Open 302: JUNGLE REPUB nope game over! Party time!

[Empking]

Wicked, Muffin: Would you mind looking for neil's post where he pointed out five leading questions. Fail to find it (because it doesn't exist). And then vote neil.

[neil1113]

Yes Wicked, Muffin... please vote me because this post doesn't exist!

See Emp? You're scum. I have one page of ISO and that's all you'd have to go through to see this post. Conveniently you've overlooked it. You're going to be lynched today Emp, because you're scum. And why do you keep asking people to do things, like quoting things to "everybody"... You're not in any position to be requesting ANYBODY to be doing ANYTHING.

[Duplicity]

I'm having incredibly bad internet troubles at the moment, I'm currently at the library but I'll save the tabs and read them when I get home. Likelyhood is I'll unable to post for the next two days or so. Apologies in advance.

[Empking]

Yes Wicked, Muffin... please vote me because this post doesn't exist!

Where in that post did you call the questions leading?

[neil1113]

^^ Lol okay. Have a nice day.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Waiting on responses from Muffin, Reg (knowing he's V/LA) and CJ now.

Continuing to joust with Empking when I've made my thoughts know is Anti-Town.

[Empking]

Yes Wicked, Muffin... please vote me because this post doesn't exist!

Where in that post did you call the questions leading?

Yeah that was my mistake.

MOI: Can I get your confirmation that your thoughts on "You're using the fact that I'm mainly looking at the people on my bandwagon as a reason I'm scum. You're ignoring the fact that if I am town my wagon is populated by scum because you're calling me scum. On this point your reasoning for thinking I'm scum is because I'm scum. Its not a serious worthy point." is "It’s just one factor. I’m not ‘ignoring the fact that you are Town’ because it isn’t a fact. Ask each player here and 100% will tell you they are Town."?

[Wickedestjr]

He jumped and voted Neil before the game had even started, what way isn't that over-eager?

Okay, then how was his over-eagerness scummy in this case? I also suspect Twistedspoon, but don't understand how over-eagerness in the pre-game is suspicious. How was his vote opportunistic?

Also, my gut scumread on you was becuase your ISO posts #1-6 all resemble coaching rather than actually scum-hunting.

Elaborate, please. Can you quote some examples?

I'd like for you to go into your town-read on MoI for me.

He's active and doesn't seem to care about what people think of him. He's also getting into arguments with people rather than sitting back and coasting. Aside from one comment he made which seemed off, I get the impression that he actually suspects Empking to be scum (this isn't a very strong point in his favor, but it does make him

slightly

more likely to be town imo).

You're not seeing how he changed the quote or you're not seeing how taking away the quote changed what the word "it" referred to?

I'm not seeing how MOI taking the quote out changed your point.

What was loaded about them and what was flufff about them?

MOI: Your question was X.
Me; Why was it X?

A loaded question is a question that makes a premise which hasn't been established. For example:

Wicked: What do you think of neil's habit of writing statements where everything is implied rather than said and as such gives him plausible deniability?

You asked me what I thought of neil trying to give himself plausible deniability, when I didn't even agree that he was actually doing such. It's a question that I wasn't able to answer, because I didn't agree with the premise it makes. What was I supposed to say? "Yeah, that's suspicious." "No, that's pro-town." I disagreed that he had done what you were accusing him of, so I wasn't able to answer the question. You asked several other questions like this, which I think were useless, and, as a result, fluff.

That the important thing was why he

said

something rather than why he thought something. (Which was the unrelated question he was answering.)

I still think it was unclear and I don't want to argue with you over this any more. You could have easily said "I want to know why you said the comment, not what you meant by it." Bolding the word 'said' didn't really make it much clearer.

Why did Hoopla do that? To find out the voter's alignment?

Well, she was scum, so she was obviously pretending to be trying to figure out the voter's allignment. She also could've been pretending to try to get the game out of RVS.

Your point?

My point is that the vote was random, so it was obvious that Hoopla wasn't defending Haylen.

I want you to check three games for whether there was defending day one. Tell me how long it takes.

I refuse to do this. I've been trying to get the point across that blatantly defending day 1 is very rare. If it takes me a long time to find anything, that will just prove my point.

Sorry I haven't been very active lately. I've had a lot of work to do the past few days. Hopefully I'll be able to catch up some more after dinner.

[Empking]

I refuse to do this. I've been trying to get the point across that blatantly defending day 1 is very rare. If it takes me a long time to find anything, that will just prove my point.

This is complete scummy bull. You were saying that I checked 100s of games in 10 minutes and that I was lying about checking only three. Surely you'd be eager to take the chance to prove that I was lying about only checking three games in my 10 minutes (By doing it in a significantly quicker time?)

Your point would be downright disproved if it took you along time.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This is complete scummy bull. You were saying that I checked 100s of games in 10 minutes and that I was lying about checking only three. Surely you'd be eager to take the chance to prove that I was lying about only checking three games in my 10 minutes (By doing it in a significantly quicker time?)

Your point would be downright disproved if it took you along time.

For the record note how Empking absolutely focuses on anything but the points about his 'search' that matter.

1. That he cherry picked a Lovers game (which has clearly a completely different dynamic than normal Mafia games).
2. That he first evaded explaining how he arrived at his 'evidence' until I forced him to.
3. That 1 game doesn't demonstrate his original theory - that scum teammates often strongly defend each other very early Day 1.

In summary - do the right thing - Hang Empking!

[Empking]

This is complete scummy bull. You were saying that I checked 100s of games in 10 minutes and that I was lying about checking only three. Surely you'd be eager to take the chance to prove that I was lying about only checking three games in my 10 minutes (By doing it in a significantly quicker time?)

Your point would be downright disproved if it took you along time.

For the record note how Empking absolutely focuses on anything but the points about his 'search' that matter.

1. That he cherry picked a Lovers game (which has clearly a completely different dynamic than normal Mafia games).

Apart from the fact that the dynamic is as good as exactly the same w.r.t the wolf team in this game.

2. That he first evaded explaining how he arrived at his 'evidence' until I forced him to.

I'm sorry but the word "lover" was bolded in that game I linked to. I was hardly hiding what I did.

3. That 1 game doesn't demonstrate his original theory - that scum teammates often strongly defend each other very early Day 1.

When did I say that scum teammates often strongly defend each other very early day 1?

[Wickedestjr]

This is complete scummy bull.

You

were saying that I checked 100s of games in 10 minutes and that I was lying about checking only three.

Umm... I think you are confusing me with MoI.

[Empking]

This is complete scummy bull.

You

were saying that I checked 100s of games in 10 minutes and that I was lying about checking only three.

Umm... I think you are confusing me with MoI.

Am I? I thought you were in agreement with him on that point. See that's the problem when you dredge up old posts.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Am I? I thought you were in agreement with him on that point. See that's the problem when you dredge up old posts.

And I never said that you checked 100s of games anyway. I said you were scum who tried to slide a cherry-picked game off as if you found it in the logical course of a search.

Empking - Never one to let the facts get in the way of his assertions!

[Wickedestjr]

By searching "lover*" in the Completed Open Game section.

Lover games aren't really a good comparison to this game. Why not check the Jungle Republics, considering they have the same amount of scum as this game and players are just as likely to defend each other?

Do you remember the intimate details of the games you've played?

I know I would have remembered scum blantantly defending each other very early in the game, as it would be something that would have surprised me after I saw the game's end result.

Why does this matter?

...because that is what you are saying is happening in this game. Are you really asking this question? My goodness.

Oy yeah: Wicked I've just realized that you asking for an example of a defence of a serious point during a period of time where its unlikely to have serious points.

Wat. I have no clue what you are saying.

I missed this:

I also want to ISO Deity, except his only posts are concerning Emp. I don't think he warrants much of a ISO, or a concern... not saying he reads town for me though. I can definitely see him being scum.

I agree with what Regfan had to say regarding this. It looks really bad. His response doesn't make any sense to me either.

[Empking]

Wat. I have no clue what you are saying.

On the first two pages of the game proper then its unlikely to be more than what you call "random" votes. The odds of scum being attacked with a serious point is very unlikely. That's the reason why I can't find what you're looking for which makes it completely useless when taking into account this game where a player in a two man scum team in a 13 player game

was

the victim of probably the most serious vote at the time.

[DeityKabuto]

TwistedSpoon

You are still avoiding my questions on post #257.

I had already stated this in the previous page.

[zMuffinMan]

@MoI,

-His reaction to pressure is suspect. He immediately tries to frame the (and this is conjecture but I think it holds water) weakest player on his early bandwagon as scum (Neil).

I can see where you're coming from here, but I interpreted it differently. To me it just looked like they had some sort of history. Empking stated in pre-game he was going to be voting Neil. Neil also initially voted Empking for his playstyle.

-His scum-hunting consists of mostly applying, in a generally inaccurate manner, Wiktells (AtE, Misrep, Strawman) to those who apply pressure to him.

I disagree with this. Although most of his posts have been him defending himself against several people attacking him, he has been trying to involve other people - I see him constantly asking for people's opinions on things that come up, and while that's not necessarily "scum hunting", it is a way of getting reads on people if he is town. It's not exactly pressuring people, but I wouldn't say he hasn't been scum hunting outside of his attackers.

Also, he has a point in saying that (supposing he is town) his wagon is most likely populated by scum. If he's town, the chances of him getting to L-2 just from townie votes is pretty low.

-drown the thread in posts, continually repeat questions about the same issue after they have been answered, and generally attempt to demonize those who attack you.

eh, I didn't think this was scummy. I thought this was more just him being pedantic and overzealous. I agree he needs to stop, though.

-Focused strongly on semantics and wordplay as opposed to scum-motivation for play.

I agree with this part. It's one aspect of his play I don't like, but I'm more null on it. It's anti-town and I think it needs to stop.

I think I need to take a look at Empking's meta before I go any further with this. I really don't have any idea if this sort of playstyle is normal for him.



@neil,

So, you're saying that asking leading questions aren't scum-motivated techniques, so you don't have a problem with them?

Uh... I don't really see how asking leading questions is necessarily a scum-motivated technique.

[neil1113]

I agree with what Regfan had to say regarding this. It looks really bad. His response doesn't make any sense to me either.

My response doesn't make sense? What do you not understand?

Uh... I don't really see how asking leading questions is necessarily a scum-motivated technique.

What's the point of asking leading questions in your opinion?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOD – I’ll be V/LA for my normal weekend family duties til Monday morning.

--

Also, he has a point in saying that (supposing he is town) his wagon is most likely populated by scum. If he's town, the chances of him getting to L-2 just from townie votes is pretty low.

No-one is saying there aren’t possible a scum or two on his wagon currently. I disagree completely that it must be populated by scum. I'd wager that more Town are there than scum.

--

@ALL PLAYERS NOT EMPKING –

I want you do to a little thought exercise involving Empking. He’s been at L-2 for a significant amount of time (since April 29th, so a full week). Here is his current wagon (per Mod’s last VC. I don’t think anyone has moved off since Wednesday which is when we had this list)

Empking (5) - MagnaofIllusion, neil1113, DeityKabuto, cjdrum, HezLucky

I want you to consider the following scenario –

If Empking is Town he’s been at L-2 for seven days. I think it is safe to say by his play if he was Town scum would have moved to at least put him at L-1 or finish his lynch. Both scum factions have it in their interest to lynch those who aren’t them. Empking’s play hasn’t been of a standard where anyone is likely to feel they will come under fire for pushing him to hang.

If you disagree with the above we can discuss but I would like you to consider the following.

If Empking is Town then there MUST be a significant amount of the 5 scum on his wagon. At least 4. Otherwise the push to lynch him from both scum factions would have come by now.

Do you believe that at least 4 of the 5 players on that wagon are Scum? Furthermore do you think it likely that a significant portion of the scum would pile together on one wagon of a Townie in getting him to L-2?

If Empking is scum then the stalling of his wagon at L-2 makes more logical sense. The number of players who actively would want to hang him immediately drops from 5 to at most 3 (and likely 2 based on my thoughts). Additionally he has either 1 or 2 other players who have a vested interest in not voting him.

This makes the reason that his wagon has stalled out much more understandable, IMO.

--

Ok, now after that thought exercise I would place the following players as Empking’s most likely partners. If he flips scum (which I feel he will) you definitely want to look in this pool –

Wicked – Look at his ISO. It is absolutely filled with point after point where he is arguing with Empking. It’s the dominant part of his ISO. Yet he shows absolutely no movement to actually consider voting him. In fact he ‘RVS wagonned’ Emp but was very quick to jump off when Empking started to get heat.

Sloth - Zero interactions with Empking, but when questioned says he’d support an Empking lynch in ISO 6.

Caboose – Spends a paragraph in ISO 3 in what looks to be coaching Empking about his play. In the same ISO attacks the biggest VI in the game (yes, even bigger than Empking) DK and never looks back. Later states he’s ‘unenthused’ about the Empking wagon but provides no reasoning.

Those are my top picks for possible partners for Emp.

[Empking]

Furthermore do you think it likely that a significant portion of the scum would pile together on one wagon of a Townie in getting him to L-2?

(Not directed to MOI (as in I'm not asking for an answer))
It makes more sense when you remember that neil and MOI are the wolves together and I essentially forced them to stay on my wagon.

[Umbrage]

Empking (5) - MagnaofIllusion, neil1113, DeityKabuto, cjdrum, HezLucky
Twistedspoon (3) - zMuffinMan, Wickedestjr, Caboose
DeityKabuto (2) - Sloth, Twistedspoon
neil1113 (2) - Regfan, Empking

Prodding cjdrum for the second time. Prodding HezLucky, Caboose and Sloth for the first time.

I didn't state a deadline before because I don't like deadlines, but with the vote count not changing and a lot of people in need of prods, it's time to hurry things along. Deadline is set for a week from this post, 11:00 Friday 13 EST.

[Sloth]

I'm still here. I've realized with a week left, the DK wagon isn't going to go anywhere and Empking has become basically our only feasible lynch.

Which I'm fine with.

UNVOTE: DK
VOTE: Empking

[Empking]

I'm the Seer. As MOI said my wagon is populated by scum. Can we lynch neil now?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm the Seer. As MOI said my wagon is populated by scum. Can we lynch neil now?

If he's fake-claiming real Seer do NOT counter-claim.