New York 131: Tricycle Mafia (Day 5)

[Thor665]

Hello to everyone I've played with before.

Vote: Maxous

Clearly an RVS that doesn't need to even have reasoning is an RVS everyone should sheep.

[Thor665]

1. Meh.
2. Not as good as I'd like.
3. As active as I am.

This is Yoshi, right? I seem to recall fielding these before - they seem about as helpful still.

[Thor665]

I'm pretty inebriated and hoped to come in to this htread as well and dispense brilliance. Instead I've got nothing to react to. So...to heck with all of you. Later.

[Thor665]

Mod - V/LA - May 19-22

[Thor665]

Sheep me then, and make a large bandwagon that will force people to react to it.

[Thor665]

I quite like my own vote better. It isn't much more than a random vote, but I feel like it has more substance to it than most of the votes so far.

[Thor665]

By your logic Wraith and silverbullet are equally scummy. Meh, whatever, we'll see whose wagon of choice gets biggest, because biggest is best (ah, I'm winning, I am best )
Everyone should be voting either Maxous or that Toon fellow - those are obvious wagons of win and are most assuredly on two scum right now.

[Thor665]

Or town rallying town, natch. Scum don't try to rally town because rallying town is a bad thing, y'know. So...maybe you should rally town or stay out of my way till I do it, yeah?

[Thor665]

I didn't say scum rallying town was a bad idea. In fact I believe the opposite.
WIFOM is silly, everything is WIFOM if you let it be.

I am certain on both wagons because I'm a double shot Daycop, duh.

[Thor665]

Not Voting (6) – jmurph3, saporovirus, DeityKabuto, MrZepher,

Thor665

, Uite

Hello to everyone I've played with before.

Vote: Maxous

Clearly an RVS that doesn't need to even have reasoning is an RVS everyone should sheep.

Dear Mod - please make me look less silly as I mock people for badly not using their votes. Thank you.

Should be fixed. Apologies!

[Thor665]

Still no wall from thor, this saddens me.

Do I ever wall early in a game?
How come you're avoiding the big wagons?

[Thor665]

VOTE: Pine
Trying to shove suspicion on Thor over nothing.

This looks like scumhunting.

I don't like Pine's interrogation of Thor -- his certitude seemed pretty obviously jokey to me.

This looks like buddying and parroting.

[Thor665]

I have no clue what just happened. I'll have to reread this entire thread all at once, I guess. And I prob won't post till Monday morning.

I have no idea what just happened either, I'm going to bandwagon like crazy now.

Unvote: Maxous
Vote: Toon Fighter

I'll also add Pine to the list of acceptable lynches (Toon Fighter and Maxous are the others, for those wanting to look towny when placing their votes, Amor is also acceptable, but is a lesser lean and people really need to play up their own case there), Uite better pick up his play or I'm casting him into the scumpile just as punishment for how terrible that last post was. SubZero can be town for a while, and jmurph...maybe...

@jmurph - "OMG, Pine is scum because look how he was against the Toon Fighter wagon but than suddenly jumped on it, OMGLOLWTF!?!"
Why is Pine more scummy than Toon Fighter for this interplay?

[Thor665]

Why are you telling people how to look townie?

Because you all look so scummy I'd love to get some more town reads and am willing to do anything to get them. What of it?

[Thor665]

@KoC - Uh...huh. You've been playing since 2008, I don't think I should need to explain what I'm doing to you. Vote me for "directing other scum" or pretend not to understand something else. Either way, stop wasting everyone's time.

[Thor665]

Then vote me sweet lips, I said what I said.

[Thor665]

Vote: Thor665

Anything you say darling.

Okay - so now kindly explain to me who I was coaching because they were doing so bad that the scumteam needed to have someone openly coach some players in the thread.

[Thor665]

C'mon, Subzero, me calling for more votes and posts is obviously because my scumteam is literally falling apart under the onslaught of scumhunting that has exploded across this thread thus far. Sweet mother of mercy, man, I have to get in there and save everyone!

That said, I find Amor more scummy of the pair and I can't imagine two scum would be pushing this angle. So possibly one of them, not both, I'm leaning Amor.

[Thor665]

YES!... ok maybe not but i'm impatient i suppose.
Isn't sub a "big wagon" with 2 now thanks to me?
I thought the biggest wagon was 3 with max from last vc.

You want this responded to? Okay.

1. You are impatient.
2. No, and you're still avoiding commenting on the big wagons.
3. Learn to read vote counts?

[Thor665]

Thor is basically promising the less active players a free pass if they vote how he wants them to. Just because someone agrees with you doesn't make them town, and it seems stupid to leave a huge chunk of players free from investigation. I'm not sure whether this is just bossy town play or active scum manipulation.

You're right, it does seem stupid. And, since he managed to find his way here and stick around for 2 years, I'm assuming Thor isn't stupid. If he isn't stupid, then he wouldn't give people free passes as town, which leaves me with the last option...

I read this and this is what I see.

Bleeple-bleeple, I'm not actually taking a stand but it doesn't make sense for Thor to promise town cred to those who vote his way, yet he seems to want to control people to vote who he thinks is scummy.

You're right, bleeple-bleeple. There is absolutely NO WAY that town could *possibly* want to bleeple-bleeple, control the vote! Only scum want to make sure their chosen target is lynched. Thor is not stupid, therefore Thor is scum - please ignore my own lack of sense in coming to this conclusion as Amor and i continue our love-fest of terrible logic!

You've been here longer than I have KoC, so I'll also presume you're not stupid so...what the fug am I missing here?

2. most recent Votecount at the time of asking (post 39)
Maxous (3) – Amor, Thor665, Nobody Special
SubzeroSith (1) – Surye
and 3 others at 1
so...
3. Learn to read vote counts.

The POST MOAR Votecount

With 17 players alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

nhammen (2) – Pine, Toon Fighter
Pine (1) - Wraith

(this actually became a 2 because Maxous moved right before you did)

SubzeroSith (1) – Surye (you made this a 2)
Maxous (3) – Amor, Thor665, Nobody Special[/color]

So you had 2 options to make a wagon a 3 and one to make it a 4 and you decided what was most needed was no opinion or force on those wagons and instead you'd needle at SubZero.
Why?
Also - learn to read vote counts

[Thor665]

Hm... If you suspect him then start a case on him.

Who do you currently suspect and why?

[Thor665]

I personally pray he's just reaction fishing, but if this is his level of play it's not anymore inherently scummy than other players I consider to play sub-optimally.

[Thor665]

If this is the Calcifer Mastin I will attempt my best to get you beaten about the head and shoulders with a dead carp if you keep trying to write any number of cases north of five.
Also, sheep me once you catch up. I'd promise to make you a town read if you do this, but apparently all I'm doing is coaching you because you're terrible scum and/or I'm absolutely insane and will hold you as a solid townread forevermore and I can't do that.

@Toon - You're being run up for failing at bandwagoning. I'm Charlie Sheen over here. That's the difference. Also, an FOS on a scum point you apparently disagree with? Yeah, way to look townie. (aw, crud, am I coaching again?)

[Thor665]

Thor -- I just don't think it's a good idea to intentionally ignore the half of the player base who are below the radar right now, or tell people how to escape your suspicion. But your response gives me town vibes, so I think this is just an argument about tactics.

Since you appear willing to accept 100% that when I claim I'll give wonderful town uber coverage to anyone who sheeps me. Allow me to say something else you can take as 100% true.
I am selling the Brooklyn Bridge and am doing so very cheaply - please PM me so I can get your relevant details and a down payment.
You'll be town if you do this.

[Thor665]

@jmurph - could you restate what you said and meant - clearly I'm not getting it.

[Thor665]

@jmurph - the post where you initially dinged Pine. You basically spend half of it attacking Toon, and than the other half attacking Pine for how he voted for Toon. What sort of scum relationship do you think you're onto here?

EBWOP - Hmph, well it's a wall...not much use there, but an attempt. Meh, DK can be town for a while, but anyone who sheeps him will be insta-mocked.

[Thor665]

Derf.

Mod - correction V/LA - actual dates are May 12-15

Noted.

@Amor - I actually agree with you about him insomuch as I find him scummy. The issue is I find him scummy for things you're also doing and that I find scummier than how he's doing them. Do you find Toon scummy for anything other than what you just quoted?

[Thor665]

We should probably all just policy lynch Uite for being a lurking lurker.

For everyone saying 'gosh and golly, it'd be sweet if I could get some better reads' well, if you lack reads how about you sheep onto a wagon (like Toon) because therein lies reactions.

Also, vote Toon or Amor.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Toon Fighter
Vote: Amor

I'm actually sheeping Mastin, but combining it with my reads. He's totally wrong about Subzero, and I am suspicious he's wrong about silver, as the scummiest thing I've seen silver do was this and that came after his analysis so...meh.

[Thor665]

@Mastin - nah, not until you show an actual ability to shift the votes. But, me having a scum read on him, and you having a scum read on him that's larger the more likely I am town makes him look pretty tasty in my opinion. Plus, as noted, kinda meh on your other reads.

[Thor665]

I was gone 4 days and didn't post during a 5th and we haven't had even one more Amor post? Seriously?

First off - the whole "LOL it's either Silver or Sub" discussion is about five different kinds of headbangingly stupid talk. I, personally, say town for both of them. So how about we kill those wagons and people do something fething useful like vote Amor who is looking sketchy as hell with posts attacking Player A while voting B and sort of sideline egging on a fight.

If we have a Vig (or Sk who wishes to be thought of as such) I will give sloppy kisses for a DK kill. Just saying.

[Thor665]

One more Amor *vote* even.

[Thor665]

I don't like the posts between him and silverbullet (who, obviously, just claimed VT at L-1) and think we should lynch one of them. As silverbullet is already close to lynch, I decided to vote Subzero, but will be willing to hammer silverbullet if the need comes.

Oh, and I'm still down for Toon Fighter mostly just for this gak.

[Thor665]

@Sub - what's your Amor read? I'm pinging townish on Silver right now and would rather wagon up Amor. the number of people drooling around going "must be one of Silver/Sub" just makes me squeamish for the whole pile, quite frankly.

[Thor665]

@Amor

here

Hey, Sub and Silver might be town and all, I think I'll hop onto DK, I'll also ding Mastin for setting up chain lynches but than also suggest he might be right. Go Mastin, go!

Bwuh? Yeah, I want you dead.

[Thor665]

I still stand by my call that SZ/Silver is town/town and find it amazing that so many of you are just sort of drooling and nodding that "it *has* to be one scum there"

Okay, here's a shocking question that I want answered;

WHY does there have to be one scum between Silver/SZ? Let's even go now with our absolute evidence that Silver is town - why does that have to make SZ scum?

Yeah...

More Amor votes, please. Toon Fighter is an acceptable alternate.

[Thor665]

Pine, Toon Fighter, Surye, DeityKabuto

Players who haven't yet justified why one of silver/SZ had to be scum.

Mastin

Player who claims an either/or and won't even back me on it. What is your case for SZ, really? I bet it's gak. Let's lynch Amor.

[Thor665]

@Mastin - I know! What the hell. Get on this thing with me!

@Pine - allow me to paraphrase the "logic" of your post.

Hey, look, both SZ and Silver are using bad logic.
Bad logic is scummy.
But no way scum would both use bad logic.
Obviously one is scum and the other is town.
Vote Silver.

Mastin - Hey-o, I'm a daycop - lol - Silver is town!

Yay! Vote SZ.

Yes...???

How about this as a potential logic - neither of them are scum and bad logic is not a scumtell, it's a tell that the person uses bad logic...? Quite frankly I actually didn't even feel either of them was using logic that was that bad, and I personally think that both are town and that scum are nuthugging onto this "lol, one is scum" schitck because, hey, easy lynch.

@nhammen - I'm willing to buy the DK as town, because I have seen his town play and I suspect it's often terribad. How about you call for a Vig and instead hop on the Amor wagon. We have fine wines and chocolate.

[Thor665]

Fine, if I'm chainsaw defending than vote me - because that's still scummier than what you're pegging them for. Ad hom is bad logic, that's why it's a logical fallacy. Discrediting instead of analysis is..well...it's another way to say ad hom, so...yeah.

[Thor665]

Plus, sweet mother, unless you think Mastin is pulling a gambit (which a lot of people seem to think for some reason...?) we just flat out proved that town could do the things you're calling scummy. So there's still no reason to believe the other half of the debate *has* to be scum.

Also, what's your read on Amor? I'd love to lynch him, how do you feel about that?

[Thor665]

@Pine - if it makes you feel better replace all points where I used "bad logic" and replace it with "ad hom and whatever heck else you think they both did" and the gist of what I said holds true. There's no logical reason to presume that one of them has to be scum anymore than there is to presume none of them has to be scum. That makes the entire SZ wagon pretty much piffle willis in the wind.

And "routinely"? Please quote where else I did this. (hint - I think you're allowing a scum read in [redacted] to half blind you here - work on that please.)

Also, please go look up what exactly chainsawing is. I attacked the logic of your case, I never called you scummy. Derpy-doo. I'm calling Amor scummy. And you think that wagon came out of nowhere? What do you think I've been doing all game? Please read up and get back to me.

Uite the lurker just weak endorsed the SZ wagon while washing his hands on it. Whoop-dee-doo, that's an awesome wagon, isn't it? I must be CrAzY to not be on it, amirite?

EBWOP - sloppy kisses for KoC. Though, newsflash, there are better things for cops to do than check Mastin.

[Thor665]

I've called you a lurker twice and noted that one of your posts were bad. It only feels like I've been doing it to you all game because you've not been around to do anything else for me to ever comment on you about. Also, seriously, it's *not* like me to abuse lurkers? Really? I don't think you know my playstyle at all.

What should I be doing that's "better" to deal with you? Asking you to replace out or something? I really don't get your issue. Aren't you voting DK for being functionally useless to the game?

Also - why don;t you attack my logic that I used to ding you over. You *did* come in, basically say you had no opinions, and walked off to sleep (well - eventually sleep) while we have a deadline enforced lynch looming in less than 24 hours. You *don't* think that looks like soft support of the SZ lynch while not actually getting your own hands dirty? I feel my accusation is very proper and justified. If you vote Amor right now you'll prove me wrong.

[Thor665]

@Mastin - I know! What the hell. Get on this thing with me!

[Thor665]

Aw dude, really, full mason claim? My favorite mason claim is to claim verifiable town PR, and not out my buddies for another night. Derpy-dingle-20/20-doo.

I'd actually still like the Amor lynch, he was soft selling along on stuff and sidelining. The worst I can say about Pine is he did flip a gasket when I came in and defended you and slapped his case around, because he got hyper defensive that I was attacking him. Still, I'm giving him a slight pass till he can show a quote of me 'misrepresenting' him or whatever it was he said I'd been doing this game. I personally think/hope he has his wires crossed with another ongoing and isn't being this terrible.

There's certainly at least 1 scum currently on you, I'm not sure if I fully buy 2. Mastinscum is a theory to hold off on for a few days - seriously.
I could buy Surye.
I still loathe Toon's play, but a few town reads have been calling him town so I'd rather not sell him down the river rightaway. I do consider him a solid alternate lynch at this stage, but would rather see where people scuttle to now that their pretty little either/or option has just been wuss slapped again.

[Thor665]

@SZ - so who do you think was the scum pointedly avoiding you? There was at least one of those as well? I dig on KoC for voting Amor, but this is coming from the guy who was all buddy hugging Amor and attacking me for being scummy and leading lynches, and suddenly here he is riding my wagon of choice on his previous scumhunting partner in awesome, and not a whisper of comment about how here's Mr. Scummy Director screaming about this wagon he's suddenly joining. The fug?

It wouldn't surprise me to have a scum on Toon so as to be on the counter *cough*Amor*cough*.

[Thor665]

I'm at a loss for words. BOTH Silver and SZS are Town? What nonsense is this? Obviously, unless Thor or Jmurph contradict the Mason claim, we're not lynching SZS.

Also, this completely explains the chainsaw defense of SZS given by Thor. I do not apologize for the accusation, as the chainsaw defense WAS employed, and in one of the few Town scenarios.

VOTE: Toon

My only remaining strong scumread, though I'm willing to hear a case on Amor (or read one that someone links me to). I admit that I have been tunnelling a bit and have ignored half the players in the thread.

PE: I think we've both got our wires crossed. I was thinking the same about you. Call it a draw for now and move on? If you can produce a full Amor case I'd be happy to read it.

1. Yes, both are town. Shocking and almost unbelievable considering how amazing the case on them was...
2. Please check your definition. Defending a town read (or a known confirmed) is not chainsaw unless you 'defend' them by simply attacking the attacker. I attacked the case. It was never a chainsaw defense.

Don't you also have a quote to provide me? Y'know, now that I'm confirmed town and you should be kow-towing a bit I'd at least love to see you provide the quote where I was misrepping you or whatever the heck it was you claimed I did. It will help my read of you. Please provide it.

Also, you said you would read up on Amor. How about you do that and give me your reads as promised?

And my wires weren't crossed - quote where I attacked you and than I'll admit my wires were crossed. Till than, not so much.

[Thor665]

@SZ - it's not a Smurf up, just you possibly could have handled a claim without a full mason team reveal. You could have gone with "I'm a verifiable town PR, if I'm alive tomorrow I'll verify" or even "I'm a mason, I have buddies that can verify but don't want to reveal them" though the latter probably would have at least plopped me into the obvious slot quicker than anything. I'm not even sure if it's truly optimal, I just like not telling scum jack because I know when I'm scum I hate not knowing stuff about the setup. Screw those guys, we don't want them to know anything they don't need to.

So you agree on Amor likely scum, but you're hanging onto Toon. I guess I can see that with being unsure of Mastintown. I can feel that a bit, but seriously. If Mastin is scum he just pretty much played the worst scum play ever because there is no way he's getting to lylo now. So let's not sweat that so much. His reads are a little shaky, but that's because he insists on Day 1 VCA, so they'll always be.

@Mastin - can you justify the Pine town read. His hyper pop to my my SZ defense felt like scum saying 'Get the frell away from this wonderfully planned mislynch' and his defensiveness and assuredness that I'd been attacking him reads as scum with guilty conscience. I'd love to be able to clear him as it would help narrow my own reads - so please spill on that town read. Besides, you need to start acting more uber town right now to try and help draw NKs, you are confirmed Daycop, right?

Does anyone else have a read on Zephyr? I've got him down as slight town at the moment but the timing of his 'lol, wasn't gonna vote SZ but will vote Amor and...holy cats, a Mason claim!?! Bwuh?" post just leaves a stingy taste in my mouth.

[Thor665]

@Amor and Toon - if you don't want a wagon on you Day 1 you need to adjust your playstyles. There's a reason you're being wagoned, and it's not random chance - it's because you play scummy.

@Thor: In the post you described as "egging on a townie fight" I said mastin seemed logical because I thought he was town despite disagreeing with him. I should have been clearer. It's pretty weak, IMO, and even you seem to realize it with the qualifiers you keep putting around this point. And how does my repeated suggestions that both Silver and SZS were town (as you also thought, and turned out to be the case) fit into this theory of yours?

Hmmm, I can see that angle in the post.
I don't think I put any qualifiers, other than opinion based ones.
If you're scum than you were slapping at it weakly for later town cred post flips.

You almost might have sold me, except for the old maxim about how long it takes to paraphrase a role PM.
I'm still down with a Toon Fighter lynch.

[Thor665]

EVERYBODY IN THE PINE/SZ/SILVER CLUSTER PARTY - PLEASE ZIP IT!

Two of you are confirmed town or near confirmed town, there are BETTER things to be doing.
One of you is Pine, who has better things to be doing - like digging up so quotes so I can stop feeling skeevy about him. Tick-tock, tick-tock, pal.

@SZ - Is Mastin a shinign wall of super brilliant play? Naaaah. But is he scum? I seriously doubt it. So unless you seriously think we should be lynching Mastin today how about we just settle for noting that if he makes it to the day before lylo he should probably be lynched, and leave it at that. Please? Thank you.

@Pine - Please take your whole "lol, masons are the scum team" theory, wrap it up, and sit on it. If all three of us are alive tomorrow then I'll be willing to hear it. Until than you're blowing hot air and doing exactly the thing you're digging into SZ about. You're attacking confirmed towns, who are *more* confirmed than Mastin or Silver so...yeah. Vote one of us or go do something useful.

@Silver - yes, great, you're defending Mastin. First off, this doesn't need to be a giant debate, and second off SZ is obviously more confirmed than Mastin so any disagreement between you about him should be kept short, sweet, and not wall posting. If he keeps banging his head against a wall after this - let it go. It's not helping anything. On a more fruitful line - have you weighed in on Toon or Amor yet? I recall you voting for Toon I think, but would like to hear some thoughts. Also, do you have any opinions about likely scum both on and off your and SZ's wagons. Let's be frank, everyone touting the either/or gibberish really is looking like scum setting up some mislynches with two town as the competition - that's an awesome Day 1 wagon and counter wagon for scum. So what are your thoughts there?

@Everyone

- who has a town read on Toon Fighter and why? I'm starting to think I'd prefer him dead over Amor.

[Thor665]

@DK - your thoughts on Toon and Amor as lynch prospects?

@SK - <3

[Thor665]

@Zephyr - that's awesome and exciting. What are your opinions?

[Thor665]

PEdit: KoC, I actually think Thor deserves the most credit for the Amor lynch, not Mastin.

I would give Mastin the props for killing the Silver wagon (though I wanted it dead too...I just wasn't willing to falseclaim Daycop to do it
But there was a reason I was grumping at my mason buddies kinda hard about that wagon while it was happening.
I don't think mastin helped catch Amor *other* than killing the Silver wagon though, so as far as that goes I agree that I'm awesome and should be loved

Mason-outing would have been done by me regardless.
Or if not me, SOMEONE. (And woulda been a good thing, but the lover thing...)

Masons pretty much always get outed on Day One.

Ah...no. Masons got outted because you fakeclaimed a Day Doc and helped advance a false premise case of 'if this one isn't scum than that one is' without bothering to look at the players buying into that false premise so easily, which would have helped lead you to certain scum, natch.

I will say again, as I did in the Dead QT, I actually thought your Daycop fake claim was fine, pro-town, and perfectly functional (though I wish your scumhunting afterwards had been better ) Most of your fakeclaims thereafter were kinda terribad and a spiral of confusing town though - and confused town is weak and uncoordinated town, and that strongly helps scum.

Also, I've been a Mason three times and this is the only game I was outed on Day 1 in, so...meh to your logic.

I think we need Thor dead. He is too accurate, and is not suspicious of the people we need him suspicious of.

The ultimate mark of respect for dying Night 1 - thank you

I pretty much agree with quadz on how this town went down after a strong opening. Hats off to the scumm0rz, hope I have a chance to lynch you again sometime.