Mini 1159 - Powerrox93's Mini Normal I (Game Over)

[-L-]

@Yabba: I pondered the idea of StefanB's scumslip because it seemed so obvious; to ignore it and move on to other things would be avoiding something too obvious. The fact that his English is the way it is is likely playing into our favor.

[-L-]

yabba: Why do you find me to be unlikely scum? Or what is scummy about me?

[tarsonisocelot]

[L], I'm voting for you. If you want, you can refute my case. Regardless I want more votes for you.

Well, frankly, you've seen me play as scum. I am much....shall we say....different. My town approach is to analyze more... but this game started out so disgustingly that I haven't even done that. I'll be honest - I haven't been involved in the game the way I wanted to be. I'm frustrated. But I'm not giving up on the game because I'm the type to see things through to their end.

So when you are scum you play this way but as town you analyze more? And this is meant to make us think you are town.

"vote was useless": My vote on TO was not useless, because it was not a pressure vote. I truly believe she is scum. Currently, I had to remove my vote to see how she behaves. I'm somewhat ambivalent right now, on her.

Do you believe I am scum or are you ambivalent on whether or not I am scum?

I truly believe that you are scum.


I've tunneled a bit in the past few pages, next post will focus on scumminess or towniness of other players.

[-L-]

I am in my heart convinced you are scum. My head, however, makes me ambivalent. Simple, really.

[Powerrox93]

Votecount 1.13

Updated as of post #178

StefanB (5) - imaginality, Me=Weird, andrew94, Mist7676, [L]
[L] (5) - tarsonisocelot, Zdenek, crazypianist1116, StefanB, Jase
tarsonisocelot (1) - yabbaguy

Not voting (2) - Surprise_Carcinogen, Uncle Pain

If there's a mistake let me know.
13 Alive == 7 to Lynch && 7 to No-Lynch

StefanB

will be lynched at deadline if votes doesn't change

V/LA

StefanB: April 30 - May 1
Powerrox93: May 12 - 15. Back-up mod Empking will look over the game while I'm away

Deadline

May 14 06:00 CEST

[yabbaguy]

I've tunneled a bit in the past few pages.

Not buying that remark. A glance at your ISO, and I see it more as someone who isn't even contriving it so much as they're just lazily tapping out a few points that kinda sorta maybe seem scummy to a sorta reasonable extent.

Much different than someone almost intoxicated with the disease of finding someone scummy no matter what. I don't see said plague running rampant.

Comprende?

yabba: Why do you find me to be unlikely scum? Or what is scummy about me?

[L] - With the greatest of hesitations, scum is the tilt for me. It really only derives from the fact that [L] makes a lot of "I" statements, very much "I think this", "this is who I think is scum", and does little to probe others. But at the same time, it's a wicked iffy tell. I think we could do better, but this is an okay complacency lynch for me.

That's the tell where I rationalized in my head that I could've settled. But then I realized ocelot, going after you, is far scummier. And Stefan, again, might as well be wearing the age-old nametag: HELLO My Name Is

"Town"

.

So while this isn't really something I can complain to our mod about, that votecount is a mistake. Those two wagons are both inbound for Town.

Can I stop shouting the same things now? I'm running out of cute rhetoric.

[Powerrox93]

imaginality has been prodded

Surprise_Carcinogen will be force-replaced if he doesn't make a post in the thread within 7 hours

[Me=Weird]

imaginality, Me=Weird, andrew94, Mist7676, [L]

Secondly Vote: Me=Weird
Sorry but I may be the only one who doesn't see the great townpost.

Obviously doesn't think I'm town.

Andrew I don't know, he is normally better in finding real scum and he did take a lot of time to make that point, when it did happen days ago.

Doesn't seem to think so here either.
And oh yeah, doesn't feel so great about mist either.

Vote: Mist

Plus, in that quote about andrew, he says real scum. If stefan were town, how would he know who's "real scum"? Heck, how would he even know who's scum?

If I must, I'll change to TIO, but I doubt it's going to come to that.

[Zdenek]

Because that would make it useless?

Sorry, I should have said right after she was called out on it.

Well, frankly, you've seen me play as scum. I am much....shall we say....different. My town approach is to analyze more... but this game started out so disgustingly that I haven't even done that.

Personally, I'd lynch people for doing as little talking as me.

At least you'll understand why you're swinging.

I am not interested in a Stefan lynch.

I think Ocelot's being mostly useless, but that [L] is scummier.

[Powerrox93]

Surprise_Carcinogen hasn't picked up his prod 48 hours after it was sent, so therefor I'm gonna search a replacement for him

[-L-]

Zdnek: I have

NOT

been swinging. I have voted two people.

[Powerrox93]

redtail896 replaces Surprise_Carcinogen. Merci!

[redtail896]

Hi everybody.

UNVOTE: until I've caught up. Won't be too long, I promise.

[redtail896]

Sorry for the delay. Internet issues + a 14 inning baseball game. I'm going to give my summary person by person here. I'm sorry for the length; I'm not normally this long-winded, but I feel the need to make up for lost time.

[L]: One of the primary wagons here. I can't possibly see why she found no logical reasons for the Jase wagon, and that seems very much to be an excuse after-the-fact; why wasn't she saying that to begin with? Comes up with an awful reason for her unvote (which was kind of out of the blue and w/o explanation anyway), and admits that she's not following her usual town meta. She doesn't really seem to do much actually (by her own admission). Overall, I feel like I just don't have enough information here to make an informed decision. I'll look at the anti-L cases in a bit more depth, but there might be bigger fish to fry.

Verdict: Slightly Leaning Mafia

andrew94: I just don't see what andrew has accomplished. He has what has already been noticed as the worst reasoning for voting Stefan, and beyond that is very centered on Jase for unclear reasons (or reasons that we've long since moved beyond). I see no real scumhunting here, and indeed little effort to give the appearance of scumhunting. Oh, and he's failed to respond to any of the comments about his Stefan vote.

Verdict: Leaning Mafia

crazypianist1116: Few posts, but I actually like what I see. Is willing to reconsider votes and suspicions, harps on andrew and stefan, is logical and willing to leap into a fray. I'd like to see more activity, but for now,

Verdict: Leaning Town

imaginality: Tends to stay with the safe wagons, but his reasoning is generally good. Nice tunnelling of Stefan, and helped to make a strong case. I want to see the promised examination of others.

Verdict: Leaning Town

Jase: Wow. Starts off so insanely scummy that I'm surprised a larger wagon never formed, and then turned around and became a fantastic player. Of his early play I'll say little, but there's quite a bit to glean from later stuff. There's a lot I could say, but as a form of summary I'll note that Post 168 was the moment I decided that he was closer to the town column.

Verdict: Leaning Town

Me=Weird: First to identify what he classifies as a Stefan scumslip, and tends (self-admittedly) to tunnel. I want his opinion of other people (he's really tunnelling), but I just don't find anything offensive here.

Verdict: Slightly Leaning Town

Mist7676: For starters, I completely disagree with her opinions on selfvoting; Stefan: you shouldn't selfvote. Beyond that, Mist is tunnelling Stefan, and barely contributing to that. Actually, I'm not clear on why you're voting for Stefan. My assumption is that you reposting imagin's case is an agreement, but you haven't really done any scumhunting yourself.

Verdict: Null

StefanB: Here we go. Weird unvote in Post #70. The real nail in the coffin for me is this post (#107):

Other strange thinks: Post 4 (first playerpost) were did the candyjoke come from? This sounds strange, wouldn't be a day later, but on Saturday it sounded strange.
BTW: The treads needs more Crazypianist und Zdenek(3 posts each) and of corse more GroupThink (a vote).
Uncle Pain: Sorry forgot to answer your question.

I did calm my anger. First I voted yabba to get a reaction, didn't like the reaction, so vote stayed.
I still think his gambit was a bad idea, and will be watching him. I would call him a slight townread, at the moment. Would like to watch him, when he isn't arguing with me, unfortunatly hasn't posted since nearly 2 days.

That description of his yabba vote sounds like revisionist history at best. Also, he's very much sitting on the fence here on the yabba issue, and I don't like that. He also misunderstands/represents the rhetorical question issue. I'm sympathetic to the "frustrated townie" view here, but overall my

Verdict:Leaning Mafia

tarsonisocelot: How has only yabbaguy jumped on TO? There is almost no content here. Just go read the ISO. Look at how much of TO's writing is fluff, unrelated, or small, unsubstantiated statements. All of her strongest statements are things that everybody will agree with anyway. Still has a vote on L, but I'm not sure I could tell you why. I encourage everybody to read this ISO (it won't take long).

Verdict: Leaning Mafia

Uncle Pain: Another poster that started weak (possibly to get a reaction), but clearly got better. I like a lot of his reasoning, particularly this:

Aw come on, what is this? First yabbaguy, then Jase, now [L]: you do a scummy mistake and later say “it was all planned to fish for reactions”. I’m sorry guys but this is just a tad too convenient. As much as I see that creating discussion is a valid townie move, I find baiting someone (or anyone) rather scummy because we townies don’t need to pull such tricks to find scum, plus it confuses town. The problem I see for myself here is that I don’t know how to evaluate this in terms of suspicion. I gotta admit that [L]’s trick looks the strangest. Not only because it looks the least planned and most retroactively justified of the three but also since she tried to particularly goad Surprise_Carcinogen. [L], do you have an actual case against him? As far as I see it, you dislike his statements about mafia theory and that’s it…

QFT. Really. The number of "act scummy then say later that I was looking for reactions" plays is absurd. Everybody needs to stop using that defense (you'll notice I consider it one of the big strikes against Stefan above). Overall: good reasoning and solid hunting.

Verdict: Leaning Town

yabbaguy: The original fake idiocy play, which went off rather well (in his eyes). I don't really like your player by player list in #151 though. I don't really see refutations of anti-Stefan cases, nor reasons that imagin is scum (it's not obvious to me that his case is "a bunch of nonsense") Other scum votes are very tentative. Jumps on TO, so it's unlikely that they are both scum (that would be a rather extreme bus). I'm unsure here; would be interested to hear others' thoughts.

Verdict: Null

Zdenek: I'd like to see more, but what I've seen has been good. Nice arguments concerning L (including what I think to be one of the best summaries of the case).

Verdict: Leaning Town

Whew, sorry that was so long.

TLDR: My scumreads are TO, Stefan, andrew, and [L]

Now, if we're going to stick with either Stefan or [L], I'll have more to say on that matter. However, I feel that a certain person has been sorely underinvestigated. So

VOTE: tarsonisocelot

[-L-]

I'd recommend you read my past games. I'm more "townie" when I'm scum. Thanks for the TO vote.

Vote:tarsonocelot

[Powerrox93]

Votecount 1.14

Updated as of post #189

[L] (5) - tarsonisocelot, Zdenek, crazypianist1116, StefanB, Jase
StefanB (4) - imaginality, Me=Weird, andrew94, Mist7676
tarsonisocelot (3) - yabbaguy, redtail896, [L]

Not voting (1) - Uncle Pain

If there's a mistake let me know.
13 Alive == 7 to Lynch && 7 to No-Lynch

[L]

will be lynched at deadline if votes doesn't change

V/LA

Uncle Pain: May 6 - 8
Powerrox93: May 12 - 15. Back-up mod Empking will look over the game while I'm away

Deadline

May 14 06:00 CEST

[StefanB]

@Yabba: I pondered the idea of StefanB's scumslip because it seemed so obvious; to ignore it and move on to other things would be avoiding something too obvious. The fact that his English is the way it is is likely playing into our favor.

Nice so my not using perfect English helps you to mislynch, nice to say it that clear L.
BTW Post 189 is terrible WIFOM.

Me=Weird: You have said I am scum the whole game. So you know that really and we should say your are scum, because you are sure. Sorry Mod that I am so drastic: THIS IS BS, like a lot in the case against me. I am sorry that I was so unmotivated, will try to make an argument against every post in the game against me. And you should try to play like the good player you are and not like that.

RedTail: The point no one seems to get is what I expected from my yabbaguyquestion. It was neither answer 1 nor 2 but an interessting 3. Sure I have been that clear with that but any player just try to think a little.

Tarsanisolot: Some of them are. We can't have that much scum. It will be your job to find them. I don't think that is anylonger a question on town or scum, there are 2 players who didn't say they think I am scummy (okay one of them did state that he doesn't want to lynch me at the moment and I'm afraid my next post could chance that)

Since I have not that much time, I will quote like that.
yabbaguy wrote:

@Stefan: How often do you get driven up in the votecount? Does it happen more when Town or scum?

Well I will answer this question not quite like you ask it. I have been lynched twice. One was Guardian of the Palace, whitch is hardly mafia, one other was an appatylynch in a Bastard mafia were everyone just wanted it to end. (I have goten 1 vote) Both times I was town, so town is probably the right answer. But both were marathan/ not normal mafiagames. In normal games, I have before this game never been voted before. (sorry to post that) I have "played" mafia once before (sorry was killed in it, before I actually played)

[StefanB]

Soory EBP:
yabbaguy wrote:

@Stefan: How often do you get driven up in the votecount? Does it happen more when Town or scum?

Well I will answer this question not quite like you ask it. I have been lynched twice. One was Guardian of the Palace, whitch is hardly mafia, one other was an appatylynch in a Bastard mafia were everyone just wanted it to end. (I have goten 1 vote) Both times I was town, so town is probably the right answer. But both were marathan/ not normal mafiagames. In normal games, I have before this game never been voted before. (sorry to post that) I have "played" mafia once before (sorry was killed in it, before I actually played)

[StefanB]

Sorry I have to get back to post 55 of Zdenek:

don't like that Stefan is trying to justify asking rhetorical questions. The fact that he asked one early is not a big deal (if it happened later in the game, I'd find it scummier), but his defense of it seems to be active lurking - contributing, but not scum hunting.

Okay his point was that my defense of the post was scummy.
Why: His reason It is active lurking - contributing but not scum hunting.

So one of the mainpoints was that I defend them in 21 (a posting so active lurking that it was interesting ignored and most players don't seem to get it)
I will fully admite that I have an active lurking in the RVS. I try a lot of thinks to start diskusion, doesn't always work.
I stay by my point and that is one question that no one has answered (exspecially not Me=Weird who uses this post as main point). How can you active lurk from ONE POST with over 20 posts?

[Uncle Pain]

Hi redtail896! I’d like to comment on some of your reads:

I'm sympathetic to the "frustrated townie" view here, but overall my

Verdict:Leaning Mafia

What exactly speaks against a frustrated townie in your opinion? yabbaguy seems to be very convinced of this theory.

tarsonisocelot: How has only yabbaguy jumped on TO? There is almost no content here. Just go read the ISO. Look at how much of TO's writing is fluff, unrelated, or small, unsubstantiated statements. All of her strongest statements are things that everybody will agree with anyway. Still has a vote on L, but I'm not sure I could tell you why. I encourage everybody to read this ISO (it won't take long).

Verdict: Leaning Mafia

You make a good point. I think most of us were/are busy with the existing wagons so we forgot about her (I include myself as well since I didn’t notice it myself). I’m willing to give this wagon a try depending on what she has to say in her next post, she even promised us reads.

Okay, now you’re pinging my scumdar. First, you seem to ignore all the inconsistencies in StefanB’s thoughts and call him an obvious townie. I could live with you disagreeing but ignorance is never townish. Second, that odd reaction that you just can’t tell. Sounds like an obvious attempt to throw dirt at imaginality. FoS: yabbaguy.

You can assert to the contrary all you want, but you're doing exactly that. You are FoSing me because you

don't agree with me

, either that, or accusing me of simple poor play. Just look at Stefan's attitude, moreso. This is such a common attitude of people who are relatively new to the game and are getting a wagon pressed on them. Whatever logic you're looking at, it's stupid. Stop and think about all the other games where there have been floundering relative-Newbies with a high wagon on them and their reactions. This falls straight into line, Stefan's content blasting through the roof, everything.

You keep playing leader but I don’t like your bossy approach and even more I don’t trust you. So don’t expect me to just believe every thought which

you

are convinced of. I like to follow my own thoughts. Furthermore, I’m one of these relatively-newbie players as well and as such I don’t have much experience with the difference between a newbie reaction and a “professional” reaction to pressure. While I can believe that StefanB’s oversensitive reaction may have been due to being a newbie (no offence meant!), I felt that there was at least some misunderstanding on his side, even going as far as to some erroneous behaviour that points to scum slips. This is what me and the others stated in this thread, yet you chose to just ignore it and declare it newbieness. I didn’t FoS you because you have a different opinion, I FoSed you because you ignored something. And in my book, ignoring things is either scummy or bad play. Considering your Mafia Scum experience, I go for the first.

Yes, I generated strong reactions in order to spark discussion. That's pro-Town. You still haven't gotten the principle 7 pages later.

Where do you draw the line between townish generation of strong reactions and scummy generation of confusion? Don’t you see why someone

can

find you scummy for doing questionable things? Pro-town is what helps town, confusion does not help town – still it’s at least part of what you created here.

So fuck your wagon, and fuck the [L] voters, too. Swap to ocelot please.

-.- Was this really necessary? If you’re pissed, please go elsewhere to let off steam. Keep it rational and stop insulting people.

Well, frankly, you've seen me play as scum. I am much....shall we say....different. My town approach is to analyze more... but this game started out so disgustingly that I haven't even done that. I'll be honest - I haven't been involved in the game the way I wanted to be. I'm frustrated. But I'm not giving up on the game because I'm the type to see things through to their end.

I'd recommend you read my past games. I'm more "townie" when I'm scum.

Please correct me if this is wrong: when you look scummy, you are town; when you look townie, you are scum. A is B and B is A. Seriously?! For someone being at L-2 you’re interestingly evasive, avoiding actual defence.

[redtail896]

Me=Weird: You have said I am scum the whole game. So you know that really and we should say your are scum, because you are sure. Sorry Mod that I am so drastic: THIS IS BS, like a lot in the case against me. I am sorry that I was so unmotivated, will try to make an argument against every post in the game against me. And you should try to play like the good player you are and not like that.

RedTail: The point no one seems to get is what I expected from my yabbaguyquestion. It was neither answer 1 nor 2 but an interessting 3. Sure I have been that clear with that but any player just try to think a little.

Why does that mean M=W is scum? I just don't understand what your case is there.

As for the second point there, I understand what you're saying, but you must see that it looks very revisionist from over here. Reading the post in question, I find it hard to believe that that is what you meant at the time.

What exactly speaks against a frustrated townie in your opinion? yabbaguy seems to be very convinced of this theory.

It's the revisionism re: yabbaguy. That looks to me like a slip; he felt a need to justify a past action and jumped on an excuse already used multiple times in the thread. To me, that is not the mark of town.

Well, frankly, you've seen me play as scum. I am much....shall we say....different. My town approach is to analyze more... but this game started out so disgustingly that I haven't even done that. I'll be honest - I haven't been involved in the game the way I wanted to be. I'm frustrated. But I'm not giving up on the game because I'm the type to see things through to their end.

I'd recommend you read my past games. I'm more "townie" when I'm scum.

Please correct me if this is wrong: when you look scummy, you are town; when you look townie, you are scum. A is B and B is A. Seriously?! For someone being at L-2 you’re interestingly evasive, avoiding actual defence.

I'll go a step further and say that it seems outright contradictory. L says that as town he analyzes more, but as scum he is more townie. So when scum, he analyzes more?

My understanding of the first quote was that he was defending his scummy behavior by saying he was so disgusted w/ the game that he avoided his usual analysis. If that is correct, then the latter quote makes no sense.

[StefanB]

Okay the rest of imaginalitys first post atacking me:

Yepp I always unvote to late, exspecially when a little angry (nothink like my play this game that was anger and just not beeing motivated) and reading those post I know why.
Interesting that you point this point about Zdenek. Has anyone in this game see me calm before?
And you think the point of the post is that good (look at last post). Anyone who use this anyone of you read Zdeneks post and you aggree?
Okay that was not a good post, I'm unfortunatly not a posting good like other players.
You realise that Me=Weird was called out for lurking before that, so not part of the discusion? GroupThink I wanted to invite to play, trying to make a nice atmosphäre to lure him in and bang. Sorry I have played a game with 2 late arrival, so I am a little naive in the game. And yes I fluffpost, I have been very silent this game. (for me)
About Yabbaguy: I was still not quite over beeing called a VI (hot bottum for me), So I didn't call him town yet, but I voted him for the wrong reason and unvoted. I give that I wanted to look around a bit and vote were I thought it would help town most (look at people staying under the raddar), reread the game (somethink that I couldn't bring myself to do later)...

[StefanB]

Me=Weird: You have said I am scum the whole game. So you know that really and we should say your are scum, because you are sure. Sorry Mod that I am so drastic: THIS IS BS, like a lot in the case against me. I am sorry that I was so unmotivated, will try to make an argument against every post in the game against me. And you should try to play like the good player you are and not like that.

RedTail: The point no one seems to get is what I expected from my yabbaguyquestion. It was neither answer 1 nor 2 but an interessting 3. Sure I have been that clear with that but any player just try to think a little.

Why does that mean M=W is scum? I just don't understand what your case is there.

As for the second point there, I understand what you're saying, but you must see that it looks very revisionist from over here. Reading the post in question, I find it hard to believe that that is what you meant at the time.
quote]

Point 1: No I didn't say it this post, Me=Weird could be just tunelling town, I just try to defend myself against him. My opinion is that he used very weak attacks against me all game, from my opinion and tunneled. So yeah I wan't better atacks from him on me and somethink on other players. That's a dare.

Point 2: My luck that I made a dumb mistake then.

Imaginality: I don't exspect him to answer that he is mafia, but do you exspect him to answere he is a bad player? Since he now has 2 votes on him, I exspect him to answer why he did it, which gives imformation on yabbaguy, so I don't think that was completly usless, beside it was part of my reason for voting yabba so for me not completly usless

That's post 21 after my attack on yabbaguy but before he answered. Its out there in the open. So how about this?

[StefanB]

Me=Weird: You have said I am scum the whole game. So you know that really and we should say your are scum, because you are sure. Sorry Mod that I am so drastic: THIS IS BS, like a lot in the case against me. I am sorry that I was so unmotivated, will try to make an argument against every post in the game against me. And you should try to play like the good player you are and not like that.

RedTail: The point no one seems to get is what I expected from my yabbaguyquestion. It was neither answer 1 nor 2 but an interessting 3. Sure I have been that clear with that but any player just try to think a little.

Why does that mean M=W is scum? I just don't understand what your case is there.

As for the second point there, I understand what you're saying, but you must see that it looks very revisionist from over here. Reading the post in question, I find it hard to believe that that is what you meant at the time.
quote]

Point 1: No I didn't say it this post, Me=Weird could be just tunelling town, I just try to defend myself against him. My opinion is that he used very weak attacks against me all game, from my opinion and tunneled. So yeah I wan't better atacks from him on me and somethink on other players. That's a dare.

Point 2: My luck that I made a dumb mistake then.

Imaginality: I don't exspect him to answer that he is mafia, but do you exspect him to answere he is a bad player? Since he now has 2 votes on him, I exspect him to answer why he did it, which gives imformation on yabbaguy, so I don't think that was completly usless, beside it was part of my reason for voting yabba so for me not completly usless

That's post 21 after my attack on yabbaguy but before he answered. Its out there in the open. So how about this?

[StefanB]

Hello Me=Weird let's talk about your first attack on me a bit:

Why was my reaction, so different than those of: Zdenek and Jase.
How was it different than your reaction to Jase (Yeah I suspect this guy but I totally vote this other guy just random and hell his reaction was making fun of immaginality, and we all toke that serious) or imaginalitys, Uncle Pains, SCs...
And then those points: I didn't miss that yabba is IC, this is not and never was an explenation for his first post. It's a sign, that he is not a bad player yes, your point.
We have talked about Zdeneks post, that is really somethink you want your case build on.
Sorry no strong point in here. There never was.
I fully admite on of my reason for voting you was envy. This guy posts such a bad (very bad) first post and is considered town. WTH are people thinking? So yes I votet a nullread now.
But the point stays you never had a good reason in game for your suspicion, even less for your vote.