Open 289 - Hard Boiled - Game over.

[Ythan]

Hi everyone. Dropping a post here for egosearch, I'll stop back by in a bit.

[Ythan]

Hi, everyone. Time for some obligatory opening questions--

What time zone are you in?

EST.

RVS or RQS? Why?

I don't care. While you're doing that I have plenty of posts to look at to do my own thing.

What is your experience level with Mafia?

Sufficient.

How active can we expect you to be?

Hahahahaha.

[Ythan]

@Krazy: I've never played a game with Ythan. Why should we be policy lynching him?

Irrelevant reasons. I hurt his feelings in another game.

[Ythan]

Irrelevant reasons. I hurt his feelings in another game.

Not supposed to talk about ongoing games Ythan. tsk tsk

Then don't bring it up in the first place.

Mod, is it possible that

these

spoilers are often disallowed because they may effectively hide text but

Spoiler:

these

are not because they draw more attention, if anything? They're both called spoiler tags.

Yeah, probably. Rule day/6 has been edited as such.

[Ythan]

I'm not Ythan's best friend, for sure, but I don't particularly dislike him either.

As for the RVS, he popped in, answered the RQS, and bolted. No vote. No commentary on anyone else's votes. Absolutely no position to be held accountable for at any point in the rest of the game. Yes, I think that's scummy, in addition to being really uninformative for the town.

We're on page three, and it was even earlier that you started with this shit. Not everyone is on so often.

Well, I'm going to have to eat my words in saying Ythan posts a lot...

mod: prod Ythan?

Oh wait, nevermind, it's 72 hours this game not 48, my bad.

Really, Krazy, there are plenty of players for you to talk about in this game. You don't need to invest all of your energy on premature prod calls. If you ever thought you had a hope of getting me policy lynched, I'll put it lightly and say you're not doing anything to help it.

Wow shit you're right, TBL has made 1 post this whole game?!?!?

And Quaroth has never done anything since RV?

Game full of f'n lurkers.

But yes, I was focused on Ythan because he has 0 content AND no RV, although really TBL's solo vote no content isn't really better at all.

Trying to back out of the rvs tunneling now isn't really going so well either. If you were starting from the point of "Who isn't participating", rather than "What is Ythan doing", it would not have taken you this long.

[Ythan]

If you'll wait just a moment you'll see, provided any of the three players I am iso'ing today raise my suspicions. Or you can focus exclusively on me while looking for relational tells, which by your own admission you're not finding.

[Ythan]

As it turns out, the quarter of the players whom I have committed myself to read today haven't aroused my suspicion. If I'm still in a Mafia mood when I've caught up all over the site I may read some more players tonight.

[Ythan]

....................

....................

Well when your mafia mood returns.

vote Ythan

I read over a quarter of the players in this game in iso for today. Quit tunneling me and do something useful.

[Ythan]

He completely ignored my query about Ythan, which makes him tunneling already if nothing else..

Ironic.

Scum-flailing to appear as badly-written town-flailing or just really bad town-flailing?

Ironic.

I can do this all day. You don't know shit about lurking because you're tunneling me too hard to have room in your head for what words really mean.

[Ythan]

What do you think relational tell means?

[Ythan]

That is not a post that is not in direct reaction to me.

Then you don't know what that term means. It has a specific use on this site that you might not be aware of.

Why do you pop in only when I address other players, Ythan?

Is that an accurate characterization of when I "pop in"? No. I'm having issues with my OS right now and I'll pop in as seldom as I please.

Who is the one tunneling here?

That would be you. If you're attempting to call me on tunneling based on that line preceding this one then you don't know what tunneling is either.

You QQ about me tunneling you then only respond when I start to address other players.

This is still incorrect. You would have saved yourself some text by waiting until I told you that you were mischaracterizing my activity and that you didn't know what tunneling was before getting this far.

What's up with that? What is YOUR take on Umbrage, since apparently you have read their iso and have rich thoughts on the subject?

Do you know what a quarter is? It means one fourth. One fourth is not the same as four fourths, which would be everyone.

[Ythan]

Tunneling is focusing on one player to the exclusion of others, whether or not you have a good reason (you don't).

Lurking is reading a thread without contributing.

I'm not going to read every player in iso right this second just for you. Nor do I have to. If you have a problem with that, go cry about it to someone who thinks I'm obligated to spend more than enough time on this game for the sake of your lack of patience.

[Ythan]

Good news and bad news Krazy. The good news is I'm reading further. Bad news is you're the first player on my list I feel like commenting on.

vote Yhtan

Trust me, this game will be so much better if we get a policy lynch in here right away. I mean, come on, it's Ythan.

Seriously suggested a policy lynch in his first post.

Ok. Since I now realize that explaining my reasoning for a policy lynch would require me to talk about an ongoing game, I will now retract my reasoning for my vote on Ythan as being a policy lynch.

Now my vote on Ythan is because he did not join in RVS and has not voted yet.

Realizes that he's being hypocritical and can't talk about ongoing games either. Comes up with another reason for his first post policy vote. Not participating in RVS (explained in my post) and not casting a vote (equally meaningless).

I like this guy already.

Thanks for sharing. Considering there's so much discussion as to whether Xtoxm was contributing by only answering the questions, what do you make of Ythan only answering the questions and not voting? Are you letting Ythan off the hook because you find him amusing?

Questions a third player on me (specifically) doing something that I'm not the only one doing. This is tunneling. He's not really interested in the behavior, only how he can tie it to me personally.

Do you have a problem with my current vote on Ythan? You have no problem with him not voting? Are you now ignoring both non-votes or being selective?

Attempting to characterize players who criticize his tunneling in the context of his made up reasons for voting.

As for the RVS, he popped in, answered the RQS, and bolted. No vote. No commentary on anyone else's votes. Absolutely no position to be held accountable for at any point in the rest of the game. Yes, I think that's scummy, in addition to being really uninformative for the town.

Made this post right about 24 hours after my previous post and yet attempts to characterize me as lurking. His next two posts are an attempt to have me (and only me) prematurely prodded and realizing that he was in the wrong.

Wow shit you're right, TBL has made 1 post this whole game?!?!?

And Quaroth has never done anything since RV?

Game full of f'n lurkers.

But yes, I was focused on Ythan because he has 0 content AND no RV, although really TBL's solo vote no content isn't really better at all.

Someone first calls him on tunneling and he backpedals to broaden his criticisms. He clearly had not considered the same behavior in anyone else. Tunneling.

....................

....................

Well when your mafia mood returns.

vote Ythan

I have explained my method of reading players. He wants me to put four times as much effort in. Effort that nobody else is replicating at all. Not to say that nobody else is active, everyone's doing their own thing, but he's trying very hard to find a reason to stay on me. Tunneling.

Honestly it is REALLY hard to make sense of Umbrage. He completely ignored my query about Ythan, which makes him tunneling already if nothing else, and although often I have seen CAPSRAGE posts coming from flailing town, Umbrage seems to be taking it to the next level with a relatively early wagon on him.

Even his discussion of other players is based around me.

[Ythan]

I notice that you didn't actually disagree with my assessment of Umbrage either, instead you merely called it ironic. Why don't you kick it up a notch. Am I scummy for saying those "ironic" things? Since you seem to refuse to respond to Umbrage himself, what about my assessment of Umbrage?

I remember your play from the last game. You could be scum. Or you could just be tunneling awfultown again. You're acting the same way. You're certainly anti-town. But I'm not going to pretend the things you are doing are scummy or struggle to hold together a case on you. Because I know how to play Mafia with a head on my shoulders.

[Ythan]

@Ythan thank you for at least calling SOMEONE scummy today.

Thank you for not addressing it.

[Ythan]

Is RVS meaningless, or just not participating it? Why do you break this up into two parts?

They're the two reasons you provided for maintaining your vote on me when you couldn't use policy anymore.

I questioned Umbrage because he chose to characterize you in that way but not comment on your behavior. This read as positioning.

Characterized me in what way exactly?

You're trying to characterize me as tunneling when you haven't posted anything that was not in direct reaction to me this whole game. All I asked you to do was to participate in the game or provide some commentary on any player other than me, something you still have not done.

I'm through pointing out that you're tunneling. It's not like it's something I have to explain more than once. You're not disputing it, you're turning attention to me, I'm satisfied with the status of the accusation.

You yourself just characterized lurking as reading the thread but not participating in it.

I defined it that way, actually. Don't use weasel words.

Yes, the prod attempt was stupid and probably the only good justification for characterizing me as tunneling you have. Next please?

To clarify an earlier point, I can build a case on you if I wish, and if you dispute the case I will support it. But I need not repeat that you're tunneling until I'm blue in the face. I have said my piece. Asking for more because you don't like it is not good play.

As I mentioned, this is true, insofar as in this regard I was partly tunneling. Next?

You

were

not

partly

tunneling, you are entirely tunneling. At this point you're not asking for better evidence, you're asking for more evidence. This is even worse.

This is not tunneling. You said you read four players, but did not provide any commentary for the isos you did read, despite the fact that you apparently cleared them. You chose to read four isos that is apparently not me and not umbrage; excluding yourself and the lurkers, that's basically every active player in the game. But apparently asking you to share any thought on any player is tunneling.

Unfortunately, I said I was reading players, not active players. The rest of this quote chunk falls apart without that.

Very astute, and true, since that was is where my vote is.

Placing a vote on the player you tunnel does not make it any more acceptable.

If there is a player being ignored, then I tend to focus on them to draw them out.

You specifically chose me, and I am not the only player who fit that criteria. Because you're tunneling.

Although there are several players not posting much, some people were at least commenting on Xto. TBL and Quaroth at the time hadn't posted much, but the length of time still hadn't been that great, so I chose you since you also chose not to participate in RVS.

You began before I posted. Chronological error.

Your current criticisms are that I am tunneling. Very good, and as I mentioned, at least partly true.

At least as in anywhere from partly to entirely.

lolwat? You can go the whole game saying jack shit but you can't wait 10 seconds for me to type up my full response?

You made a post recognizing the post but neither addressing it nor intimating that you had more on the way. I'm not going to give you the benefit of the doubt when this is your play so far.

[Ythan]

So are you going to ever address any player other than me or is this just going to be a quote war?

Are you paying any attention you dolt.

[Ythan]

I'm not saying it's scum or town, it just looks odd.

I know I'm not the first to say this, but why bring it up if you don't think it's relevant?

Need to reread the rest of you v Con/you v Snake. It will probably feature this bait issue which at first glance concerns me. I don't like retroactively calling one's suspicious behaviors a town act of baiting.

[Ythan]

So are you going to ever address any player other than me or is this just going to be a quote war?

Are you paying any attention you dolt.

Read your own iso and show me a point where you say the name of a player that is not quoting a post of mine.

As I read through other isos, player by player, I'm going to stop in between each and address the new material in the thread. You are the only other person posting right now. This is not complicated and yet you are doing your best to fail to grasp it.

[Ythan]

I brought up the xotxm thing to see how people would react, let me get a feel for the people here. I really do doubt ConSpiracy's motives in asking me that question, but my vote on him was mainly to see how you reacted to a serious vote early in RVS. Just my little way of getting to know you.

So the reason that you singled out that xtoxm (going to call this guy tom from here on out so I don't have to think about the x's every time I type his name) post was to look for reactions? Why that post? Why the way you did it? I want your thought process going into that comment.

I don't understand why you would immediately assume ConSpiracy had some ulterior motives, as asking questions in early game can only help move the game forward.

Well, my questioning ConSpiracy's motives could only help move the game forward, so what's the problem?

I think Snake's question here was valid, but no answer.

Ooh, quick to judge, are we? I'm voting you because you've contradicted yourself. See above. You seem desperate to stop RVS and get a wagon started.

I don't think this was evident when you placed the vote.

When I voted ConSpiracy, I made sure to let everyone know it was a serious vote. I was setting myself up as bait, and you bit.

I threw out that bit about xtoxm because I wanted to see who would either attack him, or come to his aid. Snake did the latter. Same basic principle with the vote on you.

Two explanatory posts for the xtoxm comment, I want these to be easy to find so I'm including them here. I find it odd that you say you wanted to see who would attack or defend him when you said you didn't find his behavior scummy in the first place. Also, the vote on Con was the same thing? That seemed different. It was an actual attack, wasn't it?

Krazy, leave Ythan alone. Now. Keep your personal disputes out of this thread. I'm not having my game contaminated with your marital disputes. As of yet, I see no reason for a policy lynch. I do not see Ythan as lurking or otherwise not participating, at least not as much as some of the players here. You two better get along or replace out.

Don't mischaracterize this as going both ways. Krazy is the one who started shit in this thread and the one who kept it going.

[Ythan]

I wanted you to take positions, you're taking positions, crisis averted.

I would say that my policy lynch vote on you should make sense by now without having to address the other game, but I know from experience that people can only really understand this by actually talking to you (which truly ironically, my policy lynch vote has apparently given everyone an excuse to not talk to you yet).

If you keep complaining about this nonsense I'm going to keep telling you to cry about it, k?

[Ythan]

Okay, you defined it that way. That changes my comment how?

Different words mean different things. Shocking.

No, Ythan, you are COMPLETELY tunneling. I WAS only partly tunneling. Until you STOP tunneling you will continue to be COMPLETELY tunneling.

Until you can make an intelligent explanation of how I'm tunneling or you're not I'm just going to post this face whenever you make a bare assertion to that effect, k?

Tunnel harder and faster Ythan, please. You might not make it to China in time for tea, otherwise.

I have explained why I continued to focus on you after the initial (mostly) random vote, and it was certainly partly because I know you have time to get into quote wars like this with me but refuse to even say the name of another player in the game unless they are responding to me.

Lol no.

I voted for you before you posted, this isn't the same as focusing on you before you posted.

Except you've been doing nothing but that since your first post. You going to say that's not the truth?

Glad to see you're not willing to give me the benefit of the doubt. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you would address other players other than me, and you STILL haven't done this, claiming that I'm trying to occupy too much of your time, when you refuse to address any other player than me. Honestly there is no evidence right now that you have read a single post in this game that did not have my name as a part of it. And then you mount your entire case against me on the basis that I am tunneling on you, saying I'm the only player that you have found interesting (but you apparently can't be bothered to read Umbrage's posts, only my commentary on them).

I'm going to take this the direction the other game went and just cut through all this nonsense to call you a dumbass if you don't get on track and stop tunneling, Krazy.

[Ythan]

lolumad?

You are contributing nothing to this game. If you play like trash I'm going to call you trash.

[Ythan]

13 - From iamusername. Something about this vote bugs me. RVS of someone with a vote already on them seems strange.

...

16 - This is obviously trying to get a bandwagon going on the most viable person. It's a null tell for me on page one, but at least it gets people talking.

These two comments, in one post, seem to contradict each other. Additionally this is a long ass post with a poor way of referring to the posts in question. Please use quotes, and if you could do so to clarify the points you're still holding onto at this point in the game I would like that.

[Ythan]

So Krazy's case is that I talked to him while I was working my way alphabetical. See how I can sum it up in one sentence instead of making a ton of bullshit posts.

[Ythan]

I'm unconvinced that Krazy is anything more than tunneling awfultown just like the last game we played. I'm going to give him a short while to calm down and address points made against him, particularly those disputing his empty case, because I've seen him play exactly like this as town very recently.

I am most likely to vote Umbrage right now, as he has the most of my outstanding questions, but those were made since his last post so I'm going to abstain for the moment.

[Ythan]

It's a shame that you're astute enough to recognize that your joke of a (former) case is moot but not quite bright enough to see that you're still really dim when it comes to your perception of my play this game. It's almost as if you don't take in anything that I say. But I already overtly insulted you once tonight and that will be enough for now.

[Ythan]

@ Ythan

Though I don't really like the RVS myself, don't you think there has to be one? I have played one game without a RVS and it started very lurky. The RVS starts discussion.

It's how the game naturally starts. Do you think I have a problem with it?

@Ythan: At what point can we expect your thoughts on individual players (aside from Krazy)?

The past.

[Ythan]

TheBigLebowski -> werewolf555?

Fuck.

I'm getting mostly town vibes from the more active players, with the sole exception of Ythan, whose reactions to the assault from Krazy look a bit too complacent for what I would expect from a townie.

I've explained pretty handily why Krazy's case is a load of crap. If you think any part of it should concern me then point it out. I'm not going to worry about his tunneling shitfit. It's not going to go anywhere because it's nothing but him acting like a child.

He's actually my brother, and I forgot to log off before posting.

*he

Lie.

[Ythan]

Although I always approve of suspicion of Ythan... "complacent"... really? That is not really how I would characterize his last 10 posts toward me.

You disagree with the reasoning and yet support the suspicion. Because you're an intense tunneler.

[Ythan]

I said I was holding off voting for Umbrage to give him a chance to answer me. He has now posted. Checking his L- before I place one.

[Ythan]

You disagree with the reasoning and yet support the suspicion. Because you're an intense tunneler.

Your capacity to detect sarcasm never ceases to astound me. And are you still mad about the prod or what? "shitfit" = me asking you to post "content" and not just informing us that you're reading the isos of the V/LA players?

inb4qqaboutrespondingtoYthan.

Calling it sarcasm now. Yeah okay. And no, you cannot begin to hope to characterize your focus on me as an attempt to produce content. You're a horrible, shitty, tunneling VI, and you're doing nothing but creating noise. Obnoxious, terrible noise.

[Ythan]

Krazy, you're not doing anything with Lebowski. You just picked out an arbitrary lurker to shift your vote to so you could pretend you're not tunneling. But moving your vote alone doesn't change anything. You're still a tunneling idiot.

vote Umbrage

[Ythan]

I have not drawn myself into one argument. I think you might not be taking as good notes in this game as in whichever one you're talking about elsewhere. Krazy has done pretty much nothing in this game but suggest a policy lynch in his first post and then make up new reasons when he couldn't talk about an ongoing game, then spend nearly every post bitching at me.

[Ythan]

You earned that deluge. You've been tunneling on me since before I posted. You're playing horribly. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. Start playing like you have a head on your shoulders and I'll stop calling you out/responding to the shit you say. And I don't mean shit as a general term for stuff.

[Ythan]

Krazy if you had ever posted anything of value then multiple players wouldn't be asking you to say something now. Token one offs to look like you're not tunneled a mile deep on one player is shit play.

[Ythan]

You almost exclusively direct posts at me you titanic hypocrite. All you're doing now is bitching out and refusing to answer valid points about your lack of contribution, tunneling, and anti-town attitude. If you're not going to play this game then replace out now.

[Ythan]

Look at Open 280. He played his same garbage game, I called him the same garbage tunneler, we were both town.

[Ythan]

Game has been over since the third, idiot.

[Ythan]

Got games mixed up. The other Krazy-trash-tunneler game is not to be talked about.

Umbrage, cut the theatrics.

[Ythan]

In fact, Umbrage, I would not be so quick to suggest to the mod that a player be replaced for the offense of being an immature child.

Additionally, you are continuing to ignore what is actually going on. The lack of development in your complaints is evidence of that. Attention is on you for a reason, and it needs to be there because you are not doing enough to get out of the wagon on you.

[Ythan]

I got the title of a game mixed up with another one. My bad. He refers to a specific post of his instead of answering questions. If he can show that he was mistaken about the post number I can see where he's coming from. I don't think so, though, although we've got shit to go on when all he does is give a post number.

[Ythan]

Krazy, Umbrage is not being run up because of the hysterics.

[Ythan]

And after reading your more substantial Umbrage post, I think you're playing up minor townish points and being noncommital on larger scummish points.

[Ythan]

I made a post against you and said I was leaning most toward voting you over other players but I wanted to wait until you had an opportunity to respond before I did so. Once you passed up that opportunity I placed my vote.

[Ythan]

Vague. Who do you consider to be actually posting, who among them do you consider

not

to look like town?

[Ythan]

Krazy and I are of like mind, that is the next question I was going to ask and one I would also like to hear the answer to.

[Ythan]

@Ythan--do you have any suspects after Umbrage? If so, who and why?

Not exactly. I have no outstanding questions that have not been satisfactorily answered. I started my individual rereads pretty early in the game, and Umbrage was the only one who stuck out at me. I'm not particularly alarmed by anything going on at the moment from other players, at least not from a scummy-suspicion point of view.

[Ythan]

I read this as an answer. What sort of answer were you looking for here?

It's not an answer, it's just turning the question back on the questioner.

This seems to indicate that who attacks or defends a person showing non-scummy behavior isn't useful. Can you explain what you meant by this?

He said he wanted to see who would attack or defend the point, but he had not made an accusation. I can see the "Will someone attack him for this thing I said" side, although is itself a whole other can of worms, but the defense side not at all.

Well, I thought that, because you didn't want to participate in the RVS.
Why didn't you random vote then?

It's like voting. Real world voting. The RVS stage produces content for me or other players to analyze, but me doing it myself isn't going to make much of a difference. It gets the game moving but if one or two players doesn't place a random vote it doesn't make a difference in my mind.

[Ythan]

I disagree that making null points is on par with, in short, relevant ones.

[Ythan]

Except it does mean that. That's what it means.

[Ythan]

There isn't a way to say it that makes sense.

[Ythan]

The last two comments are both critical of Krazy. Something about the attention DY is giving Krazy rubs me the wrong way. I'll comment on it further as I move through his posts here.

The attention of two references instead of one?

[Ythan]

UNVOTE: TheBigLebowski

Hope everything works out for you.

Really?

Abel, we don't need to go into it if it's just a difference of definition.

[Ythan]

Instead of spamming paragraphs in Latin maybe you could make a case against him instead of begging and pleading with us to make your case for you.

Saying "hey guys this guy is scum because I say so" is not a contribution, sorry.

You are either incredibly dense or completely mischaracterizing other players.

[Ythan]

Definitely not liking this Umbrage wagon, this is surely scum fueled. What i've seen of Vordark looks town, I like iam's succinctness and he's looking pro-town, so i'm thinking there is scum in {CS, SE, Ythan}. Will go with Ythan as my current top suspect, but I really need to read properly what I have only skimmed when I get a chance. I'll try and do this tomorrow.

Also, guys, some of these walls are really getting out of hand.

There is no content in this post. Why don't you like the wagon? What about me do you find scummy? What about anything is anything.

[Ythan]

You are either incredibly dense or completely mischaracterizing other players.

There is no content in this post.

Interesting how these two posts come together. I've hardly gone into a lot more detail on any of my reads than Xtoxm did in that post, so why such a variance in response, Ythan?

Exactly what variance? The post Krazy was addressing in the post I was addressing (your post) had a point. Tom's was a whole different kind of post and didn't have one. Problem?

Here is the problem; you voted Krazy for being 'anti-town', not for being scummy. You've never given any opinion on Krazy's alignment; you voted him as a form of punishment for bad play, once he adjusted his play to fit more in line with your standards of good play, you rescinded that punishment. Did you decide that Krazy was probably town because he conformed to your standards? I don't know. I don't even know if you thought he was town in the first place.

If the vote was for anti-town behavior and he ceased to exhibit anti-town behavior, why would you want the vote to stay?

Having taking a closer look at Ythan, he's not been as complacent as I had initially thought.

I'm left with CS, TBL, Abelcain and DarthYoshi as people who less appear to be acting with town motivations than everyone else.

Vote: DarthYoshi

Why him rather than the others? Because he has the most votes.

Still completely devoid of content.

[Ythan]

In fact, Tom's latest post is not just devoid of content. Beyond not explaining any of his reads, he made it clear that his choice of vote was completely arbitrary.

[Ythan]

Ythan: Krazy, you're not doing anything with Lebowski. You just picked out an arbitrary lurker to shift your vote to so you could pretend you're not tunneling. But moving your vote alone doesn't change anything. You're still a tunneling idiot.

vote Umbrage

@ Ythan, so you disagree with the concept of pressuring lurkers to post via voting them?

I find it hard to believe that you actually read the post that you were responding to and that is quoted above. That was not at all the message of my post.

Regfan's wall post not make me feel any better about the Lebowski slot.

Xtoxm's post does contain content. That's all I'm saying.

No. If you think there is, show me.

You're totally missing the point. Whether or not the vote stays is irrelevent because the vote had no meaning.

That may be what you think but that wasn't the point of your post. All your reads have to go on is the text. And to address this interpretation, it had a meaning. If it wasn't a suspicion vote, it still had meaning, and was removed at the appropriate time.

Note that DarthYoshi does not say he removed his vote because he no longer found Krazy scummy. DarthYoshi says he removed his vote because not doing so would have made him look bad.

You remove a pressure vote when the purpose of the pressure is alleviated.

Duh.

[Ythan]

Regfan are you kidding.

[Ythan]

I guess thanks for suggesting it so we can read over players' reasons for supporting or not supporting it.

[Ythan]

I just escaped from a Reck/Dram/Kise meet. Catching up.

[Ythan]

Massclaims just brak the game and make them duller than dull. *shrug*

VOTE: Quaroath

There are plenty of reasons to be against a massclaim, but to be against it because it would be dull? Wait, ARE you against it? You don't state a definite opinion here. Want to be able to switch to either side, eh?

He's not the only player to make that type of argument, and regardless it doesn't look good for you to jump on a player for one post at this point in the game.

[Ythan]

Argh, I've gotten too caught up with this TBL/xtoxm/Quaroath stuff. I'm going to make a big post at some point in time that outlines my case on Snake Eyes, because my arguments have been spread out all over the place. So if I don't post for a while, I'm working on that.

And here's why. You jumped on some player, not even the first one to do what you accused him of, when your vote should clearly be elsewhere.

[Ythan]

And here's why. You jumped on some player, not even the first one to do what you accused him of, when your vote should clearly be elsewhere.

Uh, did you even read my case?

Yes. You have a case on Snake. And yet you placed a vote on another player for a minor reason in the middle of your push on Snake.

[Ythan]

Should be recovered from Saint Patty's Day in the morning. It doesn't look like a whole hell of a lot has changed but I'll get all nice and caught up then.

[Ythan]

Umbrage is apparently pushing some case and yet again and again he goes off on a dubious interpretation of a single post to ignore his suspect and hop on someone else.

[Ythan]

That's not going to cut it. You aren't acting like you really have a suspect.

[Ythan]

You're dodging. I don't care about what you're saying about him, except that for a case you care so much about you seem to drop it pretty quick. Repeatedly.

[Ythan]

I don't get how I'm the only one voting Umbrage. Will reread for two leading wagons in interest of time.

[Ythan]

Note the deadline.

[Ythan]

You're dodging. I don't care about what you're saying about him, except that for a case you care so much about you seem to drop it pretty quick. Repeatedly.

Now YOU'RE dodging. Or not reading. Snake Eyes is my strongest scum read. But that doesn't change the fact that xtoxm should be the lynch today. At least he would be if Abelcain hadn't outed himself.

What the fuck are you talking about. Is any of this post even true?

[Ythan]

Morning.

[Ythan]

Hider hides behind scum or vig, hider dies.

[Ythan]

If you wouldn't mind letting him respond to what has been said so far before posting more on the subject I would appreciate it.

[Ythan]

Him is you, so go ahead. And remember, the hider could have hidden behind any of

four

people. It seemed to me you were under the impression that the hider only died if he hid behind someone who was killed.

[Ythan]

Forgot he can die off investigations etc. too.

Do you mean his own targets?

[Ythan]

Correct. They no longer have any power and their only use beyond that of a vanilla townie now is in any information they gained last night and the fact that they have a unique role to claim. If you, hider tracker, did track the hider to one of the dead killers last night, don't claim yet. You'll just be killed tonight as confirmed town.

Right?

[Ythan]

In games with powerroles, ie where good posting and smart play is often insufficient to avoid suspicion, scum must sometimes post suboptimally. That it would not be smart does not mean scum would not do it.

[Ythan]

You're criticizing someone for

not

commenting on flips?

[Ythan]

Yes, Ythan. When there's four flips and you give no reaction to any of them, I wonder what's going on.

What are you, new? Oh, right. I have discussed what is actually meaningful in the flips. Which, as in 90% of games (and an even higher percentage of normal games (and an even higher percentage of open games)) is almost nothing.

You never voted anyone other than the most obvtown player yesterday nor did you engage anyone or scumhunt.

Incorrect. If you want to actually support your statements you'll get more than one word, but judging by your play yesterday I won't be disappointed if you don't oblige.

Your behavior this game has been pretty radically different from my last game with you, and I'm wondering what the hell is going on.

That's because you're a horrible tunneler who is more interested in any play of mine than scummy play of all players.

Just because you were town before does not mean you're town now, despite how many times you curse at me or call me tunneling.

Way to argue against a point nobody made. Yes you're tunneling (I honestly thought you were improving yesterday), but this statement of yours has no relevance to anything anyone has said.

I'm not sure if you're my top candidate right now or not, but you're much higher after Q's flip than you were before.

Based on nothing, right?

[Ythan]

He said we were 'reducing our chances of hitting scum to 0', then he tacked on 'unless xtoxm is scum'.

Why are you characterizing a qualifier as something tacked on?

And Krazy, in case you aren't actually going to read my post, here's a tip for the newbie. There is no reason to "discuss the flips" unless you actually have something to say about them. To urge another player to do so without any topic of inquiry behind your prodding is just another way for you to show everyone how interested you are in me.

[Ythan]

This is a 21 page thread and we just got almost all of our hard information less than 24 hours ago. Why are you so fucking terrible at mafia.

[Ythan]

You're trash at this game, and I mean Mafia, not Open 289, and you have nothing to add but useless whiny noise. I have nothing more to say about you.

[Ythan]

You can criticize me for my lack of scumhunting within the span of time since the thread unlocked when you have done any since the thread started you pathetic tunneling child.

[Ythan]

Pretending to make a case and then pretending you'll ignore (because anyone who reads the thread knows you're as full of shit saying you won't responding to me as you are when you do respond to me bazing) anything I say is kind of a shitty way to play Mafia. But do I look surprised. Can't you just replace out already.

[Ythan]

Now that this conversation is over, according to Krazy, I'll go ahead and provide a concise version for those people who dislike reading the back and fourths that come so often from his failure as a mafia player and success as a master tunneler.

The scene, daybreak.
Ythan "Good morning everyone!"
Everyone "Most of us haven't posted yet."
Krazy "Hey, first let me express my disappointment that you haven't broken obvious conventional wisdom and discussed flips beyond what is necessary. But enough of that, why haven't you posted an updated analysis yet. The game has been open for hours."
Ythan "What about everyone e-"
Krazy "I DON'T GIVE A FUCK"

[Ythan]

I have permission to snipe at you however I like. You validate all criticisms of your play by making no effort to right the anti-town dung heap that is your iso in this game.

[Ythan]

Abel, we had a discussion yesterday about sumcreads and thinking a player is scum. While rereading your iso I have realized that you were referring to a read of a specific incident. This is not really how people use the term when they say they have a read on a player, but I get what you meant to say now.

[Ythan]

Also, Abel, I'm not really sure why you dropped Umbrage in your iso post 15.

[Ythan]

vote Umbrage

This is, by the by, still far and away the best wagon possible. U is pretty near the end of the alphabet so it will be a short while before this gets seriously rehashed.

[Ythan]

1) Do you think Iamusername hid behind mafia or vig?
2) Does Quaroths scumflip make you think anyone is more lilely to be town/mafia?
3) Who's your largest suspect as of now?

1 What on Earth? Beyond the question of how one would begin to theorize on this topic, what use would it possibly have for anyone?
2 To be announced.
3 Umbrage fo sho. Although I'm also going to drop a

FoS ConSpiracy

.

[Ythan]

Thanks Krazy. Using isos as one's primary method of analysis can be a tad confusing at times.

[Ythan]

Your question was not who he hid behind but what he hid behind. Which

is

useless. If you want to analyze his iso for tells re: who you think he hid behind in order to discover a target who was neither of the flipped killers, that's somewhat different, and I think a terribly convoluted and unreliable way to try to find mafia.

[Ythan]

Vordark, if you still believe DarthYoshi to be scum can you please summarize a case?

[Ythan]

As a matter of fact,

FoS Vordark

.

An awesome summary on DY will sort that right out.

[Ythan]

1 Null

at worst

? Then what do you think it was specifically?
2 Don't act like you've

established

anything or we'd have a lynch by now.
3 Do you have a reason to say he was distracting or buddying besides the fact that he is neither me nor Krazy?
4 I don't think this is true, is it?
5 So far today I have not read your iso but I have read his, which contains a great deal of your text. I'll reread yours today, and possibly his again with this specific point in mind, to see if I might have missed it.
6 I remember seeing you use that term at least once and I did not agree with the use, but I will keep this in mind on rereading.
7 I really don't think a statement this broad is valid.
8 Add this to the list of things I don't remember seeing but will keep an eye out for.
9 I don't recall ad hominem. Attacking you, sure.

I'm hoping that you'll keep your cool a little better discussing this with a third party.

[Ythan]

Secondly, we are headed for a repeat of day 1. Everyone so far has simply posted their suspects from day 1. Krazy thinks Ythan is scummy. Ythan thinks I'm scummy. Vordark thinks DarthYoshi is scummy. It's the exact same fucking thing.

This is toward the terrible end of the how to downplay suspicion against you spectrum. The fact that I thought you were scum yesterday does not really alleviate my suspicion of you today.

I have established it to my satisfaction in post #262.

Are you satisfied with nobody believing things you say, because it's really easy to convince yourself of your point of view if that's all you want to do.

I have expressed possible scum motives for observed behavior. You are asking me if those motives exist if we ignore the behavior. That is nonsensical.

This does not even resemble my statement, and you're doing a piss poor job as always of actually supporting statements. The next time I see you say "I already said that", and it's both dubious and lacking in even a specific post number, I'm considering moving my vote.

I believe post #291 covers all of this suitably.

I seriously disagree.

I am perfectly even-tempered. Why do you believe I have not been?

Your chronic problem with actually sharing the support your claim in important posts.

Question: Should the hider tracker claim today even if there is no information on scum? That will give us a confirmed townie for today, and give scum the WIFOM option of either trying to kill the last PR or the confirmed VT. If we wait, there's a chance the HT would be killed and we'll lose our chance at a lynch with confirmed town. Thoughts?

Forget everything I said about possibly moving my vote. Been over how there is absolutely no reason for the HT to claim today if they don't have scum for us.

[Ythan]

After Q's flip, Ythan's suspicion of you either implies Q spent nearly the entire day yesterday busing--on day one--or Ythan's suspicion of you is completely unfounded and doesn't make any sense at all.

You have a plenty bullshitty case of your own to discuss before you move on to misrepresenting mine as just as ridiculous as anything you've posted.

I'm going to take a look at exactly how significant a part of the Umbrage wagon was Q-pushed. Because I don't anticipate it was very much at all.

[Ythan]

Um Regfan alt?

Guess so.

[Ythan]

@Ythan, you think Umbrage is mafia, who do you think his partner is?

Thus far in the day I have already expressed my suspicion of two living players, Umbrage and Vordark.

[Ythan]

No, he's scum because he's not making sincere efforts to find scum, ...

I see very little in iam's iso up to this point that could be called scumhunting. Reading on.

I have to agree with Krazy's evaluation that iam is piggybacking, even if he did place a vote first.

Talks about DY removing Krazy-vote when Krazy seemed to stop being as anti-town, iam harps on him for not removing it based on an alignment read. Vote was not based on alignment in the first place, and I think that has been really obvious from the start. I don't get where the confusion comes from.

In iso post 14, has trouble picking out a specific post by DY he would call most scummy.

I believe it is

more likely than not

that at least one of Umbrage and iam is town, though.

[Ythan]

I definitely mean iam at the end of that post about iam.

[Ythan]

Thanks Krazy. Using isos as one's primary method of analysis can be a tad confusing at times.

Pretty much when I check the thread I catch up with new stuff, head straight to the bottom, and iso the next person on the list.

[Ythan]

Bright side, everyone I suspect to a lesser extent than Umbrage and Vordark ends up being dead already.

[Ythan]

Krazy I'm not going to bother isoing right now. His posts are 99% noise. Closer to the noose than coherent town reads, further from it than coherent scum reads.

[Ythan]

HEY GUYS QUAROATH SURE IS SUSPICIOUS

[Ythan]

Looking at Ythan's ISO, Day One he pushed the Umbrage wagon hard (was the only vote on him most of the day) and is doing the same now. I think Umbrage was unlynchable half-way through the day and I think he's fairly obvtown given that Quaroath flip. He also made several stabs at xtoxm, but since half the players here went after that failtown, that doesn't move my meter much.

Ythan has also pretty consistently defended DY, not just against myself but against others. Since DY is still my prime, this strikes me as interesting.

FoS: Ythan

I think people need to take a closer look at him and just ignore Krazy's involvement for a minute. The main points that bother me are Ythan's statements and attitude that I mentioned in my previous post, his continued pushing of an Umbrage lynch and his interactions concerning Quaroath. In particular, post #346 starts a run of Ythan vs. Umbrage when Umbrage votes Quaroath.

Considering that you're the only person who thinks Umbrage is obvtown this is a little silly. And show us the extent to which I have been defending DY. Specifics can only help, if there is any basis to your case.

On the other hand, everyone ignoring Krazy might be the best plan I've seen all day. Goodposting Vordark.

[Ythan]

Reasoning for having the hider tracker claim today:

Are you reading the thread at all. Since the HT doesn't have scum to give us its only purpose is its unique claim. Wasting that d2 is the opposite of pro-town. Quit flailing, that plan is ridiculous.

[Ythan]

Considering that you're the only person who thinks Umbrage is obvtown this is a little silly.

I was the one saying Umb. was obvtown Y. Not even going to add a snarky remark this time.

Even better, the only one who thinks he's town is the most ridiculous player in the game.

[Ythan]

Having an uncounterable claim will be more and more valuable as the game progresses. Umbrage argues that we might lose the HT if they don't claim now. What, because scum will accidentally kill them? Scum will almost certainly kill them immediately after claiming. Umbrage's constant defense of an obviously antitown tactic is reinforcing his place as my number one read.

[Ythan]

I'm not sure I'm hearing krazy correctly from way back in that tunnel but it sounds like he's saying I don't make mistakes as town. For a guy who doesn't like meta he sure hasn't used anything else this game.

[Ythan]

Having an uncounterable claim will be more and more valuable as the game progresses. Umbrage argues that we might lose the HT if they don't claim now. What, because scum will accidentally kill them? Scum will almost certainly kill them immediately after claiming. Umbrage's constant defense of an obviously antitown tactic is reinforcing his place as my number one read.

IDIOT.

READ MY POSTS.

THE WHOLE POINT IS THAT SCUM WILL KILL HIDER TRACKER THAT NIGHT.

I THOUGHT ABOUT THAT.

I THOUGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING THAT COULD HAPPEN.

AND I POSTED EVERY POSSIBLE SCENARIO.

TRY READING IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND.

I DON'T FEEL LIKE REPEATING MYSELF AGAIN TO EXPLAIN WHAT I'VE ALREADY EXPLAINED A THOUSAND TIMES.

READ MY POSTS AND FIGURE IT OUT YOURSELF.

IF YOU'VE NOTHING TO CONTRIBUTE OTHER THAN "UMBRAGE IS STILL SCUM" DO THE TOWN A FAVOUR AND REPLACE OUT NOW.

@ Krazy: Top two FoSes? Meaning take a stab at guessing the scum.

Honestly, Snake Eyes' lurkiness strikes me more as town than scum. I still think he's one of the scummiest players in the game, but I'm beginning to evaluate that read.

I'm still sure Abelcain knew Xtoxm's alignment. I simply can't see town saying something like that. Maybe I'm just paranoid though, nobody else seems to have seen it.

Lately I'm concerned about Ythan and his tunneling on me. When he was attacking Krazy, it was scummy, but understandable. But his town play has deteriorated even further. Krazy is way better than he is at this point.

The fact that nobody agrees with your retarded plan no matter how many times you repeat yourself should give you a clue that maybe you should quit shouting the same bullshit at the top of your lungs in every post.

[Ythan]

Yes, I'm appealing to majority. The twentieth time you repeated your opinion. Oh no boohoo nobody likes your idea. Start a diary if you need a place to bitch about these things, quit filling the thread with your awful posting.

[Ythan]

I still have yet to see a valid argument against the HT claiming other than 'MAJORITY DONT WANT SO SUK IT RETARD'. (And as we all know, the majority has always been right.)

Then kindly learn to read the damn thread good sir. Thinking you have an argument in favor of a claim does not mean that the actually reasonable argument (or ten) against it doesn't exist. If you say "nope that's dumb derp here's my idea" then the coherent thoughts that you, how to bowdlerize this for the mod, poop on, are still there.

[Ythan]

Until you accept that throwing out a theory and pretending you've proven something is a bullshit way to approach a game containing more than one person, your posts are going to continue to lack any value.

[Ythan]

Do you want information on Scumbrage to evaluate or do you want me to make a specific stand? If the latter, it's been a busy weekend but I still intend to wrap up when I'm down the list.

[Ythan]

And Umbrage continues to scream the thread full of trash.

[Ythan]

Announcing intent to hammer no lynch and requesting that he claim.

[Ythan]

Otherwise his prod countdown will be paused until morning? Best to wait then.

[Ythan]

Bah!

[Ythan]

I enjoy the way I play.

Krazy, are you saying that you weren't tunneling because I was...a town PR?

[Ythan]

if I did

lol

[Ythan]

Someone is deflecting lul.

[Ythan]

Lol wall. Game's over Krazy. If you don't care about your image then chill out.

[Ythan]

Thanks for the great advice Duplicity I'll be sure to remember that.

[Ythan]

I can feel the rage from here.

[Ythan]

STOP IT, CHILDREN.

Can Krazy and I do anything to convince you how pointless posts like this are?

[Ythan]

You guys is krazy.