Fall of the Matrix: Game Over!

[AGar]

-Agar: way too eager to confirm vezok. His posts on the issue give me a bad gut feeling.

I'm not "eager to confirm" him. I'm more wanting to run up the jackasses going "Lol VT claim, LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH."

Tell me the scum motivation for claiming Vanilla Townie, self-aware of meta or not, and locking yourself into that kind of claim? He basically just forced his scumteam in between a rock and a hard place if he's scum because they now essentially can't risk sending him out for a night kill. A track or watch that turns him up is going to result in his auto-lynch. Now his entire scumteam is forced to play that much better in order to hope that they aren't suspected enough to get nailed by any investigative results.

If you can show me any logical scum motivation outside of "self-aware of this meta", I'll be glad to relent and potentially move my vote. But right now I see no reason.

[HezLucky]

Hi guys.

A few posts caught my attention.

LlamaFluff #78 - His response to DeathNote irritates me. Specifically, the quote "So you want a policy lynch of
vezok, but you want to draw it out?". First of all, that's REALLY obvious - he wants to lynch someone (for whatever
reason) but wants the town to have the chance to discuss for future days. Regardless of DeathNote's alignment, that
logic makes perfect sense. LlamaFluff's response, to that, (and his post #78 in general) seems like an attempt to
ask leading questions to accuse people of scum. This is not inherently scummy, if your leading questions make sense,
but for a player as experienced as Llama to target DeathNote so explicitly with that statement (one that makes no
sense from a mafia theory perspective) just screams of a good player trying to exert his influence to get what he
wants, and in this case, Llama is scum and is frivously pushing for any lynch he can find. (I make no statement on
DN's alignment, but

FOS: LlamaFluff

) .. that was originally a vote, but then I read Llama #97 and so I feel
a bit better about this.

Llama #101 is just spouting mafia theory, so I hope no one tries to get a read based on that post.


Yosarian2 #79 - This post is highly noncommittal by Yosarian. Like Llama, I don't like the usage of asking questions
here.

I don't at all get what you're trying to say. If you think he was trying to repeat what I said, then why was it "scummy" or "contradictory"? What "mistake" do you think he made, that may more may not have been a "slip", but is "scummy"? What do you want him to clarify?

This post really feels like Toon Fighter is trying to have it both ways about the death note case, trying to attack Death Note and "sound reasonable" at the same time, and I dislike it.

Lots of questions to suggest that the person is scummy, and a vague statement that tries to sway people to his side while being too passive to really make it seem to anyone like he cares about this wagon. Yos2/Toon Fighter buddies?


DeathNote #80 - guys, this is fine logic in theory IF you believe that Vez is scum. I don't believe anyone who thinks
Vez is town should be lynching on this logic. I don't think DeathNote should be attacked for this particular post
either.


DeathNote #113 on ToonFighter #106 - DN is right. It seems like ToonFighter isn't really reading the game and is just
looking for a wagon to hop on. Well, why didn't you say so instead of pretending like you are trying?

Other -
- generally like Amrun
- Bamboo #89 - refuse to make a read on someone on stupid posts like this. People should stop doing them. They aren't
funny.
- Look, my vote shouldn't be on mozamis. That was a random vote. My vote needs a better place. The fact is, I could see Yos2/Toon Fighter scum based on above. (I don't like the DN wagon, if you couldn't tell. Two of my suspects, Llama and Toon were the second and third votes on that wagon to get it going) and Amrun (who is my only town read atm) has his vote on TF. I have largely agreed with pretty much everything he has said in this game and I agree with this as well.

Vote: Toon Fighter

[vezokpiraka]

My win condition says I win if all the threats to the town are dead.

In order to survive I have to kill all the scums so they can't kill me.
If I survive till the end the odds of town winning are bigger.

Call my surviving a second goal but nearly any role I would have I have to survive.

[vezokpiraka]

Hi guys.

A few posts caught my attention.

LlamaFluff #78 - His response to DeathNote irritates me. Specifically, the quote "So you want a policy lynch of
vezok, but you want to draw it out?". First of all, that's REALLY obvious - he wants to lynch someone (for whatever
reason) but wants the town to have the chance to discuss for future days. Regardless of DeathNote's alignment, that
logic makes perfect sense. LlamaFluff's response, to that, (and his post #78 in general) seems like an attempt to
ask leading questions to accuse people of scum. This is not inherently scummy, if your leading questions make sense,
but for a player as experienced as Llama to target DeathNote so explicitly with that statement (one that makes no
sense from a mafia theory perspective) just screams of a good player trying to exert his influence to get what he
wants, and in this case, Llama is scum and is frivously pushing for any lynch he can find. (I make no statement on
DN's alignment, but

FOS: LlamaFluff

) .. that was originally a vote, but then I read Llama #97 and so I feel
a bit better about this.

If you are going to lynch a player because of only one thing everyone will come and say: " Vezok is vanilla. Let's lynch him. Vote him." You won't get any wagon analysis or stuff like that. Basically you wasted a day , but not. DN wants to drag the day. What good can it come for dragging the day? Nobody will come with other reasons, townies will get bored and stuff like that.

Also everyone knows that short days favor scum and not town. If he comes here and says let's make a loooooonnnngg day people will think that is the town mentality and won't try to lynch him.

Get my point?

[Porochaz]

Zindy, I suggest you read through the game I linked, where you will find me and Deidre had roughly this same argument and we both just got more frustrated and annoyed until he quit. He simply doesn't understand how to play the game and I wouldn't try and waste your breath otherwise.

Vezok, do you feel towns chances have winning have improved since your vt claim?

[Amrun]

Vezok's VT claim was dumb, but I believe it and am unwilling to vote for him today. If he's fooled me, gj for him.

[Amrun]

I also dislike the DN wagon. My top suspect is pushing him and I've mislynched DN before. It's not as high a dislike as my dislike for the vezok wagon, though.

[Porochaz]

My win condition says I win if all the threats to the town are dead.

In order to survive I have to kill all the scums so they can't kill me.
If I survive till the end the odds of town winning are bigger.

Call my surviving a second goal but nearly any role I would have I have to survive.

Im going back on what I just said to Zindy because this is stupid.

VEZOK PLEASE READ!!!

This is an imaginary set up.

There are 20 players. 4 scum and 4 power roles.

You claim VT post no 1.

There are now 19 unclaimed players. 4 scum, 4 power roles and 1 vanilla town.

Before it was 4/20 so with a vanilla town lynch they have a 4/15 chance of hitting a power role (- the 4 scum and one lynchee) thats a 26.6% of hitting a power role

Now it is a 4/19, another vt lynch they have a 4/14 chance of hitting a power role, that's 28.6%

and the percentages between the two keep getting greater as the game goes on. Its the same situation if a power role or scum is lynched (though not the same percentage)

Put it this way lets say in end game, its night. There is what is presumed to be a protective role left. There is you and there is one scum left. Scum know exactly who to kill to win. They know now to avoid you. As a vanilla town you want to be protective of your power roles. By claiming you are doing the exact opposite and actually damaging the towns chances of winning. Ok so you might be alive till endgame but you've lost.

One of the most important lessons that any player has to learn is that this is in a weird way a team game. Even if that means you have to die to win the game overall.

[Primate]

Do we have any data on his scum game? I'm personally unimpressed by this kind of meta unless it's made explicit by the player. For example, I know someone who has a No-Lie Policy and he's kept it throughout years and years of Mafia play up to the point where everybody believes it. But he is invested in his meta. I do not see any investment from Vez. That means that he has more than enough incentive to betray the meta at a later point.

Agar posted a couple of examples earlier. I don't know if he's ever made it explicit outside of this game just now.

As for your read on me disagreeing with you, I actually don't really have a read either way on Suyre. I just thought that this

I'm fine with taking as much time as we want on the actual lynch, however scum and town alike will be likely to lynch him, in either case. Bussing someone who claims VT, especially one that has meta from others as a bad player/policy lynch regardless of the claim, leads little information on the bandwagon itself.

I think unfortunately with his claim, we've lost a chance at a lot of information we could have acquired on D1, and we're going to end it with much less for the PRs to go on in the night.

was an accurate summary of why it's a shame Vezok claimed.

Vezoks survivalist attitude depresses me. I can see why he gets policy lynched if he doesn't make an effort to play the same game the rest of us are playing. Getting nightkilled is a good sign because it means the scum think you are a threat. If you get to the endgame, generally it means the scum think you are too stupid to figure out who they are.

[Porochaz]

Hi guys.

A few posts caught my attention.

LlamaFluff #78 - His response to DeathNote irritates me. Specifically, the quote "So you want a policy lynch of
vezok, but you want to draw it out?". First of all, that's REALLY obvious - he wants to lynch someone (for whatever
reason) but wants the town to have the chance to discuss for future days. Regardless of DeathNote's alignment, that
logic makes perfect sense. LlamaFluff's response, to that, (and his post #78 in general) seems like an attempt to
ask leading questions to accuse people of scum. This is not inherently scummy, if your leading questions make sense,
but for a player as experienced as Llama to target DeathNote so explicitly with that statement (one that makes no
sense from a mafia theory perspective) just screams of a good player trying to exert his influence to get what he
wants, and in this case, Llama is scum and is frivously pushing for any lynch he can find. (I make no statement on
DN's alignment, but

FOS: LlamaFluff

) .. that was originally a vote, but then I read Llama #97 and so I feel
a bit better about this.

If you are going to lynch a player because of only one thing everyone will come and say: " Vezok is vanilla. Let's lynch him. Vote him." You won't get any wagon analysis or stuff like that. Basically you wasted a day , but not. DN wants to drag the day. What good can it come for dragging the day? Nobody will come with other reasons, townies will get bored and stuff like that.

Also everyone knows that short days favor scum and not town. If he comes here and says let's make a loooooonnnngg day people will think that is the town mentality and won't try to lynch him.

Get my point?

Actually, can I put a stop to this "If you lynch vezok, you get no wagon analysis" bullcrap. Because 1. you do. and 2. Wagon analysis isn't everything and actually we have already gotten quite a lot of information about players today.

In fact this post is really scummy, and has actually swung you to the other side of my scumometer. We can still and have done got useful information today even if we lynch you. People make stupid mistakes all the time and peoples reactions to this wagon or reactions to reactions. Its not just you we are analysing here and I have at least a vague view on pretty much all the players who have posted beyond confirmation.

Also apart from your last paragraph being A. From that useless book "The Big Ol' Book of Scum" B. being WIFOMilicious .it's again something that just came out a cows arse. I have no reason to believe the length of days affects anything, especially day 1 and I would invite you to prove me wrong.

[mozamis]

@Mod -Mr BuddyLee isn't voting for me, I'm voting for him

[Surye]

The key here is there is no night 0, without that dimension, day 1 sucks information wise, especially with a VT claim. I know, I've said this, but I wanted to emphasis the n0 point.

Additionally, we can attempt another wagon, and use that for analysis, however tomorrow we'll have the vez problem, or the next night, or the next, each time, the PR roles being more at risk, and providing less over all information to the town. If you don't believe me, look at Poro's analysis and extrapolate the numbers. He has the least negative effect to the town as a day 1 lynch in this current setup and situation. I strongly believe in that.

[Albert B. Rampage]

My win condition says I win if all the threats to the town are dead.

That's not what mine says.

Vote: Vezok

[Porochaz]

MBL is in this game? Oh awesome, I enjoyed playing with him last time. Although I played pretty damn terribly.

Also

note to everyone, I have exams on the 11th and the 20th so I will be doing my best to avoid mafiascum from the 8th to the 11th and the 16th to the 20th (Its a bigger, more important exam)

[Amrun]

My win condition says I win if all the threats to the town are dead.

That's not what mine says.

Vote: Vezok

Wait, how did I miss that post of vezok's?

lolllllllllllllll.

VOTE: vezok

How quickly I eat my words. Lynch vezok gogogo.

[Surye]

My win condition says I win if all the threats to the town are dead.

That's not what mine says.

Vote: Vezok

Man is he a bad player... it's not even really close.

[Porochaz]

My win condition says I win if all the threats to the town are dead.

That's not what mine says.

Vote: Vezok

Man is he a bad player... it's not even really close.

Give Frank a chance...

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian's posts happened in this order. It took multiple posts of his own, and another post of another player's kind of agreeing (Primate), before he stated it wasn't serious. That's plenty of time to go fishing around for people to follow along. For this, I find him the most suspicious player right now.

I only said the words "quicklynch" once, and that was in an obvious joke where I asked if we could quicklynch him before day 1 starts (which, of course, is impossible, sicne you can't vote during pre-game.) I notice you didn't even quote that post, so I guess you already knew I wasn't serious about that? So why are you trying to attack me?

I am completely serious about Vezo being a better then random lynch, of course.

[Albert B. Rampage]

First page of the game:

You are a normal human, and you're not really sure what you're doing here. All you know is that people are dying, and you don't intend to be one of them. You win when all anti-human factions have been eliminated.

[Yosarian2]

Vezok is town, and it's all but assured. Vezok is not intelligent enough to manipulate his own self meta.

Manipulating your playstyle in a larger sense througout the coruse of a game for delibrate meta reasons is hard.

Noticing "Hey, I claimed vanilla this one time, and people believed me; I wonder if it would work if I do that as scum, instead of making a stupid overcomplicated claim that will fail instantly like last time I was scum?" is easy. How hard is it to claim vanilla?

I highly doubt that anyone who has a pulse and is capable of turning on his computer is then too stupid to be able to say "I'm vanilla" when they're actually scum.

There's no reason, as town, to lynch a town player to "narrow down the PR list." It's just helping scum if anything, narrowing down their choices, thus increasing their likelihood of hitting a power role.

You have that backwards. Vezo claiming VT already narrowed down the power role list, unless we lynch him.

-Yosarian: I think the Vez lynch is a bad lynch. I dislike the way he went from really wanting to lynch Vez to seemingly state that it wasn't going to happen.

I said a Vez quicklynch is very unlikely to happen. I mean, come on; we need 13 votes to lynch someone in this game, and this is mafiascum; you couldn't get 13 people here to agree the sky is blue without a month of debate first.

I never said that Vez isn't likely to get lynched. He certainly is likely to get lynched.

Tell me the scum motivation for claiming Vanilla Townie, self-aware of meta or not, and locking yourself into that kind of claim?

Hmm? All it takes for the scum team to win is for one single scum to live the whole game and never get lynched. If people (like you, apparently) believe that "Vez who claims VT at the start of day 1 is never scum", then all Vez has to do as scum to win the entire game for his team is claim VT. You don't get a better scum motive then that.

On the other hand, there is no town motive for claiming VT. None. Zilch.

[quote="HezLucky]

I don't at all get what you're trying to say. If you think he was trying to repeat what I said, then why was it "scummy" or "contradictory"? What "mistake" do you think he made, that may more may not have been a "slip", but is "scummy"? What do you want him to clarify?

This post really feels like Toon Fighter is trying to have it both ways about the death note case, trying to attack Death Note and "sound reasonable" at the same time, and I dislike it.

Lots of questions to suggest that the person is scummy, and a vague statement that tries to sway people to his side while being too passive to really make it seem to anyone like he cares about this wagon. Yos2/Toon Fighter buddies?[/quote]

Wait. You agree with my attack on Toonfighter, but you think I'm scummy for making it, because I "asked questions"?

What's wrong with asking questions? How else am I supposed to find the scum if I'm not supposed to question people I find suspicious?

Anyway, there WAS no wagon at the time. I was the FIRST person to attack ToonFighter, and I wasn't at all "passive" or "vague" about it. This seems like a bizzare line of reasoning; "Person A attacked person B and asked person B questions, so they must be scum together!"

Anyway, Toon's answer to my questions was really disappointing.

He said we should lynch vez to narrow down the PR list. Well, that IS scummy. But, if we lynched someone OTHER than Vez, we would narrow down the PR list even more than with lynching Vez (assuming he is telling the truth). Therefore, something is wrong with his argument, and it contradicts itself. What he may have meant is to lynch vezok narrow down the scum list or something, but the way it is phrased, it looks scummy to me.

Lynching Vez AVOIDS having the scum narrow down the PR list, obviously. The scum already know he's not a power role. If we bandwagon someone else to a claim, and then get perhaps 2 or 3 more claims today and lynch one of them, then the odds of a power role living long enough to be useful goes way down. The more claims the town gets day 1, the worse for the town.

What DN was saying seems really clear to me; it was just the same thing I was saying, and you seemed to realize that. I don't get how you went from "he was trying to repeat what Yos said" to then completely not understanding what he was saying.

[Toon Fighter]

My win condition says I win if all the threats to the town are dead.

In order to survive I have to kill all the scums so they can't kill me.
If I survive till the end the odds of town winning are bigger.

Call my surviving a second goal but nearly any role I would have I have to survive.

Claiming that you want to survive as a personal goal is anti-town in my eyes, IF you are a town player, you should contribute to town winning, not to your survival. Also, the winning condition you say you have is worded differently than mine, care to elaborate on that?

FoS: vezok

. You are losing the town points I gave you earlier, and I am starting to think we should policy lynch you as an anti-town player

As for DN's reasoning, I am still not satisfied by it, but I don't have much time now, so I will elaborate on that tomorrow

[AGar]

There's no reason, as town, to lynch a town player to "narrow down the PR list." It's just helping scum if anything, narrowing down their choices, thus increasing their likelihood of hitting a power role.

You have that backwards. Vezo claiming VT already narrowed down the power role list, unless we lynch him.

No, DeathNote specifically said "Lynching Vezok narrows down the PR list." This admits that he feels Vezok to be town and likely a VT - ergo, he believes the claim. Yes, Vezok claiming VT narrows down the list of people who could potentially have PRs. But lynching him is effective in exactly what, now? Why should we, in any regard, be trying to narrow down the list of potential PRs? The only groups that benefit from further narrowing down the list of PRs are anti-town factions.

Tell me the scum motivation for claiming Vanilla Townie, self-aware of meta or not, and locking yourself into that kind of claim?

Hmm? All it takes for the scum team to win is for one single scum to live the whole game and never get lynched. If people (like you, apparently) believe that "Vez who claims VT at the start of day 1 is never scum", then all Vez has to do as scum to win the entire game for his team is claim VT. You don't get a better scum motive then that.

On the other hand, there is no town motive for claiming VT. None. Zilch.

If you think I'm going to sit here and just run around ignoring Vezok's behavior until endgame, I have some offensive words to describe your intelligence. However, on D1 there are people playing a way scummier game here than Vezok's god damned claim, and everyone is simply instead piling on to Vezok's wagons. There are better ways to handle him than just running up a lynch on him D1. You're smart enough to know that.

I didn't ask for town motive - I'm well aware Vezok is a high-profile VI on this site. I'm aware he doesn't friggin' think half of the time when he does something. If you want to lynch him for not thinking about town motivations on his actions, stop dressing it up and man up and call it a policy lynch, because you'll have to do it every game he's in. If it's not a policy lynch, come to the table with something more than "He claimed VT."

I'm still waiting to hear why lynching claimed VTs improves the towns odds.

[Internet Stranger]

I dont think that we absolutely must get rid of Vezo now, although he continues to find ways to dig himself in that much deeper. If we are to assume that Vezok is a townie, there should be at least 1 anti-human scum voting for him right now. (Including the newest entries, Albert and Amrun).

In my opinion it should come down to either Vezo or someone voting for him right now. Im voting Surye.

Surye

If no one else agrees on Surye, im willing to go with Kison instead.

[Internet Stranger]

Lets try that again:

Vote: Surye

[AGar]

IS - why not DeathNote?