Mini 1159 - Powerrox93's Mini Normal I (Game Over)

[-L-]

@Surprise_Carcinogen: Quite simply, townies are not concerned with convincing people that they are sincere - they're too busy being paranoid and distrustful. Only scum come out and want to be trusted. That's the difference.

[-L-]

FoS: Surprise Carcinogen

[imaginality]

Still very happy with my vote on Jase. Andrew94 has hit second on my scumlist with his last two posts (I'll go into more detail later). GroupThink is running third at the moment in a Schroedinger's-cat kind of way; keen to see what he says in his next post(s).

I liked how tarsonisocelot responded to the RVS case on her but she needs to start scumhunting.
Not sure why [L] felt the need to answer on Me=Weird's behalf just now?

Uncle Pain is a townread to me, as is yabbaguy.

[Jase]

Me=Weird. You are confusing me here. Only scum would want people to believe they are sincere. So...your list of scum suspects. Those are actualy your town reads. And every discussion and scum hunt should be read in complete reverese. That is g enuinely a stupid thing to say. When I say "Okay, you're right, your argument has swayed me" I actually mean that, and wanting you to read that as sincerity is not, spoiler alert, scummy. I also dislike being thrown on your scum-team list when all I've done is tell people that I don't generally resort to a good deal of sarcasm(above post being an exception.

Basically, what I'm asking is, if scum are the only ones who would want people to think they're being sincere, how is this game supposed to progress? I want some clarification on "Wanting people to take you at face value is something scum would want." or I'm going to start finding it an opportunistic reach.

QFT

L/Weird: Did you two even pay the slightest bit of attention to the context of that exchange? Good grief. Here's a quick summary of how that went down.

SC: Makes an point against me.
Jase: Responds with what amounts to "Nu-uh".
SC: Says yeah ok I see what you mean "nu-uh" indeed.
Jase: Can't tell if SC is being sarcastic or not and asks for clarification.
SC: Attempts to clarify that no sarcasm was used.
Jase: Isn't sure that this clarification is non-sarcastic but decides to just assume it's sincere.
SC: Says "Yeah it really is sincere"

You guys make it sound like SC said something retarded like "Believe me at all times !!111".

[Jase]

Andrew: You've been avoiding mentioning me in any significant way. Firstly, why have you been doing this? Secondly, gimme an opinion on me or my wagon or some fucking thing. Considering how prominent all this shit surrounding me is right now you really have no excuse to be silent about it.

L: Same as above. You've been ignoring the entire Jase wagon. First, Why? Second, want opinion etc.

Ocelot: Same as above. All you've said about me is that I'm confusing. 1st, etc. 2nd, etc.

GroupThink: *Additional Suspicion for having an awful first post (whatever you've heard this a couple times already)* Plus same as above etc etc etc. PLUS you have not said anything about anything else either. DO SO.

[andrew94]

@ imaginlity: im interested to know how my last 2 posts got into your scumlist

@ jase, i havent mentioned a lot of people, you pull my name out of the hat as if YOUR the only person i ever ignored. my thoughts are by doing that, you are trying to make me go down with you when you flip scum.a
about your post 78, i dont understand what 'context' of exchange... wtf are u talking about, how does it relate to the quote above.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

@Surprise_Carcinogen: Quite simply, townies are not concerned with convincing people that they are sincere - they're too busy being paranoid and distrustful. Only scum come out and want to be trusted. That's the difference.

On the other hand, I said this EXACT same thing before about Jase saying "I'm a good player" and was told that an acusation of this sort was scummy. Because town players are too busy to care if other people think they're good, only scum come out and want to be good. I'm not telling you "listen to everything I say." I'm saying if I say something, you disagree, and give me a good reason, and I say "Huh, good point." the "huh, good point" isn't sarcasm. I actually mean "good, fucking, point."

You're taking me grossly out of context to the point of misrepping me, and I dislike that two of you are doing it.


Andrew: the reason it's suspicious that you've been ignoring him is that he's at 4 votes, and is one of MANY people's prime targets of suspicion. You are also shooting yourself in the foot with the second part of what you said, because if you've been reading along, you'd understand perfectly the context of the exchange.


Also, I don't really g et the whole idea of "town aren't concerned with being believed." I kind of think the whole point of making a case is so people believe the same thing you do, and that X is scum. If I didn't expect people to listen to/believe me, I wouldn't end up posting much.

My favorite suspects at the moment are GroupThink, just because we're now a few days into the game, and he's got nothing but a blank vote out on the board. I'd almost accept someone not posting anything up until now because they're busy(easter and all) but to cast a vote without saying SOMETHING is suspect at best. I'm also not liking Andrew too much, but I'm hesitant to say anything concrete just yet as most of it is based on what I suspect to be his play style, as it seems the things I dislike about him are true across all of his plays. I still find it suspect, but not enough to knock GT from my

Fos:GroupThink

. Also, I'm going to

unvote

. Jase's recent posts do such unscummy things as undermining himself in reference to a prior conversation(which was admittedly a pointless one) and attempts to draw people's attention to his own suspiciousness. I'm inclined to think that this is legit town-play, since a scum would try and either deflect or defeat, not ask more people "what do YOU think about me." If he were fishing for scum-assistance, I think it would generally come without being asked for.

[tarsonisocelot]

@Surprise_Carcinogen: Quite simply, townies are not concerned with convincing people that they are sincere - they're too busy being paranoid and distrustful. Only scum come out and want to be trusted. That's the difference.

How are townies supposed to even fight against their own mislynch if they don't convince some other townies that they are trustworthy? How do they get their suspects wagoned or their townreads to not be lynched? This doesn't make sense to me. Being town seems to be more about working out where to place your trust than just not having any.

[tarsonisocelot]

Andrew: You've been avoiding mentioning me in any significant way. Firstly, why have you been doing this? Secondly, gimme an opinion on me or my wagon or some fucking thing. Considering how prominent all this shit surrounding me is right now you really have no excuse to be silent about it.

L: Same as above. You've been ignoring the entire Jase wagon. First, Why? Second, want opinion etc.

Ocelot: Same as above. All you've said about me is that I'm confusing. 1st, etc. 2nd, etc.

I was deciding whether or not I should join that wagon because your earlier posts were more than a little "wtf?" to me. Your last couple of posts have actually seemed town though.

[L]: My vote on you is no longer random. Your reasoning for voting me was very weak, as is your reasoning for FoSing SC.

Me=Weird has a nice first post, townread.
andrew94, null, dislike his playstyle.
imaginality I'm leaning town on.
yabbaguy made what I thought was obviously a non-serious post first. Several people then took it seriously. I'll take a better look at the reactions to it later.

[Jase]

@ jase, i havent mentioned a lot of people, you pull my name out of the hat as if YOUR the only person i ever ignored. my thoughts are by doing that, you are trying to make me go down with you when you flip scum.a
about your post 78, i dont understand what 'context' of exchange... wtf are u talking about, how does it relate to the quote above.

Yes, I picked you alone, COMPLETELY AT RANDOM to pester for ignoring me and (by extension) the largest wagon that's happened so far. I OBVIOUSLY did this because I am scum and I (for some fucking reason) believe that if you actually say what you think about my wagon that you'll be branded as my scumbuddy and speed lynched the day after my own INEVITABLE lynch.

THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE.

Really though, I asked the same thing from everyone who hasn't commented on me or the wagon against me. There's four people in total who've been ignoring me and I somewhat doubt we're looking at that many scum in a game this size. So obviously ignoring me wasn't a huge scum tell. Of course then YOU throw out some bullshit about how I must be an idiot for calling you (not anyone else, just you) out on that or something. What's worse you THEN go on to give no information WHEN SPECIFICALLY ASKED. I'm thinking that IS a pretty substantial scumtell.
Now then, are you gonna say something about my wagon or do you still think it's some sort of nefarious trap?

Now then (sigh) post 78, L and Imaginality (I think) called SC out for telling me (when I asked if he was being sarcastic) that I should take him at face value. And while it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for that to be scummy out of that context, IN context it's a laughable thing to try and throw in someones face. Does that clear up the meaning of that post somewhat?

[tarsonisocelot]

@ jase, i havent mentioned a lot of people, you pull my name out of the hat as if YOUR the only person i ever ignored. my thoughts are by doing that, you are trying to make me go down with you when you flip scum.a
about your post 78, i dont understand what 'context' of exchange... wtf are u talking about, how does it relate to the quote above.

Yes, I picked you alone, COMPLETELY AT RANDOM to pester for ignoring me and (by extension) the largest wagon that's happened so far. I OBVIOUSLY did this because I am scum and I (for some fucking reason) believe that if you actually say what you think about my wagon that you'll be branded as my scumbuddy and speed lynched the day after my own INEVITABLE lynch.

THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE.

Really though, I asked the same thing from everyone who hasn't commented on me or the wagon against me. There's four people in total who've been ignoring me and I somewhat doubt we're looking at that many scum in a game this size. So obviously ignoring me wasn't a huge scum tell. Of course then YOU throw out some bullshit about how I must be an idiot for calling you (not anyone else, just you) out on that or something. What's worse you THEN go on to give no information WHEN SPECIFICALLY ASKED. I'm thinking that IS a pretty substantial scumtell.
Now then, are you gonna say something about my wagon or do you still think it's some sort of nefarious trap?

Now then (sigh) post 78, L and Imaginality (I think) called SC out for telling me (when I asked if he was being sarcastic) that I should take him at face value. And while it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for that to be scummy out of that context, IN context it's a laughable thing to try and throw in someones face. Does that clear up the meaning of that post somewhat?

The only reason he's a null-read for me is because from what I gather playing like this is par for the course with him. He replaced out of an ongoing game I'm in and all of his posts were short, ungrammatical and without much, if any, logic behind them. No idea what his slot will flip but another player suggested policy lynching him before he'd really started posting so I gather he posts like that in most/all games.

[Jase]

Wait, you mean me or andrew?

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Unfortunately, he behaved exactly like this in my last game with him, and his flip was SK, so I have NO idea if this is normal for him or not. I'm inclined to not want to keep him around anyway, but at the same time, I'd rather grab someone that has a good shot at being scum before a policy lynch at this point.

I'm 99.9% sure he means andrew.

[-L-]

Jase, I wasn't speaking to you. I was speaking to surprise.
Tarson, your arguments and statements have been pointless.

Frankly, the idiocy in this thread coming from those who speak English as a second language [I'm ESL too, so don't hate.] not very well, to idiotic arguments between 4 of you makes this game not interesting. There's nothing to argue about because the arguments are idiotic. OMG. Do I sound haughty? I'm sorry. I'm just not interested because of the idiocy.

[tarsonisocelot]

Wait, you mean me or andrew?

andrew, I've never played with you.

[andrew94]

@ jase, i havent mentioned a lot of people, you pull my name out of the hat as if YOUR the only person i ever ignored. my thoughts are by doing that, you are trying to make me go down with you when you flip scum.a
about your post 78, i dont understand what 'context' of exchange... wtf are u talking about, how does it relate to the quote above.

Yes, I picked you alone, COMPLETELY AT RANDOM to pester for ignoring me and (by extension) the largest wagon that's happened so far. I OBVIOUSLY did this because I am scum and I (for some fucking reason) believe that if you actually say what you think about my wagon that you'll be branded as my scumbuddy and speed lynched the day after my own INEVITABLE lynch.

THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE.

Really though, I asked the same thing from everyone who hasn't commented on me or the wagon against me. There's four people in total who've been ignoring me and I somewhat doubt we're looking at that many scum in a game this size. So obviously ignoring me wasn't a huge scum tell. Of course then YOU throw out some bullshit about how I must be an idiot for calling you (not anyone else, just you) out on that or something. What's worse you THEN go on to give no information WHEN SPECIFICALLY ASKED. I'm thinking that IS a pretty substantial scumtell.
Now then, are you gonna say something about my wagon or do you still think it's some sort of nefarious trap?

Now then (sigh) post 78, L and Imaginality (I think) called SC out for telling me (when I asked if he was being sarcastic) that I should take him at face value. And while it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for that to be scummy out of that context, IN context it's a laughable thing to try and throw in someones face. Does that clear up the meaning of that post somewhat?

erm dude, read my post. im pretty sure it says that i have 'ignored' many ppl in this game.
so u picked me out for ignoring you...

not the other way around

[Uncle Pain]

Could we please stop the sematics debate and concentrate on finding scum? “is town supposed to convince others” or “is WTF a legitimate type of question” are not helpful.
Also, can we please be more friendly with each other? I don’t like the aggressive tone of some posts here. We’re here to have fun playing Mafia, not for jumping each other’s throat. If someone isn’t good at writing in English, he/she probably doesn’t mean to offend you. Be tolerant and ask questions if you don’t understand anything. (actually I’m feeling ridiculous for having to say this…)

Questions galore!

[L]

: What exactly do you find scummy about Surprise_Carcinogen’s view on things? Why are you (still) voting tarsonisocelot?

andrew94

: Who are your current main suspects?

imaginality

: Why do you read me as town?

Jase

: Would you tell us why you voted StefanB and switched your vote to yabbaguy when “asked” to?

Me=Weird

: What is it you find scummy about Surprise_Carcinogen?

StefanB

: It’s page 4 by now, did anything happen to your stance regarding yabbaguy?

Surprise_Carcinogen

: Who else (besides GroupThink) do you find scummy right now? Has Jase cleaned his slate or do you have remaining suspicions?

tarsonisocelot

: What do you think about the bandwagons on yabbaguy and Jase? Are they justified?

yabbaguy

: What information have you gained from your first post and the reactions to it?

Zdenek

: Care to give us some reads?

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

I do still find the same things Jase has done suspect, but at the same time, he's done things that are by FAR more of a town-read then the things he'd done before. I give him a positive score, if slightly. I'm inclined, as I stated, to find andrew suspicious, as he's behaving exactly as I've seen him behave in an anti-town role before, but more to the point, his behavior is u nproductive, and overly defensive, which I consider, again, unhelpful. I'm disliking the latest post by L. He says things like 'I wasn't talking to you' when a perfectly valid answer to something he stated is given, and makes statements like 'your arguments are pointless' with giving opinion. Then, a small bit of fluff on how he's not going to bother commenting or participating because...

[Zdenek]

Zed: Isn't my reasoning on yabba clear?

Not to me. Why was his reaction-test scummy?

More to the point, Zed, you have posted twice, and have barely done any scum-hunting yourself, going so far as to have a two-word reasoning for your vote, as well as a column of meaningless fluff

What did I say that was meaningless fluff?

Zdenek's first post looks suspicious for the same reason as Uncle Pain's.

Here is what you said about Uncle Pain's first post:

Uncle Pain: First post voting me=weird was off. Me=Weird had yet to post at that point (and still hasn't) but Uncle Pain didn't comment on anything about the first page and is probably trying to deflect attention away from his scum buddies.

I didn't vote for me=weird, so you can't mean that, the person I voted for had posted, and my vote did contain a comment about something that happened on the first page. Now, perhaps you thought I should have said more about something that happened on the first page, but the only things that you commented on were my vote and mr. pain, who posted just after me and had the last post on the page. So you didn't see anything worth commenting on there either. This makes me think that you flinging shit to see what sticks.

Zdenek: Why are rhetorical questions scummy?

The easy answer is my impression is that scum ask them more often than town. However, to be more detailed, asking them is a way to participate in the game without scum hunting, which is good for scum, and they disparage the person you are talking to, so they are a subtle form of mudslinging. However, that was not my main point just now, it's that you were defending asking one, and I don't understand your reasons for doing so.

I feel like Jase is being intentionally obnoxious and that this recent calling out of people who are ignoring him confirms this. Since he's aware of what he's doing, my read on him at the moment is leaning town because of the willingness he has to draw attention to himself.

Zdenek: Care to give us some reads?

My strongest reads are Jase and Yabba as town and Surprise Carcinogen and crazypianist as scum.

[imaginality]

From your posts:

iso#2 I agreed with your read of Jase as scummy
iso#3 was nicely rational, and I liked your summation of yabbaguy's gambit.
iso#4 points 1 and 2 against Jase were good and point 3 was honest - I don't think scum would have included that point in that way. You also defended yourself reasonably against Jase and yabbaguy and were right to pressure GroupThink about his unexplained-vote entry into the game.

Overall I get the sense that you're actively trying to figure out who's scum, and defending yourself calmly when people cast suspicion on you rather than getting riled by that or deflecting from their points. At this (still relatively early) stage, that's good enough for me to be leaning town on you.

[imaginality]

(That was a reply to Uncle Pain.)

[imaginality]

Posts 79 and 84 have swung me around on Jase. I can buy that he was reaction-fishing, and he's making good use of the reactions (or lack thereof) for scumhunting. So

Unvote

StefanB is my current scummiest read.

Vote: StefanB

Factors include:

I exspect him to answer why he did it, which gives imformation on yabbaguy, so I don't think that was completly usless, beside it was part of my reason for voting yabba so for me not completly usless

Not sure why he needed to vote him to ask him a question? Doesn't make much sense to me.

I would translate this as blablabla.
No real reason given, interesting.

This is gut but the 'interesting' sounds weaselly to me. Calling it scummy without saying it outright.

You reacted, your reaction doesn't read town, it reads scum, liking my vote.

Never explained why yabba's reaction 'reads scum'. And "I know of the danger of tunneling, but I like my vote on you." is a bit suspiciously pre-emptive.

Unvote

Yes I have gotten over emotion.

Interesting that the timing of this comes after yabbaguy's unvoted StefanB (calling him a tunnelling townie) and after crazypianist1116 said about StefanB, "The case for yabbaguy makes no sense whatsoever." I could see, if StefanB is scum, how he would think this was a good point to back down from his yabbaguy vote and use the tunnelling excuse.

Rest of this post is also bad. The defense/argument with Zdenek about active lurking seems antsy and jumpy rather than calm. There's a bit of fluffy not-doing-much stuff (e.g. asking GroupThink to say more, commenting that Me=Weird? is V/LA, asking why Uncle Pain doesn't want an avatar). But the really bad bit is:

I don't think [yabbaguy] is sure town, no, but there are people who are more suspicios.

Coming in the post where StefanB has just unvoted yabbaguy, this is plain scummy. If you think someone is more suspicious, name them and vote for them, please.

It's also a conveniently neutral stance on yabbaguy - "I don't think he's sure town" implying you think he's somewhat town, "there are people who are more suspicious" implying you still suspect him somewhat. I read that as scum wanting to keep suspicion on as many players as possible.

[-L-]

Also, can we please be more friendly with each other? I don’t like the aggressive tone of some posts here. We’re here to have fun playing Mafia, not for jumping each other’s throat. If someone isn’t good at writing in English, he/she probably doesn’t mean to offend you. Be tolerant and ask questions if you don’t understand anything. (actually I’m feeling ridiculous for having to say this…)

My post was totally out of character for my person, heh. I'm just fed up with trying to make sense of the foolishness that was happening prior to that post. I came off of a hard day at work, sat down to read yet again - and the idiocy overwhelmed me and my anger leftover from work poured into my text. I'm the most tolerant person you'll find. My apologies to the thread, but can we clean up the thread a little?

Also, English is my second language. I was not condemning him for it. Read my post again, will you?

Questions galore!

[L]

: What exactly do you find scummy about Surprise_Carcinogen’s view on things? Why are you (still) voting tarsonisocelot?

Surprise_carcinogen has made posts that hint that he knows the lay of the land, and also stated incorrect things about mafia theory. Those two combined make me suspect him, hence the FoS.

TO, on the other hand, has had a laid back affect, casually throwing out questions. From that first [second?] day, she set off my alarm bells. I voted her promptly - and I am just watching her for more confirmation, which she has been providing.

Also, I am a she, not a he.

[-L-]

Bah, forgot the first part of my post. This precedes the rest.

L: Same as above. You've been ignoring the entire Jase wagon. First, Why? Second, want opinion etc.

Jase: My opinion on your wagon is that it rose out of nothing and sits there, being piled on, for no valid, logical reasons. I do not see a reason to place my vote there. Not only that, but my intuition was telling me you aren't it.

Not sure why [L] felt the need to answer on Me=Weird's behalf just now?

I was speaking on no one's behalf. I was speaking of surprise_carcinogen, and also explaining why I suspect surprise_carcinogen - primarily because he misconstrued a prime concept of mafia.

What valid points have been brought up on Jase's wagon?

L/Weird: Did you two even pay the slightest bit of attention to the context of that exchange? Good grief. Here's a quick summary of how that went down.

Not really. I was speaking on my suspicion of surprise_carcinogen. See above.

@Surprise_Carcinogen: Quite simply, townies are not concerned with convincing people that they are sincere - they're too busy being paranoid and distrustful. Only scum come out and want to be trusted. That's the difference.

How are townies supposed to even fight against their own mislynch if they don't convince some other townies that they are trustworthy? How do they get their suspects wagoned or their townreads to not be lynched? This doesn't make sense to me. Being town seems to be more about working out where to place your trust than just not having any.

I never commented on townies fighting against their own mislynch. My comment is clearly pointing out the dichotomy between scum and townies - those who are vying for sincerity and those who are busy jumping at shadows. It is true that through the development of the game townies gain more trust in certain individuals…but most times it is the scum they are trusting.

I prefer to play by getting town reads on people, but never trusting them. Do you play differently, TO?

[Powerrox93]

Guys, please clam down, the vocabulary level here is starting to get out of hand.