Stefunny wrote:ReaperCharlie wrote:And I only referred to HP mafia again because I wanted NS to know for sure that this was NOT that.
Pinky swear?
Is he just supposed to take your word for it?
No, he's not. Not at all.
That's exactly why I am explaining everything and linking to/quoting from a game where it DID work out magically, instead of a game where NS would get terrible impressions from it.
That's why I'm even bothering to explain all this, because I DON'T want anyone to have to take my word for it. See also this parts of post #114:
I mean, I am actively trying not to come out and say "Shut up, just do it" or "Hay guyz trust me!", I'm actually legitimately trying to present this as a good course of action. I have realized that the more I explain, the more people are actually legitimately willing to try something that's intelligent. When I just say "shut up, do it", that's a gigantic turn off to them and anyone else who sees it. And this whole Alliance thing is a team effort, so it's important not to cultivate that kind of anti-trust sentimentality. That tears towns APART. What I am trying to do is build us up.
I'm really trying to point out pros and cons instead of just being like "stfu and trust me on this", which is my normal approach. lol
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kryptinen wrote:Definitivamente estoy en contra de esta alianza, a menos que yo estoy en ella. Estoy hablando muy en serio. (no lo soy.)
Puedo tipo de ver cómo se puede utilizar, pero hay la posibilidad de que el juego será totalmente dominado por la alianza y la mafia que no están en alianza puede ocultar más fácil, si en algún momento la mayor parte de la discusión sucede dentro de la alianza. Definitivamente no debe ser dirigido por una persona, incluso si esa persona es mecánicamente confirmó ciudad. Sobre todo uno que es tan seguro de tener razón como ReaperCharlie es.
Que sólo las huelgas "seguir al líder"y que se lleva la mayor parte de la diversión en el juego.
Por otro lado, hablar de esta alianza tiene el tiempo que podría pasar en realidad la captura de la mafia. ReaperCharlie estaba listo para dejar este debate de dos días, pero simplemente sigue apareciendo. Entiendo que es bueno saber lo que la gente piensa de él, pero esto es ridículo. Hiraki y Rhino tenía algo que decir sobre los demás, pero ha conseguido enterrados en discusión la alianza.
@ Hiraki: ¿Por qué estás pidiendo ReaperCharlie saltar en principal sospechoso de tu? Si usted piensa que Rhino es la mafia, ¿por qué no encontrar tus propias razones? Pidiendo ReaperCharlie acaba de tomar el debate lejos de principal sospechoso tu.
Rehuir: Hiraki
Tanstalas en no en el claro, pero él ya está en el centro de atención. No debemos dejar que las cosas quedan enterradas bajo la alianza.
I am definitely against this alliance, unless I am in it. I'm dead serious. (I'm not.)
I can kind of see how it can be used, but there is the possibility that the game will be totally dominated by the alliance and the mafia not in alliance can hide more easily, if at any time most of the discussion going on within the alliance. Definitely should not be run by one person, even if that person is mechanically confirmed town. Especially one who is so sure of being right as ReaperCharlie is.
That just smacks of "follow the leader" and that takes most of the fun out of the game.
On the other hand, during discussion of this alliance is the time you could actually catch the mafia. ReaperCharlie was ready to leave this debate for two days, but just keeps appearing. I understand it is good to know what people think about it, but this is ridiculous. Hiraki and Rhino had something to say about others, but discussion has gotten buried under the alliance.
@ Hiraki: Why are you asking ReaperCharlie jump on your prime suspect? If you think that Rhino is the mafia, why not find your own reasons? Asking ReaperCharlie just takes the debate away from your main suspect.
Shun: Hiraki
Tanstalas is not in the clear, but he is already in the spotlight. We must not let things get buried under the alliance.
Wait. You
are
, ...or
aren't
dead serious?
Yes, it's possible that the game can be dominated by the Alliance. That's the whole idea of having an Alliance. Using brute force apart from townieness/scumminess to break the game, and forcing people to comply with popular opinion (and while more townies are alive than scum, this organized group-think is guaranteed to be LESS rather than MORE influenced by scum). Basically, it upholds the "sheeple" mentality but at the same time cuts out the middleman of the scum trying to manipulate everything in its birthing stages, by carrying thoughts and suspicions directly from the source (people's minds) to fruition (votes and lynches), while eliminating most of the "stew" in the middle (which is when good scum play can change people's hearts on a lynch, and make other people look scummy). Doing this effectively negates a good percentage of good scum play, and makes it much more likely that the town can win.
And Yes, it somewhat takes the fun out of the game, because it makes the game go a lot faster and eliminates a lot more scum a lot faster without nearly as many town casualties. Still though, that's why a lot of people who UNDERSTAND it don't like it. But the people who do like them, like them because it somewhat breaks the game in their favor. Those who are against it WITHOUT understanding it, have either never seen one before, or have seen one executed improperly (i.e. without all of the proper rules/motivations/etc).
The proper execution for an Alliance is comparable to the breaking strategy for the
Assassin in the Palace gametype (if you don't know what that is, click the link). It describes both the game type and the breaking strategy. Alliances are merely a different version of that, translated to a regular mafia game vice the Assassin in the Palace version. Hope this helps you to understand it better. It's playing the odds instead of playing the feelings. And the odds are vastly in our favor, if this is anything close to normal (which, as I understand from reading my role PM and the OP, it's not. but still, the same principle applies).
The reason I tried to start an Alliance in this game BEFORE I gained a huge measure of pro-town appeal, was because I wanted people to know that:
a) I wasn't using it as an insurance policy so that I could trick everyone even more than I already had (like the game I'm never supposed to mention again),
b) I wanted it to be clear that I was not trying to lead anything or run anything, I was just proposing the idea, and if people thought it was feasible, then I would help with the logistics of the thing,
c) It was a "take it or leave it" thing. I am going to explain it, but I'm not gonna cram it down anyone's throats if they don't want it. This is what most of you don't seem to get.
and
d) It has worked very well for me in the past, that much is 100% undeniable. there are times when it didn't seem to be working, but those are the times when it worked best. you'll have to trust me on that, because you don't know what I knew and you didn't gain the experience I did. Hindsight is 20/20, as I am fond of saying, and I learned very very much from observing past alliances from "after-the-fact" standpoints.
Anyway, that being said, I am going to drop the Alliance idea at this point. There is too much opposition to it, and not enough people are interested in the idea, or are willing to pseudo-trust people for the "greater good" (/inb4 hot fuzz).
Maybe these work better in large games, I don't know. I've never tried it in a mini before. Maybe it's just too much for a mini game. Anyway, whatever. It took up a few pages of discussion, yeah, but it's not like I've tried to distract anyone from anyone else's scumminess. If anything, it's only inflamed things and solidified people's opinions of each other.
That's another reason why Alliances and Alliance discussion is pro-town, because it tends to polarize people on the issue (those pro-Alliance and those anti-Alliance), and very much is revealed about where people stand on certain issues, and the ways in which they want to scumhunt and/or not scumhunt. lol.
Anyway, seeing that phenomenon much more clearly this game than in any past games I've tried Alliances in, I think I'll begin to use that (alliance discussion, that is) as an RVS replacement in most or all of my future games. It's much better than RVS or RQS. I'll call it ADS (alliance discussion stage) or something, heh.
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kryptinen, what did Hiraki and Rhinox have to say about others? I too, am eager not to have things buried under ADS (<--woot, I said it in a sentence).
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ANOTHER THING I'D LIKE PEOPLE TO DO IS, WHOEVER POSTS AFTER KRYPTINEN, EACH TIME (if you can remember), PLEASE TRANSLATE HER POSTS ON GOOGLE TRANSLATE (using the link she always provides, thanks kryp), AND POST THEM AS AN ADDENDUM TO YOUR POST. MAKE SURE TO ATTRIBUTE THE QUOTE TO KRYPTINEN, AND MAKE SURE TO
STRIKE OUT
THE SPANISH AND
COLOR IT GRAY
.
THE SOONER AFTER HER POST THAT THIS IS DONE BY SOMEONE ELSE, THE BETTER. THAT WAY WE GET TO HEAR HER POSTS IN THE CONTEXT THAT SHE MEANT THEM, NOT A PAGE OR SO LATER WHEN SOMEONE ACTUALLY QUOTES/RESPONDS TO IT, LIKE I'VE DONE HERE.
I WILL DO MY PART, IF I HAPPEN TO POST AFTER HER. EVERYONE ELSE, PLEASE DO YOURS.
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Doombunny9 wrote:RC wrote:
Doombunny. Who do you think is scum or town? And why?
My top four reads (in order) are-
1. Charlie for reasons already stated
2. NS for trying to pull off policy lynches rather than people he finds scummy-possibly to just bring a mislynch without having to take as much blame
3. Zodiark for not contributing much (The only person that we know of that he thinks is scummy is tan but the case is weak and may be artly OMGUS) and trying to use "I'm not on that often" as an excuse
4. You for distracting the town from scumhunting.
Everyone else is null for the most part although some are leaning town for various good posts.
1. I agree on Charlie.
2. I disagree on NS. He seems pro-town and his suspicion of me + Alliances is completely legitimate, especially considering our history.
3. I need to re-read Zodiark, I have basically ignored his posts all game.
4. Read my whole posts, please. This one and the others. I happen to think Alliance Discussion Stage (ADS) is at LEAST twice as good as RVS or RQS in terms of polarizing people in a "moral" argument, and the only thing it lacks is the contrivance and possible pre-planning that scum do in order to make others look scummy during RVS and RQS. The only reason you think Alliance Discussion is DISTRACTING from scumhunting is because you haven't tried to use it to scumhunt before, like I have, and am.
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tanstalas wrote:ITT we learn doom is prob-town
Just from that post? What are you seeing that I'm not?
Not to say I don't find him vaguely pro-town (I recall saying something to that effect yesterday, if my memory serves me correctly), but I don't see why anything in that post strikes you as particularly prob-town. Please expound.
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Hiraki wrote:kryptinen wrote:@ Hiraki: Why are you asking ReaperCharlie jump in your prime suspect? If you think that Rhino is the mafia, why not find your own reasons? ReaperCharlie asking just take the debate away from your main suspect.
On the contrary, I've used Reaper's ideas and the reactions of others as my own scum-detecting weapon.
Even if it isn't a gambit, it's still helpful in the sense that it will help me and others find scum in the future.
THIS.
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Umbrage wrote:My vote sticks with tanstalas. He's done nothing pro-town thus far. He makes a big stink of OMG YOUR SCUM then drops the case entirely.
And yet you still fail to answer my questions.
You are:
a) antagonistic.
b) tunneling.
c) dodging questions.
d) all of the above.
Confirm or deny.
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@ Rhinox #163: I still think it's null.
I have tried scumhunting before based on the nuances of people's word choices (i.e. the addition or subtraction of a modifier such as "merely"), and believe me. It's really, REALLY hard to get anyone to believe a case like that.
I am sensing genuine townie rage from you, which is why I'm taking the time to explain this. But I also think you're wasting your time focusing on that issue.
(F***, why am I talking like an IC. I've never even BEEN an IC before.)
That said, the issue of "HAY YOU'RE SCUM FOR FALLING FOR THE ALLIANCE GAMBIT" is worth looking into as it's far more dubious/interesting than MerelyGate. I was very
on that, and still am. It sounded more like someone (whether town or scum) who wasn't paying any attention whatsoever to context, rather than someone who was deliberately gambiting or counter-gambiting (or counter-counter-gambiting, etc.)
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@ Charlie: No. Don't ever compare me to Fate again. Please and thank you.
I freakin' hate when people compare me to Fate. We are nothing alike.
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Stefunny wrote:Charlie wrote:Oh yes. There are tons of things I can pick on it, but I'd rather stay mum about it until more people post. Be patient, good things come unto those who wait.
This was in reference to RC at #65, yet I don't see you making ANY reference to it in your most recent post. That was a large part of my vote on you. And no, I don't see enough content in your post to make me change my mind. You didn't make any stands on any of the topics that have been discussed in the last 5 pages, not even a wishy-washy one.
AND after saying you had all kinds of things to pick on about RCs post you still base your vote on GUT?
THIIIIIIS. LOL
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Haylen wrote:shun count
yes please.
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Hiraki wrote:Rhinox wrote:Also, if he was town who thought it was a gambit, then speaking out against the idea actually undermines the effectiveness of the gambit. This also makes it seem like Hiraki was just looking for town points in his response.
Speaking out against it was the point of RC's "gambit". If you propose something that is Anti-Town and people agree with it, then the people that agree with it have been caught by your gambit. hurr durr
Except for the fact that I proved extensively how pro-town it was.
See also:
, where Andrius proposed a hypoclaiming idea which meant that whoever was Cop or Tracker would claim their results in-thread, but that everyone else would also claim results whether they were Cop or Tracker or not. This meant that when the Cop or Tracker flipped, that we could go back and see their results. People discussed this strategy for a couple days (not Days, just days) and Andrius was lurky and non-committal throughout the entire process. Then he came back with an ill-conceived wall which was mostly fluff, and after being called out on it, we all lynched him for it. He flipped town. I was also town in that game, and I was arguably the one who caused his lynch.
This discussion on his new idea, however, coupled with other things that happened during discussion, such as scum slips, buddying, distancing, and people pretending not to understand things, helped the rest of the town lynch scum three days running. Bam, bam, bam. It was magical. I am only sorry that I wasn't there to tell them how good of a job they did. It was an epic win.
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In conclusion, I am gonna wrap up this post with my reads.
NOT FOR LYNCHIN'/SAVE FOR LYLO
-Stefunny
-Nobody Special
-Doombunny9
COOL, BUT AS COOL AS THE ABOVE
-Rhinox
-tanstalas
-kryptinen
NULL; NEED TO CONTRIBUTE MORE
-Pulindar
-Zodiark13
-Hiraki
FOR LYNCHIN'/VIGGIN
(if we have one)
-Charlie
-Umbrage
(either of those last two can die today, I have no huge preference either way)
