Mini 1138 - Candy Zoo Mafia (Game Over!)

[vezokpiraka]

Oh crap.

I just got something. Amrun is scum. Or at least I think. Maybe not.

But morthas is still the scum in my eyes.

[Amrun]

What? Can you try being clear instead of making vague posts that mean nothing, vezok?

I'm not scum. Why is mothras scum?

[Charlie]

NB: I have corrected the last votecount because it's actually incorrect in terms of the order which the final lynch was reached, as Amrun and I both unvoted and then revoted, but remained at our initial ordering in the final vote count.

@ Mod: fix this please? =]

Fix'd.

Vote Count 23

crazypianist1116 (2) - Zyrconium, mb53
Hoppster (1) - Hazard With a Glove
Hazard With a Glove (1) - Hoppster
Morthas (1) - vezokpiraka

Not voting: crazypianist1116, Amrun, VasudeVa, Morthas, ToastyToast
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Deadline is on Monday, 9th May at 0430 hours (GMT-5)

[Amrun]

Might as well put my money where my mouth is.

VOTE: cp

[mb53]

Oh crap.

I just got something. Amrun is scum. Or at least I think. Maybe not.

I lol'ed

[Charlie]

crazypianist1116 has been prodded, again.

[crazypianist1116]

Oh hey prodded again. I thought I had till this morning, since it hasn't been 3 days since day 3 started.

Hazard with a Glove - Leaning scum
mb53 - Leaning scum
Zyrconium - Town
Hoppster - Leaning Town
Amrun - Town
vezokpiraka - Null
VasudeVa - Not enough info
Morthas - Leaning Town
ToastyToast - Leaning scum

Hoppster's case is good. Granted, he's doing that "Hey everyone look, there's obvscum here" thing, but I'm buying it. It could be motivated by him being mad at hazard not choosing him, but I don't think that's the case.
Mb's vote looks like a lurker taking a stance on a wagon so it looks like he's doing something when he really isn't...
Zyrc looks like he's trying to help town, but I'm not exactly sure how he ended up with a vote on me based on votecounts alone. Assumptions based on how many scum are on a wagon can lead you down a path to tunneling.
Toasty is more of a gut read. I'm not as confident with this one.


Morthas, you feel like you can actually get an answer out of vezok?

[ToastyToast]

@vezok: there is no way I'm agreeing to a mass claim. Why do you keep role fishing? isn't it obvious that it fucked us up in that two Zoo visitors are now dead?

This hasn't been answered yet.

[Amrun]

Oh hey prodded again. I thought I had till this morning, since it hasn't been 3 days since day 3 started.

Counting down until prod?

Re-affirm vote

[VasudeVa]

Okay so, I think I might have time tommorow. Let's see if I can get some reading done. If I can't, I'll request replacement tom.

Something to work with though:
Zyrconium's #1014 is super scum. "That Scum LyLo is quicker than we thought" comment is something I'd expect scum to say once somebody has insight into them. I don't know where he stands since I'm barely reading anything, but I'd like people to pay attention to him.

I really do not see Town reacting that way. I see Townies slightly agreeing, maybe taking my setup-spec with a grain of salt. But his "Vas is probably right about this one very specific thing he mentioned in a big wall about lots of things" reaction is very off.

Vote: Zyrc

Placing my vote here, then the maybe-read tom.

[Hoppster]

I know this will be turned around on me, but we have no way of knowing that is true. The fact is, I had no way of knowing you would use the protect or not. I'm not going to waste my PR just because you say so.

Okay, let me get this straight.

1. Do you think I'm town or scum?
   
2. Do you believe my role part-claim?
   
3. Why didn't you target me last night?

You may have answered these separately, but I want them all together in this context.

What? Is all this directed at the one quote? I was stating how I felt about the wagon quickly. It had no vote because it wasn't meant to have a vote. And "I MEANT HOPPSTER" makes no sense.

Aaaand here's what you said earlier:

Vote: Hoppster

I would have tried to wagon him before Stels died, but you all had to go kill him before I got on.

Aaaand here's what you said before that:

But I', apposed to a Stels lynch, I'm really not convinced and nothing he's done seems damning. IMO, I'm thinking scum is on this wagon, cause I really haven't seen much reason at all for this.

You wanted to wagon me, there was your opportunity. Instead you chose to make a vague non-specific attack which is then your reference point in the future for saying "LOOK I TOLD YOU I WAS SUSPICIOUS OF THIS GUY YESTERDAY!!1!"

That's the only quote you have from yesterday that could be construed into you being suspicious of me. And yet, it came with no vote.

Stels (7) - crazypianist1116, ToastyToast, vezokpiraka, Zyrconium, Amrun, Hoppster, Kalofer

Please tell me who the scum are on this wagon and how you can distinguish from the non-scum who also voted, even though, as you say yourself, there's not "much reason at all" for it.

That doesn't apply. I was able to try and find out why he thought that, so I did. I never said he couldn't have his reasons. You are putting words in my mouth now.

No, I'm quoting what has been said, and then filling in the gaps in a logical manner.

It does apply, for the reasons I have said: you had mysterious reasons, you thought he had mysterious reasons... You can't refute it just by saying "OH IT DOESN'T APPLY". The fact is you, of all people, should have been able to quite easily guess Kalofer's reasons if you thought he had some role-related reason for thinking TS was town. And how would targeting Kalofer explain his thought process? If you're town and you've been honest, you should have had no reason to believe that targetting Kalofer would reveal any insight. All we knew was that Zoo Visitors that target Candy Animals get goodies.


You still haven't justified your stance on Stels from yesterday. Please do.

Amrun: Null/Town.
He hasn't done anything very scummy at all, but his posts seem like fluff most of the time to me, usually consisting of simple one line questions that sometimes don't need to be asked anyway.

CP: null
He hasn't done anything scummy, but he hasn't done anything at all. He's lurking far to much, but I don't really believe in Lynch all Lurkers.

Why is Amrun Null/Town but CP just null?

Mb53: Null/town: He seems pretty town ish to me. Is he on V/la or something?

Morthas: Null. I don't know what to think about him at this point. He seemed pretty town during D1, and still now I guess.

Why is Mb53 Null/Town but Morthas just null?

Vezok: Town. From what everyone else has said, he must be incompetent.

Sheeping people's reads?

Zyrconium: scum/null.

Justify this kthx.

For now I will vote the lurker until VV/the replacement makes a post about the game.

Glass houses. Stones.

A horribly weak reason for jumping on a wagon, and he's also giving himself an escape route.

Hoppster's case is good. Granted, he's doing that "Hey everyone look, there's obvscum here" thing, but I'm buying it.

So why no vote?


@ Amrun: Why do you want CP lynched? Is it just that you're convinced by Zyrc's VCA? Why CP over Hazard?



What part of Vas' wall/setup speculation addresses lylo? I've skimmed it a few times, Ctrl + F'd 'lylo', and neither have had any luck.

[VasudeVa]

What part of Vas' wall/setup speculation addresses lylo? I've skimmed it a few times, Ctrl + F'd 'lylo', and neither have had any luck.

Which is why Zyrconium needs to die. What is the current view on Zyrc?

[Amrun]

Hazard: I must have glazed over when you placed Zyrc as scummy after you told me he was town. Why did you say he was scummy?

Hoppster: a little bit the vca, a little bit seeing what reaction I'd get (answer: terrible), a lot a bit gut, about cp.

Confused about Hazard and therefore Zyrconium. He passed the "scum looking for easy candy in Amrun" test, but if he's town, he's bad town. If he's town, I feel like he just cleared Zyrconium, though Zyrconium was individually scummy.

I'm kind of feeling like we should lynch Zyrconium and if he's scum, think a lot ore about Hazard.

[Zyrconium]

my vauge attempts at VCA+ town reads(never really done it myself before, so if there's a specific way to do it that's less probable guesswork, tell me) suggest 1 of {crazypianist}+1 of {NS(VV now)/Hazard}+1 of {TT, Hoppster, vezok}

specifically assuming 2 on TS, 1 on Hazard Day1 and 2 on Stels, 1 off, Day 2.... also see cp pushing Hazard and TS at the same time end of day 1, while discounting the possibility of them both being scum.

This means I think(based on VCA, and exclusion of town reads)
that 1 person of {crazypianist} is scum
that 1 person of {VV OR Hazard} is scum
and that one person of {TT OR Hoppster OR vezok} is scum.

I'll got to making a case on CP. and explaining the VCA sometime soon, it's a chunk of effort I've been putting off.

---(1 day gap in writing, keep setting to much in the way of goals for single posts)

What part of Vas' wall/setup speculation addresses lylo? I've skimmed it a few times, Ctrl + F'd 'lylo', and neither have had any luck.

Which is why Zyrconium needs to die. What is the current view on Zyrc?

And this here is why VV needs to die.

Seriously, someone other than VV who's hopping on my wagon(read:amrun) explain why VV thinks I'm scum.... he's so far pointed out that my conclusions aren't logical, and I'll disprove that in just a sec, but he's got fuck all to say that my conclusions are scummy, and has yet to finish reading the game and is STILL leading a bandwagon on me?

(this is a little bit defensive, but baseless fucktardery get's on my nerves, it's a character flaw, I'll admit, especially on the internet.)

P.S. actually, think I'm reading this wrong, VV is scum because this directly contradicts where he stated:

But his "Vas is probably right about this one very specific thing he mentioned in a big wall about lots of things" reaction is very off.

explain to me VV, why the fuck that statement is there if you never even said the thing I'm obviously leaping to conclusions about in the first place?

---

Now to explain why VV is wrong, as well as full of shit:

This post is me trying really hard not to claim having both goodies, and the same line as Amrun in my PM, while at the same time trying really fucking hard to point out that Amrun totally misquoted that line, missing out the part where it states not to tell anyone our goodies, so that the bad people don't get them, this strongly suggests(actually, of the 5 people we know about, only 40% have goodies, so it's not so strong as I thought back then) that "bad people want SPECIFIC goodies".

Combine this with the lack of a N1 kill, and the possibility of both "steal, then have die a day later" and "non-standard scum wincon" mechanics and we have the scum having stolen twice already, one more person than they've killed, THIS MAKES LYLO CLOSER THAN EXPECTED, assuming the game is balanced to have town having the same number of days to find scum as a standard game.

to be fair, that is like 3 probably's away from certain, but I don't think having the town be slightly more cautions of a perfectly plausible thing is that bad an idea.

[Zyrconium]

EBWOP: the part where it states: "not to tell anyone our goodies, [so that the bad people don't get them]"

emphasis so that I don't have to deal with stupid people pointing out that I forgot brackets therefor must not have read Amrun's post correctly.

[Hazard with a Glove]

I know this will be turned around on me, but we have no way of knowing that is true. The fact is, I had no way of knowing you would use the protect or not. I'm not going to waste my PR just because you say so.

Okay, let me get this straight.

1. Do you think I'm town or scum?
   
2. Do you believe my role part-claim?
   
3. Why didn't you target me last night?

You may have answered these separately, but I want them all together in this context.

Scum
Yes
Because it was a trap to waste my PR

What? Is all this directed at the one quote? I was stating how I felt about the wagon quickly. It had no vote because it wasn't meant to have a vote. And "I MEANT HOPPSTER" makes no sense.

Aaaand here's what you said earlier:

Vote: Hoppster

I would have tried to wagon him before Stels died, but you all had to go kill him before I got on.

Aaaand here's what you said before that:

But I', apposed to a Stels lynch, I'm really not convinced and nothing he's done seems damning. IMO, I'm thinking scum is on this wagon, cause I really haven't seen much reason at all for this.

You wanted to wagon me, there was your opportunity. Instead you chose to make a vague non-specific attack which is then your reference point in the future for saying "LOOK I TOLD YOU I WAS SUSPICIOUS OF THIS GUY YESTERDAY!!1!"

That's the only quote you have from yesterday that could be construed into you being suspicious of me. And yet, it came with no vote.

Ok, first off, my post yesterday WAS NOT DIRECTLY POINTING AT YOU. I was quickly stating what I thought of the Stels wagon before I had to go. I did not directly think you were scum before that post. If you actually were to read my posts, I have not ounce said anything along the lines of "I TOLD YOU SO, SCUM WAS ON THE STELS WAGON." It's you making that BS up. It came with not Vote, BECAUSE I WASN'T SUSPICIOUS OF YOU YET.

Stels (7) - crazypianist1116, ToastyToast, vezokpiraka, Zyrconium, Amrun, Hoppster, Kalofer

Please tell me who the scum are on this wagon and how you can distinguish from the non-scum who also voted, even though, as you say yourself, there's not "much reason at all" for it.

I can tell you're scum because you wanted to waste PRs and now making idiotic case on me, just like scum would make.
"even though, as you say yourself, there's not "much reason at all" for it." What?

That doesn't apply. I was able to try and find out why he thought that, so I did. I never said he couldn't have his reasons. You are putting words in my mouth now.

No, I'm quoting what has been said, and then filling in the gaps in a logical manner.

It does apply, for the reasons I have said: you had mysterious reasons, you thought he had mysterious reasons... You can't refute it just by saying "OH IT DOESN'T APPLY". The fact is you, of all people, should have been able to quite easily guess Kalofer's reasons if you thought he had some role-related reason for thinking TS was town. And how would targeting Kalofer explain his thought process? If you're town and you've been honest, you should have had no reason to believe that targetting Kalofer would reveal any insight. All we knew was that Zoo Visitors that target Candy Animals get goodies.

Just because I had mysterious reasons doesn't mean I'm not allowed to use the PR. We all have the right to hide things, and we all have the right to request them to answer or vote them if they don't. And, if you notived I revealed my mysterious reasons. I did not think he had role related reasoning. At the time, I didn't think there'd be more than 2 of the PR. How would targeting him explain his thought process? I got a QT with him where he explained it.
REALLY? NO INSIGHT? We got PLENTY of information from that.

You still haven't justified your stance on Stels from yesterday. Please do.

As I have mentioned in the post you have quoted dozens of times, I disagreed with your reasoning.

Amrun: Null/Town.
He hasn't done anything very scummy at all, but his posts seem like fluff most of the time to me, usually consisting of simple one line questions that sometimes don't need to be asked anyway.

CP: null
He hasn't done anything scummy, but he hasn't done anything at all. He's lurking far to much, but I don't really believe in Lynch all Lurkers.

Why is Amrun Null/Town but CP just null?

This is just fliff. I stated why I think they are scum/town/null. Try reading you quotes.

Mb53: Null/town: He seems pretty town ish to me. Is he on V/la or something?

Morthas: Null. I don't know what to think about him at this point. He seemed pretty town during D1, and still now I guess.

Why is Mb53 Null/Town but Morthas just null?

...

Vezok: Town. From what everyone else has said, he must be incompetent.

Sheeping people's reads?

No. How is that sheeping?

Zyrconium: scum/null.

Justify this kthx.

Idk, gut feeling.

[Hazard with a Glove]

Hazard: I must have glazed over when you placed Zyrc as scummy after you told me he was town. Why did you say he was scummy?

What?

[Amrun]

Zyrconium, what are you implying? Yeah, I rephrased the role PM, so I wouldn't get modkilled.

Hazard, explain the evolution of your read on Zyrconium, please.

[Hazard with a Glove]

Evolution?

[Amrun]

Yes... You have professed several different reads of him, and I'd like yyou to explain your thought process regarding him.

[Zyrconium]

Zyrconium, what are you implying? Yeah, I rephrased the role PM, so I wouldn't get modkilled.

Badly. I'm tempted to leave my answer as that, because Amrun is being overly defensive and needs to learn not to be, but specifically, I'm explaining that you quoted it badly so as to explain what a better quote(replace where I say quote with paraphrase if you want) would be, so as to explain my thought process to town....

[Amrun]

The implication that they were after particular goodies had 0% to do with the topic of conversation at the time.

So, once again: what are you trying to imply?

[Amrun]

Oh, and:

I will be scarce this weekend; I can post to react to things, but don't expect in-depth analysis.

[VasudeVa]

Yeah, I'm out.

Request replacement.

[Hoppster]

Warning: the following wall-post contains several points where I graphically pwn Hazard-scum's logic. Viewer caution advised.

There is a tl;dr at the foot of the post.

Quotes shrunk in font size due to lessen quote wall effect (but they are necessary for context).

A

1. Do you think I'm town or scum?
   
2. Do you believe my role part-claim?
   
3. Why didn't you target me last night?

Scum
Yes
Because it was a trap to waste my PR

Excellent, just as I thought. Some follow up questions:

4. Why do you think I'm scum?
5. Why do you think I was trying to trap you?

=================================================

B

Aaaand here's what you said earlier:

Vote: Hoppster

I would have tried to wagon him before Stels died, but you all had to go kill him before I got on.

Aaaand here's what you said before that:

But I', apposed to a Stels lynch, I'm really not convinced and nothing he's done seems damning. IMO, I'm thinking scum is on this wagon, cause I really haven't seen much reason at all for this.

You wanted to wagon me, there was your opportunity. Instead you chose to make a vague non-specific attack which is then your reference point in the future for saying "LOOK I TOLD YOU I WAS SUSPICIOUS OF THIS GUY YESTERDAY!!1!"

That's the only quote you have from yesterday that could be construed into you being suspicious of me. And yet, it came with no vote.

Ok, first off, my post yesterday WAS NOT DIRECTLY POINTING AT YOU. I was quickly stating what I thought of the Stels wagon before I had to go. I did not directly think you were scum before that post. If you actually were to read my posts, I have not ounce said anything along the lines of "I TOLD YOU SO, SCUM WAS ON THE STELS WAGON." It's you making that BS up. It came with not Vote, BECAUSE I WASN'T SUSPICIOUS OF YOU YET.

So you say your quote from yesterday disagreeing with the Stels wagon isn't attacking me. Uh-huh. Who is it attacking then? Are you being deliberately vague? Why didn't you specify?

And it came with no vote because you weren't suspicious of me? Oh, then who were you suspicious of and why didn't you vote for them?

=================================================

C

Stels (7) - crazypianist1116, ToastyToast, vezokpiraka, Zyrconium, Amrun, Hoppster, Kalofer

Please tell me who the scum are on this wagon and how you can distinguish from the non-scum who also voted, even though, as you say yourself, there's not "much reason at all" for it.

I can tell you're scum because you wanted to waste PRs and now making idiotic case on me, just like scum would make.
"even though, as you say yourself, there's not "much reason at all" for it." What?

Idiotic cases... People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, just FYI.

And wow, you've forgotten what you said already? Here it is again.

But I', apposed to a Stels lynch, I'm really not convinced and nothing he's done seems damning. IMO, I'm thinking scum is on this wagon, cause I really haven't seen much reason at all for this.

It's related to

B

. You are saying there is scum on the wagon. In

B

, you said at this point you didn't think I was scum. Using the knowledge you had at the time of the quote, please tell me how you can tell who is scum and who is town on the wagon. Unless, of course, you were being deliberately vague and attacking nobody in paticular, in which case now's the time to

subtly link to

out your scumbuddies kthx.

Also, nicely dodged with me asking you who you thought was scum yet you giving an invalid answer (which only has one person, anyway). Ohwait, I noticed it, no, sorry, that was a terrible dodge.

=================================================

D

The fact is you, of all people, should have been able to quite easily guess Kalofer's reasons if you thought he had some role-related reason for thinking TS was town. And how would targeting Kalofer explain his thought process? If you're town and you've been honest, you should have had no reason to believe that targetting Kalofer would reveal any insight. All we knew was that Zoo Visitors that target Candy Animals get goodies.

Just because I had mysterious reasons doesn't mean I'm not allowed to use the PR. We all have the right to hide things, and we all have the right to request them to answer or vote them if they don't. And, if you notived I revealed my mysterious reasons. I did not think he had role related reasoning. At the time, I didn't think there'd be more than 2 of the PR. How would targeting him explain his thought process? I got a QT with him where he explained it.
REALLY? NO INSIGHT? We got PLENTY of information from that.

Teehee.

• You targeted Kalofer to learn his reasons for thinking Twistedspoon was town, yet...
  
• You did not think his reasons were role related!
• My question: "And how would targeting Kalofer explain his thought process?"
  
• Your answer: "I got a QT with him where he explained it."

Oops, you really gotta stop contradicting yourself, Hazard. Let's connect the dots for the less observant viewers at home.

• For the first two bullet points - why exactly did you think targeting him would let you magically come across the reasons for him thinking Twistedspoon was town,
  paticularly if you didn't think his reasons were role related?
  OHWAIT, unless you
  knew
  that you'd get a QT with him, BECAUSE YOU'RE SCUM.

• For the second two bullet points - I asked how you knew N1 that targeting Kalofer would explain his thought process, because, after all, that's the reason you targeted him. You answered that he explained it in the QT. OHWAIT BUT HOW DID YOU KNOW YOU WOULD GET A QUICKTOPIC WITH KALOFER N1 WHEN YOU ONLY RECIEVED IT D2?! THAT'S RIGHT, YOU
  KNEW
  YOU'D GET A QT WITH HIM,
  BECAUSE YOU'RE SCUM
  .

We did indeed get a lot of information in hindsight, such as you being scum. Thanks for reminding me, I almost forgot that.

=================================================

E

You still haven't justified your stance on Stels from yesterday. Please do.

As I have mentioned in the post you have quoted dozens of times, I disagreed with your reasoning.

Bzzzzzt. Try again, scum. "LOLNO YOUR REASONING IS WRONG" is not a justification of a stance. Here's my case, tell me why it didn't convince you.

=================================================

F

Amrun: Null/Town.
He hasn't done anything very scummy at all, but his posts seem like fluff most of the time to me, usually consisting of simple one line questions that sometimes don't need to be asked anyway.

CP: null
He hasn't done anything scummy, but he hasn't done anything at all. He's lurking far to much, but I don't really believe in Lynch all Lurkers.

Why is Amrun Null/Town but CP just null?

This is just fliff. I stated why I think they are scum/town/null. Try reading you quotes.

Okay, I'll try reading my quotes.

Huh, I just read it, and yep, it's scummy. You're using the same reasoning - absence of anything scummy - to give two different reads. Your refusal to elaborate on this confirms that you're just making up your reads and are scummy scum scum.

Mb53: Null/town: He seems pretty town ish to me. Is he on V/la or something?

Morthas: Null. I don't know what to think about him at this point. He seemed pretty town during D1, and still now I guess.

Why is Mb53 Null/Town but Morthas just null?

...

Yep, this is also scummy. Using the same reason - seeming pretty town - to give two different reads. Your refusal to elaborate on this confirms that you're just making up your reads and are scummy scum scum.

Vezok: Town. From what everyone else has said, he must be incompetent.

Sheeping people's reads?

No. How is that sheeping?

"From what everyone else has said". <--- Sheeping.

If you're not sheeping, give a reason that doesn't involve what other people think.

(Also, see what I said earlier about people in glass houses throwing stones.)

tl;dr

A: Work in progress
B: Hazard doesn't vote for people he is suspicious of.
C: Hazard says there is scum on a wagon despite not thinking there is scum on the wagon.
D: Hazard-scum knew he would get a QT with Kalofer.
E: Hazard had no reason for saying Stels was town.
F: Hazard recycles reasoning for multiple reads but forgets to then provide the same read. Oops.