Open 302: JUNGLE REPUB nope game over! Party time!

[HezLucky]

4036

confirm

[HezLucky]

I hate you all for making me come back to a topic with 52 posts in it already.

Vote: Wicked

- DIE SCUM DIE

[HezLucky]

Vote Empking

It doesn't seem like he will be a help to the towns much... and since he already has people piling votes on him, he could of done something scummy so far.

This is easily the dumbest thing I've read so far. I will

Unvote, Vote: DeityKabuto

and seriously what is with the activity in this game? Spam walls encourage lurking. It's damn near impossible to keep up.

[HezLucky]

Okay guys, I hate spam walls to death and will be weary of joining games in the future with these players. Nevertheless, here's what I picked up upon a thorough reread of the earlier parts of the game: [[Disclaimer: I have only read the first three pages thoroughly, the rest has been largely skimmed at best. Thanks for the spam wall guys]]

- Something about MAGNA OF ILLUSION's post #8 makes me really uncomfortable. I'm not sure what.
- I am familiar with Empking's style. I will not oppose pressure on Empking in future games because this
is far more activity than I am used to seeing out of him. So good work, everyone. (Although I am in the
"Empking is not a good day one policy lynch" meta, though I will happily subscribe to the "Empking is a
good day one policy pressure" meta)
- Twistedspoon's early posts are HEAVILY WIFOM. I'm not sure what my stance on WIFOM as a scum tell is,
but I certainly won't lynch based just on that.
- Neil wants to essentially policy lynch Empking. [[NB: point below. I have the sneaking feeling Neil would be happy with a Day 1 Empking lynch regardless of role, though]]

Those were some of my thoughts as I was reading the game. Then I came across:

- Post #66/#67 - Magna's post explaining why Neil is putting pressure on Empking, which is exactly what
I thought of BEFORE I read this post and makes complete sense, is something that doesn't make sense to
Empking? WTF? His response is highly abnormal. He's arguing it as if he disagrees. 2b is NOT an absurd
misrepresentation, as Empking calls it, but a highly relevant point. If I've learned one
thing about Empking on this site it is that I tend to agree with him, so his response is setting off
a huge alarm in my head.

Unvote, Vote: Empking

That's five.

[HezLucky]

Hez: When did I ever say that neil was calling me scum for my playstyle? Its irrelevant and an absurd misrepresentation of the point.

What? When did I ever say this? Your question is an absurd misrepresentation of the point.

Hez: Why are you saying that you're annoyed about the spam but look favourable on neil and MOI doing what they did to cause the spam? (I'm a simple creature. Whenever I'm suspicious of someone who refuses to scumhunt or answer my questions I post like that. Its a habit IO try to avoid.)

I hate hate hate hate hate the spam but I can't lynch off spam. If you lynch everyone who urks you that is a quick way to lose the game. The only thing I can do is meta them out of future games I play.
On the other hand, your sixth ISO made me highly uncomfortable, as explained above, and the seventh basically sealed the deal. You were pressured and I did not at all like your response.

[HezLucky]

Hez: Still sure that its spam walls that encourage lurking?

Yes. And you are largely responsible. With you, I'm largely of the opinion that you are active enough (even if you don't post much content in many of your games) that you can be read, and so am comfortable just waiting for a read to pop up. Today, on day one, I had my read on page three (as mentioned in my previous post) and so, your spamming is incredibly annoying as it monopolizes the discussion and is unlikely to change my thoughts (but it does prevent us from catching scum on future days so thank you for being anti-town)

[HezLucky]

did a reread (technically a first read of pages 3 to roughly ~7)

posts I was uncomfortable with -

#8 MagnaofIllusion - almost as if he's telling the Seer what to do so that he can adjust his scum strategy
appropriately.
#55 Neil - I like Neil's reasoning for his vote on Empking. I mentioned this already, but I'm happy to see an Empking
pressure wagon on Day One to get him to talk.
The Magna #66/Empking #67 exchange is the top reason I think Empking is scum. I mentioned this before.
#75 Twistedspoon - way to analyze dude.
After #77, he could be lazy due to the large postcount. Like me. So I won't hold this against him.
#82 Neil/ #83 Empking - Neil brings up a good point that Empking is OMGUSing heavily. I don't think scum would do this,
so -1 to Empking's count. (NB: you'll see why this really doesn't matter later on, heh)

- This Empking/Neil debate is largely noise. Empking, especially, is posting in a highly anti-town manner dominating
the discussion and preventing the town from getting any real information or input from the remaining players
(hell i'm only making this post because multiple people prodded me)

- at this point I am so frustrated at Empking I would be happy to policy lynch him regardless of alignment.
- can we vig him? his being alive is detrimental to the town.

#96 Magna / #97 Empking - Magna gets the better of Empking here. I don't like Empking's response (first paragraph)
in post #97. He's explaining himself in a way that I would if I were scum, by trying to use careful words and carefully
posting in a calm tone.

#99 DeityKabuto is STILL the stupidest thing I've read in this thread. "Other people are voting him. He probably did
something bad. I'm going to vote him too." What. the. fuck?

...zomg I'm on page 5 this game will never end.

#101 Neil - if Neil wasn't new I would be on his ass for giving Deity #99 a free pass like this.

#104 Empking - Empking, what do you think of the fact that constantly asking questions is incredibly annoying,
unlike to get you anywhere, and is one of those "if I say some things often enough people will begin to believe them"
tactics? Neil #105 is right. Leading questions galore. +1

#106 Empking - last part is either sarcastic wit, or Empking is completely clueless as to why he has that many votes
on him.

Neil #108 is absolutely right. Empking has constantly been asking leading questions and DENYING IT.

Neil #112 -- it is at this point where I am going to stop reading the Neil/Empking exchange. I am siding with Neil.
Empking deserves to be lynched, for a) poor poor poor responses to pressure (b) constantly asking leading questions
(c) dominating the discussion allowing others to lurk (d) not being of any use to the town in scumhunting. I mean,
all he does is attack the people who attack him. -_-

Good. Let's see who else I find scummy.

DeityKabuto #118 - okay this is retarded. Deity is my new #2. "You are trying too hard to defend yourself." Are you
SERIOUS? That's a reason for LYNCHING someone? More like, that's an excuse for sticking your vote on the wagon leader.

DeityKabuto #120 is funny too. Doesn't even want to bother to find a reason where Empking was defending himself, even
though it was the ENTIRE FUCKING THREAD. Seriously, why don't we have a vig? It's annoying.

Regfan #125 - votes Twisted on Twisted #32, which I didn't care for, but at least he has a reason.

Muffin #131 - I didn't like his vote on Twisted here. Muffin is in the same group that I am. "people who are lurking
because there is way too much fuckin activity in this game". I forgave Twisted for his half-assed post, but Muffin
never even considered the possibility they were in the same boat, instead preferring to try to get a wagon going with
the second vote.

Caboose #132 - I like Caboose. I agree with DK. Good post.

Drum #133 - raises a good point. God dammit. I really want to lynch Empking.

DK #139 seems genuine.

Wicked #141 - I don't like the fact that he's voting for Twistedspoon and calling Muffinman's vote of him opportunistic.
If I were in his shoes, I would have made the exact same post but voted MuffinMan for it. Points to MuffinMan. Possible
pairing of Wicked/MuffinMan here.

Neil #145 - I trust him on the Twisted meta. I don't see a problem with Twisted yet, but I will keep my eye on him.

Magna #146 / Wicked #147 - Given my slight suspicion of Sloth (not mentioned here) and stronger suspicion of MuffinMan,
if I were in Magna's shoes i would definitely have asked them something as well. Maybe Magna is not paying attention
to one of his buddies on purpose?

HOLY **** I'M ONLY ON PAGE SEVEN NOW? ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Empking #162 / Magna #163 - Magna is making Empking look worse by outdebating him. I believe them both to be scum now
but in different groups. Playing to your meta IS punished if you are scum.

Magna #169 - the second point. "Why is it his THIRD stop through a random game?" Give me a fucking break. That's not
evidence. These last few pages have made you look awful.

Come to think of it I don't think all of Magna/Neil/Empking can be scum after that first page exchange. I am going to
place Neil squarely in the town category now.

Muffin #184 - "MOI is winning the battle against Empking because he's a better debater" aka. "my scum buddy MOI is
doing a great job, but I don't want to seem too opportunistic so I will put some suspicion on him to make it seem like
I'm not giddy and considering all sides of the argument.

Magna #226 is right abuot Empking. As I've shown below, they are in opposite scum groups.

Twsited #253/#255 - scratch that. Empking's last buddy is Twisted. He claims MoI is town due to meta (his meta sucks)
... almost like a reverse-chainsaw. "I don't like Empking's case, but I don't want to chainsaw MoI" aka. Empking is
my buddy but I need to find someone eles to vote for.

Wicked #271 - no this is a meta.

I'm happy with my Empking vote. Aside from one thing, he's on the bad side of my scumdar. He's also largely anti-town
in his posting, which makes him a good policy lynch here regardless of alignment. (In other words, I believe he's scum - but you should vote for him regardless of what you believe)


Suspect List:
#1 - Empking (74/100) - this is an example where someone actually needs to be policy lynched, because their domination
of the discussion will prevent us from obtaining reads on ANYONE for the rest of the game. If I were vig, I would shoot
him no questions asked. Unfortunately, this is an open game. Oh wellz. [[focus on the scum -- poor responses, anti-town behaviour, lack of scumhunting or interest in finding scum, leading questions, arguing by repetition, etc. -- look, he's scum, but even if you don't think tihs, lynch him now.]]
#2 - DeityKabuto (74/100) - see above as to why I would like to lynch Empking today. Esp given I am afraid that DK
might be the biggest noob ever.
#3 - Magna (59/100)
#4 - Muffin (57/100) - upgraded a bit because of Wicked #141
#5 - TwistedSpoon (54/100)
---------------- scum cutoff
#6 - Wicked (52/100) - although he has made some good points.
#7 - all others - 50/100 --- aka. neutral read
#8 - Neil - 46/100
#9 - Caboose - 45/100

Scumlist: Empking, DK, Magna, Muffin, probably Twisted. (Empking/Magna in different scumgroups)
I have so many links though that I am not sure anymore who is in what scum group. Oh well, these are your scum guys
lynch away.

DK is just as likely to be scum. I choose to lynch Empking though. Will be better for town in the long run.
(and no this does not contradict Hez post #198, because I do think Empking is scum)

[HezLucky]

I don't think Empking is a werewolf because it would be really really dumb for the wolves to sacrifice "half their members" on Day One. (then again, maybe that's his only choice?)

It's one thing to believe he is scum. However, his claim will be sorted out over the rest of the game (ie. Seer dies, we lynch a mafia making it worth it for the seer to counterclaim, etc. etc.). As much as I would like to lynch him (and I really really do), I am not lynching a Seer claim on Day One. Onto my next highest target:

Unvote, Vote: DeityKabuto

[HezLucky]

Let's start with the numbers from my last post and look at what has happened since then:

Suspect List:
#1 - Empking (74/100)
#2 - DeityKabuto (74/100)
#3 - Magna (59/100)
#4 - Muffin (57/100)
#5 - TwistedSpoon (54/100)
---------------- scum cutoff
#6 - Wicked (52/100)
#7 - all others - 50/100 --- aka. neutral read
#8 - Neil - 46/100
#9 - Caboose - 45/100

- Neil is unvoting me for unvoting Empking, yet he is doing the same thing. Inconsistent and erases any town read I had on him.
This is the exact same reason I found Muffin #131 scummy. Inconsistency reeks of scum. +5
- rereading my reasons to catch me up, DK #118 still strikes me really poorly -- can you be any less obvious in making it seem like you are
inventing reasons to vote for people? "You are trying too hard to defend yourself" is terrible.
- I am noting Neil's metadefense (#145) of Twisted here for later. Not giving anyone any points for this, but when someone flips it will be
worth revisiting.
- The Magna/Empking exchange #160-#170 is really the reason I think Magna is scum as well. He goes from "I'm an excellent debater and I can
outdebate my way out of a paperbag" to "People now seem to know I'm an excellent debater so I'm going to aggressively push crap against Empking
just because I can". See my previous post for the specifics.
- Muffin #184. He still reeks of scum.
- Twisted #253/#255 still looks really bad.
- I haven't bothered to actually reread those first 12 pages (huge waste of time without a flip), just my summary post on them, so now that I'm no longer looking at the game from a
"omg I hate Empking as a person for posting so much he needs to be lynched lynched lynched" perspective we will see what changes.

Okay, let's start with the new posts:
- CJDrum #274 makes it seem to me like he isn't bothering to READ the game. it's possible he hasn't foudn enough time for it, thanks to Empking's
spam. It's also possible he's scum adn has no motivation to scumhunt. This will be cleared up in future days, I hope. {no points}
- I don't know why, but Sloth #275 reeks of a scummy vibe. He supports a lynch on Empking or Twisted (aka. two people with HEAVY wagons on them)
aka. I have no other suspects I'll just go with what's popular. He then says DK is noobscum. I feel like I've seen this scumtactic before, where
you make it look like you are scumhunting by picking two players who are popular, and then taking one who is popular and discounting the argument
because they aren't in your scumgroup. This is not scumhunting. It's faux-scumhunting.
- Muffin #279 is essentially buddying MoI by asking him for excessive explanation.
- Caboose thinks DK is "obviously not scum". Explain, Caboose. With the warning that as of this post you are the only person in the game I have a
town read on.
- Caboose #286 - this guy is GOOD. He finds a Muffin wagon good? Oh man. This guy is so town that anyone voting for him is getting +50. Clearly
looking at the game from the same perspective as myself.
- Magna #289 - Oh look, he doesn't like Caboose #286.
- get a good feeling from DK #296. I can almost see his thought process here. "Another person is voting me, but this is someone that has lurked.
Screw you for lurkingi n this game and trying to get me lynched. F***** FREELOADER". Transparency is good. He's a huge VI though. Like wow.
- Wicked #307 - MoI may have him fooled but he does not have me fooled.
- Magna #309 - where he is STILL focusing on "Empking could not have searched three games". Look, a town would be like "this point is moot I have
ten other points agaisnt you that are all highly relevant" whereas a scum would be looking for some new points, even if he has to invent them, to
make it seem like Empking is overwhelming scum (as opposed to highly likely scum). Greedy scum. (Still note: Empking is scum. I don't care for
Empking's alignment in determining MoI's)
- Muffin #317 - the reason he is probably not thinking Empking is scum is because the evil people have likely agreed that it would be pretty silly
for everyone on Empking to be scum and so they would like to split their accusations. I don't believe Muffin actually believes Empking isn't scum
based on that post. In other words, a townie wouldn't have written that, as it seems highly insincere.
- Magna #319 - Magna is scumhunting. I will give him that. Based on the setup of this game, it's irrelevant. But the point on Wicked is definitely
noted. ... but he finds Caboose suspicious. Ugh Ugh Ugh.
- CJDrum's posts are useless to me now, but are goign to be interesting once we get some flips. I am going to refrain from trying to read him
until that time.
- Sloth #350 - dude, are you EVER goign to analyze ANYTHING?
- Wicked #351 - the distancing point is WIFOM dude.
- Wicked #356 is a huge point against MoI. You don't lynch Empking tomorrow. Seems like MoI is tryign to setup the lynch. Wicked has also largely
beent alking some sense ont his page, so he goes down.
- Muffin #360 - the "Slip?" just reeks of scum. Commit to your votes scum.

MY RESPONSES TO POSTS:
(NOTE: ALL OF THESE RESPONSES ARE <<AS I READ THE POST>>. If it contradicts something I've written in the "new posts" section, it's because it
was probably written BEFORE the corresponding thing in the new posts section.)
- Muffin #279: It's the opposite. I think DK is scum, but I'm afraid that if I'm wrong he might just be a huge VI. I don't know how policy lynch
is defined. I believe Empking is scum as well, but he was so anti-town in the first twelve pages that I could've cared less about his alignment.
Really? You want me to elaborate on Empking. Have you been reading the thread? Magna's done a good job re: the case on Empking. I don't have
too much to add, really.
- Deity #281: VI VI VI VI VI VI VI. But everyone knows that. "Thinking lots of people are scummy is scummy" <<< that's his argument.
- Magna #289: Seer strategy? Beats me. I'm not you. But scum talk at night and can set up someone to make a Seer claim that is WIFOMlicious.
You not being Hez is a solidly reliable scumtell. You've been caught redhanded.
Your discrediting of my argument "he's just looking for things that could be scumtells" is noted. You don't need to be an excellent
debater to find scum. I don't believe you to be town though. You kill people at night. (Or maybe you are evil sheep) How's that?
My evidence makes a lot of sense. YOU were looking for something you could pass off as a scumtell ("he is lying about his choosing
of games") and you are trying to pin what YOU are doing on me.
- You guys are silly. You UNVOTE EMPKING because he has claimed the ONLY POWER ROLE IN THE GAME. You don't KEEP YOUR VOTE ON HIM. The consequences
of being wrong, on <<DAY ONE>> !!!!!!, are great. You severely hurt the town. Keep him alive on Day One for sure. This will all sort itself out
later.

FOS: All those on Empking's wagon after the Seer claim

. This is an open game, folks. You don't lynch the only claimed power role on
Day One. (FYI, I still believe Empking is scum, but this is BASIC MAFIA THEORY PEOPLE)
- Neil #339: I fully intend to jump on Magna, given the information between my last post and now. Sloth hasn't asid enough for me to be confident
in his read. You had a town read. Read my last post. It also explains Deity. You aren't reading. Read.
- Deity #384: Never believe any claims ever? You have to be the VI. Scum can't possibly be this stupid. Actually, I don't know your meta. Could
be an act. [shrug]

Suspect List:
#1 - Empking (75/100) - you don't LYNCH THE SEER ON DAY ONE. Idiots. I don't care if Empking is scum, he's not today's play.
#2 - DeityKabuto (72/100)
#3 - Magna (66/100)
#4 - Muffin (58/100)
#5 - Sloth (56/100)
#6 - TwistedSpoon (54/100)
-------- scum line because I can't decide between Sloth and Twisted.
#7 - Neil - 51/100
#7 - Drum - 51/100
#9 - Wicked (50/100) - not neutral, but rather he's had some town and scum reads that have balanced out perfectly.
#10 - all others - 50/100 --- aka. neutral read
#11 - Caboose - 40/100 - he is so town it hurts.


The key things to point out:
- Caboose #286 - likes Muffin/Twisted wagons. Doesn't like DK/Empking wagon. I just feel like he's providing the town with the proper guidance we
need. Empking/DK are highly scummy to me, but both could be noise. Is Caboose looking past that noise? I would rather lynch Muffin over Twisted,
but both are scummy and I have a good good feeling about this. <<<<was about to vote Twisted>>>
- but seriously. Empking is probably scum. But you DON'T LYNCH A CLAIMED SEER ON DAY ONE WHEN THAT IS THE ONLY POWER ROLE YOU HAVE IN THE ENTIRE
GAME! DK reeks of scum, but could be the VI. Magna, on the other hand has absolutely no drawbacks to lynching today. He's where my vote will be
right now.

Unvote, Vote: MagnaofIllusion

Will post more on Magna later. As these thoughts are so jumbled I don't expect anyone to vote based on my posts yet.

[HezLucky]

Right we got some opportunistic scum on my wagon surely. Let's go from my last post and take it from there:

Last time on: JUNGLE REPUBLIC.

People wanted to lynch Empking, the fucking Seer. Idiots. I'm going to find someone who pushed that lynch hard and vote for
them.

Neil #396 - you're right. I love to OMGUS. But given where you are on my suspect list (as of last post) that has nothing to
do with you.

Magna #403 - Empking was tops on my scumlist yesterday too. Clearly you had many points against Empking. But you are
strawmanning here. Your focus on #309 was a frivolous attack. Your defense is even worse. Your method of discrediting my
arguments is I'm sure strongly effective, regardless of alignment. It's very easy to call someone's case on you "Rather
marginal" and just brush it off. It's not marginal. INVENTING SCUMTELLS IS NOT MARGINAL. Grandstanding? I was rigtht.
Actually, I wasn't. I thought Empking was scum. But I was right to unvote him.

LynchMePlz #410 - I can't believe you replaced Caboose, who was my strongest towntell by far. You are getting huge scumpoints
for this post. Not because you voted for me, but because MoI and Muffin are two of your top three townreads. Your case on
me is not only opportunistic, but you are inventing a scumlist to make it look like you are scumhunting. No one in their
right mind would find both MoI and muffin as town.

(sadly evenw ith this post the LMP/Caboose spot is still easily the most town in this game - but you look much worse for it)

And to respond to your question, the vote for Wicked was a RVS vote. He had posted recently, so I picked him.

Your case on deflecting re: myself not mentioning the MOI/neil/Empking? that's becaues I hate spamwalls. I hadn't read enough
of it to form an opinion. But my opinion is there in later posts.

The "things you like" (5 of them) is a smear campaign. #1 doesn't make me scum. #2 is great, because Empking does nothing but
unvote and vote in games I've seen him play, with no sort of explanation whatsoever. I almost PREFER Empking playing this way,
if only he could reduce his post frequency greatly. #3 Smear MoI? no way. My smear in MoI comes much later. #4 that's how I
interpreted it. :shrug: and #5 MoI and Empking can both be scum. There are two scum groups. Your case sucks, dude. Go out,
get some fresh air, and come back later when you learn how to play.

But whatever. The person you replaced in on looked so good to me, that I'll wait for more from you.

Deity #413 - you are so inconsistent it's not funny.

Muffin #421 - yes. I would like to hear this too. Because you are the current #3 on my scumlist and I'm going to make sure
either you or Magna gets lynched today. (DK? Man the guy is a VI. I admit I don't know how to read him)

Suspect List:
#1 - DeityKabuto (72/100) - huge VI.
#2 - Magna (69/100) - not a VI. Thus, way more comfortable with my vote.
#3 - Muffin (58/100) - still superscummy. Oh look, he's going to attack me. Note that I found him scummy long before his
"Wicked/Hez are scum" bit that he's trying to pull.
#4 - Sloth (56/100) - lurky mclurk
#5 - Neil - 51/100
#5 - Drum - 51/100 - trouble getting a read
#7 - Wicked (50/100) - apparently people think we're scum together. LOL. Sometimes a neutral read IS a neutral read. Sometimes
a lack of comments are a lack of comments. People seem to be basing any case on me on whether or not
I comment on someone. If I had a meta, I wouldn't be in this situation -_-
#8 - all others - 50/100 - whoever that is has been very quiet
#9 - LMP (formerly Caboose) - 45/100 - LMP is 55 caboose is 40 we add in mafia.

Vote: MagnaofIllusion

Lynch the scum.

[HezLucky]

Post coming within 24 hours. Have got a plane to catch today.

[HezLucky]

I be back home finally. Long few days. Let's get to where I left off last post:

Suspect List:
#1 - DeityKabuto (72/100) - huge VI.
#2 - Magna (69/100) - not a VI. Thus, way more comfortable with my vote.
#3 - Muffin (58/100) - still superscummy. Oh look, he's going to attack me. Note that I found him scummy long before his
"Wicked/Hez are scum" bit that he's trying to pull.
#4 - Sloth (56/100) - lurky mclurk
#5 - Neil - 51/100
#5 - Drum - 51/100 - trouble getting a read
#7 - Wicked (50/100) - apparently people think we're scum together. LOL. Sometimes a neutral read IS a neutral read. Sometimes
a lack of comments are a lack of comments. People seem to be basing any case on me on whether or not
I comment on someone. If I had a meta, I wouldn't be in this situation -_-
#8 - all others - 50/100 - whoever that is has been very quiet
#9 - LMP (formerly Caboose) - 45/100 - LMP is 55 caboose is 40 we add in mafia

That was LAST post. Let's see how it changes with everything new.

- Does anybody else notice how DeityKabuto's opinion of me is DIRECTLY 100% CORRELATED to whether or not I've had a positive
or negative tone towards him in my walls? Take from that what you may, he was my highest point total before but he's very
VI so I'm still super-hesitant.

- cjdrum #430 - I think you got the mafia and werewolves mixed up. Blind sheep are 3 in number (and, of course, Magna and
Muffin are among those three) while the super powerful werewolves number only 2.

- LynchMePls #431 - hey dude. nice comeback. way to not respond to a single one of my posts, but rather just blatantly
strawman me and dismiss my arguments. I made actual POINTS, you know. How about you, like, look at them? Or is it because
your scum that doesn't want to bring attention to the fact that you are, you know, WRONG?

- have been asked for my townread of Caboose. Seeing as Caboose was 40 and his replacement LMP is already up to 58 as of
this line, I feel it is definitely worthwhile to ISO and rehash my points:

Why Caboose is/was town
- ISO 3 - calling Magna out on his garbage. Proving he actually read and understood the Empking argument, rather than
haphazardly throwing a vote on him. (that was worth -5)
- Choice of targets, esp in post 6. Muffin/twistedspoon were excellent targets at the time, despite neither really having
a significant amount of pressure then. Further, he didn't like the Empking wagon and unvoted DK. I like the DK unvote because
of my own personal hesitation that DK might be town VI, rather than obvscum. DK and Empking are both very easy lynches, and
he just didn't go for either of them. (that's the other -5)

so upon reread, I am still very happy with my 40/100 on Caboose. LMP on the toher hand in two posts has managed to get that
slot back up to almost neutral. Amazing. (48/100 as of this line)

-

e.g. His case on neil at the moment revolves around him thinking that HezLucky is scum and neil is his partner... But he wouldn't be happy with a HezLucky lynch, just a neil lynch, and he's made no real mention of why he thinks HezLucky is scummy, he's just said he thinks it.

This Muffin post on Wicked is complete crap. It's one thing that he decides to go around inventing reasons on me. At least those reasons make sense. But he is spouting so much
nonsense against Wicked that it's irritating.

- Wicked #436 - I would thinkt he part where he writes "FOS: cjdrum" merits a vote, given that "his reaction is inconsistent with previous play" is usually a pretty solid scumtell.

- however, I like Wicked #437 - those Town/Scum reads (I don't agree with every single one, but...) seem very realistic - for example, unlike me, he didn't have Caboose as town so LMP - scum makes
complete sense. He has DK as town, cjdrum as scum (from the last FOS I could see this), I disagree with Magna as town and neil as scum but the other two (Sloth/MuffinMan) suspicions seem very legitimate as well.

- DK #439 - but this is how you read VI's. You don't listen to their reasons. You don't listen to the scummy crap that comes out of their mouth regardless of alignment. Instead, you look at their votes.
You'd rather lynch Neil instead of MuffinMan? I strongly disagree. Neil, as of this line, is town.

- Neil #440 - tho I am very tempted to give him points for this post (hell he's doing the same crap LMP is against me), I feel that would be due to emotional bias. So I cannot!

- Muffin #441 - oh hay. A post I need to respond to. Let's read it. Let's summarize Muffin's case against me.

First major post is ISO#3, which is virtually fluff. MoI makes him uncomfortable for unknown reasons, TS uses WIFOM but this doesn't mean anything whatsoever apparently, Empking's thoughts are different to HezLucky's so Empking is suspicious... This would be his third vote of the game (Empking).

Hey look. This is MUFFINMAN, the guy who said he META'D ME. He is voting me partially because "Empking's thoughts are different from Hez's thus Empking is suspicious" aka. the "thinks like Hez" theory that I have CONSISTENTLY BEEN USING IN ALL MY GAMES THAT HE HAS CLAIMED TO META ME IN.

Yet he is voting me for this. Without even reading the rest of the post, I am comfortable to

Unvote, Vote: MuffinMan

But this ain't strawman. I've been suspicious of him all day. Let's continue.

Prior to this, he vote Wicked as a RVS vote ("DIE SCUM DIE") and then voted DK for saying something dumb. He rides the Empking wagon all the way up until Empking's claim and then unvotes and votes DK instead, followed by MoI (2 votes that were essentially useless because he did nothing with them and neither of those players really had any support for a lynch, so these two votes were complete fluff votes).

This is information followed by "oh look he did a fluff vote". That's not analysis dude. Sorry. In many games that you CLAIM TO HAVE META'D, I have stuck my vote on someone who has been previously voteless in order to draw attention to them. THIS IS NUMBER TWO. THE SECOND TIME MUFFIN IS VOTING ME FOR SOMETHING CONSISTENT WITH MY META, WHICH HE CLAIMS TO HAVE A HANDLE ON.

- at this point I am so frustrated at Empking I would be happy to policy lynch him regardless of alignment.
- can we vig him? his being alive is detrimental to the town.

Making a note of the above quote because his later posts suggest he thinks people pushing for an Empking lynch are scummy... Also this quote:

Dude. This is not a case. You know why? Anyone who had to read ten billion pages of Empking's crap all at once (as I unfortunately had to do) would be extremely frustrated with Empking PERIOD. Seriously, I would've vig'd him so fast if I had those powers.

Unfortunately, Empking claimed Seer. Those voting for Empking while EMPKING CLAIMED SEER are SUPER DUPER SUPER SCUMMY. This is obvious and not inconsistent in any way.

Rest of Muffin's post:

You aren't reading my crap. You are (frig I don't know the word for this) oversimplifying my arguments, trying to justify your case using nothing but terminology (oh look I'll throw out teh term "white knight" just becaues Hez happened TO BE RIGHT! Nevermind that Hez clearly thought Empking
was scummy as hell even AFTER the claim). Oh look, you are using WIFOM. How'st hat for terminology to justify scumminess?

Oh cool, you get to comment on my ISO. This is going to be boring as hell for me seeing as I just reread it.

- don't forget Neil. He was voting for me yesterday.
- "Aha I told you so"? How about "aha, this is common sense. I must have common sense. Yes I win at life?"
- "thinks like Hez" re: Muffin and MoI, who are my top two targets right now. Though I'm sure you knew that my meta actually disproves your argument and not the other way around -_-. You desperately want to be right. But you aren't. I'm not in the other scumgroup, buddy. I'm straight up town.
- why don't you comment on my lack of analysis of regfan while you are at it? We MUST be linked.

Not even gonna read your crap against Wicked. I'm voting for you and got more than enough ammo.


But I will do the meta post. That was SO MUCH FUN.

I just checked Hez's meta. There aren't many games, but his playstyle is different in the games he's flipped town. There's none of the complaining that he's doing in this game, and when I was reading through his posts in games he was town I didn't get the same feeling that his posts were forced and insincere like I'm getting in this game. His votes in other games actually make sense, and he pushes his stances rather than just putting votes out and coasting along like in this game. Also, just a side note, he hasn't done a RVS vote like in this game in any of the games he's town, so this just reinforces my opinion that there was some meaning behind it, although it could just be pure coincidence.

- Complaining is scum? There is none of the "Empking is in this game posting 500 times a day" in any of my other games is there?
- Feeling is a funny thing. As you say, you can use it to justify anything. My votes make sense? That's not because, um, you weren't in those games were you? Because now that you are in this game, my vote must not make sense since I find you and your buddy MoI scummy.
- coasting eh? Okay, I admit it. Relative to those two games you meta'd where my interest was at a high because I had just come back to the site, I have lost a significant amount of interest in mafia. However, I am playing it out the honourable way. (go check my other ongoing game and see how often I post there)
- "he hasn't done a RVS vote like this in any game where he's popped town" - sample size: 2. Why is this significant? Oh. It isn't. I can put a half-assed RVS vote anytime I want.

All in all. Your points are extremely weak. However, as mentioned above, if you actually considered my meta properly rather than trying to find facts to fit your accusations, you'd notice my meta actually DISPROVES like half your points.

Okay next post to read is Magna #444. I'm tired. I'll take it from there. But I know people are looking forward to this post so bam here it is.


Suspect List:
#1 - DeityKabuto (74/100)
#2 - Magna (69/100)
#3 - Muffin (60/100)
#4 - Sloth (56/100)
#5 - Drum - 52/100
#6 - Neil - 51/100
#7 - all others - 50/100
#8 - Wicked 49/100
#9 - LMP (formerly Caboose) - 48/100


Magna and Muffin are both superscum. But Muffin is the far easier target today (he's actively posting crap as opposed to sly-ly ignoring me), as I plan on completely ripping his ass apart. Let's goooooooo.

[HezLucky]

the "thinks like Hez" theory that I have CONSISTENTLY BEEN USING IN ALL MY GAMES THAT HE HAS CLAIMED TO META ME IN.

That's not what you've done in any of your other games. I can point to clear examples of you saying you disagree with someone's reads but think they're town (e.g. your read on Exe in 1151), and I can point to clear examples where you think someone's scum without even taking into account their reads.

It's also just terrible logic, full stop.

Once again, you are using faulty logic and do not understand the power of the "Thinks Like Hez" theory. The theory (which has been very effective, mind you, in the games I have tested it on) states that those with similar scumreads to myself are viewing the game from the same perspective as myself, and are therefore more likely to be town, and vice versa. It does NOT state that I solely use people's reads to obtain my own. On the contrary, I only use "thinks like Hez" in extreme situations. You are trying to misapply the theory in order to discredit me. Noted scum.

In many games that you CLAIM TO HAVE META'D, I have stuck my vote on someone who has been previously voteless in order to draw attention to them.

The difference being you were pushing your votes in the other games. And since you clearly admit this later on, and attribute it to a "lack of interest", I don't even need to refute this.

Once again, you are --lying-- (using very poor logic on purpose -- this reasoning is circular). There is NO difference. You are accusing me for "fluff votes", which are more than consistent with my meta, and then when I refute it you admit that you were wrong and pour on this garbage. Given that my so-called "fluff votes" were a) on DK, who has received plenty of suspicion throughout the game [[oh look, my so called fluff vote called attention to someone]] and (b) MoI, who I CONTINUED TO PUSH AT THE START OF TODAY, your argument holds very little water.

Dude. This is not a case. You know why? Anyone who had to read ten billion pages of Empking's crap all at once (as I unfortunately had to do) would be extremely frustrated with Empking PERIOD. Seriously, I would've vig'd him so fast if I had those powers.

It was never meant to be a case, it was a note because you'd be happy to see him die, regardless of his flip.

then why did you post it? (there's fluff for you)

Those voting for Empking while EMPKING CLAIMED SEER are SUPER DUPER SUPER SCUMMY.

Yeah, no, apart from there being obvious reasons to keep your vote on Empking even after a seer claim, this was your post

- You guys are silly. You UNVOTE EMPKING because he has claimed the ONLY POWER ROLE IN THE GAME. You don't KEEP YOUR VOTE ON HIM. The consequences
of being wrong, on <<DAY ONE>> !!!!!!, are great. You severely hurt the town.

How anyone could possibly see this as sincere, I have no idea. You're scum trying to white knight. There's no other explanation for this.

We'll see if you feel this way at the end of the game. This is common sense. I am Hez trying to give common sense. (and this would be very consistent with my meta if I had a large enough "n" as well). I don't know if mafiascummers in 2011 are idiots, but back in 2005 we did NOT LYNCH THE COP AFTER A DAY ONE CLAIM. It's moronic. You're arguing with me over a completely crap point. You're obviously able to string several sentences together to make a coherent argument against me. Your inability to understand this is what makes you obvious scum. "There's no other explanation for this."

- why don't you comment on my lack of analysis of regfan while you are at it? We MUST be linked.

Links aren't as obvious, but noted you consciously have not been analysing regfan's play.

Lynch Muffin now. He has constantly tried to misinterpret every single thing I have said in an attempt to get me lynched. His arguments hold absolutely no water, and when I refute them and he even admits that certain parts of my refutation are completely correct, he spews even more crap in an attempt to cover up his mistakes.

[HezLucky]

Why do I have three votes? o_O

Unvote, Vote: Muffin

(had alraedy done this just repeating)

(FTR: I don't inherently oppose a Drum lynch but there are at least 3 people I would rather lynch first - Magna, Muffin and Sloth)

especially Sloth, who looks REALLY bad by replacing out. (I did that once - when I was scum)

[HezLucky]

I'm here. Want to lynch Magna or Muffin today. Don't really care which but it'll be hard to convince me otherwise. Going to do a reread though I'm not sure how useful that will be. Maybe I'll ISO.

[HezLucky]

Interesting that you would choose to post this when you specifically say it makes you look bad.

I, however, am more than happy to speculate on why LMP was dead. I certainly anticipate the cries of WIFOM … there is a solid grain of truth to that argument.

But in this set-up (known roles) there is one strong reason for the Werewolves to kill anyone after the Seer is dead – they are the greatest threat them. With that in mind I would guess that the bottom of LMP’s scum list is very likely to contain a Wolf.

That list was –

TOWN
MagnaofIllusion
Regfan
neil1113
DeityKabuto
zMuffinMan
Wickedestjr
cjdrum
HezLucky
Sloth
SCUM

Vote: MagnaofIllusion

who is a --WEREWOLF-- after this post.

Let me tell you why:

Magna is trying to speculate on why LMP is dead, which is fine. However, it's more than likely that he killed LMP himself, looked at his scum list
and thought "there aer some easy lynches I can push on the scum side", then tried to justify LMP's death by stating that LMP "knew something special"

This is not AT ALL how a town person thinks. I'm about to tell you how a town person (myself) thinks:

The reason LMP is dead is because he is no longer an easy lynch. I distinctly remember being asked WHY I HAD A TOWN READ ON CABOOSE and then I distinctly remember from yesterday him (MoI) asking me for an explanation of the Caboose town-read.

So what happened? After I explained it, he decided Caboose was no longer really lynchable, stopped attacking him altogether, and killed Caboose/LMP in an attempt to make his lynching of Sloth easier. He even tried to setup today's lynch with his

Regardless I’ll make you a deal – support the CJ wagon today and I’ll back you on Sloth tomorrow. Sound good?

towards LMP. Then killed him so he would not be committed to Sloth incase a better wagon came up.


I felt Sloth was scum yesterday, but havingfitz is a definite townread right now, and {Muffin - your scum-ass can meta this from Draft Mafia} I've been in situations before where teh replacement is far more town than the initial player, and it's usually because they ARE town.



As for people I don't comment on:

That's ... everyone ... besides the people I am largely suspiciouso f. It's because those people haven't received any scumpoints, and so I will not be justifying my null or barely town read on them.

I must be partners with them right? Yes. Town buddies. Though it won't help very much.



If nothing interesting happens before my next post it will likely be a full game summary of the MoI case. CJ's flip truly changes nothing for me. Sorry.

[HezLucky]

WARNING: QUOTEWALL

I made a song.
(to "O Clementine")

Lynch the werewolf.
Lynch the werewolf.
Lynch the werewolf, everyone.
Magna of Illusion is a werewolf
and I won't rest till he's done.


seriously, does anyone even realize how whenever magna writes ANYTHING at all to me his goal is to discredit my character rather than to actually answer my arguments? his typical response to me will be

something

MAGNA: This is not scummy.

something

MAGNA: Neither is this. You are a poor player. Take advice from me, Magna the Guardian.

something

MAGNA: I'm not coming after you today because it would be really bad if me and my buddy Muffin were both attacking you.

something

MAGNA: This is AtE/WIFOM/some other acronym.

something

MAGNA: This right here is a list -->
1. you're wrong
2. you're appealing to something.
3. i learned this word in my logic class so i'm going to use it.

something

MAGNA: uh huh. i'm not going to actually respond to this point but you don't really believe it do you?

something

MAGNA: Interesting that you would say this. Only a scum would say this.

something

MAGNA: hey excuse me while i go lynch someone who has looked townie today, so that i can pretend to be consistent.

something

MAGNA: This is definitely a scumtell. You cannot possibly not be scum right now.

something

MAGNA: Mis-rep. Also, this is bad. I won't elaborate. I don't need to because you know I am capable of using big words.

something

MAGNA: No, that's not what I was doing.

something

MAGNA: No, that's not what I was doing. Of course, thanks for bringing that to my attention because I need to learn to play scum better.

something

MAGNA: Also, I should probably mention that I never think I'm wrong in any way. I must have 100% mafia hunting capabilities. Oh wait, that's because I know who the mafia are. :raises hand:

something

MAGNA: I'm going to state something obvious like "inconsistency and flip-flopping ahoy" in order to make you look bad when none of these things are actually occuring. In fact, it's very [REDACTED] that I would even consider such a line, except to dirty your poor name. I definitely wouldn't be saying these things as town, that's for sure.

something

MAGNA: You assert that I was doing "something". Please explain.

something

MAGNA: Explain this too. I don't believe this is the case. Of course, making you explain stuff takes the onus off me and puts it on you. God I'm brilliant. :takes some vicodin:

something

MAGNA: You'll never know that I'm scum. I use big words and fake logic no matter my alignment. The only difference today is nothing I say actually makes any sense. Also, big words. Oh man I can just feel this game being won already. Why are we even playing?

something

MAGNA: I disagree. FAIL FAIL FAIL. (Man I am really good at responding to arguments in walls with things that are substantive)

something

MAGNA: I'm going to make some shit up to implicate you in some sort of partnership with :rolls dice: that guy. And if that doesn't work, I can always link you to someone else later. OH MAN I SO WANT TO LYNCH YOU I AM VERY EXCITED PLEASE PAY ME $5.50 NOW.

something

MAGNA: I'm going to ISO you now. If I do enough work maybe it will hide the fact that I am killing people at night.

YOUR ISO 63.7: Man this is scummy.
YOUR ISO 78.2: I'm going to nitpick your points system too. It's a very easy thing to do.
YOUR ISO 98.6 FAHRENHEIT: Man it's hot in here. Oh hey, let's connect you to the same person I connected you to earlier. :rolls dice: #%#%#$# I got a different result.

something

MAGNA: You are putting words in my mouth.

something

MAGNA: Even though this is perfect logic that makes complete sense, I am going to pretend to find a logical flaw in it and not explain why. This is because anyone who cannot respond to every argument has to be scum. Has to be. I would bet my life that you are mafia Hez, but not a werewolf, because I am a werewolf and I need to keep my street cred.

something

MAGNA: Pro-Tip: Go see a shrink. Yo let's iso some more so it makes it seem like I'm doing something.

ISO 5: HEZ VOTES FOR SOMEONE. SCUMMEH
ISO 6: Hez explains his vote.
ISO 7: I'm explaining what Hez is doing. Hell I'm not even giving any commentary at this point. I'm just explaining what he is doing. CAN'T YOU SEE THAT HE IS SCUM?

something

MAGNA:

something

MAGNA: DON'T MAKE ME ISO YOU.

something

MAGNA: Excuse me while I scumhunt for the other faction. :twirls hair:

something

MAGNA: I'M DISCREDITING YOU. YOU ARE BAD. I'M DISCREDITING YOU. EXCUSE ME? I AM ALMIGHTY. DIAF.

something

MAGNA: Hez is an idiot. Man, I'm good :strokes belly:

something

MAGNA: :burrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrp: :scratches himself: Also, I'm discrediting you. That was a misrep, it was an appeal to something I learned yesterday, I am scum I MEAN WAIT YOU ARE SCUM SORRY. I meant to say you are scum. Don't you dare misrep me. Seriously I need to pretend like I'm finding my own scumgroup while ignoring Muffin. HEY MUFFIN STOP EATING THE CAMERAMAN. Excuse me while I, Magna, unvote and vote for someone else. As I said, too suspicious to vote for you.




Can we lynch this werewolf now? I'm pretty sure he's been planning the last like... day and a half of lynches, in addition to the next three.

[HezLucky]

and for the record if you think I play to any sort of meta whatsoever I laugh in your face

[HezLucky]

Hez’s

565

is an exercise in Appealing to Repetition (if I keep saying MoI is Werewolf without backing it up logically maybe people will believe it), rhetoric, ironic double standards (whining about having his character discredited while making a large wall doing just that to someone else), and lazy song parody writing. Ok the last part isn’t a scum-tell but is true.

Hez doesn’t feel he can win a debate on the merits of the argument so he’s retreated to this territory.

You catch scum by taking them out of their comfort zone and seeing how they react. Magna is well within his comfort zone trying to argue against anyone as any alignment. People need a different approach. Notice how the best he can do against my post is IRONICALLY THE EXACT SAME THINGS I SAID HE WOULD DO. "Oh look, Hez is appealing to something, and doing all sorts of things that DOESN'T NECESSARILY MAKE HIM SCUM". I'm going to try to be even more scummy now so that my meta can be broken by this game. Oh wait, I don't have a meta.

Magna also does nothing but state the really obvious. That's all he ever does. However, what's scummy for one person can be a town play for another. Magna will simply state a whole list of things that makes Person X scummy but WILL REFRAIN FROM MAKING ANY SUCH LIST FOR PERSON Y. I repeat, Magna decides on his lynch targets for the next several days AHEAD OF TIME and then TWISTS THE EVIDENCE TO MAKE IT FIT HIS FACTS. Not the other way around. This is not scum hunting. This is going after lynches. All Magna wants is a lynch of someone that is not himself. Magna doesn't actually care who is scum. Look at his targets. They are terrible. It's entirely possible not a single person that Magna is attacking today is scum in any way, shape or form.

And notice how Magna never actually RESPONDED TO MY 565. He just threw some words at it with the hopes that it would go away, and made a RHETORICAL THREAT. (like me, except I'm doing it on purpose and it's very obvious that is so-- hence you can't call me out on it) Magna never made any comment about how each of his responses to me is an attempt to DISCREDIT me in order for the town to not take me seriously. Even thoguh I have HANDED THE TOWN WEREWOLF SCUM ON A PLATTER.

Seriously, this is what you guys are looking for, and I have spent the last two-three days SHOWING YOU WHO THE WEREWOLVES ARE. Magna and Muffin.

I will continue this unorthodox style of attack on Magna. Make him very uncomfortable. Then you can all judge for yourself.

[HezLucky]

I'm going to do some ISO'ing of DK and Sloth/HavingFitz later today because I consider them the most likely werewolves and considering we need to lynch a werewolf today I'll likely move my vote to one of them.

Are you scum? You are sheeping Magna's terrible terrible reads and you just defended him from my 565.

[HezLucky]

You STILL have not responded to a single thing I have said. All YOU are doing is firing off random words "quaint", "empty rhetoric", "mud-slinging" with the hopes that I will go away, but I am not. You are also trying to avoid RESPONDING TO ME by CHANGING THE TOPIC OF CONVERSATION. When you have two scum pegged as strongly as I do (Magna and Muffin), I am not going to muddy the waters by naming other suspects. I have no desire. Furthremore, unlike yourself, I have no intention of planning any future days lynches. You are completely beside the point. My next post will be you again.

[HezLucky]

EBWOP: too lazy to read most recent post, so this post is posted without the one right above it in mind.

durrr Hez just made a post to me. I have a brilliant idea. I am going to use my dictionary of random and arbitrary words to try and respond to his post. It's not like my words have any meaning whatsoever. I'm just "mudslinging" them around, as I am quite "quaint" and excellent at using "empty rhetoric". Also, I am specifically not going to respond to Hez's point in the previous post about my planning of lynches and how I like to twist evidence around to fit whatever it is I want to do for the day. No, not at all. I will probably get away with it too. Seeing as this town is full of {REDACTED -- use your imagination kids. Magna, use your dictionary} none of them will notice that I have not actually replied to Hez's points because Hez very rarely posts points anyway. They will think I did reply.

Hey, I feel like ISOing someone. :uses random number generator:

Oh man, this guy looks scummy.

ISO 1 - this person, whoever it is, decides to give advice to the "Seer" so that he can force the Seer to act in a predictable manner for the rest of the game, in case he or anyone in his scumgroup need to fakeclaim the only possible fakeclaim later.
ISO 4 - man this person sure is eager to start accusing people before the game even starts.
ISO 13 - this person directly contradicts himself when he states that "See I can throw pointless barbed statements out just like you. I try to refrain from doing it since it isn't Pro-Town behavior." even though this person has been doing nothing BUT that towards this Hez guy the entire game. Pointless, barbed statements in an attempt to discredit, as well as thinking that throwing random words out of his dictionary is actually RESPONDING TO AN ARGUMENT.

Hey MOI, this Iso

is on you

, and throwing random words from your dictionary is

not a response to an argument

Man, this is tiring. Let's iso this scum some more:

I encourage everyone to look at the following posts:

ISO 13 - the entire ISO is on Empking. Notice how his style of attacking Empking is exactly how he attacks everyone else this game. He tries to discredit Empking himself. For example:
"Nice attempt to deflect with Wiki-tells, BTW"
"This is just more smearing from you. Noted."
"All you are doing is suffering from Confirmation Bias"
"Very typical soft attack"

major scumtell number one

: ALL that Magna EVER DOES is use his big, fancy logic words. Now, I do not believe Magna is a poor player. Yet regardless of who is target is for the day, he is able to come up with a laundry list of why that person is scum. a LAUNDRY LIST. He has close to 50 reasons, usually, why that person has done scummy things. However, here's the kicker: If you are not Magna's lynch-du-jour (or a future lynch), he won't even acknowledge ANY scum tells that you are showing. Magna will simply IGNORE YOU, even though he could easily come up with 20-30 scumtells to justify your lynch no matter WHO YOU ARE. Magna is very very good at picking out arbitrary things and accusing you of them. However, he does not do this to everynoe.

Let me explain:
Let's say Person A (ie. myself, or Sloth) is Magna's target-du-jour, and Person B (iunno, a Muffin) is not. I believe town Magna would hunt for scumtells ridiculously, look for very arbitrary things, and would decide that Person A has 50 of these scumtells (yes, Magna can come up with 50, no problem), and that Person B has 20-30. I believe Scum-Magna would not want to attract any attention to Person B, as 30 is a LOT of scumtells, even though it is less than 50, and would just ignore them and attack Person A. That is what Magna has been doing this game. Unlike myself, he is very very good at finding very arbitrary things (every single post someone makes is scummy? hah) to discredit a person's position, and therefore it follows that he should be able to find these scumtells for EVERYONE. However, he is ignoring several people in this game. It is not becaues he has a neutral read on them, or has nothing to comment about -- as mentioned earlier, Magna could give 20 scumtells for every person's most recent post, but rather he does not want to draw suspicion towards them. Magna is smearing a select few people in this game so he can set up lynches for later.

major scumtell number two

: going to do this in a future post. it's stronger that way

You have no idea how badly I wish I was a vigilante right now. You would not survive the night.

(hell I don't even want to continue with the ISO -- too boring. Let's see if Magna actually responds to a SINGLE ONE OF MY POINTS without just reaching into his dictionary of words and pulling something out in hopes that I will go away. I will not, Magna, and I'm going to make this day BRUTAL for you.)

[HezLucky]

Man havingfitz is easily winning the argument with MoI (one is spouting bs, the other is not) but I'd like to know what the rest of the town thinks of this.

[HezLucky]

Why aren't Muffin and Magna lynched yet?

Why can't anyone agree on anything?

Why are half of the people in this game scum? You guys really suck. Someone bus Muffin/Magna already.

[HezLucky]

Regfan's aggressive pushing of havingfitz is noted. Havingfitz's townreads are very, very solid. Don't lose the game for everyone, regfan.

Unfortunately, I myself have no confidence in my reads outside of Magna and Muffin, who are both assuredly scum. I would like to lynch one of them today, and it will be hard to convince me to go somewhere else with my vote.

[HezLucky]

...actually now that I look at his list I think havingfitz has figured out the game.

the four remaining scum are DK, neil, Magna and Muffin.

Just a matter of putting them in their proper scumgroups.

[HezLucky]

Hez, FYI...I'm naturally leery of those who agree with me too much and I'm not confident enough in my abilities to assume I have pegged the last 4 scum. It justs makes sense IMO at the moment. I can't see DK being town but if he did flip that way (by some miracle), and coupled with the next NK, then I would have to look things over again....and you would move up into contention

It would make a hell of a story. I like it when games are wrapped up.

But as long as we lynch Magna/Muffin today I could care less about your read on me.

[HezLucky]

Magna has spent the entire game planning lynches, and I don't think he would do this without the ability to kill (too much uncertainty -- it would be futile to try).

I also think that Muffin and Magna are on the same side, given how scummy each of them are individually and teh fact that neither of them seem to suspect aech other at all.

[HezLucky]

^^^ ugh, that above post is not helpful.

I've stated repeatedly that I'm only going to be voting for Magna or Muffin, so don't expect a hammer from me.

Neil, if you want to live, I suggest you get something started on one of those two.

[HezLucky]

Is there anyone (outside of Hez himself and Havingfitz) who has any sort of Town read on Hez?

So let me get this straight: you're trying to intimidate/scare me into voting neil so that I can "look better" to the town? Screw that. I already told you I don't play to a meta. And you are EXTREMELY scum. (Appeal to fear noted. Hah.)

When are we going to lynch this guy? Anyone who loses has only themselves to blame.

[HezLucky]

Also, quite consistent with Magna trying to set up lynches this entire game. How is this guy not lynched yet?

[HezLucky]

I find it truly fascinating how so many people treat this game as a puzzle. What happens when you've deciphered all the clues, only to find out you are completely wrong?

On the other hand, I choose to go with my gut-tastic gut, which has nabbed two scum. :shrug:

[HezLucky]

Yes, I'm mocking you. All of you.

Unfortunately this doesn't work as well as five years ago, as I no longer have a meta. Or else you'd just FOLLOW THE HEZ and lynch some scum.

[HezLucky]

I think Hez is a werewolf and I do think Wicked is likely his partner. I'm much less confident in my Wicked read, though - it's mostly based on his interaction with Hez D1.

Of course you do. It's the most convenient thing for you to think I'm a werewolf, because that's what we're lynching today.

Let me guess -- you killed my #1 town read, and want to frame it on me. It's garbage like this that makes it obvious that Magna/Muffin are DA WOLVES.

still just gonna sit here while the town finds a way to lose the game

[HezLucky]

enough chat with you. talking to scum won't get me anywhere.

oh remaining townies wherever you are.
we are few and far between
we must band together and rid ourselves
of dirty dirty scum
muffin and magna
and whoever the two others are

i could solve this game
but it would be meaningless
as my vote is only one

i need you all to band together
as half the remaining are scum
if the town does not play well
we stand no chance to get out alive

to vote or not to vote
that is the question
whether tis nobler in the mind to go after guaranteed scum
when you cannot convince anyone of your position
alas, poor horatio, i hardly knew ye

nevertheless, everyone has their reads
and it is pretty hard to be wrong
when half of the people in this game
have win cons that are town-non

despite this all
your scumdar is crap
take it from me
i can carry you on my back
but it requires some trust
and some potential sheep
if you want to win this game
you'd be advised to go without a peep

vote for magna or muffin
2011



--- the emo poet, who doesn't expect to be listened to at all today, and will be saying he told you so once the game is finished

[HezLucky]

Because there is no reason to have any sort of violent reaction to being prodded as Town. Add in the “Why didn’t you prod Regfan” bit (which I find a mild scum-tell) and bingo – there you go.

Fix your meta MoI. It's awful. This is more for after the game, but I was extremely mad when I got prodded by the mod because I've spent the last however many months playing this game and developing my reads, and I would be very upset if I had to leave it for a non-game related reason. And I am town. (This is for after the game when you can revisit this point)

Arguing with you is funny. You say that I'm scummy for not explaining something, but you call everything a misrepresentation, an inconsistency or IIoA without explaining how it actually is one of those things and why it's scummy.

Wicked wrote:
1. The 'links' you've pointed out connecting HezLucky and I revolve around very weak/invalid reasoning.
2. In response to several/most of my arguments you have dismissed them as false without explaining why.
3. On day 1, once I made it clear I was convinced in my points against you, you attacked me over something that I had said a while ago. Furthermore, you tried to, with invalid reasoning, make me look hypocritical for this attack instead of defending yourself.
4. You are guilty of a lot of IIoA and misrep.
5. You tried to use meta to support your case against a person when that player has never been scum.
6. You are guilty of several inconsistencies.

1. No. None of the links I pointed out are invalid or weak. I don't care how much 'reasoning' you think you had behind any of the votes that looked like possible chainsaws, they're still links.
2. lol
3. lol
4. no
5. Oh, got me. I must be scum.
6. no

More like.

1. They were all invalid, weak and garbage. You were reaching so much that I could just as easily come up with links on any two players (though why I would want to is beyond me - it's scum motivated) by stretching as much as you did.
2. You don't appreciate irony, do you?
3. See #2
4. Yes. You are incredibly guilty of it.
5. So you admit that your meta argument on me is crap?
6. "Where?" would have been a better and more credible response to this.

[HezLucky]

So wait you've run out of reasons to vote having, who has looked town today (unlike his replacement -- sucks that your planning his lynch didn't go the way you wanted), and so you are going to buddy on someone else rather than vote for either "Neil or Hez" because

a) the Neil wagon has lost steam
b) you want to seem reasonable to the only person who wants you lynched?

Very strategic, MoI.

[HezLucky]

You say it’s pointless because it doesn’t support your suspicions towards Sloth. You have been quite generous with your MISREPs and the fact your suspect play is going unnoticed by everyone other than Hez is frustrating.

This. Oh my god this. I know half the town is scum but this is pretty much why I am clearing havingfitz for at least two in-game days. MoI's werewolf buddy won't vote him, but the other two mafia are really scared that MoI will draw attention to them. After all, as I have stated, he can make a convincing case on a box of pizza. You people are being swayed by the fact that being able to accuse someone well =/= them being scum. MoI has IGNORED that point this entire game, and I am of the strong belief that MoI would do no such thing as town. When was the last time MoI has made a case on someone and decided "this person is scummy but just playing poorly"? Scum-MoI would never do that --> it removes potential lynch targets. Yet any true townie would.

(and if he has done that this game, it certainly hasn't been emphasized -- notice how I, for example, have constantly emphasized that I think DK is a huge VI, but not actually scum. I'm not sure about that stance anymore, but the fact is I have repeated it over and over. If MoI has infact found someone scummy but decided they aren't scum this game, then he's certainly pushed it by the wayside, and given is 150-200 posts over the game I doubt anyone is going to find some little line or paragraph hidden on Day 2 when it comes time for MoI to want to lynch that person)

In conclusion, MoI is not playing pro-town. Scum make cases on people. Pro-town players CONSIDER cases on people (they are afraid to be wrong). MoI has not considered any cases on people, he just makes them.

This doesn't go against my suspicions, but I'm not going to argue that it supports my suspicions. Hez didn't participate in either lynch. I think Hez is a werewolf and his buddy was likely on both lynches. Wicked would be my top pick for his partner. They haven't voted together at all this game. After Wicked jumped off the Emp wagon, Hez jumped on it. Wicked never went back to Emp, and Hez never went over to Twisted, even after the Emp wagon died.

Your ability to make up evidence is astounding, but you are no MoI. Thank you for pointing this out to me. Hey Wicked, join me in voting for Magna or Muffin. Please? I think your town but I really wish our scumdars were aligned.

[HezLucky]

Where is everyone? I'm sitting here trying to avoid my third 48-hour strike and nobody is posting a thing!

[HezLucky]

This part:

1. I think Hez is a werewolf and his buddy was likely on both lynches.
2. Wicked would be my top pick for his partner.
3. They haven't voted together at all this game.
4. After Wicked jumped off the Emp wagon, Hez jumped on it.
5. Wicked never went back to Emp, and Hez never went over to Twisted, even after the Emp wagon died.

1 is made up, as it's not true.

4 implies I jumped on the Emp wagon because Wicked jumped off it. Not true.
5 implies the two of us are voting based on how the other is voting. Also not true. [though I wish we were voting together - would make my life a lot easier]

not true = made up.
Did you expect a different response or something? Or are you playing a game of semantics?

[HezLucky]

We'll see about that.

[HezLucky]

In conclusion, MoI is not playing pro-town. Scum make cases on people. Pro-town players CONSIDER cases on people (they are afraid to be wrong). MoI has not considered any cases on people, he just makes them.

This has to be some of the worst logic I have ever seen.
1. You're attempting to say that town just consider cases instead of making them, that means you're stating townies just consider cases proposed by scum.
2. You're attempting to create a case on MoI saying he's scum due to the fact he's creating cases elsewhere.
3. You state townies consider cases while not considering any cases at the same time (You openely state you refuse to vote elsewhere from Muffin/Magna today)

Your defense of MoI is completely and utterly noted. I tend not to do points this late in the game, but if I did you would have gone up greatly now for being so blatant about it. (something like +8)

1. This is completely foolish. Either you are disgusting scum or you misunderstood my point. I will let you choose which. Pro-town players "consider" cases on people means that since they are afraid to be wrong, pro-town players are constantly assessing whether or not their case is valid. In other words, they think about whether or not INSERTPLAYERHERE is scum, and if they decide he is, they make the case. As opposed to what MoI is doing which is deciding in advance that he wants to attack INSERTPLAYERHERE, and making a case on that person contrary to any new evidence or thoughts that come up. When was the last time you saw MoI admit he was wrong abotu a read this game? Or change his mind at all? Town players change minds. Scum are too scared to be accused of flip-flopping to change their mind. Hence, scum make cases without constantly considering the validity of them.

2. I guess this is explained in my response to #1 above.

3. I am not wrong about Magna or Muffin. I have held a very open mind towards everyone else. For example, you have gone up in my suspicion list, and Neil and DK are flipflopping on my scumdar constantly. However, I choose to go with one of my two strongest scumreads today.


In fact, Regfan's reads have largely sucked all game. He's been defending the wrong players and accusing the wrong ones. I will assess him tomorrow if one of Magna/Muffin can be lynched today.

[HezLucky]

With 8 alive and only one kill per night, I'm not proposing no lynch or anything, but I could really care less if we hit deadline without a lynch. (that brings us to 7, which is statistically better for the town. Am I wrong?)

I would be playing against my win condition if I were to vote for anyone other than Magna or Muffin at this point.

Accidental no lynch makes 7. Then we're in the same situation as before. I'd rather lynch scum, but it seems you guys don't want to do that.

[HezLucky]

He flips town/mafia, well, we can go from there.

elaborate on this please.

[HezLucky]

What, exactly, do you plan on doing when I flip town besides winning the game for your scumfaction?

[HezLucky]

Why hf? He's not pushing me at all.

[HezLucky]

What does that have to do with anything?

PoE, VCA and NK WIFOM. If you're not a werewolf, at least one of MoI or hf is a werewolf.

In the interests of having something to pin you to later

If I understand you correctly:

There is at least one werewolf in {Hez, MoI, HF}

Is there anyone in this game who you feel very confident is NOT a werewolf?

[HezLucky]

And you understand why we're having this discussion, right Muffin?

[HezLucky]

Thank you for that. We got what I needed.

The reason we were having this discussion was because your entire Day today has consisted of nothing but pushing that "Hez is a werewolf and Wicked is his partner". I'm not sure you have posted a single other read all day, so if the time comes and I am lynched and pop up as anything but werewolf, you will go "Oh shucks I was wrong" and, having not posted any other reads, will lynch whoever you please.

Thankfully, now you are accountable for your actions. Although, I am uncomfortable with you lynching me, bussing MoI tomorrow and riding the bus to victory. Something needs to be done about that.

[HezLucky]

Tomorrow's going to suck for you.

Unless this town is as stupid as I think it is.

[HezLucky]

VCAing today, since it's clear nobody will listen to a damn thing I say about Magna and Muffin.

(yo I've, like, never done a VCA before. So if this is totally off let me know)

Neil's wagon hit 4.

neil1113 (4) - Regfan, Wickedestjr, DeityKabuto, MagnaofIllusion (One vote away from lynch!)
HezLucky (1) - zMuffinMan
MagnaofIllusion (1) - HezLucky
DeityKabuto (1) - havingfitz

Not Voting: neil1113

And I'm thinking -- what if Neil is scum? and what if his buddy, seeing that I didn't want to hammer Neil, thought
the chances of Neil's lynch were very small and thus stayed off it rather than bus? This would make either Muffin or
Having as Neil's buddy.

Then the wagon got smaller:

Vote Count:

neil1113 (3) - Regfan, DeityKabuto, MagnaofIllusion
HezLucky (1) - zMuffinMan
MagnaofIllusion (1) - HezLucky
DeityKabuto (1) - havingfitz

Not Voting: neil1113, Wickedestjr

Maybe Wicked is scum? and thought "Hez won't lynch Neil, and it's highly unlikely the other two can agree, so if I unvote Neil now
I can save him completely".

Vote Count:

neil1113 (2) - Regfan, DeityKabuto
HezLucky (1) - zMuffinMan
MagnaofIllusion (1) - HezLucky
DeityKabuto (1) - havingfitz
havingfitz (1) - Wickedestjr

Not Voting: neil1113, MagnaofIllusion

What's changed? Magna is no longer voting. And wicked is voting for havingfitz. I really can't gather any information from this. Note
that a counterwagon has not yet formed though.

Vote Count:

neil1113 (2) - Regfan, DeityKabuto
havingfitz (2) - Wickedestjr, MagnaofIllusion
HezLucky (1) - zMuffinMan
MagnaofIllusion (1) - HezLucky
DeityKabuto (1) - havingfitz

Not Voting: neil1113

Now Magna has started a counterwagon on havingfitz. What if, Magna, as the third vote on the Neil wagon, was bussing HIS buddy, and is now
building a counterwagon that has a shot of getting going?

Vote Count:

neil1113 (2) - Regfan, DeityKabuto
havingfitz (2) - Wickedestjr, MagnaofIllusion
DeityKabuto (2) - havingfitz, neil1113
HezLucky (1) - zMuffinMan
MagnaofIllusion (1) - HezLucky

This is the most recent votecount. Now Neil has voted DK. Maybe as a potential lynch target, Neil does not want to vote having because he is not
confident in his ability to close out the game?

Are Neil and havingfitz scum together? (Surely Magna and Muffin are the other scum)

I'm going to look at the rest of the game.

Neil/havingfitz being scum together would be consistent with the following:

Twistedspoon (7) - zMuffinMan, Wickedestjr, Caboose, Sloth, MagnaofIllusion, Regfan, DeityKabuto (HAMMER!)
Empking (1) - cjdrum
DeityKabuto (1) - Twistedspoon
neil1113 (1) - Empking
HezLucky (1) - neil1113
MagnaofIllusion (1) - HezLucky

This is the Day One lynchwagon. Notice Havingfitz (Sloth) is on the TS mislynch, while cjdrum and Neil are both off it. Don't want to be linked
early?

Here's a Day Two count:

Vote Count:

HezLucky (2) - LynchMePls, zMuffinMan
cjdrum (1) - Regfan
MagnaofIllusion (1) - HezLucky
neil1118 (1) - DeityKabuto
DeityKabuto (1) - MagnaofIllusion

Not Voting: cjdrum, neil1113, Sloth, Wickedestjr.

okay. So I'm the leading wagon. It's LMP, whose reads sucked but is dead confirmed twon, and Muffin, who has proudly tunneled me all game long.

Here's the next vote count:

Vote Count:

HezLucky (3) - LynchMePls, zMuffinMan, Regfan
DeityKabuto (2) - MagnaofIllusion, neil1113
MagnaofIllusion (1) - HezLucky
neil1113 (1) - DeityKabuto

Not Voting: cjdrum, Sloth, Wickedestjr.

I looked at the order. DK got his second vote BEFORE I got my third vote. And I don't think Regfan has voted me at all for the rest of this game.
Perhaps Regfan was building a counterwagon against DeityKabuto on me?

cjdrum (5) - MagnaofIllusion, Wickedestjr, DeityKabuto, LynchMePls, neil1113 (One vote away from lynch!)
HezLucky (2) - zMuffinMan, Regfan
Sloth (2) - LynchMePls, cjdrum
DeityKabuto (1) - neil1113
neil1113 (1) - DeityKabuto
zMuffinMan (1) - HezLucky

This is interesting. The one before this has Magna as the ONLY vote. I'm not sure Magna is mafia, but I am sure he is scum, which is why I want
Magna, the werewolf, lynched today. As I said before, first time doing a VCA, but Magna as the only vote on cjdrum --> Magna as the first vote on
a lynchwagon. Does that make sense as a mafia? I think Magna is a wolf.

CJDrum would then hammer himself. Why is this significant?
The two pairings I've looked at above, which are {Having/Sloth, Neil} and {Regfan, Deity} ... not a single one of them is on the cjdrum lynchwagon.
Does that make sense? Surely you'd bus cjdrum for street cred, yes? Does this mean my pairings are wrong?




So I have never done a VCA before. Please tell me which parts of this are valid, so that I can learn from them.

Basically I'm at the situation:
Possible Mafia pair: {Havingfitz, Neil}
Possible Mafia pair: {Regfan, DeityKabuto}
*Werewolf pair: {MagnaofIllusion, MuffinMan}

* I have linked these two all game. They refuse to talk to each other, vote for each other, find each other suspciious. Hell, they rarely question
each other. Muffin has largely stayed out of Magna's way by tunneling me, while Magna does his thing and sway the town to lynch whomever he wants.

This was a semi-useful exercise, that I can use in future days if I am alive, but we are lynching wolves today: it'll be Magna or Muffin.

[HezLucky]

Further proof that Magna of Illusion is scum comes in his ISO #82.

Magna votes for havingfitz, with possible additional werewolf suspects as "Hez or Neil"

Clearly Magna must've noticed the same connection between Neil and havingfitz that I did (he also tacked me on because I am an easy lynch). However, he ignored the connection between {Neil, havingfitz} and cjdrum, because that would make them mafia and reduce his lynch targets. Magna is scumhunting in search of who the mafia are, because he ultimately needs to find and kill them. However, when he thought he found the mafia ("Neil and havingfitz"), he threw in my name as an easy lynch target, and branded us all as werewolves to get us lynched today.

I am completley confident Magna is a wolf. It's unfortunate this is all falling on deaf ears.

[HezLucky]

Actually your vote puts me at a grand total of a whopping TWO votes.

Care to explain your vote? Or how your read of me has directly correlated throughout the game with whether or not I've been accusing you?

[HezLucky]

Actually, there are AT LEAST two people I would lynch before you (Magna & Muffin - I have said this _all day_). Make that three. The person I have you paired with, Regfan, is super sketch now.

[HezLucky]

Holy crap Regfan has the same reads as MoI.

I'm unsure what to make of this.

[HezLucky]

I'm running the numbers.

eight alive
if we lynch town that's seven. [3 town 2 maf 2 wolf]

1) wolf kills maf
six alive [3 town 1 maf 2 wolf] mislynch is game over regardless

2) wolf kills town
six alive [2 town 2 maf 2 wolf]

2a) lynch wolf [2 town 2 maf 1 wolf]
2a1) wolf kills town then don't mafia win?

Yep. Two mafia, one town, and one werewolf is a mafia win.

2a2) wolf kills maf then 2 town 1 maf 1 wolf town must lynch wolf to win]

2b) lynch town [1 town 2 maf 2 wolf] or lynch maf [2 town 1 maf 2 wolf]
2b1) wolf kills anyone its endgame yes?

Conclusion: If you lynch a townie, tomorrow is lynch-or-lose.

Conclusion 2: hey mafia, I know you're out there. Don't be stupid.

[HezLucky]

Let's play "outguess the mod"

This town is clearly in shambles. If scum were causing this, I don't think the mod would be so upset.

However, I think the mod would be very angry if a "crappy town" were causing this. Conclusion: TOWN cannot agree on anything. TOWN+MAFIA cannot agree on anything.

What can we gather from this?

[HezLucky]

Umbrage wrote:
neil1113 (4) - Regfan, Wickedestjr, DeityKabuto, MagnaofIllusion (One vote away from lynch!)
HezLucky (1) - zMuffinMan
MagnaofIllusion (1) - HezLucky
DeityKabuto (1) - havingfitz

Not Voting: neil1113

I therefore propose that at least two people not on the neil wagon are town.

Also. Magna is SCUM. SCUM SCUM SCUM. DIE MAGNA DIE.

Possible update: {Magna, Regfan} instead of {Magna, Muffin} as the wolves?

I DON'T KNOW ANYMORE.

[HezLucky]

Also, worth noting, is that I was the person who was most upfront about "not voting for Neil". Thus, I need to be placed in one of those two townslots.

[HezLucky]

Unfortunately that probably changes way more than I am comfortable admitting.



Anyhoo, I just thought of something. With 4 scum in total out of 8 -- I am going to propose a thought experiment.

Wicked and Havingfitz both have weak town reads on me, from what I remember.
The other 5 have voted for me at some point during the game.

(This is assuming I flip townie, for the braindead)
THE LYNCH HYPOTHESIS: I propose that the only way I can be lynched is if all four scum are on my wagon. This follows from LEMMA SIXTY-SEVEN.

For one scum to dodge THE LYNCH HYPOTHESIS, one of Wicked and having would have to switch to my wagon --> and it makes NO sense to lynch someone you have even a weak town read on when there are four scum rampant in the game. Thus, their switch would be opportunistic. Therefore, I would not be lynched if a scum were to try and avoid THE LYNCH HYPOTHESIS because that will be only four votes. I will never self-hammer.

LEMMA SIXTY-SEVEN: The most likely person to be lynched today is someone the mafia thinks is scummy but who is not a werewolf. This result leads directly to THE LYNCH HYPOTHESIS. (In other words, the most likely lynch today is a scummy townie -- this lemma may also explain why Neil was not lynched earlier -- that he is not a scummy townie)

I may have absolutely no influence over this town (we are royally f'ed anyway regardless of who is lynched unless it's Magna/Muffin) but I can at least hope that THE LYNCH HYPOTHESIS is taken into account if I am to be lynched and flipped townie.

No way a scum will not be a part of my lynch. All four of them will be on it. Count it. Book it. Take it to the bank.

Man this is fun. Just as I'm getting into the game.

[HezLucky]

Vote: MagnaofIllusion

Still. Though I'm thinking it through very much and want to see Neil's post.

[HezLucky]

Magna, we GET IT. You can make a case on a paper bag. This is nothing new.

Yet this is exactly why you are scum. You have never not once even considered that you could be wrong about anything. That's not pro-town play. You are by far the scummiest in this game.

[HezLucky]

Actually the above raises a very valid point about you never admitting that you are wrong and how that is not at all pro-town play.

But keep smearing me. Because it seems that's all you do -- attempt to discredit while ignoring the actual INCREDIBLY LEGITIMATE point against you.

This, however, is rhetoric: DIE SCUM DIE.

[HezLucky]

Re: your second point.

That's not my argument. My argument is that it doesn't seem Magna has done that about ANYONE. The words "I'm unsure" or "this might be because ______ rather than because he/she's scum" or "I've changed my mind my read was originally _____ and now it's ______" etc. etc. have not been a part of his vocabulary throughout this game. This is extremely scummy.

It's fine to really really really think someone is scum. Be convinced that you are right. That's fine. What's not fine is doing that for nearly every player in the game, and never/rarely changing your mind on anyone.

[HezLucky]

Like yours it’s an self-serving waste of time. He grabbed a few vote counts that supported his pre-conceived notions and presented them as 'evidence'. A VC Analysis takes ALL vote counts into effect and looks for behavior patterns.

What preconceived notions? My only preconceived notion was the Magna/Muffin wolf alliance of doom. Those potential mafia pairings were not at all preconcieved.

Hez can’t be Evil Sheep.
Evil Sheep is DK / one of Muffin or Regfan
One of Neil or Hez is wolves but they can’t be partners as Wolves..
Likewise one of Muffin / Wicked / Having / Reg is scum but they can’t be partners as Wolves.

Noted.

So let me get this straight. If Neil is lynched and pops up wolf I am confirmed innocent in your eyes?

Are you sticking to that?


I read your post and sadly there is very little that can actually be responded to .

Also very disappointed in the overall activity level of some players currently in this game.

[HezLucky]

Oh Hez - where does your 'strong belief' about what Town-MoI come from again? We've never played together so I am very curious the source of your vast meta-knowledge.

This is not a meta. (Although I do read mafia games to hone my scumdar and you have been in those games that I've read before -- this is not a you-specific meta)

LynchMePls wrote:
TOWN
MagnaofIllusion
Regfan
neil1113
DeityKabuto
zMuffinMan
Wickedestjr
cjdrum
HezLucky
Sloth
SCUM


I'm reposting this read list from LMP to remind the Town players to not simply ignore the dead Townie's reads.

He was killed for a reason.

Having and Hez sit at the very top of his scum list.

Nightkill WIFOM. I did this before, now you're doing it. Why is this significant? Because you're a planner, MoI. You plan everything
through like this. It's too bad that SOMEHOW Hez was able to avoid today's lynch. That's okay. You'll vote for Neil and I'll be
tomorrow's lynch. Neil isn't going to pop up wolf, because you're the wolf. Hence why you're comfortable with "clearing" me if Neil
pops up wolf -- you know it won't happen.

LMP died -- its possible he died because his scumreads were SPECTACULAR. However -- I know I'm not scum. CJDrum is dead. Wicked is
arguably my strongest town read. I think his list just sucked and someone wants to play WIFOM with it to justify some lynches. I think
that person is you.

Note that I had a townread on the Caboose slot, which was asked to be explained to me by multiple players -- MoI being one of them.
I can play nightkill WIFOM too. I claim that my reasoning on the Caboose townread was surprisingly solid enough that he became
unlynchable, and was nightkilled as a result. This possibility is just as likely and, given that I know my alignment, far more
plausible. You brought up the WIFOM and, in my eyes, it hurts your case.

In case you're wondering about my sudden change in playstyle, I'm strangely calm right now. Like the wind before a major storm. As I
said before, you can't meta me.

[HezLucky]

This is a message to Neil.

As of yesterday, I didn't even have a scumread on you. As of today, my only two scumreads that I feel good about are Magna and Muffin
(originally I didn't care -- but Magna is just _slightly_ higher and preferred at the moment, because of a possible link I see with
Regfan)

Needless to say, when I did my VCA, and I thought hard about it, I realized that it is very very hard with 8 alive for 5 people (esp
with 2 scumgroups) to agree on a lynch -- the most likely person to be lynched is one that the mafia find scummy (they want a werewolf)
but they are wrong about (so that the werewolves can get behidn the lynch too). For this reason, I hold the fact that you were not
lynched and juts sitting at 4 votes against you. This is consistent with the fact that I believe it is very hard for this many people
to agree on anything given how many scum are amongst us (think about it -- 5/6 = 83% agreeance. If Muffin is townie, then a lynch is
literally impossible given our "tunneling" of each other).

I would like to read your closing post. I hope nobody drops the hammer on you before. I am not confident enough, though, to just use
my "play the odds" reasoning given above on such an important day. I would rather lynch Magna or Muffin. Or even Regfan, over you.
It would be a better play. If you are interested, I am offering you the chance not to be lynched today -- vote for one of these
three. It's a play I am far more comfortable with. It will give me more information. And a lynch (especially on the first two) will
allow me to completely reassess my reads in tihs game based on the flip, and be less one-dimensional.

Let it be noted, though, that I have every intention to vote for you if your play is outside those listed in the above paragraph. Don't think of this as an ultimatum -- I'm just being upfront with what I plan on doing.

Good luck. Try not to be scum.

HEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZWAVRE

[HezLucky]

So this means you'll be vote #3 on the Magna wagon yes?

SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET

[HezLucky]

Magna, you are great at raising completely relevant points on many players (such as with your last post)

The problem is, because of your playstyle, your inability to admit that you're wrong, and the fact that you are capable of making a case on anyone, I just cannot believe a word you say until you flip.

[HezLucky]

I've been on Muffin all day.

Have you not been paying attention?

[HezLucky]

Wicked, talk to me. You're the person I want to have a conversation with right now about this current situation we're in.

Regfan is also sensible, but may be scum.

[HezLucky]

I have voted for Muffin. I can confidently say that without looking.

I'm not voting for him for "setting up lynches" though. That's why I'm voting for YOU.

[HezLucky]

But when has there been momentum for ANY of my lynches? Outside of the past 24 hours?

Context, MoI. Context.

[HezLucky]

Neil if you don't get off DK this day will never end.

[HezLucky]

Good. We have 4 days now. Neil, you promised a post. I think it would be a good idea to post whatever it is you promised because it might a) change people's read on you and/or b) change people's read on Magna.

[HezLucky]

The good thing about crosskills is that if Magna is town then the wolves HAVE to kill mafia tonight. (see top post of pg 31)

[HezLucky]

Vote: neil

Should've caught onto the opportunism yesterday.

I am indeed the townie you are searching for, Regfan, but that doesn't necessarily mean I believe you are one as well.

[HezLucky]

We can play nightkill WIFOM.

Werewolves HAD to kill mafia last night. Let's just look at posts and see who thought wicked was scummy.

Because he looked really obvious town to me.

{will do so in a bit}

[HezLucky]

Unvote

We need to hit a WOLF specifically. I agree neil is scum but I'm giong to think this over.

[HezLucky]

DK can you tell us your reads? (ie. which 2 are wolves, mafia and town?)

[HezLucky]

I've done some reading and I have a vague idea of what's going on but I want to hear from everyone first.

[HezLucky]

Muffin what's your read on neil?

[HezLucky]

Hmm sorry it seems like you've answered this.

Don't expect a vote from me tonight I plan on doing some ISO work tomorrow (NBA Finals game 6 right now then sleep)

Want to hear from havingfitz.

[HezLucky]

can't be a werewolf is hilarious, really.

If either town or mafia is lynched today, werewolves win (and nothing can prevent this). If a werewolf is lynched today, regardless of the night kill, all the remaining werewolf needs to do is not get lynched again and he wins as long as he kills one mafia either tonight or tomorrow night. So not seeing how Regfan-wolf wouldn't kill Wicked, especially if he were planning to use the absurd NK WIFOM argument to reason that he can't be a wolf.

Umbrage already confirmed that 1 werewolf-1 town - 2 mafia is an endgame win for the mafia.

So if we lynch a werewolf today the other werewolf MUST kill mafia or he loses.

[HezLucky]

Anyone else want to claim scum?

[HezLucky]

I'm not playing to your win condition, and I don't care whether no lynch benefits you. It benefits town. Stop squirming.

I'm starting to run the numbers on no lynch and am realizing that it makes a whole slew of assumptions that the werewolves are playing directly to win, rather than not to lose.

For example, in the situation of 1 wolf 1 mafia 2 town with the wolves to make a nightkill if either

a) the wolf has no idea who the mafia is.
or
b) the wolf knows exactly who the mafia is but the 2 town look SO TOWN that there is no way the wolf can win a final 3

the wolf will kill the townie and try and lynch the mafia on day.

what's the problem? nothing for the wolf. but 1-1-1 is a situation the town cannot win.

[HezLucky]

in other words the town can lynch correctly tomorrow and still lose the game if the wolf messes up (adn its not even really messing up, as i've shown above, it's juts preventing the town from winning)

[HezLucky]

lynch a wolf today wolf kills mafia tonight we are at 1-1-2 a second wolf lynch does it.

yes it requires us to be RIGHT TWICE IN A ROW but if we are right we will not lose the game due to a reliance on nightkills.

tell me what you think

[HezLucky]

FWIW I already know between Regfan and Neil who I will be lynching today. The only question is whether or not I want to lynch today.

[HezLucky]

While the best Muffin can now do is a draw, Regfan's team can still win.

And I have no intention of playing to Muffin's draw.

Vote: neil

Thanks for saving me 35 pages of rereading.

[HezLucky]

Now that Muffin has claimed scum and proposed a situation in which town cannot win, the town needs to make the only play that can possibly result in a town win -- vote for neil

Meaning the town + regfan + regfan's buddy can vote for neil, regfan killed at night, muffin lynched tomorrow and a final three with two town and a mafia.

In other words, Regfan's team is deciding between voting no lynch (playing to a guaranteed draw) or voting for the other scumfaction (playing to win)

And I do believe that's rule #8.


[[[and yes it's clear muffin and neil are teh WOLVES. they obviously didn't have enough confidence to close out the game so they killed the towniest looking person expecting to play for the draw instead - i can't see a wolf-team with regfan on it making such a kill]]]


So DK and havingfitz - Let's make it us three in the final three. Two townies and a mafia. It's anyone's game from there.

[HezLucky]

Once Muffin proposed a draw (aka. town loss) this game was unfortunately decided.

But gj wolves. That seer would've come in handy had he managed to survive -_-

[HezLucky]

Do we get to see scumtopics?

[HezLucky]

Still an enjoyable read. Thanks Muffin!

[HezLucky]

I just finished another mafia-werewolves game that had arguments like this: Mini 1152.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17173

The last 7-8 pages of that game might eb worth a read to those here.

[HezLucky]

err last 4 pages sorry its not that much reading