(therefore elaborating on the fact that I am all too familiar with Furc's meta)"
You have played HOW MANY games with me?
If ANYONE here OTHER THAN ME is up to snuff on my meta, it would be ThAd.

[Furcolow]

Hence me counting Furcolow's staggering amount of anti-town statements against him as points toward scumminess.

To me, Furc's actually somewhat less antitown than normal here.
Gonnano's looking really scummy. He's gone for a lone wagon on a VI player who's actually playing better than normal, but isn't actually attacking any of the top three wagons.
Thanks ThAd for supplying the Furc as scum meta.

cut,
but,
wut?
sup?

[Furcolow]

Furc does try to scumhunt as town, usually. If a player is trying to scumhunt or faking the same, I can at least try to read them. If I'm going to policy lynch anyone, it probably isn't him.
Furc's openness about playing to survive feels like his town mindset. That said, I haven't actually ever seen his scumplay to compare.

@Furcolow: have you been scum yet? Can you link me please?

so, you're SO up to snuff on my meta, but you JUST HAD TO ASK LOL

[ThAdmiral]

So it's either simply gigantic literacy failure...

[Sotty7]

8th vote count of day 4

Furcolow - 1 -

The Fonz

The Fonz - 3 -

Beasts of the Sea, Lowell, Furcolow

Enigma - 1 -

Scott Brosius

Feysal - 5 -

ThAdmiral, smargaret, Stephoscope, bvoigt, LynchMePls

Not voting - 4 -

Feysal, Enigma, Sathoris, PeregrineV

• With
  14
  alive, it takes
  8
  to lynch.
  
• Deadline for the end of Day four is Thursday 21st of April @ 11am CST
  
• Feysal
  was prodded
  
• Stephoscope
  was prodded.

[The Fonz]

And, to anyone reading, is there a difference?

No, clearly there isn't. The only thing you've changed is to add the word 'scum' to 'buddy' in the second one, but 'buddy' in this context so blatantly obviously means scumbuddy that no reasonable person would interpret it any other way. No one in a mafia game to my knowledge has ever said 'X is Y's buddy' and meant that they were literally friends.

Perhaps you mean something else. Why do you think David Parker might have lied? Please be as specific as you can.

Uh, I answered the question? You know, the bit you twisted?

Fonz said "(therefore elaborating on the fact that I am all too familiar with Furc's meta)"
You have played HOW MANY games with me?
If ANYONE here OTHER THAN ME is up to snuff on my meta, it would be ThAd.

Two. And read others. But what's your point? I'm well aware of your rep as one of the worst VIs in the history of the site.

Hence me counting Furcolow's staggering amount of anti-town statements against him as points toward scumminess.

To me, Furc's actually somewhat less antitown than normal here.
Gonnano's looking really scummy. He's gone for a lone wagon on a VI player who's actually playing better than normal, but isn't actually attacking any of the top three wagons.
Thanks ThAd for supplying the Furc as scum meta.

cut,
but,
wut?
sup?

Quoting out of context, another common misrepresentation tactic. This is from a catchup post, relating to the early part of day one. You appeared to be making scumhunting effort, staying relevant, etc. As time went on, you became more antitown, but more to the point, YOU LIED ABOUT YOUR ROLE. Of course I'm going to change my view on a player who does the single action which most closely corresponds to being scum, and not only that but does it in a way that screams 'self-preservation.'

[ThAdmiral]

And, to anyone reading, is there a difference?

No, clearly there isn't. The only thing you've changed is to add the word 'scum' to 'buddy' in the second one, but 'buddy' in this context so blatantly obviously means scumbuddy that no reasonable person would interpret it any other way. No one in a mafia game to my knowledge has ever said 'X is Y's buddy' and meant that they were literally friends.

This is truth.

[LimMePls]

I'm trying to work out what your actual problem is here. Do you not think you should always lynch in non-lylo situations where two players claim contradicting role information, especially when neither is a 'power role' per se? Is it not a no-brainer? And do you really think it matters whether I personally join this wagon or not? I have made quite clear that I have a town read on Feysal. Nonetheless, if this is not a case of player or mod error, we have two players claiming contradicting information.

My problem is the way you stated it was "well, I'll do this, but I don't really wanna..." You set yourself up to distance as far from it as possible. I find people who undermine their own positions scummy.

[LimMePls]

Not voting - 4 - Feysal, Enigma, Sathoris, PeregrineV

THESE PEOPLE ARE DOING IT WRONG. VOTE PLEASE.

PeregrineV replaced DP, right? I'm fine with that wagon too.

[Sathoris]

Not voting - 4 - Feysal, Enigma, Sathoris, PeregrineV

THESE PEOPLE ARE DOING IT WRONG. VOTE PLEASE.

PeregrineV replaced DP, right? I'm fine with that wagon too.

I'm probably gonna vote Feysal, but you think I might hear his defence first before I vote him?

[The Fonz]

I'm trying to work out what your actual problem is here. Do you not think you should always lynch in non-lylo situations where two players claim contradicting role information, especially when neither is a 'power role' per se? Is it not a no-brainer? And do you really think it matters whether I personally join this wagon or not? I have made quite clear that I have a town read on Feysal. Nonetheless, if this is not a case of player or mod error, we have two players claiming contradicting information.

My problem is the way you stated it was "well, I'll do this, but I don't really wanna..." You set yourself up to distance as far from it as possible. I find people who undermine their own positions scummy.

No, the way I stated it was that the town has essentially no choice, which is correct. If we have what we appear to have, it's effectively the same as a claimed cop investigation, or a counterclaim of a role where it is known there's only one. What I do want to do is absolutely ensure that that

is

what we're dealing with, before we commit to a lynch.

What I don't want to see is a boatload of 'Well why would scum sacrifice themselves like that?' WIFOM with regard to smargaret tomorrow if Feysal flips town. The current theory I'm running over is actually that Smarg is scum, and her PM doesn't contradict Feysal's, but she's convinced he's rival scum regardless and wants to ensure he goes down.

A question: would you be attacking me in the same way if I'd described it as a 'No-brainer' rather than 'having no choice?'

[LimMePls]

Probably not. The way you made your argument seemed very "well, I guess we just have to do this...", which looks like trying to duck responsibility for your actions. Phrased as "this is the clearly best choice, so it's what I want to do" would probably not have bothered me as much.

[smargaret]

And in that case I can just kill him at night. But since I'm not rival scum and have no nk, I have to take care of this during the day.

[The Fonz]

Doesn't necessarily work like that. Scum also want to get rid of power roles, etc. Also, you might be getting outvoted in your QT.

However, I will say that the fact that you don't back off from the notion that what you claim about your pm has to make him scum with no wriggle room for if he flips town speaks in your favor.

@LMP: Fair enough, though it just contributes to my growing sense of frustration that I feel like everything I say is being attacked based on semantics, rather than intent. "This is the only choice" and "This is by far and away the best choice" are to my mind identical, and I again don't like the attack on the basis of something I might, possibly, do in the future, when in fact I have never had any intention of doing as such: My explanation then will be, as it is now, that when someone claims someone is 100% scum based on role information, lynching them is always the only reasonable course of action for a town to take, save for perhaps the scenario where it's a PR counterclaim and it's possible to work out which is which quickly.

[LimMePls]

Fonz: I don't think it's semantic. One way of saying things leaves the door open to "aww schucks, I was wrong, but we had to, so don't blame me" and the other is willing to accept responsibility for the decision. IMO one of these is scummy, and your post was the scummier of the two. That you now claim you meant it the second way doesn't change that you said it the first.

This game is stalling hardcore. I repeat again that those not voting are absolutely doing it wrong.

[The Fonz]

I don't claim I meant it in the second way. I'm saying the two things are basically synonymous. No choice and only one reasonable option are the same thing. You're suggesting I'm leaving the door open to saying the kind of thing I would never ever say.

[The Fonz]

Actually, since it now seems to me YOU might be leaving the door open for something scummy here:

Tell me this, if smargaret continues to claim Feysal is definitely scum, Feysal doesn't change his story, we lynch Feysal and he flips town: would you definitely lynch smarg or not in that situation?

[LimMePls]

Yes. The difference is that I stand by my decision firmly, not wishy washy "oh well, I had no choice". We always have choices. If you don't believe Feysal will flip scum, then you can CHOOSE to not lynch him. You are not being "forced" to. And by trying to paint it as "we have no choice" you are setting yourself up to "wash your hands of it" if the flip doesn't go your way. THAT is what I have a problem with. When the flip doesn't go the way I expect it to, I'm perfectly ready and willing to accept that I made a choice, not go "well shucks, we didn't have any alternatives".

[PeregrineV]

Not voting - 4 - Feysal, Enigma, Sathoris, PeregrineV

THESE PEOPLE ARE DOING IT WRONG. VOTE PLEASE.

PeregrineV replaced DP, right? I'm fine with that wagon too.

I think Sathoris said it also, but I'd like to hear Feysal respond to my questions, smargarets questions, and any others people might have. I think it makes the most sense to hear what he has to say, then vote how we want.

[LimMePls]

I think Sathoris said it also, but I'd like to hear Feysal respond to my questions, smargarets questions, and any others people might have. I think it makes the most sense to hear what he has to say, then vote how we want.

And I think sitting around with our thumbs up our butts letting one player bottleneck the whole game is anti-town.

[LimMePls]

For that matter,

@MOD:

It's been 4 days since Feysal's last post. Before that he was on a long V/LA and by my count he's been prodded 4 times. Worst of all, he has spent ALL of days 2, 3, and 4 not voting (go look at the vote counts, I'm not exaggerating on this). Maybe its time to consider a forced replacement?

@Feysal: I know you're probably gonna take this personally and flip out like you did in [redacted], but there is nothing personal about this. I just want the game to move at a decent pace, and you seem disinterested in playing.