Open 300 - Mafia on Midol (Town Wins!)

[Cyberbob]

my tongue is firmly in cheek so no

[Thor665]

176 - Why is that? I don't know him. Can you give examples?

Nah, it's a gut read off of my experiences playing with him. Go research some of his games and draw your own conclusions.

Well I'm ok with Sudo going, I just believe DH was scummier. Why is that, because of meta, or just a hunch? Why do you believe Nacho will help? I'm confused, you mean to say Sudo is scummy for not being present for the RVS and not voting? Btw I saw Nacho in the boards but he didn't respond.

Nacho's posts are actually showing scumhunting, Sudo's are not, that's why Nacho is more useful even if he is scum because he's actually taking stances.
I mean to say Sudo is scummy for playing in a way which weakens the ability of other players to read Sudo.
...okay, so are you calling Nacho scummy for lurking or are you asking me if I find Nacho scummy for lurking?

258 - Well I don't rely on meta, but I'd like some examples of Crazy doing these things as both alignments. I don't believe Crazy should be left off the hook simply because of meta.

I wasn't aware I'd made any sort of Crzy meta claims, I'd made DH meta claims.

267 - You refer to vi's being statistically town alot. So what? How does that help in reading Crazy for you?

All I'm doing is dismissing a case of "Look at Crazy, he's playing poorly" and I'm pointing out that town plays poorly too, so it doesn't exactly make a brilliant case that all should follow, now does it?

349 - Well I asked for reads and I stuck Crazy in there, big deal. Glad it made you laugh though.

So you think this should be meaningless to me?

[Sudo_Nym]

Okay, so I'm back, sorta. Work was crazy these last few days- I thought I'd be through it by Friday; instead it lasted until midnight last night. I'm exhausted still, but I'm alive now, and getting started on rereading.

[singersigner]

Votecount 2.0

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to lynch.

Punkin (0):
Cyberbob (0):
AGar (0):
Nachomamma8 (3): SocioPath, Sudo_Nym, Ranmaru
Oman (0):
Papa Zito (0):
SocioPath (0):
Sudo_Nym (7): Cyberbob, Thor665, chkflip, LlamaFluff, AGar, Oman, Cogito Ergo Sum
Zorblag (0):
Thor665 (0):
Plum (0):
Fate (0):
chkflip (2): Nobody Special, Punkin
Cogito Ergo Sum (0):
Llamafluff (0):
Nikanor (1): Nachomamma8
Crazy (1): Nikanor
Nobody Special (4): Crazy, Papa Zito, Fate, Plum

Not voting (0):

V/LA: AGar 4/15-4/17
V/LA: Nobody Special 4/14-4/17

I've "bumped" Papa Zito, Plum, and LlamaFluff.

Nikanor's replacement is pending.

Deadline is April 21st, 2011 at 7pm PST.

[LlamaFluff]

Apparently mod missed my V/LA post where I was gone until at least today.

Oops (I didn't penalize any of you due to the weekend). If you could bold it next time, it would be much appreciated. <3

I could do a Sudo or NS lynch here, Sudo with a large prefrence, this is both based on who is on the wagons, and my strength of reads.

@Sudo - Can you make a nice case on Nacho here? Last you mentioned him Nacho was somewhat good posting and that was about it. Who else is scum here?

[Crazy]

NS is also scum. The DHvote was just a bandwagon vote.

Really? :O Then why did you later follow up your DH vote with this?

Why isn't DH dead yet?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Because that's how I roll.

CES: I know it's not your habit to go into detail over your votes ect, but I have seen enough of your play to have realized that you are more often then not pretty spot on, If I ask you nice, would you give a bit of content on your thought process, pretty please...

1) I'm a mediocre scumhunter at best.
2) I got the impression that Ythill got most of what I'm seeing, so you should ask him.

[Thor665]

Re-read chk. About the worst I can say for him is the point he's calling some players null reads and some null leaning scum and he votes for one he called null. About the best is his catch on Sudo. If I've called him town in this game I'll ease back to null leaning town. I'm not excited/sold by a wagon on him particularly.

@Socio - read on Cyberbob and chk?

[Nachomamma8]

Hmm... I'll get a post in here tomorrow.

[Ranmaru]

@Thor:
Well I don't trust your gut read. Can you demonstrate why your gut reads him in that way?


Hmmm, I agree, now that I ISO'd both Sudo and Nacho. Nacho has 10 posts, and Sudo has 16 so far. I see a little more scumhunting from Nacho, and shift of suspicion from Sudo, and explanations such as "I didn't feel those things were worth my opinions". I wonder what analysis he DID bring in. (Since he says that he wouldn't want to drown the town with worthless analysis, so what IS worth analysing for him? What IS he doing for the town?)

No, not at all.

Oh, ok. Well this is the first time I see you state a read on Crazy:

@CES/Thor/Cyberbob

Why Sudo still?

Um...because up until just a few hours ago when two people unvoted while I wasn't around he was still the biggest wagon and I still find him scummy and want him lynched and was even trying to get Oman onto it? Besides, you're on a wagon with absentee Nikanor and chkflp - it can't be

that

stellar. Also, looking at the other big wagons we have Crazy (who I have a slight town read on) and Nacho who I have a town read on thanks to DH that he is totally not taking advantage of by being awesome and town ). I'm not getting behind either of those terrible things. I'd rather lynch Socio or policy lynch Zorblag or Nikanor than hop on them.

@Llama - Is the AGar case something more than his exactitude (pedanticness?) towards Crazy's gamestyle? Because that's pretty normal AGar play in my experience. It's also not that far distant from why I'm rampaging on Sudo (though at least Crazy chooses to tell his attacker to sod off rather than Sudo's soft sell 'ignore and hope it goes away' method)

Also, he's clearly not unique in disliking Crazy's play

- what's your read on the rest of the wagon and does that have anything to do with your AGar issues?

Why exactly do you have a town read on Crazy? Can you explain the bold please?

Oh, ok. Hmmm, I agree, poor play shouldn't be based on alignment.

No. I was catching up. I don't keep tabs of peoples stances, instead I just respond to each post number in word. I just overlooked your read on crazy earlier, and asked for your stance on him. Take it as you will. Or however that phrase goes.

[Crazy]

Because that's how I roll.

That was a serious question. If you're just wagoning for the fun of it, then why the heck do you back that up with a "Why is DH not dead yet?"

^^I'd like other opinions on this, plz.

[Ranmaru]

Sudo's contributions:

• Punkin vote was RVS.
  
• Describes the Crazy wagon was just an RVS wagon.
  
• Shifts suspicion onto CES. Is correct, yet CES has voted and given more stances than Sudo. (CES stated NS and SUDO are scum, Sudo has only stated that Nacho is scum)
  
• Demonstrates that DH's reads are weak.
  
• Comfortable with RV after such a long time, and is ok with solely commenting on things. (This could be looked upon as fake contributing)
  
• Was prepared to vote DH, but not at l-2. Wonder why Sudo didn't vote when people unvoted DH after replacing.
  
• Mentions he doesn't want to post worthless reads
  
• States that he tends to play slowly, but hasn't done anything to make up for what he lacks.
  
• Votes Nacho [His only non-rvs vote] only when asked about his read on him. Why didn't he vote Nacho when Fate unvoted?

@

Questions to Sudo:

What analysis have you stirred up by now? Hopefully you have observed something.
If you have worthless reads, why not wagon along with others [that you believe are townie] to at least help the town in some way?
How do you find scum with your playstyle? What do you believe are the pro's and con's to it? Help us understand so we can work together.
Why did you vote Nacho when Llama asked you about him? Right after DH replaced out, Fate unvoted. Why not vote at that time?
What are your reads on Thor/Llama/Crazy/Punkin/Cyberbob? Who would you lynch after Nacho?

Here is where I extract his contributions from, everything else didn't matter:

Spoiler:

vote: Punkin Excuse me for needing an avatar check to recognize the hydra. I would have expected a Star Wars reference myself. Maybe something to do with a mentor figure of some kind.

Sudo may not have made any super impact yet, but CES hasn't, either. The fact that you'd try to call me out for not being super serious in RVS, while be fine with CES doing the same, speaks of tunnel vision, at the very best. I won't bother quoting the rest of your post, largely because it's ridiculous. "Shamefail," seriously? The whole thing reads like you're trying to make the facts fit the circumstances, rather than the other way around, and it's not a good place to be.

Except all your reads are weak, at best, which certainly qualifies to the point I'm making- that you're grasping at straws. Your Fate read may as well be based on air; the PZ case is even worse. You claim that it was an "Obvious Setup to Catch Scum", which based on town reaction, it was not. Jumping on Troll for a basic Lynch All Lurkers post in RVS is super weak. And Socio had a number of good reasons why you're scummy, even if he didn't switch his vote until later. Hell, I find you scummy, and I'm not currently voting you, either. I fail to see how that affects the nature of the posts.


Yep. It's an RV, but I've not been too motivated to vote for anyone else, yet. I'd have voted DH, if he hadn't to L-2 so quickly. I'll UNVOTE: , if that helps you. I've been posting the best way I know how, which is to comment on what I see. Sometimes it's more useful than others. And technically, defending myself and slinging mud was largely the same target, so it's closer to two and half things. But in any event, I've yet to see anything else that sticks out enough to be worth commenting on, to be honest. It's still early in the game, and DH was the noise. Now it's time to look for a new signal, of course.

Suspecting a person, and lynching a person are two different things. I was 100% behind the wagon for sure, and you can put that on the record. But there was still discussion going on, and I wasn't prepared to put him at L-1 so early, while talks are still occuring. By no means do I believe in dragging a game out, but it is still very early in what is promising to be a long one. The replace request has muddied the waters, I admit, but it doesn't change my opinion that the slot is scummy, and whoever replaces DH will be tainted by his actions. Like I said, though, there are town tells, and the replacement certainly isn't condemned.

And for going on a limb and commenting at random- your sarcasm aside, wouldn't commenting on a thing I have no opinion on just make things less clear, by providing useless data? As town, it's my imperative to make sure that communication is clear and effective, is it not?

Reads are developed by making meaningful analysis. Meaningful analysis requires meaningful posts. Analyzing worthless posts generates worthless reads. Worthless reads do nothing to help the town. Why would you want me to generate worthless content? Why would you want anyone to generate worthless content? Because it seems like an utter waste of time.

Because the replacement deserves a chance to talk. And I'm willing to believe that others think that DH is genuinely town, given his request for replacement. Here's a question: why are you trying to dictate my play? I do as I think logical, which may or may not always be the case. I tend to play very slowly, and deliberately, and I don't believe that it's a bad style, even if it lacks the aggression that people seem to demand.

Still scummy, to the point where I'll vote: Nachomamma, now that it isn't at L-1. Nachomamma's been alright so far, though, so I reserve the right to change my mind on the basis of goodposting from Nacho.

[Crazy]

Ranmaru, what do you think of what I just mentioned about CES?

[Ranmaru]

I think you found a contradiction within CES's motives.

[Thor665]

@Thor:
Well I don't trust your gut read. Can you demonstrate why your gut reads him in that way?

Ask me this again if you intend to start voting him - until then I don't really see the value in starting a chk discussion since the wagon on him is currently weak, and the wagon of whom I'd like to lynch (Sudo) still needs more consideration and attention.
As long as we're mentioning Sudo - active lurk anyone? Pretty much at this point a replace out is the only thing that would make me not want to lynch that slot today. Even that might not quite do it, but I'm willing to toss the idea out as I wouldn't mind having a contributing slot as opposed to a black hole wearing glasses.

No, not at all.

It's like you ate trying to make it hard to have the conversation. Here's what I am (pretty sure) is the question this is "answering";
"...okay, so are you calling Nacho scummy for lurking or are you asking me if I find Nacho scummy for lurking?"
Yeah...not really an answer there. Though you're starting to reverse on your Nacho angle which is making me twitch less about the soft-sell I was picking up. You've also functionally shot your own question in the foot - so we'll just wait and see if it ever hobbles back I suppose. Work on your communication skills though, i find it helps to be as clear as possible.

Why exactly do you have a town read on Crazy? Can you explain the bold please?

I have a town read because he looks very earnest and active in his scumhunting, and none of his manuevers thus far look like they intrinsically benefit scum.
The bold was a question to Llama. Llama was calling out AGar for being after Crazy for his playstyle - the thing is there was a wagon with multiple other players who were also citing "Crazy play bad, Crazy scumz!!!" and Llama didn't seem to be after them. I wanted to know why AGar was the worst of the bunch...now you have me wondering if he answered this. I'll have to check.
None of that was meta defending Crazy though - to get back to your initial commentary.

[Thor665]

Because that's how I roll.

That was a serious question. If you're just wagoning for the fun of it, then why the heck do you back that up with a "Why is DH not dead yet?"

^^I'd like other opinions on this, plz.

I see it as mostly further proof that the Crazy wagon suxx0rz the big one.

In a more focused sense I don't see anything CES said as out of line. I can go into this further if you want, though I think it weakens the purpose of you pressuring CES to get too many people commenting on it prior to him weighing in. Still, you have a 2 to 1 seeing it as scummy/questionable right now, so I'd advocate just stick to telling CES I'm the outlier on the bell curve and get the response out of him first. If you don't care, ask again and I'll explain my thoughts.

[Ranmaru]

@Thor:

About that, I was just irritated that Nacho didn't post responses to me. Didn't call nacho scummy for lurking tho.

No, I'd like to see Sudo respond to my 486 first.

Oh ok, please do. Oh ok.

[Ranmaru]

Sup llamapuff. Thoughts?

[LlamaFluff]

@Ran - You have to be insane here if you think that Nacho could possibly be scum given the way he has come into the game. There has been lots of interest in four people to the extent that they have had a legitimate chance of being lynched; Sudo, NS, Crazy and DH/Nacho. What Nacho has done upon entering the game is actually freely scumhunt instead of moving into survival tactic in any way. Why would scum come into the game and try and take down chck who quite a few of the more power players in the game has decided is leaning town, or at least are conflicted on? If he wanted to just look for life, he could have followed what was already there, yet he tried to quietly (key word) blaze his own trail.

Doing that shows motive of trying to find scum instead of either fiegn it or just not be lynched. He even has a back and forth with one of the big names (NS) and doesnt move his vote there, choosing to keep it one a player who is really not going to get lynched. Now he moves it to Nik, which on a side eis a comepletly decent vote since Nik lurks like no other when he is scum, instead of bandwagoning, again. This is not the behavior of someone who is scum, but someone who is town and trying to catch scum. Plus he is not lurking that badly, Nacho-scum is much quieter than Nacho-town. I just see lack of scum motives from that slot, and had a netural to leaning town read on DH given the quick wagon formation that I really never followed well, which tends to be a town getting wagoned flag.

You dont give a case on him really either, you just accuse him of OMGUSing chck. When he replaced in it would be kinda hard not to OMGUS someone since half the game was pushing on him. Plus I do see (some) of what I think he is getting at in those quotes, especially the first one which is all kinds of nasty.

Sudo is doing as close to nothing as possible. He hasnt really built much of a DH case, but made every move possible to stay off the wagon early, citing high vote fears, which really arent anything to be afraid of if you make it well known that you are putting someone at a high number of votes, especially if you are going to snap the vote as soon as they lose a few, which apparently was his plan. Apart from that, what has he done? Commented on Zorb lurking? Well he has flaked so point there is gone... think he has made a few other small comments, but for the most part he is making attempts to defend himself and his playstyle instead of actually trying to catch scum, the exact opposite of what Nacho is doing here.

So yeah, Nacho is town. Sudo is scum. Move your vote accordingly.

[LlamaFluff]

Also its fluff, not puff. If you could not constantly use the term "fluff post" too I would be happy since it always makes me pause thinking its about me.

[Ranmaru]

Psst. Look at my 486^. I'll decide after Sudo replies, if he does. ;o

What do you think of my 486?

awww. ;-; can I call you puff? Oh, I'm sorry. Hmmm, I dunno. I don't know any other terms for 'fluff'. If you can suggest an alternative, than maybe. If not, no go.

[LlamaFluff]

Psst. Look at my 486^. I'll decide after Sudo replies, if he does. ;o

What do you think of my 486?

My job is to slant everything regardless of alignment (according to farside), so if I can get you to hop early, im going to. Your 486 is very information heavy and seems to just beat around the bush a bit too much for me. I really dont like doing that unless im trying to trap someone into showing they are scum like I was with AGar earlier. Just get to the point more.

[Ranmaru]

Nah. I'd like to have answers before hopping on anything. [You know, I'm trying to question Sudo before I make an analysis here] Scum have info, we don't. I tried to make it as concise as possible, and I even put the quotes in spoilers. :3 (I hate using spoilers though, be glad I didn't force you to look at the quotes ;o )

Also I think Agar is town.

[LlamaFluff]

Nah. I'd like to have answers before hopping on anything. [You know, I'm trying to question Sudo before I make an analysis here] Scum have info, we don't. I tried to make it as concise as possible, and I even put the quotes in spoilers. :3 (I hate using spoilers though, be glad I didn't force you to look at the quotes ;o )

Also I think Agar is town.

Fair enough, but you dont have to wait for Sudo to comment on the two big paragraphs I put up about Nacho.

[Ranmaru]

Yeah, I'll comment on it soon. : D