Mini 1140 - Mafia Mishmash...Game Over!!

[bgg1996]

Loving how Bgg is ignoring the fact that a NORMAL game with SCUM MASONS has just finished.

The last mini normal with a redirector of any kind, according to ctrl-f, was #209. It was a one-shot cop redirector.
Do you honestly expect me to believe that in addition to the weak doctor, sledgehammer, and cop that have already died, with a claimed 1-shot jailkeeper, that there is also a role that hasn't been used for over 800 games?



I also agree that your defense of your role is suspiscious. If you're town and you hear that your role is suspiscious, you don't already have a defense planned out for it.


player1: Your roleclaim isn't allowed in normal games.
player2: No, I checked, see? There's allowed one or two unusual roles.
player1: sledgehammer and weak doctor.
player2: O.0 [

guess i should've claimed something else...

] You're all idiots, I'm going to leave, so that I can run out the clock for a no-lynch.

Look everybody, are we really going to stand by as somebody claimed

a role that hasn't been used for over 800 games

?

And even then, it was weaker, as it would only work on cops.

[Haylen]

Go away. I don't want to talk to you right now. I want to talk to a doctor who can stop me getting pissy over an ear infection. Seriously, I don't get why I can't shove sharp objects in my ear if if I'm going to get an infection anyway.

Oh hey, why I'm pissy I might as well rant about stuff that winds me up in games.
How about, people who use effing stupid reasons to lynch you and people who follow them. FFS, I thought I was stupid but really that kicks the bucket.
Here's another one, people who vote for you or think your scum AND THEN PROVIDE NO REASONS, then people agree with them anyway. Seriously, WTF?
People who speculate really stupid things like this:

player2: O.0 [guess i should've claimed something else...] You're all idiots, I'm going to leave, so that I can run out the clock for a no-lynch.

STFU. If you really knew what was going through my head or qualify to judge, you'd know I'm not lying about my role and the reason I'm annoyed is for actions like the above combined with significant pain I'm experiencing.
People who couldn't be bothered to look into the rules of normal reviewing but are prepared to judge someone based on it without looking at the evidence.
People who don't understand the difference between lurking and active lurking.
The ultimate: Self hammerers and cheaters, they really take the biscuit.

If I come back from sleeping to find myself lynched, a) I'm going to be even more pissy. b) look at those who are arguing this stupid fucking argument.

[bgg1996]

Go away. I don't want to talk to you right now. I want to talk to a doctor who can stop me getting pissy over an ear infection. Seriously, I don't get why I can't shove sharp objects in my ear if if I'm going to get an infection anyway.

Because you could go deaf. Also, internal bleeding.

Oh hey, why I'm pissy I might as well rant about stuff that winds me up in games.
How about, people who use effing stupid reasons to lynch you and people who follow them. FFS, I thought I was stupid but really that kicks the bucket.
Here's another one, people who vote for you or think your scum AND THEN PROVIDE NO REASONS, then people agree with them anyway. Seriously, WTF?

You claimed a role that is against the current rules of normal games.

People who speculate really stupid things like this:

player2: O.0 [guess i should've claimed something else...] You're all idiots, I'm going to leave, so that I can run out the clock for a no-lynch.

STFU. If you really knew what was going through my head or qualify to judge, you'd know I'm not lying about my role and the reason I'm annoyed is for actions like the above combined with significant pain I'm experiencing.

I'm sorry that you have an ear infection, but that really isn't my problem. I don't know what's going through your head because I am not a mind reader. If I was, I would have much better things to do than sitting around playing mafia.

People who couldn't be bothered to look into the rules of normal reviewing but are prepared to judge someone based on it without looking at the evidence.
People who don't understand the difference between lurking and active lurking.
The ultimate: Self hammerers and cheaters, they really take the biscuit.

Closed Normal Games should satisfy the following rules:
Mechanics which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
Night action redirection (no Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, or Redirector).
Roles which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
Redirector.
New/variant roles may be included in limited number (no more than 1 in a Mini, 2 in a Large), and should be based on the usual role mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Blocking, Voting, Enabling and Communication.

One-shot redirector violates all of these rules. And there is already a sledgehammer, and weak doctor, making 2 unusual roles.

If I come back from sleeping to find myself lynched, a) I'm going to be even more pissy. b) look at those who are arguing this stupid fucking argument.

I would be pissy (

whatever that means

) too, if I was given a role that

is not allowed in closed normal games.

Open and Semi-Open Games can ignore some of these restrictions; though this section is still under construction.

So your open normal example doesn't really matter one bit.



Ignoring all of these, redirector has only been used

once

in all mini normal games, as a one-shot cop redirector in mini #209. The chance that you have it now are less than 1%.

[vollkan]

Reading over the start of the latest discussion, I basically agree with SB's 1169. The Reviewers are not idiots and would not have allowed multiple non-normal roles into a normal game - not only because, obviously, it makes the game non-normal but also because it would lead to precisely this sort of setup debating. Which means that the only logical conclusion is that Haylen is fakeclaiming.

Frankly, the rationale for NLing all but evaporates in these circumstances, since we have as clear and compelling evidence as is really possible that Haylen is scum (on top of the history of her slot).

She explained why her role can be in the game, why should she be outraged and surprised if she moderated a game that had a couple of these 'unusual' or whatever roles?

She cited the inclusion of GF, which is explicitly mentioned as a normal role to validate her claim of redirector, which is explicitly non-normal. Mentioning a mini-normal with a GF does nothing to make her claim more believable. If she can remember what the other roles are and show that they were outside the normal rules of the time, I would be willing to listen.

I think a townie's natural reaction to someone pointing out that their claim is contrary to the rules of the game would be to read the rules, recognize that they've been somewhat screwed over by the mod, and protest that regardless of the clearly stated rules, he or she did in fact receive that role. Instead, Haylen is trying to argue that her role is allowable without giving any compelling evidence. I see her putting more effort into showing that her claimed role is feasible than that she actually received that role. I think this is because she fake claimed and she has a bit of pride on the line if she's lynched on the basis of a foolish role choice.

Agreed. If SB had merely told her that the role isn't normal, without quoting the rules, it might have made sense for her to go looking for other games. But faced with the rules which are clear on this point, it's unnatural for her immediate response to be to defend the claim when, if you genuinely held the role, you'd immediately see it as a problem with the

moderator

rather than the claim.

Which brings me to another point:

@MOD: Does this game depart from the normal requirements as outlined on the wiki? I get that you might feel that it would be inappropriate to do so, but the fact is that, on joining a normal game, the players are meant to be able to assume that the game

is

normal; if we can't make that assumption here, you need to tell us asap.

[Hinduragi]

Just so you all know, I am still reading and I am working on a catchup post as I read through everything.

[Regfan]

Found this: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 70&start=0
"Redirection roles are banned on the basis that it isn't a reasonable expectation for investigative roles to believe their results are actually on someone else, or that vigs could potentially kill someone they didn't mean to. Some people showed support for the possibility of redirected players knowing they've been directed elsewhere - but to me, that seems to completely undermine the point of redirection?"

[Regfan]

Welcome to Mini Normal 1140 - Mafia Mishmash.
Thanks to reviewers Hoopla, SpyreX and MichaelSableHeart and to whomever I borrowed and tweaked my rules from.

Hoopla reviewed this setup, therefore I see no possible way that Haylens role is in the game.

Hind, I suggest you finish your catch-up as soon as you can and then hammer.

[vollkan]

Good find Regfan; that pretty much answers my question to the mod. Really only waiting on Hinduragi to catch up now.

[Haylen]

If there isn't a shred of doubt that I'm scum then why haven't I been lynched yet?

We think they're trying to get us to use our one shot, doesn't we? My precious...

[Regfan]

If there isn't a shred of doubt that I'm scum then why haven't I been lynched yet?

You haven't been lynched yet because I want Hind to state his reads before a lynch occurs.

We think they're trying to get us to use our one shot, doesn't we? My precious...

English please?

[subgenius]

English please?

Tolkien parody is the highest form of English, rivaled in sophistication and beauty only by recitations of Monty Python sketches.

We think they're trying to get us to use our one shot, doesn't we? My precious...

To continue the parody theme:
Haylen Bond: Do you expect me to use my one shot?
Subfinger: No, Ms. Haylen, I expect you to die!

I don't think anyone believes your claim at this point, so it would make little sense to let you live with the expectation that you'd use your ability.

[Haylen]

Surely that was obvious. You plan on not lynching me, then forcing me to use it during the night to confirm myself in some way. Probably by getting Scott Faker to target me. Then you find that I wasn't jailkeeped and Scott never targetted me in the first place!

Now this is where you go and look at people previous games to see if they have experience in playing normal games or modding them because if this is right then why the hell hasn't anyone mentioned it before?

Agreed. If SB had merely told her that the role isn't normal, without quoting the rules, it might have made sense for her to go looking for other games.

Got distracted by Portal. And didn't I find a perfectly good game. Normal Requirements are the same for all normal games, whether they're open setuped or not. Except in the Open Queue.

[Duplicity]

That's a blatant lie Haylen, at the bottom of the rules linked it says: Open and Semi-Open Games can ignore some of these restrictions; will add a separate section for that.

[Haylen]

And you are?

[Regfan]

Sorry, posted on the wrong account.

[vollkan]

It's safe to say that Haylen's claim is pining for the fjords

[Haylen]

Votecount 3.7:

Hinduragi - 2 (Scott Brosius, Maxous)
No Lynch - 1 (vollkan)
Haylen: Scott, Regfan, Subgenius, Bgg

Not voting: (subgenius, Hinduragi, Haylen, Regfan)

With 8 players left it’s 5 to lynch.

------
To Mafiascum.net Minions,
Today is the day. It's the day that I confess to my lies and explain how they came about. Bare in mind, my friends, this was not my fault. I lynched people, I kill people, I intentionally hurt people. But I have no regrets. Nothing is as it seems, I add a clause to my modded games saying 'Expect the Unexpected', this isn't for fun, it's a warning. I am not whom you think I am. They...changed me, something I never believed to be possible. It all happened on one fateful days, one event spiralled and caused an explosive chain of events. Until it happened, suddenly I wasn't in control.

I joined this website as a newbie on April Fools Day 2009, a young 18 year old looking for a bit of fun. I guess I got it in some ways, just it wasn't my idea of fun. As a newbie fresh out of my first newbie game, I decided to give a mini normal a go (to this day, it's the only game number I've remembered. Mini 800). It started out pretty cool. But then as players started to leave and be replaced, the corruption began. An old player by the name of 'Ether' extended an offer to me...to become a Mith Minion. Craving to be accepted as part of a group, I gave a joyful 'Yes' in reply. In reality, I should have listened to Incognito and camn when they tried to convince me everyone's corrupt. But I'm a pretty stubborn young lady, so Ether's words overruled theirs.

It was fun for a while, but then the weirdness started. On the missions we were granted by the High Overlord himself, things started to go wrong. Firstly it was silly little things like my uniform being different to the other girls, then it esculated. My equipment started going missing. One the mission to destroy Bluehost, my flame gun disappeared. The only people who had access to the changing rooms and lockers were my fellow minions. So I burrowed an ordinary gun. Our plan seemed to be working; every day we were invading another one of their offices or meeting rooms. The building looked very much like the one where Portal is set, the only difference was we didn't have weird guns like on there. Soon, we had covered a vast area and the only thing left to do was attack Bluehost itself. The plan was simple: split into groups and listen to all instructions given. But something clicked in my head at that very moment. We were killing REAL PEOPLE. People with friends and families and aspirations. People just like us. I tried to convince the others of my brainwave but was accused of being a traitor; knocked out and locked in a cupboard for the night. I was unamused and displayed total apathy when they released me the next day. Their intentions were obvious: help destroy Bluehost. Or die. So I carried on. I tried not to kill anybody but in the end this wasn't possible. I shot Bluehost's primary guard 3 times. 1.2.3. In the chest, stomach and head. Blood splattered against the wall behind him and flowed out of his body like a river of evil. That's what I was part of. Evil.

I thought after destroying Bluehost, they would leave me alone. This was sadly not the case. I was harrassed, my parents and neighbours were threatened. I was held there doing their bidding for a further two weeks. During those two weeks I concocted numerous escape plans, but each of them were pre-empted. One evening, however, when I was at dinner; I managed to slip away from everyone else. If I couldn't escape, I might as well explore and see what was really going on here. I hid being pillars and round corners to avoid being seen, this was what I was used to doing, I was an expert. My heart pounded whenever I heard a noise or saw anything out of the corner of my ear. Illusions. I went down and down, going deeper and deeper, the corridors got thinner and darker. Security got tighter. But that I couldn't understand, the basement had been abandoned for years! There was only one door open, and that appeared to be an accident. I slipped through it in case someone was in there ready to ambush me. I was shocked at what I saw.

Clones. There were clones of every player in the game. I knew them well enough to know very few of them were twins. But these looked exactly like their biological counterparts. Computers put them through complicated logic and agility tests. I was fascinated to note that they completely ignored me. It was obvious what was going on here. The High Overlord was planning to create super players! Those who could play mafia using a sense of logic that nobody else in the world possessed. Lost in my thoughts, I did not notice guards creeping up behind me. I was soon consumed by darkness.

Here I am now, I'm locked in a cell; facing my last day alive on Earth and in this game. I found a dusty old computer in a box of broken belongings and managed to fix it and write you this warning. Tell everyone you know. Trust no one. Right now, the most important thing you can do is stay alive. Don't believe a word people say. It started with my favourite weapon going missing and is resulting in my death.

There is now only one thing left for me to do. Death is inevitable. But I'm not going to let it be at the hands of those monsters. Slowly, I am going to pull out a gun I have hidden away. It contains one bullet. That one bullet will be my freedom. I hold it to my head and speak my last words.

Unvote. Vote Haylen

Don't mourn for me, for I am free.

[Regfan]

I'm an idiot, I knew she was going to self-hammer and didn't unvote.

[Regfan]

This likely means that CMAR is indeed town, and Subs attack at those voting him means he's probably town as well. The manner in which it was pointed out as well leads me to believe that CKDs spot is town leaving:

-Maxous
-Volkan

Of those I'm most certain of Maxous being mafia.

[subgenius]

I agree. Max is next in line in my book.

[Scott Brosius]

Hind should jail tonight.

[Hinduragi]

Well, since I planned to try and keep doing the rest of my reread today but may not get to post my thoughts, here is the wall I was preparing. It isn't finished yet, but I may as well post it so I can get some answers/put some opinions up to where I'm at in the game before the mod comes back.

1. What's your time-zone
2. Have you played with anyone in here before, if so what was their play-style like? (Remember you can't mention ongoing games)
3. Do you prefer being town or mafia generally?
4. How often are you likely to post?
5. Do you generally like leading or following?

1. Eastern (GMT-5)
2. I've played with vollkan, Scott, and Haylen. Vollkan is very analytical and tends to post walls. He's kind of a love-him or hate-him type of guy. He's also very hard to incriminate because he can usually make something that is a scum-tell look illogical; that or he makes no mistakes, which is highly unlikely. I don't think I can read him well. Scott was, well, maybe his play was different since, if I recall, he was a PR, but he seemed like a gut type of person, almost the opposite of vollkan. Maybe he isn't, I don't know. He was lying low for most of that game. Haylen was v/L-A for the time I played with her. She temp-replaced in for a friend, posted a couple of times(everyone was mad at her for replacing in and not posting so she got attacked), mainly angry posts, so I'm assuming that isn't her actual playstyle.
3. Town.
4. My activity goes up and down but fairly often.
5. Leading.

vollkan, are there walls in all the games you're in? I'm not even to page 3 and I've seen consistent wall o' text'ing.

So, let's get this straight for Day 1. The game moves out of RVS and Magnetic claims with 1 vote on him. Yeah, this was trolling and, since he's town, mafia and town alike would've lynched him so there isn't a lot of info there. What is to note is the unvoting being done. Tcl obviously had good reason considering his role. Ckd's unvote and vote on Maxous seems like an attempt to garner townie brownies and, at the same time, buddy with bgg who asked for unvotes in order to extend the day and get more info. The whole thing against bgg seems a little over the top, however he doesn't help at all by avoiding questions that would take typing out two names to answer. SC's hammer on Magnetic in reply to bgg was unneeded, as if he was taking the game and making it personal. My predecessor's play really sucks. Yura's most likely obv VI-scum. That said, the game picks up on D2. CKD felt really frantic on 334. Is he always like this? I've seen him on-site a lot and he joined in '07 so this type of reaction really feels off when I read through it.

please someone else see this!!!!!!!!!!!

It looks like something Shotty would post.

I voted Magnetic for a reaction at first, unvoted because I was unsure whether to read him as caught mafia or dumb town and didn't vote again because I didn't want to risk shortening the day as much as it ended up.

What? I looked back and you unvoted Magnetic when he had 2 votes on him. Your vote and Andrew's RVS vote. How do 2 votes warrant a reason to think you will help prolong the day by unvoting

Ok, I haven't gotten to the N2 kill in the game yet but from where I'm at, SC is siding and defending bgg like a boss. In the first post, SC flipped cop. I'm assuming this would mean bgg is possibly confirmed since there's a very likely possibility SC got an innocent on him. SC's 423/430 only re-confirms this in my eyes.

Vollkan, in your 460, you had given no points to Andrew94 as of posting. What about his play did you find that didn't warrant points? I remember you specifically asking him to post reads or replace out. He posted a few lines on the game and people in the game but did not list anyone as scum or town in doing so. After you asked him to try again, his next post was his attempt to disprove he was not active lurking. He fos'd bgg in the post but did not do anything else beyond that. Why did you not push on this or follow through with it?

well i don't mean to bandwagon but i think sub is making sense bgg is getting into useless arguements (tho i don't really think i have any say in this, since everyone also thinks i'm useless and dumb) and i wanna see how he wud react if he face some heat

This is just mirroring what Subgenius just said.(Useless arguements and heat were actually part of what subgenius said) This looks like a very opportunistic bandwagon attempt in an attempt to buddy up to subgenius while at the same time have a place to park her vote.(Yura votes in the post after this post) There was nothing added to the discussion nor does Yura take a solid stance on who she thinks is scum but rather just wants to see "how he wud react if he face some heat". Why is this slot still alive?

I'm surprised noone has asked SC why he is just sitting around and watching the day pass by. Subg, ckd popping in right after his name is mentioned should not entail a "strong fos". There is no evidence he was lurking and by at least posting right after his name is mentioned, he is making a promise to attempt to scumhunt and/or participate later on. There is nothing to suggest he was pressured because his name was mentioned. I've done the same type of thing before on a player but it's null tell at best.

I don't really have any other big sus for mafia but I do think he can be mafia and just planning when the night comes or he actually IS a sk planning his own kills. I just think he's more sk/vig because for some reason I just don't see him working with others...

Again, Yura isn't trying to find the mafia. Newbscum slip? I think so. On another note, vig makes no sense. Anyways, again, why is this slot still alive?

or a townsperson(vig).

Why'd you mention this in 504?

EDIT, he then votes 3 people very quickly...1st vote I get...the two after looks bad.

The two after he mentions here are truant and then Yura. Truant has been someone Max has been display suspicion of whilst Yura is one of CKD's top(tied with bgg) scum leads which tells me one of two things: CKD doesn't like the reaosns Max has presented for voting Yura or CKD needs a suspect so he quotes this one line from Max, misconstrues it to his liking, and uses it as a scum-tell. An important thing to note is that CKD is voting for Regfan and Max, both of who have looked into his case in the past. If anyone has played with him before, meta would be appreciated because I feel it may be helpful to have around for CKD reads.

the bgg vote wasnt much of a strong scum sus like which i kinda have on ckd

it was more of to see how he would react and base on it.... and for now my sus are not that big yet for i have no big evidence yet...:/

ITT: Yura outs herself by saying she suspects ckd more but voted bgg but then counteracting it and offering a possible neutral stance on ckd by stating she has no big evidence.

Just finished briefly reading Andrews scum games, his playstyle in them is almost identical to that of this game. For anyone else interested in reading them, they are:
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=15974&start=0
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15612
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=15786&start=0

Vote: Andrew94

Is this vote based purely on meta or was there more reason for it? I ISO'd before this post but only found questions aimed at Andrew, not real stances on him being scum and reasoning.

[Maxous]

A bit off topic:

An epilogue

Heh, I just finished a game called Amnesia: The Dark Descent, in which the main character got coaxed by a mysterious man into committing mass murders. The main character then regretted the evil monster he had become and sought redemption and release through death.
I found that coincidence amusing.

____________________
____________________

This likely means that CMAR is indeed town, and Subs attack at those voting him means he's probably town as well. The manner in which it was pointed out as well leads me to believe that CKDs spot is town leaving:

-Maxous
-Volkan

Of those I'm most certain of Maxous being mafia.

Regfan,you're going to have to go through this for me.
I don't know how you came to those conclusions.

I agree. Max is next in line in my book.

And why is that?

or a townsperson(vig).

Why'd you mention this in 504?

I was stating what Yura wrote.
She said I think Bgg is mafia or a SK or town.

Anyway now that Yura is now confirmed to of been mafia I will bring this up.

Unforunately? the biggest town read. Anyway, Day 1 he thinks Yura is town, quite strongly.

First post of Day 2:

He votes Yura instantly with a reason that was never really explained that well.

She was the SK because Tclawren kinda suspected her (although he had an increaing suspicion of Bgg that Truant never mentioned.)

A far cry from being the strongest town read. Probably a change of strategy during the night period. He was told to bus etc.
Yura's flip makes me more confident about the Truant/CMAR/Hinduragi slot.

My town reads from strongest to weakest are:
Regfan
Bgg
Vollkan.

If there is a third mafia my guess would be either Subgenius or Scott/CKD due to process of elimination mostly.
Interestingly CKD also changed his stance from Yura being a bad lynch on Day 1 to a good one on Day 2. As well as hestitant to lynch CMAR.
Hmm I will look more into it if I'm around later.

[subgenius]

I agree. Max is next in line in my book.

And why is that?

Very similar to what Regfan posted: Bgg is nearly confirmed, and SB is looking town based on his uncovering of Haylen's slip. As others have mentioned, it seems unlikely that both claimed PR's are faking, so Hindu is probably town. I'm still not sure about Regfan, Vollkan, or Max, but of those three players, Max's interaction with the Haylen wagon is quite conspicuous in that he seemed more interested in deflecting suspicion from her than learning more about the set-up rules that could prove her claim false. My only reservation is that it almost seems too obvious.

[havingfitz]

Back from v/LA. Flip coming shortly.