Metropolis: Revisited [Game Over]

[Albert B. Rampage]

I was going to strike Magua, just for the record. I had Kast as town because Obliviousdruidmuncher said he was going to replace "for the team", plus Kast had claimed IC and was not SK.

I think it was fairly obvious the reason I was trying to appear scummy; it's because I didn't want to get daykilled. In the end it came down to Kast's decision and he "liked" Magua more. I am not liked. BAWW

Also, sorry DGB.

[ReaperCharlie]

Eh. Game lost on following KL.

We made the right moves, odds just weren't on our side.

Heh. It appears almost

nobody

thinks the odds were on their side. There have been a plethora of complaints from the Inner Circle, both scum teams, the town, and pretty much everyone but the Serial Killers, that the setup was way too stacked against them. Which is funny, because only the Serial Killers would have been justified in complaining that. Everyone else had just as good a chance as any other faction, except for the Serial Killers (and probably the Inner Circle, which I still think is the hardest faction to win with in this setup, even considering the power of knowledge that they have).

After a lot of contemplation, I think the reason for this (when I say "this", I mean the complaints about unfairness) is mainly because of site meta. People are

used

to Serial Killers, but they're not nearly as

used

to stuff like moles, or differing levels of trust that you can put in different people. They just aren't used to having knowns be unknowns, in terms of confirmability. But keep in mind: That does NOT make it inherently unbalanced.

Case in point: This setup would not play anywhere nearly the same the third time around (this was already the second, hence the "Revisited"). That's the way I make setups, so that they'll be good, interesting, and different the second, third, and even fourth time around.

Anyway, I just find it amusing that the people who really DID have the odds stacked against them (UT, Magua) were the only ones who haven't complained yet. Magua's not complaining because he worked his a$$ off to pull off an epic win. UT is not complaining because he has class and realizes that sometimes sh*t just happens, and it's not always your fault that you get screwed.

And a case in point of

that

, would be when two of the scum claimed scum and outed themselves and their buddy. As I said multiple times in the dead QT, they took a calculated risk in claiming based on an unknown. They knew what they would lose. 50% of their scum-team, to be exact. And they had no way of knowing what they'd gain (or rather, make someone else lose). Both moves were inexcusably poor, and their undeniably poor choices cannot, repeat,

cannot

, be blamed upon the setup in any way.

Because that is how the setup is designed.

To make people realize that sometimes they can't trust those who they think they can, and that sometimes they'll have to trust those who they think they can't. When creating the setup, I thought that it may happen, once. But I figured that the other scum team would take a lesson from the first one completely crashing and burning, and keep their mouths shut.

I was completely baffled when the second scum team calculated the risk, weighed it against an unknown gain (really, close to none), and then screwed their team over anyway. Utterly and completely baffled. I've very seriously considered blacklisting people from this game based off not playing-to-win. Screwing over another faction is not necessarily winning for yourself, and the fact that neither of them actually suspected the right person is just icing on the cake of why what they did was monumentally stupid, and squarely in the realm of playing-to-lose.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Odds = KL pronouncing Magua town

Nothing to do with the setup itself....

[ReaperCharlie]

Maybe I misunderstood your post, but the rest of my post stands true; pretty much everyone in the dead QT, regardless of faction, claimed that the setup was stacked against their faction, and to the point of brokenness. Which is hilarious in and of itself, but when coupled with the fact that the two people who it actually WAS stacked against (one of whom died right away, and the other of whom won) didn't complain one iota, it is just extremely amusing. Thanks for clearing up what you actually meant, though.

[Charon]

RC brought this up to me in the HP Development Thread, so I swung by.

I feel like the SKs should have been some-sort of Bulletproof. Modified Bulletproof, perhaps. Oneshot, enabled by each other, etc. SOMETHING.

Inner Circle is BAD BARGAIN. Honestly, the scumteams have all the right to be pissed; someone within an alignment-confirmed group that wins with another group is bollocks. Sorry, but the IC was a BAD IDEA.

RC, the mafia having a mole is definitely unbalanced, when the scumteams go in there like they did. Should they have paid more attention to the moles? Sure. Were the moles a bad idea? Yes. The self-sacrificing scumbags is precisely why moles are a bad idea.

I'm sorry, but the idea of a mole is just a bad idea.
There's no real way for the mafia to get around it, ESPECIALLY when you don't flip IC's as IC. If you had done that it would have been a BIT better.

Town had enough PRs, I guess. Invest-Immune SKs is just part of the job.

Short Ends of the Stick:
Mafia Factions
Night SK (given the day-one can't be Roleblocked)

Not So Short Ends of the Stick:
Town
Day SK

Shouldn't Have Happened:
IC

-Andy

[Albert B. Rampage]

DSK had a huge advantage that no one could stop his kills or deduce his identity through detention or protection...

That coupled with KL thinking he was town....KL thought I was scum too and tunneled me for god knows how long, I hope I was framed because damn.

Magua is an excellent player, but not as good as KK or Kise. KK knew to forgive me for striking him. Kise played very well strategically. Kast played badly, but given the alterations to his role and win condition, I don't exactly blame him...

I played well. I saved Kagelord's ass by striking DGB at exactly the precise time Magua was going to force KL to claim. That was epic. But you know what, if I let KL claim and die, maybe we would have lynched Magua lol

Toogeloo wasn't half as bad as I made him to be but he wanted to be a hotshot and strike early.

[Magua]

Nice job. You framed Camn really well. How exactly did your kill work?

I had a dayvig I could use at any time during the day. I was allowed to pre-submit the kill, along with when it would go off. Nearly all of my kills (except for Magna, IIRC) were timed to go off when the target was at L-1. The day I killed Magna, I had submitted a kill for Kise to die at L-1, but overrode it after BabySpice claimed. (I thought at the time that killing Magna would cause the other two IC to die, for some strange reason; in retrospect, it wasn't a good kill.)

I think it was fairly obvious the reason I was trying to appear scummy; it's because I didn't want to get daykilled. In the end it came down to Kast's decision and he "liked" Magua more. I am not liked. BAWW

FWIW, I was more scared of you than any other player in the game. I was *really* worried that D7, D8, or D9 would start with you placing a strike on me and starting a bandwagon. If it's any consolation.

I feel like the SKs should have been some-sort of Bulletproof. Modified Bulletproof, perhaps. Oneshot, enabled by each other, etc. SOMETHING.

I was one-shot bulletproof, but I never got shot (thanks again, Kublai!)

And thanks (more seriously) to everyone for the scummy nomination. And thanks to RC for modding.

AND LOOK ANDRIUS. TWO DAYKILLERS WON TWO GAMES TODAY. Doesn't that make you happy?

[Andrius]

So why wasn't UT bulletproof?

NO IT DOESNT. STFU, ITS YOUR FAULT YOU DIDNT LISTEN TO MEEEEEEEE

[Albert B. Rampage]

FWIW, I was more scared of you than any other player in the game. I was *really* worried that D7, D8, or D9 would start with you placing a strike on me and starting a bandwagon. If it's any consolation.

It is

You were super fun to play with Magua. Not deserving of a scummie, but I'm not the judge of that

[Magua]

So why wasn't UT bulletproof?

I asked RC this question when I saw the flip. He told me that I didn't know. =P

NO IT DOESNT. STFU, ITS YOUR FAULT YOU DIDNT LISTEN TO MEEEEEEEE

*pokes the baker with a stick*

Also:

The Inner Circle were composed of curiouskarmadog, Hrezs, and Friend/Xalxe/Mute

I'm amazed that two of the three IC were under suspicion and possible lynch targets D1.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Sorry, I saved Hrezs from Magua by striking DGB. Hrezs was the security officer.

Although I did defend Kagelord like he was my mother the entire time he was tunnelling me, and that counts for something lol

[Albert B. Rampage]

Oh Hrezs you bastard

[Albert B. Rampage]

I played well.

After Day 1. Before that I was horrible >.>

[Albert B. Rampage]

Also I was avoiding the words DSK as much as possible, and doing anti-town things, and striking early, because I didn't want to fucking get daykilled.

I hate serial day killers, worse role for me !

[AlmasterGM]

stuff

No.

The IC was unfair to the scumteams because if a member of the IC is about to go down, the optimal play is ALWAYS to out the entire scumteam so they reduce the chance of their buddy being lynched.

Example: Friend is about to be lynched. Outs me, Magna, and Baby Spice. Town spends next 3 days lynching us ... aka, NOT THE IC.

This play is always 100% optimal. There is no rebuttal - this game was unfair to the scum. End. Of. Story. Stop trying to pretend the setup wasn't borked.

[camn]

PS, ABR. . . I dont think it was bad odds for the town.
If we would have all massclaimed, taken a breath and did some scumhunting, the town had a plenty fair chance!
I think we lost on recklessness and poor fundamental play in endgame, myself included. That is all.
No odds. We were at 6 town 1 DSK, right? We were just all too rash.

A lesson for us all.. fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals.

[Albert B. Rampage]

PS, ABR. . . I dont think it was bad odds for the town.
If we would have all massclaimed, taken a breath and did some scumhunting, the town had a plenty fair chance!
I think we lost on recklessness and poor fundamental play in endgame, myself included. That is all.
No odds. We were at 6 town 1 DSK, right? We were just all too rash.

A lesson for us all.. fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals.

Realistically, if KL didn't call Magua town, we would have killed him.

[Albert B. Rampage]

And if Kast tried to win, we would have won.

I detained Mute, got him lynched after claiming so. What are the odds of a DSK claiming that he detained someone after a no-kill night, and then being right?

Kast screwed the town over, no buts and ifs about it.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Dude Magua was a dead man walking.

You're correct that ABR messed up his claims, but he was right about blocking Mute and no night kill. I believe his claim. ABR being a lazy idiot and screwing up an honest claim is not unusual for ABR.

Kast knew I was town. I knew Kast was town. We knew Kise and KK weren't lying. That left SC, camn and Magua. SC played a great game. We had three lynches.

There was no way we wouldn't have won, but Kast said "Killing ABR is more important to me than winning" so Magua won. Magua is a skilled player, but he didn't

have

to use his skill. He got the game handed to him.

[Magua]

Dude Magua was a dead man walking.

No, I had it won the moment you and Kast struck StrangerCoug D8, because I could've immediately killed at the start of D9.

I held back because I was scared that there might be a hiccup (Kast having the vest, or Kast being able to endgame in some weird scenario). If one of you had struck me first, I would've daykilled the other right then and there, which would've been a no lynch. I was holding back hoping that you would strike Kast and I could get him lynched.

So, <3 to Kast for liking me, but Kast liking me didn't cost you the win.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Could have speedlynched you though

[Albert B. Rampage]

That does makes me feel better about Kast. I just wish there weren't 3 roles to mess with the 1 cop. Ahh. It was such a bummer when the scums betrayed each other lol

[Magua]

Could have speedlynched you though

A possibility I was well aware of, yes. I was actually kind of expecting it from you, as I intimated before. My point is, don't blame Kast. =P

[Bunnylover]

Well just to me I didn't trust LLD because CKD didn't push for an ALG kill when he obviously knew he was going to be killed that night. I thought about CKD been the inner circle member, but to me it made more sense that LLD was and at that point we had lost the game. But then again, I would actually never claim scum in thread nor fuck over my scum mates like that. Its poor sportmanship.

@ALG: But the thing is that didn't happen. A scum member outted themselves + their members except for the IC. You can't say the game was unfair because they could do that, when they never did. And I doubt they woulda.

[camn]

Realistically, if KL didn't call Magua town, we would have killed him.

Obv we should have anyway.
I think we could have gotten there with some sane discussion post-massclaim.
But the anger of the mob... It make us into primitives.