New York 131: Tricycle Mafia (Day 5)

[silverbullet999]

-Max

Which is exactly what he did early game when he found a slight suspicion on Subzero and done nothing to pursue the suspicion or others.
He acted like mafia according to his own scumtell.

When was this?

Silverbullet - Sorry for being unclear.
"Are you attempting to say you were scumhunting me?"
That one please.

Simple answer, yes.

Explanation since it seems you think otherwise since your asking, just about whenever I shoot someone a question I'm doing it to get a read. Whether if it's seeing if it's an unfounded accusation, seeing the reasoning in their action, or simply seeing how they react.

[Amor]

I really don't see how that is scummy at all. You are clearly in the wrong mindset in saying that every few false "hint" is scumminess.

You don't see how "I'm voting for this person but I'm not sure if they're scum or town" isn't scummy? Your whole "sheep" schtick seems designed to allow you to hop on whatever wagon will get you a lynch without having to take responsibility for it afterwards. And the mindset you're referring to is being pro-town, you should try it sometime.

Who are the scum filling Silver's wagon? DK and KOC?

Them and maybe Pine. You and Mastin are right to say that it could be bussing, but I don't really get that vibe -- it seems like if they were bussing they would be making more forceful cases for town cred. In particular I don't think DK would be doing his "I'm just following the crowd" thing if he knew Silver would flip scum.

[Toon Fighter]

I don't like the posts between him and silverbullet (who, obviously, just claimed VT at L-1) and think we should lynch one of them. As silverbullet is already close to lynch, I decided to vote Subzero, but will be willing to hammer silverbullet if the need comes.

[Maxous]

When was this?

ISO 3-18 of your posts

Simple answer, yes.

Explanation since it seems you think otherwise since your asking, just about whenever I shoot someone a question I'm doing it to get a read. Whether if it's seeing if it's an unfounded accusation, seeing the reasoning in their action, or simply seeing how they react.

My issue is that all of your questioning was on people that suspected you first.

I don't like the posts between him and silverbullet

Which posts do you not like?
Why?

For the record I never said I think Silver and Subzero are bussing

[silverbullet999]

-Max

ISO 3-18 of your posts

Now when did I hold someone's actions suspicious and not press them if I felt it to give potential results?
1. That was early game day for the most part and I didn't find Sub to be heavily suspicious just a very slight slip here and there which i did point out and he more or less went "that's terrible your bad".
2. I nowhere stated, hmm I find this suspicious, and I bet if I pursue this I'll point out more how scummy someone is, but I don't feel it's worth the effort to pursue it. This is starting to feel like a mis rep. He clearly stated "Fun fact: the questions were pretty dumb and my answering them only points to how scummy you are. I didn't even feel them worth responding to but fine.". That isn't a town motivated thing to say at all and I nowhere near resembled then or now any such attitude.

My issue is that all of your questioning was on people that suspected you first.

Not exactly True, for the most part, all of my questions have been on people who have said something about me. I've always felt it's easier to get a read on someone attacking yourself then someone attacking another person. Their claims are much clearer to you in that position.

-Deity
Why are you ignoring post 327.

[DeityKabuto]

silver I am not ignoring, you spelled "Deity" as in "Diety" on that post, so it didn't catch my attention, also since you had empty quotes, that made it less attractive. But anyways I will respond now.

[DeityKabuto]

"You said this to mastin, but this doesn't make sense... because your vote isn't on him. Did you actually mean I would vote you?"

Yes.

To your last question, I had already explained my reasons for voting you, they are probably not the same as everybody else, I mean defend yourself in general. Right now, this activity sucks.

[mastin2]

For the record, progress has been kinda slow for me, sorry. I'll inform you of any reads in need of updating, since I believe I've gotten my thoughts out there already. (SubSith, Silver, Amor/Thor, and one of {Wraith, Surye, Zepher, someoneelseIdonotrememberoffthetopofmyhead}, if memory serves. It's still my current read.)

[nhammen]

Warning: incoming wall in however long it takes me to write it. Sorry for any inconvenience.

[mastin2]

From you? Kinda used to it.

[DeityKabuto]

For the record, progress has been kinda slow for me, sorry. I'll inform you of any reads in need of updating, since I believe I've gotten my thoughts out there already. (SubSith, Silver, Amor/Thor, and one of {Wraith, Surye, Zepher, someoneelseIdonotrememberoffthetopofmyhead}, if memory serves. It's still my current read.)

Yes, we need to get this going. I say everyone should be most active Friday-Saturday. If things continue like this, we may reach the deadline without a lynch.

[DeityKabuto]

For the record, progress has been kinda slow for me, sorry. I'll inform you of any reads in need of updating, since I believe I've gotten my thoughts out there already. (SubSith, Silver, Amor/Thor, and one of {Wraith, Surye, Zepher, someoneelseIdonotrememberoffthetopofmyhead}, if memory serves. It's still my current read.)

Yes, we need to get this going. I say everyone should be most active Friday-Saturday. If things continue like this, we may reach the deadline without a lynch.

Nevermind, deadly is in two days, let's start being active.

[DeityKabuto]

Alright then, everyone fill out the following form.

(You do not have to give reasons, they can be examined for it's bias and legitimacy by us as an individual.

List of those I think are Scum:
List of those I Suspect:
List of those I think are Town:

~ Mine ~

List of those I think are Scum: silverbullet999
List of those I Suspect: mastin, SubzeroSith, Toon Fighter, Wraith, Uite
List of those I think are Town: Knight of Cydonia, nhammen, Amor, MrZepher, Surye, Maxous, Nobody Special, Thor665, Pine

[nhammen]

I can't believe how blind you guys are.

I mean,

really.

Vote: Mastin

I know I'm not one to speak, but

this

is your first post after a 3 day absence!?! I agree with Pine's response: "Care to explain?"

Also, it has been almost a week since that post. Where are you?

@mod: Prod Nobody Special

I'd also like to direct everyone to Nothing Special's ISO.

0: Answering my questions. Fine.
1: Better than average random vote, but still not particularly good.
2: Empty.
3: "Uh wut I'm confused."
4: Worthless.
5: Almost looks like a random vote.

I've seen people do more scum hunting on page 1 than this guy has the whole game so far. Don't like it.

Agree. And note: this is still all his iso contains, almost one week later.

Just hit me.

If my VCA implicated Pine (which it did), and you're curious about my VCA this game (which implicates you)...

...Is that a scumclaim?

(This...probably makes more sense in my head than it does to anyone else, but the chain of thought is there, if you understand my wavelength of thought. )

Really mastin? Really? He is assuming that your VCA did NOT implicate Pine. That kind of play is not what I expect from you mastin. So yeah, it definitely makes more sense in your head than mine! This is one of the few non-scummy things coming from him.

On a side note, I really don't remember what you VCA indicated about Pine, and I don't really care about this particular (useless and distracting) argument to go reread that game. The point is moot.

mastin you lynch me first, if i flip town you lynch sub, if I flip scum... well you'll lynch sub anyway I hope but yeah, if I flip town you'll lynch sub anyway. Deal?

What kind of logic is this!?

I think Mastin hates me ._.

In other news:
My biggest scum reads happen to be Sub and Amor

Which now that I think about my vote is still on nhammen...
I'll double check to see if I want to keep it there...

In any case, I'd hate to use the argument "to town to be town" but Sub seems to fall into that argument. Idk. Something about the way he scumhunts doesn't sit well with me.
Silver come off as town, but ridiculous town. There's room for me to be proven wrong though.

So many things to say about this post, even if your vote had been on me:
A) You can't remember where your own vote is or why it is there? Isn't that a sign that maybe you should, I dunno, move your vote?
B) You thought your vote was on me, and thought you might prefer it to be on me than either one of the players you named as a scumread? Why does that even make sense?
C) You have to say what the something about why the way Sub scumhunts doesn't sit well with you. You can't just say something is wrong, and use that as a case.

Idk what's wrong with me @-@ sorry. But at least that explains why i wasn't sure why I thought I had my vote on nhammen....

Unvote

Also, why am I scum exactly?

Cuz you can't remember where your own vote is.
Cuz instead of voting one of the players you list as a scumread, you unvote.
Because the examples of cases you have presented so far in this game are: "scummy for whatever reason" and "doesn't sit well with me". And you don't even vote either of these cases.
Most posts in your iso give no reason for any "suspicion" you have had. There are a few. It seems that your strategy is to say someone is scummy, and then come up with reasons later.

Also, can someone explain to me the hate aimed at Subzero at the moment? I've read his ISO and I'm really not getting it.

Not getting it here either.

With Sub, the way he approaches his scum-hunting is very nit-picky, and he is very eager to discredit arguments made against him.
At least that's why he's suspect with me. I'm still wary about the other cases on him, but the way he's reacted to them thus far hasn't sat well with me.
(take the interaction with Sub vs Silver for example, and then with Mastin too.)

At this point I think I may be tunneling on you, but would you mind saying why nit-picky implies scum? Also, what about his reaction hasn't sat well with you. Stop being vague with your cases and say something concrete!

With Amor, it's mostly gut (Sub has some gut in it as well) BUT I don't like the way you take Thor's "coaching" and Maxous' 122 and blatantly misrep them.

I just isoed Amor to see what you were talking abut, because I thought that it was KoC that had problems with Thor's "coaching". Amor didn't think Thor was coaching, and I saw no misreps regarding either Thor or Maxous. Amor's criticism of Maxous is one of the few things that I agreed with him about! So, again, I'd like to know why you don't like these "misreps".

No one seems to agree with me about Knight so...

Unvote
Vote: Toon Fighter

reads as: This wagon isn't going to kick off. Let's hop onto one that'll probably go through.
Of course this assuming you're scum, which I'm not sure what the likelyhood of that is yet.
Probably somewhat likely at this time and place.

However, I do agree with this. Amor's unvote doesn't look good.

Just as a note, I'm not voting yet because I don't think they need votes on them yet, or at least not from me if that makes sense.

It doesn't. Votes don't just lead to lynches. Votes create pressure that the players on the other end are forced to react to. Votes allow us to read the person that is voting. Refusing to vote at all is anti-town.

Yes. I think my VCA nailed all the scum.

No. I don't know all the scum without flips. Because my INTERPRETATION of the VCA isn't perfect.

I made that quite clear. (I did, didn't I? I certainly thought I mentioned that at some point.)

To be honest, in TWWB, as scum, I found your VCA to be quite amusingly wrong. Your VCAs operate on too many false assumptions. Such as the horrible "scum don't want to all be on the same wagon" assumption. I specifically remember reading you saying something about that, and then looking at the votecount and seeing all of the scum on the same wagon, and laughing my ass off. If you do not account for the meta of the players in question, your VCA techniques are as useless as random lynching. Some players never vote on the same wagon as their buddies as scum, and some always do. Assuming that all players have the same meta is horribly wrong. But this is a topic for MD, so I need to stop discussing this here. It will just be a distraction.


----- bottom of page 10 -----

Yes, I intend to have another wall in a few more hours. eeep

[mastin2]

Alright.

List of those I think are Scum: SubSith, Silver, Amor,
\/ one of the below which isn't Thor.
List of those I Suspect: Thor (in place of Amor), Wraith, Zepher, Surye, Deity? (was that my fourth? Can't remember >_<) (but only one of them IS scum).
List of those I think are Town: Nhammen, Pine, NS (yes, really), Uite, Toon, Maxous, KoC. (To varying degrees, of course. Some of the names are obviously stronger than others.)

[Maxous]

Eh, sure >_>

By the way DK, did you intentionally not mention jmurph3?


Mafia - Silverbullet, Toon fighter

Meh(suspect) - Nobody Special, Amor, Mr.Zepher, Mastin2,

Town - Everyone else (also to varying degrees)

[DeityKabuto]

No Maxous, but jmurph hasn't done anything that caught my attention, so he goes as Town.

[SubzeroSith]

I just think it's interesting how 2 suspected likely scum are currently on the Mastin wagon but everyone else is still arguing over 50/50 scum/town

The bolded part is why I don't have a vote out.
I can't tell if either is scum. I'm suspect of one of you, but I don't have enough reasoning to constitute a vote, at least not imo.
I can see what Uite was saying about Silver's ramblings. I can generally make sense of it, once I get past the blabbering troll, but still.

I think there are more scum pushing for a Silver/Sub lynch then other, sense-making lynches.

This post, makes negative sense.

You don't have enough reasoning to constitute a vote, but a vote not out is a vote not gathering information (I think I said this earlier to KoC). If there are scum pushing for a Silver/me lynch over better lynches, then why not use your vote to push one of those better lynches? Does. Not. Compute.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Subsith

Don't have much time now. I like the case on subzero, and I had suspected him before. Also, I believe my vote is more useful there than where it is now. When I have more time (probably tomorrow, but can't promise anything) I'll make a bigger post.

Lookit scum trying to float under the radar when hopping back on the wagon of the player who hunted them down.

I don't like the posts between him and silverbullet (who, obviously, just claimed VT at L-1) and think we should lynch one of them. As silverbullet is already close to lynch, I decided to vote Subzero, but will be willing to hammer silverbullet if the need comes.

Translated: I'm scum and want another D1 claim so that my buddies and I can better use our NK.

@DK: Fair 'nuff. Actually, this is a pretty good point now that I re-read it--Silver is saying that if he's scum, he still wants the town to lynch us. That should say something. Vote stays.

Plowing through nhammen's wall now.

[Thor665]

I was gone 4 days and didn't post during a 5th and we haven't had even one more Amor post? Seriously?

First off - the whole "LOL it's either Silver or Sub" discussion is about five different kinds of headbangingly stupid talk. I, personally, say town for both of them. So how about we kill those wagons and people do something fething useful like vote Amor who is looking sketchy as hell with posts attacking Player A while voting B and sort of sideline egging on a fight.

If we have a Vig (or Sk who wishes to be thought of as such) I will give sloppy kisses for a DK kill. Just saying.

[Thor665]

One more Amor *vote* even.

[Thor665]

I don't like the posts between him and silverbullet (who, obviously, just claimed VT at L-1) and think we should lynch one of them. As silverbullet is already close to lynch, I decided to vote Subzero, but will be willing to hammer silverbullet if the need comes.

Oh, and I'm still down for Toon Fighter mostly just for this gak.

[nhammen]

False, I voted you initially because of how important you wanted to make your initial vote.

So me feeling like a vote with real reasoning (I explained it in quite some detail) is better than a meaningless RVS vote is scummy. Hmm.

Exactly. By silver's logic, scumhunting is bad. He obviously can't mean that, even as scum, but I don't get it either...

I wouldn't be surprised if others here looked through your ISO and likewise found pointless questions that lacked scum hunting value.

Mainly because his pointless questions did lack scumhunting value.

If you have a groundbreaking point that makes or breaks a case you have that requires responding to, then yes absolutely. If you're asking nearly pointless questions that get glossed over because they have almost zero significance to the game, and then refusing to participate further until said questions are answered then you are probably scum.

Agree. With the caveat that him asking again for a response was acceptable (and also preferred). It was only the stopping everything else to focus on this that was bad.

You know, you two really aren't doing a good job of convincing me I'm wrong about the whole bussing thing.

I was about to say that this does not look like any bussing I have ever seen, but then I remembered my first scum game, and this looks kinda like the bussing in that game, so it could be. However, I would think they would do this earlier in the day if that were the case, wouldn't they? At this late stage, it practically ensures that one of them will be lynched. In any case, Sub doesn't look like scum to me.

@silver 256: why didn't you respond to the point that is the first quote in this post of mine? That is one of the biggest points against you.

Silver, on the other hand, is displaying a significant departure from the very pro-town behavior I'm used to from TWBB.

I noticed the same thing, but then was wondering if I only saw him as obv-town in TWBB because I was scum in that game. Not sure.

Sub literally just said that him answering my questions would only point more to how scummy I am and he felt that doing that wasn't even worth it.

FALSE! He said that the fact that you were forcing him to answer pointless questions was what was scummy. Although, there is no such thing as pointless questions, so I disagree with this part of the case. But, the fact that you are twisting this like this is pretty scummy.

There's no point in leaving a lone vote on one person all day while someone you find almost as scummy has a significant wagon. I had gotten as much pressure as I could out of that vote, so with a KoC wagon not seeming likely I wanted to use my vote to actually influence who gets lynched. This isn't that hard to understand -- your last line suggests that you know there's more to voting than just putting a vote down on your #1 suspect.

OK, that logic is ok, and I have used it as town before.

Agree. Amor, what specifically are you referring to when you say his "gameplay as a whole is suspicious"?

Just look at his ISO. Knight refuses to take a position on more than one occasion, his only scumhunting is latching onto a comment of mine, and then he goes back to posting drivel like telling Uite not to lurk. He seems like classic low-key scum hoping to coast by through not saying much of anything, and so far he seems to be succeeding. (Pine also fits this mold to a lesser extent.)

I see this to an extent, but other players are doing worse.

-Surye
Stop avoiding my question
If I flip town will you be for a lynch sub the next day

I dunno about him, but I wont. Sub doesn't look scummy to me at all.

Wow, not much useful content on page 12. Multiple people discuss silver's townread on me, which could easily be him buddying up to me, or it could be a genuine townread. There isn't enough info at this point, to know which.


----- bottom of page 12 ------

More to come after dinner.

[SubzeroSith]

We really need to be lynching silver now. The deadline is getting uncomfortably close.

I'll tolerate a Toon lynch, but on the account of the VT claim I'd prefer to lynch silver today then take a look at Toon tomorrow. We definitely don't want to be pulling any more claims this close to deadline, as we'll either have a PR claim and not have time to deal with it, or we'll have double VT claims which gives scum a higher chance of nailing a town PR tonight.

Essentially, we hang silver today (as in date, not game day), and thoroughly analyze Toon tomorrow. I also am going to be suspicious of mastin if silver ends up scum (as he would have pushed the FoS scum buddy vote townie very very hard) but probably not if we get a town flip from silver.

[Thor665]

@Sub - what's your Amor read? I'm pinging townish on Silver right now and would rather wagon up Amor. the number of people drooling around going "must be one of Silver/Sub" just makes me squeamish for the whole pile, quite frankly.

[Pine]

More votes on Silver please. It's time. We're getting into that phase where productivity drops and we just start tearing at each other and messing with non-tells while scum sit back in either resignation or satisfaction.