The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[YosFlavouredCayke]

I would not be willing to lynch UB today, at least not without a much better case for his scumminess.

I'm deeply frustrated here, and I feel like I'm spinning my wheels. At this point, out of the 3 wagons I've really pushed for this game, I still don't know the alignment of any of the people I attacked, I don't know if I was right or wrong about any of them. I could be wrong about everything this game, and never know it. What we need to do is find and lynch a scum here, today, so we can start to put some pieces togehter. The town has been so divided, in so many emotional fights, and if I just knew the identity of one scum for sure, I really suspect that the identity of the others will become obvious. So, no, I'm not willing to accept a policy lynch on UB, just because he might be unpredictable in endgame, Balam; unless we catch a scum now, I'm not that optimistic about the town's odds of lasting until endgame.

On the other hand, the case you make on Fate is significantly more convincing. I'm curious, Balam; it seems a little odd. Can you explain why you would make what looks like a really strong case against Fate being scum, and FOS him, while voting for UB primarily for erratic behavior?

[Lord Fonzi]

Smarg- thanks, my bad.

Yos, you really just put a lot of words and emotion into posting what is essentially "No policy lynch today; we need to hit scum."

Vote: FD

I was hoping Gurgi would show up today so that we could be sure we were on the same page, but he hasn't yet, here or in our QT, so I guess it's time to put my money where my mouth is.

I can see FD as scum with FES: As I noted, the scum games CES supplied show a pattern of attacking a partner consistently, but jumping off to lynch townies later in days. I can also see them as scum without: this would suggest derailing of the D1 FD wagon by partners. I need to go back and look at who that is.

[Lord Fonzi]

Quick scan reveals the 'derailers' were dead town GM and townread UB. That gives me pause.

[Frogito Ergo Sum]

We were around at the time, but we weren't particularly motivated to get a proper post up.

But motivated enough to hammer? lol.

Uh, yeah? Posting 2 ascii hammers and a vote doesn't take a whole lot of mental effort.

Did you notice that Gummybear offered to hammer itself?

Yes, and I had mentioned a couple of times that I thought Gummy's whole reaction to being at L-1 looked town. I'm assuming you're bringing this up in this case though because you're trying to say a you-scum could have just sat back and waited for the self-hammer. But like you said before the deadline was like 7 mins away and Gummy was nowhere in sight - kinda hard to self-hammer in that case, so I think what I said there still has some validity to it.

And you don't think a failure to self-hammer would've looked damning? Mescum would've stayed the hell away - either Gummybear does as promised or there's a no-lynch and a freebie mislynch the next day.

UB is still a town read in our books.

As I noted, the scum games CES supplied show a pattern of attacking a partner consistently, but jumping off to lynch townies later in days.

One game doesn't make a pattern.

Our guess for scum: FD/Spot/PC,

Unvote, vote: FD

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Not a FD lynch! Never! Do not ignore us twice and kill the whole town with your idiocy!

[Profane Confusion]

I may be going overboard with this whole FES hammer thing. But the fact of the matter is, I'm looking back on FES's iso and I really don't think they're scum-hunting. They're just popping into the thread in full-fledged defense mode. I swear their most recent scum list looks like they just took a bunch of names and threw them into a hat. I haven't gotten an air of curiosity about people's alignments from any of their posts.

Final Destination is not the play Today. I think they look town.

Yos, what's confusing you so much? Do you still have a town read on FES?

- Incog

[YosFlavouredCayke]

Well, the biggest thing that's confusing me is, again, why marble was killed.

Also, it's kind of bizzare, but it feels like there has to be at least one scum who has been seriously defended by at least one townie at this point, which is something you rarely see. There whole town has argued inconclusivly about too many people, and it's hard to triangulate without at least one solid fact.

I still think FES is town, yes. I don't have a problem with his scum list; after all, Beaver (your slot), FD, and Spot have been the 3 people I've suspected the most this game.

I could join a FD wagon.

vote:Final Destination

He does seem fairly likely scum here.

[Lord Fonzi]

Hey guys. You won't be seeing much of me for a bit. It's death by finals here.

I'm cautious of the FD wagon. I'd prefer to lynch DaSpot, especially considering his idea of a defense is just screaming no.

[TheButtonmen]

Vote Count:

Final Destination (3): Lord Fonzi, FES, YosFlavouredCayke
Frogito Ergo Sum (2): DaSpot, Profane Confusion
YosFlavouredCayke (1): Unicorn
Unicorn (1): Balam

Not Voting: Copper, Final Destination.

Deadline is May 1st @ 19:00 EST

[Balam]

(AGar)

I don't like that post one bit. AGar, have you always been a man of policy? I don't recall you pushing that kind of stuff in NG 1020 where you were town, and we had a player who you could have easily pushed the same kind of policy on too. Plus, why do this now rather than a previous Day?

I push policy lynches when I feel them to be appropriate. It is rare, but sometimes I feel it to be necessary. Why now? Copper had been giving UB a pass on their posting and we initially agreed that a scum-hydra would be suicidal to do such a thing, but since then the hydra has seem to taken that as an open invitation to let ReaperCharlie take the lead and threadshit away. Equinox also did attempt to make a push at one point on them yesterday, which was met by a general unresponsiveness. Read their posting from D1 on - it devolves into

the worst play I have ever seen on MafiaScum.

They are playing intentionally in a manner that leaves them distinctly unreadable, and have often just floated about waiting for an opportunity to say "LOLHAMMER."

There is no town motivation for the play that we can ascertain whatsoever, but if they are town like Copper says would be likely, they are way too big of a risk to keep around any longer.

---

Balam: Why are you so sure tomorrow's lylo and not today?

Considering TBM had this reviewed, any reviewer with half a brain should have looked at him if he set up a 9:4 and said "LOLNOPE." That's the short version. The long version involved how the push to make 13p games the new mini cap was to give town a better shot as they were sucking it up in 9:3, so 10:3 gives town an extra mislynch (D4 LYLO vs. D3 MYLO), and references several points in the thread that discussed the topic.

---

IOn the other hand, the case you make on Fate is significantly more convincing. I'm curious, Balam; it seems a little odd. Can you explain why you would make what looks like a really strong case against Fate being scum, and FOS him, while voting for UB primarily for erratic behavior?

Policy, as I said. We're pretty damn sold on FD, but I don't want to see UB anywhere near a potential endgame situation.

---

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Not a FD lynch! Never! Do not ignore us twice and kill the whole town with your idiocy!

Care to actually put something more than retarded spam in the thread for once?

---

Final Destination is not the play Today. I think they look town.

We disagree. What is your motivation for their belief to be town?

---

I would move our vote to FD right now, as it's apparent a UB policy lynch is not going to happen, but the Unitard isn't voting them which leaves them open to do as they please and fuck up again without any further input. Consider us willing to vote FD at any time, and FD at an L-1 equivalent.

[Unicorn Brethren]

Ummm... yeah right, AGar.

@Mod: Prods on Final Destination/Balam please. Vote count please. Update the OP please.

No offense, but mod better please.

The day hasn't been open long enough for anyone to be prodded and what do you think the OP is missing?

In other news, we should all be voting who Greymarble suspected. He was dangerously close to being the towniest townie that ever towned. He was also last nights kill. Therefore, we should be following his lead. And who wins the prize?

YosFlavouredCayke,

GummyBear

, and Lord Fonzi.

One down, two to go. NK's are not nearly as much of WIFOM in a game like this. They would be relatively straightforward in choosing their kill targets. They'd kill who suspected them. So let's go with what Greymarble was saying.

I'm not sure who I want to vote for more, YFC or Fonzi. Meh, whatever. Scum=scum.

Unvote; Vote: YosFlavouredCayke

Make it happen sheriff.

Vote Count:

Final Destination (3): Lord Fonzi, FES, YosFlavouredCayke

Frogito Ergo Sum (2): DaSpot, Profane Confusion
YosFlavouredCayke (1): Unicorn
Unicorn (1): Balam

Not Voting: Copper, Final Destination.

Deadline is May 1st @ 19:00 EST

The two guys Greymarble suspected, and the guy on whom the counter-wagon sits.

No thank you.

[Unicorn Brethren]

@Copper: Why are you not voting? What do you think of YFC and Lord Fonzi, given Greymarble's flip?

@Balam: If I tell you that I've observed 4 distinct scumtells from a certain hydra (whether I point them out or not... I like to keep even tells on others hidden, so that I can use them again. It's also the way I spot alts a mile off, usually), will you vote that player slot with me?

@Everyone else: Comments on my post #960 please. Coincidence? Give us your opinion please.

In other words: 1 - 2 - 3 scum on the wagon? Why not?

[Final Destination]

Unvote:

When AGM gets on, don't know if it will be today, but I'll explain why for this vote switch I'm thinking of.

Spoiler: Preview

UB is clearly town, not unreadable, but town.
Balam burns his town read like fire.
Voting Dynamics suggest something shady

[Profane Confusion]

So people UB thinks are scum/worth lynching, according to today's posts only:

YFC
Lord Fonzi
Copper
FD
FES

UB, are your heads communicating at all? Did you realize you have more scum reads than non-scum reads? Do you even have town reads at this point?

UB, please respond to this.

-smarg

[Unicorn Brethren]

Oops. daspot can be swung too, if you wanna get down to it.

[Copper]

We've been cooking up a fairly brash move here. This is something that has been fueling intense argument amidst the heads, so you'll pardon the delayed response. First, a bit of history:

Balam voted Untrod Stranger in post 303 with the rationale being, essentially, US was being unfair to FES,

All that Frogito has done is wait for bandwagons to grow just big enough to hop on unceremoniously.

Bad.

feeling off,

...I don't like the feel of this post. Specifically, the questions.

and making a mathematical error in his attacks,

Ladies and gentlemen, this is why WE MAKE SPREADSHEETS

Fair enough. There's nothing particularly noteworthy here when taken alone. At this point YosCayke & FES were vying for the top spot in votes. Immediately after this post, US gains some serious momentum and completely overtakes the rest of the wagons for a lynch on the very next page (Lord Fonzi, YosCayke, and UB help finish the job).

Balam, during the start of D2, was quick to vote FES on the back of misrepresentation on FES' part. Fair enough. Again, Balam seems quite in the right here. This doesn't come across as shady as Balam was on record of being sketchy with FES. In fact, Balam makes it pretty clear that FES is a priority. Not only do they literally say that, but the flow of their posts suggests that as well.

Here's where it starts to get interesting. Balam begins moving their vote around some, but eventually landing back on FES here, acknowledging that they're putting him at L-1. In the very next post, by the very same head, not seven hours later, Balam jumps right back off the wagon and encourages a quick push against GummyBear. The same FES that had been a consistent scumread throughout Balam's history. The only thing that seemingly changes in the interim is UB's unvoting of FES.

My impression is that there's not enough pushing off the Frogito Ergo Sum wagon for this to be a wagon on scum. There's YosFlavouredCayke's push against you, but I have a difficult time wrapping YosFlavouredCayke-scum around my head, so no dice there either. While I dislike Frogito Ergo Sum's play, the thread feels... I don't know, complacent? I can't think of another way to describe it. Yeah, we're all tired and want a flip, but I really feel this isn't an environment conducive to lynching scum. It's too lazy.

---

Now, it's easy to sit here and say Balam was wrong about US and Gummy and, therefore, is scummy, but that's not the whole story here. There were two very strong wagons made against FES in both days. Balam is on record as having a scum read (or, at least, not particularly liking) FES consistently throughout the game. And, yet, when it came time for FES to eat the rope on two separate occasions, Balam has managed to play a big part in subverting that.

I mentioned earlier that there was a bit of argument among our heads. Well, the argument centered around what Balam would do to start today. We ultimately ended up waiting for Balam to post, but the argument centered around what they would do. FES has, apparently, become a full fledged townread for Balam (even though they have yet to clarify this in either way post-revelation), because they've started off the day with a jab at FD for attacking FES, and they've given a vote for UB. We contend that Balam is, in fact, using FES for one of two purposes: Either FES is a partner to Balam that needs assistance in getting out of tricky lynch situations, or FES is being protected by a Balam hoping that FES will be lynched over their last minute objections.

Vote: Balam

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

GOD FUCKING DAMMIT!

COPPER: GET YOUR ASS OFF OF BALAM.

WE ARE LYNCH FES TODAY.

SCUM IS:

LORD FONZI
FES
YOSCAYKE

WE LYNCH THEM ONE AT THE TIME SO HOW ABOUT WE TAKE CARE OF ACTIVE LURK SCUM EH?

AND UB.

I KNOW YOU HAVE CONFIDENCE.

WITH 6 HEADS PUT TOGETHER HO WOULDN'T BE?

BUT DUDE.

WHATEVER SUPERSCUM TELLS YOU SITTING ON.

REVEAL THEM.

Y'SEE I KNOW AT LEAST WE CAN AGREE THAT YOSCAYKE OR FES OR BOTH ARE SCUM.

THIS GAME HAS BEEN A SHIT FEST. WE HAVE TO LYNCH SCUM

TODAY

!!!

I KNOW YOU WANT TO SAVE IT FOR YOUR META BUT...

RIGHT NOW THERE IS A GAME. A GAME YOU ARE PLAYING. A GAME YOU WANT TO WIN.

IF YOU ARE IN FACT TOWN, AND HAVE SOMETHING THAT CAN CRACK THIS GAME WIDE OPEN... WELL LETS FUCKING SEE IT!

NOW...

CAN WE LYNCH FES PLEASE? IF NOT WHERE IN THE HELL IS THE GODLIKE PROOF THAT THEY ARE TOWN?

THAT QUESTION IS FOR EVERYONE EXCEPT FES.

THEY HAD THEIR CHANCE. AND THEY BLEW IT. TIME AFTER TIME.

NO MORE.

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

BALAM IS TOWN

[Balam]

RayMotherFuckingFrost in the hizouuuuuse.

I'm going to give my take on this game: it's been filled with easy swings. Too many of them. The game swung to Untrod from the early FES suspicion, then it swung to gummybear (I admit that we had a hand in both: not the point I'm getting at here), and now it's going to FES early in the day to FD after AGar's post.

The annoying thing about this pattern is partially the fact that the VCs give a grand total of absolute shit when it comes to reading any of you. The other part is the fact we contributed to the lynch wagons, and the votes surrounding our pushes feel anywhere from sincerity (YFC) to coattailing (spot), but these votes are in of themselves not strong enough to give me a feeling of alignment.

This game has me second guessing almost all my freaking reads. I'm not entirely certain about the feeling from AGar and Equinox, but I find the ease with which profaneconfusion switches to FES off considering these posts from Incog. Compare and Contrast. I generally don't like suspecting my MS-idol (heh ), but I feel certain in my suspicion here: the :quickswitch: of his stance is really unbecoming, and he still doesn't even want to lynch FES, just wants a claim. This kind of posting doesn't feel right: "lol, claim nao, not really wanting lynch tho."

I especially don't like the whole "I feel you squirmed out without a claim" when Incog doesn't go on to point out who, if anybody, helped him "squirm" out. Just feels like an attempt to mudsling instead of actually analyzing (contrast to copper above, even though copper's got the wrong person, it's still town posting).

Copper: FES isn't a town read. We just can't decide if the scummy/towny play of those surrounding him indicates that he's town or scum.

At this point, I don't approve of a UB quicklynch. Instead, I approve of

demanding

a case on who they think are scum that is thought out, not bull shit, and in a post that contains a minimum of threadshit / bullshit. I'd also like it if they elaborated on why they've been playing in a deliberately shitty manner this entire fucking game, but I think that demanding that too would stress their ability to not be douches in their posting.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

@Balam: If I tell you that I've observed 4 distinct scumtells from a certain hydra (whether I point them out or not... I like to keep even tells on others hidden, so that I can use them again. It's also the way I spot alts a mile off, usually), will you vote that player slot with me?

Is this ReaperCharlie? If it is, to hell with your secret scum tells.

Would I be correct in assuming that you'd like us to vote YosFlavouredCayke?

In the very next post, by the very same head, not seven hours later, Balam jumps right back off the wagon and encourages a quick push against GummyBear. The same FES that had been a consistent scumread throughout Balam's history. The only thing that seemingly changes in the interim is UB's unvoting of FES.

The move away from Frogito Ergo Sum was Equinox's (my) move. I saw that the Frogito Ergo Sum wagon had stalled, and I felt something was wrong there. My reasoning behind this is as follows: There had been talk for most of the day about Frogito Ergo Sum playing scummy. We thought he was scum, too. I expected a lot more coordinated pushing on or off the Frogito Ergo Sum wagon, whether it be scum bussing the lurky Frogito Ergo Sum out of the game or scum protecting Frogito Ergo Sum by pushing a different wagon. You can say, "There was a DaSpotthatkillsu wagon!" No, that wagon was too controversial to work in this scenario.

The change that led me to move off the Frogito Ergo Sum wagon was GummyBear's vote, not Unicorn Brethren's unvote. Unicorn Brethren only unvoted because they wanted to take control of the hammer; if they had some other reason, then they didn't state it. ("lol we're second-guessing," my ass.) For all intents and purposes, they were on Frogito Ergo Sum. GummyBear's vote and the reasoning posted behind that vote were scummy. I've already explained why yesterday.

tl;dr - I didn't see the Frogito Ergo Sum wagon as a wagon on scum. AGar and RayFrost agreed.

The allegation that we did not clarify our read on Frogito Ergo Sum is incorrect. I did so when I ran up GummyBear.

And, yet, when it came time for FES to eat the rope on two separate occasions, Balam has managed to play a big part in subverting that.

As I recall, I stopped it only once. If you can point out any other instances, that'd be great.

---

Let me explain a bit about AGar's push against Final Destination.

Yesterday, Final Destination pushed Frogito Ergo Sum and demanded that they be lynched, to the point where Final Destination claimed they would not add anything else until this lynch occurred. When I voted GummyBear for their "It's one wagon or the other!" vote, Final Destination hopped on, and the wagon was pushed to lynch.

Initially, I thought that was just Fate being Fate. However, we've thought this a bit, and we've come to the conclusion that their play has been too passive for the two heads that occupy that hydra. AGar also noted things about the Final Destination and YosFlavouredCayke interaction that bothered him, but he didn't expand on that with us, and I haven't had the chance to look -- so I'll have to leave that part to him when he gets back.

As for Unicorn Brethren, that's not a policy lynch. At least, it isn't for me. I've wanted them dead since yesterday, but everyone just went on their merry way as if my vote did not happen. Yeah, thanks for waiting until

today

to tell us we're off our rockers, despite most of you raging your heads off yesterday that they were playing like idiots and then, for some inane reason, refusing to lynch them off the face of the planet.

As for playing like idiots, that is why I believe them to be scum. On Day 1, they started off somewhat okay, and then their play went straight down the chute when people gave them the pass to be a 6-headed menace of a disaster. On Day 2, they continued that trolling behavior, going for weeks without any helpful contributions. Suddenly, today, they've decided they want to play again. SCUM BENEFIT FROM THIS SORT OF PLAY. TOWN DOES NOT.

This rush to defend Unicorn Brethren today pisses me off, and I'm willing to bet good money it stinks.

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

^^^ ..... HONESTLY WHAT MAKES THEM EVEN SLIGHTLY TOWNIE? WHAT?

VV SHUT UP YOSCAYKE YOU'RE NEXT.

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

BY THEM I MEAN FES.

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

GEE SURE IS LURKING AROUND HERE

[DaSpotthatkillsu]

OH COME ON.

FRIDAY NIGHT.

I'M FULL OF CAFFEINE.

IT'S THE PLAYERS THAT MAKE THIS GAME BAD

"OHNOES SUMONE IS SPAMMING ALL CAPS STAY AWAY"

AND THEN YOU LYNCH OBV TOWN.

GEE WIZZ IS THIS SOME NEW WAY TO PLAY MAFIA? LOSE LIKE IDIOTS?

I'M NOT GAME.

I'M FUCKING STICKING TO A LYNCH.

NOW LET'S LYNCH FES SCUM.

[YosFlavouredCayke]

GEE WIZZ IS THIS SOME NEW WAY TO PLAY MAFIA? LOSE LIKE IDIOTS?

...

The irony is painful.

Anyway, despite the fact that every time Spot posts it makes me want to him to die, I'm less confident about him at this point. I really want to lynch FD today, and I've got some suspicions about Profane Confusion as well.

I'm tired of crappy compromise lynches, and I'm tired of nobody listening to me. Today we're lynching scum. I don't intend to leave the FD wagon today.