Open 302: JUNGLE REPUB nope game over! Party time!

[Umbrage]

Caboose and Twistedspoon have been prodded.

[Twistedspoon]

got a prod

will catch up

[Twistedspoon]

wow, this is a hard game to read backwards

IIoA is strongest in a game with a single scum faction, so I see it than little more than a null-tell so far

my unreliable gut is giving me mixed signals today

however, I'm willing to wager that magna is probably town due to meta

[Regfan]

zMuffinMan, my opinion on Empking is leaning town, I've spectated a few of his games and he is exceedingly more outgoing as town, with that said I also believe MoI is town thus my frustration at Empkings inability to realize the case he has against MoI is incredibly weak.

Not feeling as bad about Twisted as I was earlier as well, his slight-town read on MoI rather than an attempt to throw dirt elsewhere reads as a town-tell. Neil dropped of activity wise the first second that pressure was released.

Unvote TwistedSpoon
Vote: Neil113

[Umbrage]

Empking (5) - MagnaofIllusion, neil1113, DeityKabuto, cjdrum, HezLucky
DeityKabuto (3) - Sloth, Caboose, Empking
Twistedspoon (2) - zMuffinMan, Wickedestjr
HezLucky (1) - Twistedspoon
neil1113 (1) - Regfan

Caboose has told me he's been V/LA, and will be V/LA until tomorrow. Remember, if you think you'll be away for more than two days, please say so in thread or send me a PM.

[Twistedspoon]

also, I'm not buying the Empking scum business

to side with my gut I'd be voting kabuto or neil; both of who's flip I would be extremely interested in

VOTE: kabuto

I guess I'll have to justify this soon. Gut probably doesn't suffice alone, 11 pages in. You deserve more from me, I'll admit

[Sloth]

however, I'm willing to wager that magna is probably town due to meta

What does this mean?

[DeityKabuto]

also, I'm not buying the Empking scum business

to side with my gut I'd be voting kabuto or neil; both of who's flip I would be extremely interested in

VOTE: kabuto

I guess I'll have to justify this soon. Gut probably doesn't suffice alone, 11 pages in. You deserve more from me, I'll admit

You haven't really been much active or a help to the towns at all as of recently, but may I ask why you decided to place your vote on me all of a sudden? How much of the game thread have you "actually" read so far? What is the logic behind your post? Who am I not to say that you appear scummy? It is normal for people to say that the inactives/lurkers are more scummy that noone at all. Answer those please, and I'll see if I get a townie vibe from you or not.

[neil1113]

Not feeling as bad about Twisted as I was earlier as well, his slight-town read on MoI rather than an attempt to throw dirt elsewhere reads as a town-tell. Neil dropped of activity wise the

first second that pressure was released.

Lol. What pressure?

to side with my gut I'd be voting kabuto or neil; both of who's flip I would be extremely interested in

Why is that?

[neil1113]

EBWOP:

to side with my gut I'd be voting kabuto or neil; both of who's flip I would be extremely interested in

Why is that?

[zMuffinMan]

@Empking,

Have you dropped your case on neil or do you just think DK is scummier at the moment?

@Hez,

I just want to verify something... You think Empking is scummy purely because you disagreed with him on something? Or am I misreading your reason for voting him?

[Empking]

@Empking,

Have you dropped your case on neil or do you just think DK is scummier at the moment?

Neither. My previous play wasn't being very productive so I decided to put my vote on DK (Who has always been my top pick for Mafia.)

[neil1113]

@Empking,

Have you

dropped your case on neil

or do you just think DK is scummier at the moment?

What case?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok … I’m not making a Empking official case. At least right now. After reviewing my thoughts and the thread I think his play speaks for itself.

DK is 100% VI. A review of his posting leaves no doubt about this. Whether he is incompetent Sheep or Evil Sheep or Werewolf remains to be seen. I will not object to a lynch of him if we can’t find another scummy target but feel it is more policy than anything else.

I want Empking hung. I’m fairly confident he’s very likely Evil Sheep based on the resistance I’m seeing on multiple fronts to moving him beyond L-2. That said I’m also considering the following three players –

Neil

– Having read a sufficent amount of his posts after the game started I’m not believing his “Ooops, didn’t know about the set-up” pre-game persona. He’s clearly capable of complex discourse and responses. That clearly doesn’t jibe with what was presented pre-game.

Twisted

– playing inconsistent with his Town play from my direct experience.

Wicked

– First vote was Empking wanting to ‘bandwagon’. He immediately jumps off the wagon the second Empking starts posting his special brand of insanity and votes Twisted for what I find suspect reasons. He then continues to spar with Empking but makes no move towards pressuring him via vote. My guts says Empking partner. Has experience with the Set-up and distancing from Partners (Actor Theme Mafia).

@Caboose, CJDrum, Hez, and Sloth

– You need to post at least two possible scum suspects beyond who has your vote in your next post please!

--

You misquote people to shorten your post? Surely it'd be shorter to not do a quote to begin with?

Once again – the only thing I removed WAS MY OWN WORDS. Absolutely nothing was removed that you said. I can’t misquote you if I only removed words YOU DIDN’T SAY.

--

er...

Where did I say I think Empking is scummy? I think his case is bad because it's based on pedantry and misinterpretation. I think he's losing an argument against stronger players. I don't think that necessarily makes him scum.

So do you find him scummy or do you have a Town read on him? I’d like some clarity on this issue.

--

to side with my gut I'd be voting kabuto or neil; both of who's flip I would be extremely interested in

VOTE: kabuto

I guess I'll have to justify this soon. Gut probably doesn't suffice alone, 11 pages in. You deserve more from me, I'll admit

Soon means now. Your input this game is unacceptable.

[neil1113]

Neil

– Having read a sufficent amount of his posts after the game started I’m not believing his “Ooops, didn’t know about the set-up” pre-game persona. He’s clearly capable of complex discourse and responses. That clearly doesn’t jibe with what was presented pre-game.

I don't know what to say? It's your opinion.. I really didn't know. I wasn't playing ignorant.

[Empking]

"Once again – the only thing I removed WAS MY OWN WORDS. Absolutely nothing was removed that you said. I can’t misquote you if I only removed words YOU DIDN’T SAY."

Would you agree that I said everything in this post?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't know what to say? It's your opinion.. I really didn't know. I wasn't playing ignorant.

I'm really not asking you to say anything. You are correct - its a gut feeling I have in seeing that disconnect. You can't really defend against it. I'm just giving me reads and thoughts out for review.

--

Would you agree that I said everything in this post?

Stop asking questions that have already been answered. Dear god if you aren't scum you are really bad at this game.

I gave my thoughts when

I ORIGINALLY RESPONDED

. You've been on some Sherp-Led-Trip-Up-The-Mountain path focusing on me removing my own words as opposed to actually looking at what was said. Go read my response. And then hang.

[Empking]

Stop asking questions that have already been answered.

Am I right in thinking that you're refusing to answer that because you're scum?

(Last post for today.)

[Wickedestjr]

MoI seems more likely to be town after that exchange between him and Empking, but there's one thing I'm curious about:

I'm done as I think it is pretty clear that you are

scum who overreacted to early pressure and have continued to dig your hole deeper and deeper

. I've let you suck me in again.

VIs drive me nuts

.

??? It seems odd that you would say he is pretty clearly scum, but at the same time a VI. What makes you think that Empking is a VI in this game?

Would you mind explaining how that first example was not him blatantly implying something in order to be able to use his pet phrase "I didn't say that"?

This is how I interprated it:

Empking: What allignment is so afraid of 1 (one) vote that they wagon the largest wagon and try and discredit the person voting them?

Neil1113: The largest wagon? 2 votes? =

You consider two votes to be a large bandwagon?

My interpratation: I don't think he was questioning your statement that you were the largest bandwagon, but questioning why you think he would feel the need to join the largest bandwagon when it was only two votes in this case.

You mean all that was

implied

. Which ultimatyely was my point in the start.

No, it wasn't. Your point was that he implied a thought without actually saying it and then later denied that he had had that thought. I believe that he was telling the truth when he denied implying that thought. I also think this is because we interprated his post differently. But, even if he had, this isn't scummy anyway. What motivation does he even have to say your bandwagon wasn't the largest and then say he never said that, when it would be so easy to show that he is lying? Why would he say that your bandwagon wasn't the largest in the first place, when it was very easy to prove that it was in fact the largest?

He's been arguing like nothing else and it's like he wants to be killed. Town doesn't want to be killed. Scum don't want to be killed, but can sacrifice one of their two (or... three?)

to get what they want

.

What does he want to get in this case?

More suspicious posting from zMuffinMan in post 184:

MoI is pretty clearly winning this argument against Empking. I'm really not convinced that MoI is right, but I am convinced that MoI is a lot better at arguing.

Filler, fluff, no stance, IIoA, and no useful point is actually made.

It continues with:

Granted, the point about it being the "third" game he looked at is irrelevant and I don't know why MoI keeps pushing it, you ignored the main point... The game you looked at was one in which scum had vested interest in keeping their partner alive because they died with their partner... It's a different situation. You can't just say it's the same because it's not ideal for a werewolf to die on D1... Or, well, you can, but it's a pretty poor argument.

This basically rephrases what has already been said and you don't actually contribute your read of Empking nor do you contribute anything new... in fact, at the time of this post we are 8 pages into the game and I still have no idea what you think of Empking.

Does it bother anybody that zMuffinMan still hasn't given his opinion of Empking or neil?

Because it doesn't look like he has.

I found it ironic that TS was criticising neil for doing it while it appears he was doing it himself. I regarded it as a null tell, but TS himself didn't, which is why I found it interesting, but that in and of itself is not why I'm voting for TS. I dislike his early play, trying to put pressure on someone for a poor reason, and I dislike that since then he has just been sitting back and not posting anything relevant.

Oops, I misread the original comment. Sorry.

I'm still catching up...

[Regfan]

Lol. What pressure?

Earlier today when Empking was pushing towards your lynch you were incredibly active and willing to state your thoughts, however the day he stopped posting so did you. It's as if you felt of the hook.

Ok … I’m not making a Empking official case. At least right now. After reviewing my thoughts and the thread I think his play speaks for itself.

If you don't mind, can you elaborate. I'm reading his play as over overzealous and paranoid town rather than anything else.

We need to get more people talking.

Caboose - What's your opinion on Empkings play thus far?
Sloth - Would you consider DK to be noobtown or noobscum at the moment and why?
CJDrum - If you had to name two people you thought were town, who would they be and why?
Hez - What do you make of the fact that Empking is on L-2?

[Umbrage]

Prodding cjdrum.

[Wickedestjr]

- I am familiar with Empking's style. I will not oppose pressure on Empking in future games because this
is far more activity than I am used to seeing out of him. So good work, everyone. (Although I am in the
"Empking is not a good day one policy lynch" meta,

though I will happily subscribe to the "Empking is a
good day one policy pressure" meta

)

...

Unvote, Vote: Empking

I'm not sure I understood this correctly. Correct me if I'm wrong. Are you saying that this is a pressure vote and you don't want to lynch Empking today?

Is this a joke? What do you call bolding and enlarging the crucial word if not clarifying the question? You have to remember, I didn't just decide that neil was dodging the question I gave him the benefit of the doubt before it was clear that there was no other explaination than neil being scum.

Any why has neil yet to answer the question? Is it still unclear?

1: Like I said, I can see how bolding and enlarging the word 'say' could have been unclear. Wouldn't it have been easy to just ask 'I don't want to know what you meant when you said that, but why you said it in the first place.' That would've ended the confusion and made it more likely that you would have received an answer.

2: I don't know why neil hasn't answered your question. It shouldn't be unclear if he has read the whole thread, but I get the impression he is simply ignoring you due to annoyance.

[HezLucky]

did a reread (technically a first read of pages 3 to roughly ~7)

posts I was uncomfortable with -

#8 MagnaofIllusion - almost as if he's telling the Seer what to do so that he can adjust his scum strategy
appropriately.
#55 Neil - I like Neil's reasoning for his vote on Empking. I mentioned this already, but I'm happy to see an Empking
pressure wagon on Day One to get him to talk.
The Magna #66/Empking #67 exchange is the top reason I think Empking is scum. I mentioned this before.
#75 Twistedspoon - way to analyze dude.
After #77, he could be lazy due to the large postcount. Like me. So I won't hold this against him.
#82 Neil/ #83 Empking - Neil brings up a good point that Empking is OMGUSing heavily. I don't think scum would do this,
so -1 to Empking's count. (NB: you'll see why this really doesn't matter later on, heh)

- This Empking/Neil debate is largely noise. Empking, especially, is posting in a highly anti-town manner dominating
the discussion and preventing the town from getting any real information or input from the remaining players
(hell i'm only making this post because multiple people prodded me)

- at this point I am so frustrated at Empking I would be happy to policy lynch him regardless of alignment.
- can we vig him? his being alive is detrimental to the town.

#96 Magna / #97 Empking - Magna gets the better of Empking here. I don't like Empking's response (first paragraph)
in post #97. He's explaining himself in a way that I would if I were scum, by trying to use careful words and carefully
posting in a calm tone.

#99 DeityKabuto is STILL the stupidest thing I've read in this thread. "Other people are voting him. He probably did
something bad. I'm going to vote him too." What. the. fuck?

...zomg I'm on page 5 this game will never end.

#101 Neil - if Neil wasn't new I would be on his ass for giving Deity #99 a free pass like this.

#104 Empking - Empking, what do you think of the fact that constantly asking questions is incredibly annoying,
unlike to get you anywhere, and is one of those "if I say some things often enough people will begin to believe them"
tactics? Neil #105 is right. Leading questions galore. +1

#106 Empking - last part is either sarcastic wit, or Empking is completely clueless as to why he has that many votes
on him.

Neil #108 is absolutely right. Empking has constantly been asking leading questions and DENYING IT.

Neil #112 -- it is at this point where I am going to stop reading the Neil/Empking exchange. I am siding with Neil.
Empking deserves to be lynched, for a) poor poor poor responses to pressure (b) constantly asking leading questions
(c) dominating the discussion allowing others to lurk (d) not being of any use to the town in scumhunting. I mean,
all he does is attack the people who attack him. -_-

Good. Let's see who else I find scummy.

DeityKabuto #118 - okay this is retarded. Deity is my new #2. "You are trying too hard to defend yourself." Are you
SERIOUS? That's a reason for LYNCHING someone? More like, that's an excuse for sticking your vote on the wagon leader.

DeityKabuto #120 is funny too. Doesn't even want to bother to find a reason where Empking was defending himself, even
though it was the ENTIRE FUCKING THREAD. Seriously, why don't we have a vig? It's annoying.

Regfan #125 - votes Twisted on Twisted #32, which I didn't care for, but at least he has a reason.

Muffin #131 - I didn't like his vote on Twisted here. Muffin is in the same group that I am. "people who are lurking
because there is way too much fuckin activity in this game". I forgave Twisted for his half-assed post, but Muffin
never even considered the possibility they were in the same boat, instead preferring to try to get a wagon going with
the second vote.

Caboose #132 - I like Caboose. I agree with DK. Good post.

Drum #133 - raises a good point. God dammit. I really want to lynch Empking.

DK #139 seems genuine.

Wicked #141 - I don't like the fact that he's voting for Twistedspoon and calling Muffinman's vote of him opportunistic.
If I were in his shoes, I would have made the exact same post but voted MuffinMan for it. Points to MuffinMan. Possible
pairing of Wicked/MuffinMan here.

Neil #145 - I trust him on the Twisted meta. I don't see a problem with Twisted yet, but I will keep my eye on him.

Magna #146 / Wicked #147 - Given my slight suspicion of Sloth (not mentioned here) and stronger suspicion of MuffinMan,
if I were in Magna's shoes i would definitely have asked them something as well. Maybe Magna is not paying attention
to one of his buddies on purpose?

HOLY **** I'M ONLY ON PAGE SEVEN NOW? ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Empking #162 / Magna #163 - Magna is making Empking look worse by outdebating him. I believe them both to be scum now
but in different groups. Playing to your meta IS punished if you are scum.

Magna #169 - the second point. "Why is it his THIRD stop through a random game?" Give me a fucking break. That's not
evidence. These last few pages have made you look awful.

Come to think of it I don't think all of Magna/Neil/Empking can be scum after that first page exchange. I am going to
place Neil squarely in the town category now.

Muffin #184 - "MOI is winning the battle against Empking because he's a better debater" aka. "my scum buddy MOI is
doing a great job, but I don't want to seem too opportunistic so I will put some suspicion on him to make it seem like
I'm not giddy and considering all sides of the argument.

Magna #226 is right abuot Empking. As I've shown below, they are in opposite scum groups.

Twsited #253/#255 - scratch that. Empking's last buddy is Twisted. He claims MoI is town due to meta (his meta sucks)
... almost like a reverse-chainsaw. "I don't like Empking's case, but I don't want to chainsaw MoI" aka. Empking is
my buddy but I need to find someone eles to vote for.

Wicked #271 - no this is a meta.

I'm happy with my Empking vote. Aside from one thing, he's on the bad side of my scumdar. He's also largely anti-town
in his posting, which makes him a good policy lynch here regardless of alignment. (In other words, I believe he's scum - but you should vote for him regardless of what you believe)


Suspect List:
#1 - Empking (74/100) - this is an example where someone actually needs to be policy lynched, because their domination
of the discussion will prevent us from obtaining reads on ANYONE for the rest of the game. If I were vig, I would shoot
him no questions asked. Unfortunately, this is an open game. Oh wellz. [[focus on the scum -- poor responses, anti-town behaviour, lack of scumhunting or interest in finding scum, leading questions, arguing by repetition, etc. -- look, he's scum, but even if you don't think tihs, lynch him now.]]
#2 - DeityKabuto (74/100) - see above as to why I would like to lynch Empking today. Esp given I am afraid that DK
might be the biggest noob ever.
#3 - Magna (59/100)
#4 - Muffin (57/100) - upgraded a bit because of Wicked #141
#5 - TwistedSpoon (54/100)
---------------- scum cutoff
#6 - Wicked (52/100) - although he has made some good points.
#7 - all others - 50/100 --- aka. neutral read
#8 - Neil - 46/100
#9 - Caboose - 45/100

Scumlist: Empking, DK, Magna, Muffin, probably Twisted. (Empking/Magna in different scumgroups)
I have so many links though that I am not sure anymore who is in what scum group. Oh well, these are your scum guys
lynch away.

DK is just as likely to be scum. I choose to lynch Empking though. Will be better for town in the long run.
(and no this does not contradict Hez post #198, because I do think Empking is scum)

[Empking]

Can s0omebody provide an example of where I've asked a leading question? People keep on saying that but that shut their mouths when asked to give an example.

(also, that Empking is dominating the discussion with his massive three sentances is absolutely ridiculous.)

(Also sorry for the post but this leading question business is a rdidiculous scum accusation.)

[cjdrum]

Bloody Empking with his bloody arguing that leaves me to get bloody prodded.

2 Scum suspects? I honestly don't know. Pretty much everyone has had a run-in with Empking, so I'd say (currently) the people who haven't, or haven't

very much

are probably scum-worthy.
2 Town choices? The people who have been targeted by Empking the most. They're only kind of high in Towniness, because one may be Mafia while the other is a Werewolf.

He's been arguing like nothing else and it's like he wants to be killed. Town doesn't want to be killed. Scum don't want to be killed, but can sacrifice one of their two (or... three?)

to get what they want

.

What does he want to get in this case?

To win? He wants to have his faction win. If he dies and the others in his faction are "cleared" from his death, he's pretty much won (kind of).