Mini1147-Royal Mafia at the Round Table (Game Over!)

Twistedspoon · Post Post #625 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:27 am

Rhinox wrote: TWISTED HAS NO REASON TO FAKE A GUILTY AS SCUM IN THIS SITUATION. HE WOULD FAKE AN INNO OR BE ROLEBLOCKED. TWISTED IS TOWN, NE IS SCUM. LYNCH NE!!!

Thankyou very much Rhinox

Rhinox has got it right, so let's lynch NE

farside22 · Post Post #626 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:29 am

Duplicity wrote: 1. Based upon NE and TS's interactions would you rule anyone out as mafia or be more inclined to believe someone in particular was mafia in light of their flip?

If NE flipped scum I would look at Rhinox and EA the most. EA due to pushing on Oso and flip flopping without answering questions. Rhinox (see below). As for TS I would look more at Maxous. Not sure about who else.

2. What's your current read on Rhinox?

Rhinox is floating by. He ask questions but doesn't push toward one person or the other. He had very little interaction with NE, calls him null but would lynch him or MW. I feel this is light bussing for no reason.

3. What do you make out of TwistedSpoon claiming he believed Ender due to it being a "One-shot" themed game when Ender was the only person who had claimed a One Shot role?

I'm pretty certain Jav claimed day vig during the same time. A one shot day vig is pretty normal to me, but I have to remind myself that TS is more newb so I guess I should take that will a grain of salt
.

Answers in bold.

EA: Did you read the link that Jav posted from TS's game and compare the fake claim from that game and this? Same question to Maxous?

farside22 · Post Post #627 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:32 am

Rhinox wrote:WTF WHY IS NE NOT BEING LYNCH WITH A FUCKING PASSION YET!

Maxous wrote:@Farside and Rhinox: Why did the two of you instantly beleive the result from Twistedspoon? As far as I remember he was on both of your suspect lists.
I didn't even think about a framer. Its a role I've never seen before. Is it even allowed in normals?
If NE had claimed miller after being investigated, my vote would be locked on him anyways.

TWISTED HAS NO REASON TO FAKE A GUILTY AS SCUM IN THIS SITUATION. HE WOULD FAKE AN INNO OR BE ROLEBLOCKED. TWISTED IS TOWN, NE IS SCUM. LYNCH NE!!!

I'm getting the feeling the push to put doubt in TS's claim and get him lynched instead is heavily scum-backed. I'm looking at you EA and Farside. Farside, that "I Think..." semantics argument is absolutely crap. OK add Duplicity to this list as well.

Oh so Oso comes up with an answer to a question not asked and he is scummy, but TS posting an "I think" he is scum comment with a quick response after is town.

Does not compute!

Twistedspoon · Post Post #628 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:35 am

farside22 wrote:Did you read the link that Jav posted from TS's game and compare the fake claim from that game and this? Same question to Maxous?

the link I provided myself?

That game was completely different. Firstly, I was playing as scum in that game

secondly the fakeclaim from that game was pretty much a page before the endgame. I could've done anything I wanted to then and it wouldn't have mattered. The lynch for that they had already been decided.
I just claimed deputy then for funzies :3

I'm a one-shot cop and NE is 99% scum

lynch away please

Duplicity · Post Post #629 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:45 am

Rhinox wrote: TWISTED HAS NO REASON TO FAKE A GUILTY AS SCUM IN THIS SITUATION. HE WOULD FAKE AN INNO OR BE ROLEBLOCKED. TWISTED IS TOWN, NE IS SCUM. LYNCH NE!!!

Calm down, stop spamming like a moron and think about this for two seconds. Throughout majority of yesterday Twisted was FoS'ed by a large portion of the players in the game. The suspicion towards him meant the likelyhood that he would get lynched today was incredibly high to begin with. Knowing that there's a lot of suspicion towards him the best tactic possible for him to do as mafia is to fake a guilty, push on it and remove another msylnch the town have.

Farside22 wrote: I'm pretty certain Jav claimed day vig during the same time. A one shot day vig is pretty normal to me, but I have to remind myself that TS is more newb so I guess I should take that will a grain of salt.

Jav hadn't stated he was a one-shot vig at that point, just that he was a day-vig.

Rhinox · Post Post #630 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:56 am

farside22 wrote:
Rhinox wrote:WTF WHY IS NE NOT BEING LYNCH WITH A FUCKING PASSION YET!

Maxous wrote:@Farside and Rhinox: Why did the two of you instantly beleive the result from Twistedspoon? As far as I remember he was on both of your suspect lists.
I didn't even think about a framer. Its a role I've never seen before. Is it even allowed in normals?
If NE had claimed miller after being investigated, my vote would be locked on him anyways.

TWISTED HAS NO REASON TO FAKE A GUILTY AS SCUM IN THIS SITUATION. HE WOULD FAKE AN INNO OR BE ROLEBLOCKED. TWISTED IS TOWN, NE IS SCUM. LYNCH NE!!!

I'm getting the feeling the push to put doubt in TS's claim and get him lynched instead is heavily scum-backed. I'm looking at you EA and Farside. Farside, that "I Think..." semantics argument is absolutely crap. OK add Duplicity to this list as well.
Oh so Oso comes up with an answer to a question not asked and he is scummy, but TS posting an "I think" he is scum comment with a quick response after is town.

Does not compute!

LOL completely different situations.

Thanks for claiming scum with NE.

Javert · Post Post #631 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:47 am

To those who argue that TwistedSpoon has "no reason" to fake a guilty:

If we assume a scum-group of three players, and a nightkill on a Townsperson every night, then scum need

two

mislynches to win the game while we need three

correct

lynches to win the game. In this situation, the scum can play a game of attrition: they are more than happy to make a one-for-one trade. If scum can get us to mislynch today, then we will be in a perpetual state of Lynch-or-Lose, which is very much to scum's advantage.

Try looking at the game from the larger perspective. Scum trade for Town all the time. And although Twistedspoon is a newb himself, if he is scum then he presumably has two partners who are likely more experienced than him, and who could easily have planned alongside Twistedspoon to say "just claim a guilty on X player who is unclaimed."

Additionally, anybody who read Day One with any care would know that if Twistedspoon claimed an innocent today, then we might have lynched Twistedspoon regardless -- because of the suspicion on him from Day One. By claiming a guilty, he at least forces the issue and gives us direction for votes, whereas claiming an innocent result (or "no result") would not give him any good reason for us to vote somebody besides himself.

Rhinox · Post Post #632 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:09 am

Try looking at the game from the larger perspective. Scum trade for Town all the time. And although Twistedspoon is a newb himself, if he is scum then he presumably has two partners who are likely more experienced than him, and who could easily have planned alongside Twistedspoon to say "just claim a guilty on X player who is unclaimed."

So who are the 2 scum partners rushing to lynch NE then as part of this big scum plan? As of the last vote count, it was, just me and TS voting for NE. Duplicity can answer as well since he basically said the same thing.

The big push today is in the corner of trying to get TS lynched. That seems a lot more like the "trying to force a mislynch" scenario that you described.

Here's another reason why TS is town:

You guys are saying:
Inno or No result: TS was probably going to get lynched anyways.
Guilty: ZOMG TS IS SCUM because if he claimed inno or no result he was going to get lynched anyways.

So, this being the case, WHY THE HELL DIDN'T YOU ALL LYNCH HIM YESTERDAY?? NO! TS WILL NOT BE LYNCHED TODAY, ON THE BASIS OF "ANY CLAIMED RESULT MEANS HE IS SCUM". THAT'S FACKING RETURDED.

Duplicity · Post Post #633 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:13 am

Rhinox, why would his scum partners jump on board with the lynch right away? Doing so would expose them, therefore they rather fence-sit over his allignment and buss if need by, otherwise they'll vote out NE.

The argument isn't that he's mafia because he claims to have a guilty, the argument is that the fact he claimed to have a guilty is a null-tell, not a zomgstrongtowntell like you're attempting to make it out.

Rhinox · Post Post #634 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:27 am

Duplicity wrote:Rhinox, why would his scum partners jump on board with the lynch right away? Doing so would expose them, therefore they rather fence-sit over his allignment and buss if need by, otherwise they'll vote out NE.

The argument isn't that he's mafia because he claims to have a guilty, the argument is that the fact he claimed to have a guilty is a null-tell, not a zomgstrongtowntell like you're attempting to make it out.

DON'T DODGE THE QUESTION!

Tell me who his scum partners are sitting back fencesitting ready to bus then!

I'm not saying its a town tell, I'm basically saying this:

If TS was so scummy that he was such the obvious lynch choice today, then everybody should have been wanting to lynch him yesterday rather than HERP DERP let's let him live and see a result. Now, OH LOOK A RESULT TS is scum regardless of what result he would have claimed.... Wat?

I'm saying, its very obvious scum are trying to get TS mislynched first. Otherwise, if TS was SOOOO scummy he was going to be lynched today regardless, then he would have been lynched yesterday rather than deadline lynching M=W.

Duplicity · Post Post #635 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:30 am

Rhinox wrote:Tell me who his scum partners are sitting back fencesitting ready to bus then!

I believe I've stated my scum-reads already, but if you want me to repeat it then I will, I believe his partners are in Maxous/Farside/You.

Rhinox wrote:If TS was so scummy that he was such the obvious lynch choice today, then everybody should have been wanting to lynch him yesterday rather than HERP DERP let's let him live and see a result. Now, OH LOOK A RESULT TS is scum regardless of what result he would have claimed.... Wat?

Rest assured, I would have lynched him yesterday if I was in the game then.

Rhinox · Post Post #636 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:51 am

Yeah I was meaning to ask you about why I'm on your list by the way. Firstly, you think I fit the description of what you think scum would do today:

duplicity wrote:why would his scum partners jump on board with the lynch right away? Doing so would expose them, therefore they rather fence-sit over his allignment and buss if need by, otherwise they'll vote out NE.

Secondly, this is all you've said about me:

Rhinox - Leaning Scum.
<snip>
Rhinox viewtopic.php?p=2929096#p2929096 - Good logic, seems overly coaching rather than stating a subjective opinion on Osos actions though.
<snip>
Rhinox viewtopic.php?p=2965070#p2965070 - Read later.

So I'm scum because of good logic, a post you said you'd read later, and because I'm doing the opposite of what you just told me you thought scum would be doing regarding NE and TS?

Duplicity · Post Post #637 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:57 am

Rhinox wrote:Yeah I was meaning to ask you about why I'm on your list by the way.

I'll go into it in more depth later, in the middle of typing up the rest of my reads so expect it quite soon, but the underlying reason is mainly due to the fact you slide by through most of day one without showing any real strong opinions. The posts you did made were logical but involved very small amounts of subjective opinions. Your play has been the polar opposite today though, not exactly sure what to make of it yet.

Javert · Post Post #638 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:19 am

Rhinox,

I

was

voting Twistedspoon yesterday at deadline. I

did

want him lynched yesterday.

The reason Twistedspoon was kept alive, to the best of my knowledge, is so that he would have a result today. That way,

if

he is Town, we have a result to use. And if he is scum, then hopefully his "result" will be informative later in the game. I personally did not find that reasoning persuasive enough for me to move my vote elsewhere, but it was obvious this was generally the justification used yesterday.

Feel free to read over Twistedspoon and decide if you think he is scum. But as I have said, the fact that he is claiming a guilty result does

not

make him more likely to be Town, as Duplicity has already explained.

Twistedspoon · Post Post #639 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:39 am

Javert wrote: The reason Twistedspoon was kept alive, to the best of my knowledge, is so that he would have a result today.

that makes no sense

the same could have applied to ender, who you shot :/

Javert · Post Post #640 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:46 am

Twistedspoon wrote:
Javert wrote: The reason Twistedspoon was kept alive, to the best of my knowledge, is so that he would have a result today.
that makes no sense

the same could have applied to ender, who you shot :/

...

Yes,

I

shot ender241. That was

my

decision, not the decision that necessarily voice of the Town. Exactly what point are you trying to make with this post?

Twistedspoon · Post Post #641 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:49 am

well you say you kept me alive so I could investigate but so could ender

whatever, this is getting nowhere. Javert is a confirmed town and NE is scum

the direction is obvious

Javert · Post Post #642 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:52 am

I said the reason

other

players left you alive is so you would claim an investigation today. I, frankly, could care less.

Twistedspoon · Post Post #643 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:53 am

fine

well I did my investigation and I got Guilty on NE

That's all I know

Maxous · Post Post #644 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:07 am

@Farside: You took that bolded quote completely out of context here
He was not questioning his sanity he was telling NE 'either you prove this or your scum.'
Which is ironically the kind of certainly you state is absent from him(which is why you said you changed your vote)

farside22 wrote: EA: Did you read the link that Jav posted from TS's game and compare the fake claim from that game and this? Same question to Maxous?

Nope.

Javert wrote:To those who argue that TwistedSpoon has "no reason" to fake a guilty:

If we assume a scum-group of three players, and a nightkill on a Townsperson every night, then scum need
two
mislynches to win the game while we need three
correct
lynches to win the game. In this situation, the scum can play a game of attrition: they are more than happy to make a one-for-one trade. If scum can get us to mislynch today, then we will be in a perpetual state of Lynch-or-Lose, which is very much to scum's advantage.

But there was no guarantee that TS was going to be lynched today. How many people were willing to vote for him at the end of Day 1?

Rhinox wrote: I'm not saying its a town tell, I'm basically saying this:

But you did say it was a town-tell

Rhinox wrote: Here's another reason why TS is town:
etc. etc.

Rhinox wrote: I'm saying, its very obvious scum are trying to get TS mislynched first.

I also think so.

Prosaurus · Post Post #645 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:40 am

Rhinox wrote:TWISTED HAS NO REASON TO FAKE A GUILTY AS SCUM IN THIS SITUATION. HE WOULD FAKE AN INNO OR BE ROLEBLOCKED. TWISTED IS TOWN, NE IS SCUM. LYNCH NE!!!

Me wrote:The thing is, if we choose the townie first, scum have the upper hand. It'd be:
D1 10Town 3Scum (Lose 3 town)
D2 7Town 3Scum (Lose 2 town)
D3 5Town 3Scum (Lose 1 town, 1 Scum)
D4 4Town 2Scum.
Unless of course we have a doctor. If we get scum first:
D2 7Town 3Scum (Lose 1 scum, 1 town)
D3 6Town 2Scum.
So I would recommend we put some thought into this.

Tell me you read this...

Necessary Evil · Post Post #646 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:07 pm

Maxous wrote:
farside22 wrote: Really why do you believe it?
Also my suspicion of TS yesterday and his post (which I believe is a scum slip) = not buying it doesn't make sense to you.
Exactly. You had all this suspicion of TS from yesterday.
He comes out with a guilty. You instantly vote for NE, despite your suspicion. Because TS suspected NE yesterday.
TS says 'I think' he is mafia, immediatly correcting it as 'I know' unless there is a framer but he is confident about it.
And that is all it takes for you to change your mind about voting NE? It's suspect. You changed your stance too easily over little.

It's not little at all. TS is doing nothing today besides trying to get me lynched. That indicates a high degree of confidence in his scum read on me. There's no reason for him to think that there is a framer, or for anybody else to think that. Cop sanity is guaranteed in normals. TS was expressing doubt in his guilty result to give him an out. When I flip town, he'll insist that there is a framer or something that altered his result. He knows he'll be lynched if he doesn't give himself some kind of out.

Maxous wrote:
farside22 wrote: point.
At Maxous and anyone else in the game. Have you ever seen a person claim cop and question it?
Yes.
And by "question it" you mean wondering if there is a framer? How can a cop know for sure?
Even if you are a cop the only people that know for sure are mafia. There is usually a possibility that your results can be manipulated, unless the set-up states otherwise.
The reason I have'nt voted NE is in case there is a framer. With TS voting NE yesterday it is feasible the mafia could accurately guess who TS would investigate.
That being said I currently don't think so, but the possibility is worth exploring.

Do you have any reason to think there is a framer? Does anybody? How do you suggest we explore this possibility?

Rhinox wrote:WTF WHY IS NE NOT BEING LYNCH WITH A FUCKING PASSION YET!

Once again, why are you trying to rush through the day? Why do I have to be lynched right now?

I was going to explain to Rhinox why TS would fake a guilty today, but Duplicity and Javert have taken the words out of my mouth... or keyboard, or whatever. To everybody who wants to lynch me today: how could TS survive without claimig a guilty? What other plan could work for him and why?

Quilford · Post Post #647 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:29 pm

Duplicity wrote:What do you make out of TwistedSpoon claiming he believed Ender due to it being a "One-shot" themed game when Ender was the only person who had claimed a One Shot role?

Maxous wrote:No offence to Twistedspoon but it would be serious quick thinking to do this in the next post
2 minutes
after Ender's claim.

Anyone who thinks TS is scum after this is also scum.

Getting bad vibes from farside.

Prosaurus · Post Post #648 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:27 pm

I feel so ignored. I said why scum could/would do it first!

farside22 · Post Post #649 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:25 pm

Rhinox wrote:
farside22 wrote:
Rhinox wrote:WTF WHY IS NE NOT BEING LYNCH WITH A FUCKING PASSION YET!

Maxous wrote:@Farside and Rhinox: Why did the two of you instantly beleive the result from Twistedspoon? As far as I remember he was on both of your suspect lists.
I didn't even think about a framer. Its a role I've never seen before. Is it even allowed in normals?
If NE had claimed miller after being investigated, my vote would be locked on him anyways.

TWISTED HAS NO REASON TO FAKE A GUILTY AS SCUM IN THIS SITUATION. HE WOULD FAKE AN INNO OR BE ROLEBLOCKED. TWISTED IS TOWN, NE IS SCUM. LYNCH NE!!!

I'm getting the feeling the push to put doubt in TS's claim and get him lynched instead is heavily scum-backed. I'm looking at you EA and Farside. Farside, that "I Think..." semantics argument is absolutely crap. OK add Duplicity to this list as well.
Oh so Oso comes up with an answer to a question not asked and he is scummy, but TS posting an "I think" he is scum comment with a quick response after is town.

Does not compute!
LOL completely different situations.

Thanks for claiming scum with NE.

How is it different. What differences are they?

Jav hadn't stated he was a one-shot vig at that point, just that he was a day-vig.

Like I said most every day vig I have run across is one shot. I don't know if TS has ever had seen a day vig in a game. TS: Have you ever seen a day vig in a game before?