Cold War Mafia - GAME OVER!!

[Sotty7]

15th vote count of day 5

PeregrineV - 3 -

smargaret, Beasts of the Sea, Lowell

bvoigt - 1 -

Enigma

Enigma - 3 -

Furcolow, The Fonz, Sathoris

Beasts of the sea - 1 -

PeregrineV

Sathoris - 1 -

bvoigt

smargaret - 1 -

ThAdmiral

Not voting - 0 -

No one

• With
  10
  players alive, it takes
  6
  to lynch
  
• Deadline for the end of day five is Wednesday 11th May @ 8am CST

[The Fonz]

I actually would like to take a closer look at ThAd. The only reason he's remained clear in my mind is DP's "role related information" which was a lie, wasn't it? :-/ I need to actually reread him and make sure that townread is warranted. Is that kind of stunt something DP would pull for a scumbuddy?

I'm sorry, DP's lie was revealed days ago, and you're bringing this up now?

I'm also suspicious of Fonz. He's completely abandoned his "You must be scum because Feysal flipped town" and his "LAL => Lynch Furc" and those are starting to look like scum going for the easy mislynch dropped for lack of interest.

This is pretty clearly a direct lie. No-one who's actually read the game and posting in good faith could possibly argue that I have 'completely abandoned' my smarg-is-scum line of thought.

There's at most two scum in the claimed capitalists (

I think Smarg, Enigma or Beasts, in that order- interestingly, though

Smarg is by far the individually scummiest,

the other two are more connected).

Yes, posting once per prod period over a prolonged period of time is a scumtell. Hence me flagging up Sathoris as someone who was lurking and not getting called on it. My town read on Lowell has also slightly weakened as a result of his having started to lurk again recently. And

I'd prefer a smarg lynch to yours, because she set up that 1-1, and has been lurking and not scumhunting today.

I'd be equally happy lynching Sath as you.

I will not at this stage accept any other lynch but Enigma or Smarg.

Btw, for people WIFOMing about 'Why would a scum set up a 1-1?'

It's not a 1-1 if the town isn't willing to lynch the accuser if the accused comes up town. Given that town has already let two players who lied about their roles off the hook, and that, if scott hadn't died overnight, we'd have been at the stage where American scum need only one vote to secure majority, then it makes sense that Smarg would have thought she could get one townie to bite on 'Well scum wouldn't do that because it's suicidal' type wifom. Especially since THE AMERICANS (presumably) KILLED OVERNIGHT SOMEONE WHO HAD PROMISED TO VOTE SMARG TODAY.

I mean, does it even look possible that anyone could look at these posts, and honestly conclude 'Fonz has completely abandoned his belief that Smargaret is scum?' I don't think so. She's clearly being dishonest here. I changed my vote because I was on a one-man wagon. I had no chance of getting Smarg lynched without ThAd's help.

As for Furc, dropping a wagon when it is clearly unviable is the right town thing to do. It's perfectly possible to believe that someone is scummy and needs lynching, and yet also realise that it's not going to happen that day, and devote your efforts to working out which of the viable wagons is the best lynch.

And 'easy lynch' is such a scumbag argument. Seriously. The arguments on you and Furc are easy to make because you've both done things that town should never, ever do, but scum would love to do if they can get away with it. And guess what? You've both pretty much gotten away with it. You've taken actions massively beneficial to scum, and you've not been lynched for it.

unvote, vote: Smargaret

[bvoigt]

UNVOTE: Sathoris
VOTE: smargaret

Sathoris needs to die eventually, though.

[The Fonz]

2155 says exactly what I was thinking about smarg of late. The "if I flip town, WILL YOU REPENT/BE SCUM/TERRIFYING QUASI-THREAT" posts are bad news.

Lowell, join us.

[Furcolow]

the fonz and enigma are scumbuddies

[The Fonz]

Furc, could you explain 'interactions regarding Janos Kadar?' Do you mean his behaviour around the time Gonnano claimed, or his trying to play up the soviet mafia flip over the actual rolename to try to paint the claimed Americans as scummy?

[Beasts of the Sea]

The question is more like, do we lynch Beasts today, and if he is town, I'll shut up and be the lynch tomorrow. Wouldn't that be groovy?
No more me and my craaaaaaazzzzzzzzyyyyyyyyy ideas.

No way are we lynching the guy who is clearly trying in this game, who is posting this game when hardly anyone else seems to be bothered, when there are much MUCH better options out there.

From context ThAdmiral, I assume you are talking about me in this quote... but what happened in the next five hours that ejected me from the so called voting block? That seems like a pretty drastic (and unwarranted) turn around.

I'm not going to continue to support a wagon pushed by smargaret and Sathoris, along with Beasts, who despite saying Enigma is scum and I am his partner with unspecified 'ties' is quite happy to push the counterwagon.

You can quit with the melodramatics at any time, Fonz. I was on Enigma all day when it wasn't even a viable wagon. There were

no

viable wagons at the time (remember all the Feystalling, and the 'rainbow vote count' comments?). So, saying I'm pushing a counterwagon is not even close to true. In fact, you were the one that made PeregrineV the leading wagon when you joined before bailing.

I've made it abundantly clear that I am okay with either a Enigma or PeregrineV lynch today, but the question is really this: why wasn't anyone joining the Enigma-wagon earlier, when I was pushing it? It only began to garner votes once I switched.

@The Fonz- Beasts has to say that in order for his "3 american scum team + Peregrine" to make any sense. He knows your not scum.

Even if I

was

scum, how would I know that The Fonz is

not

scum? For all I could know, he might be on the rival scum team.

Also, by the way, beasts: policy lynching IS scumhunting. It's probably its purest form. Saying 'X action almost always comes from scum, so lynch for it.'

But my whole point was you were neglected to do anything else for a long period of time. As I said here it seems you didn't even look at peripheral reads of people surrounding your policy lynches.

The Fonz, I especially like how your confidence level on Enigma being scum ratchets up a notch the closer he got to being lynched and tried to make ties from him to me; especially considering you were so hesitant to consider voting him previously. Then, you jump ship as soon as votes start falling.

Enigma and The Fonz are partners. You heard it here first.

As The Fonz said, fuck it. If we want to leave a NK in play then so be it. But lynching Enigma is almost as good because it will confirm The Fonz as scum tomorrow.

Unvote
Vote: Enigma

[ThAdmiral]

The question is more like, do we lynch Beasts today, and if he is town, I'll shut up and be the lynch tomorrow. Wouldn't that be groovy?
No more me and my craaaaaaazzzzzzzzyyyyyyyyy ideas.

No way are we lynching the guy who is clearly trying in this game, who is posting this game when hardly anyone else seems to be bothered, when there are much MUCH better options out there.

From context ThAdmiral, I assume you are talking about me in this quote... but what happened in the next five hours that ejected me from the so called voting block? That seems like a pretty drastic (and unwarranted) turn around.

Eh. You'd been teetering on the edge for a while.

[ThAdmiral]

Also 2 days until deadline.

[PeregrineV]

@Peregrine: Wasn't Che Guevara Communist?

Actually, now that you mention it, in the stricest sense he should be, esp given his Cuban nationality in the game is also communists. The only reason my brain placed him in the "West" is because Cuba is geographically near the US, in the West, and as opposed to the "Eastern Bloc". It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but that's why I had him on the "US" side.

But yeah, I now need to go back and loook everything over based on this.

[PeregrineV]

15 bunnylover Che Guevara - Cuban Roleblocker.

3 RedCoyote John Glenn, US Odd-Night Vigilante.
20 LlamaFluff John F Kennedy, US Townie
23 hohum Harold Wilson, British Townie
16 Amrun Joseph McCarthy - US Blacklister
2 Debonair Danny DiPietro Edward R Murrow - US Townie

9 VP Baltar Ho Chi Minh - Vietnamese Soviet Mafia Goon
21 nachomma8 Josep Broz Tito - Yugoslavian Townie
17 gonnano Janos Kadar - Soviet Mafia Goon
12 XScorpion Leonid Brezhnev, Soviet Townie
5 Feysal Erich Honecker - Soviet Neighbour

14 Scott Brosius J Edgar Hoover - US Mafia Jailkeeper

7 LynchMePls Nikita Kruschev - Sovier Watcher
19 Stephoscope Andrei Gromyko - Soviet Mafia Rolecop

Full player/nationality claim list:

Americans:

ThAdmiral
Enigma

Other Free World:

Beasts of the Sea - French
Smargaret - West German

Soviets:

Bvoigt
Lowell
Furcolow
PeregrineV

Other Communist:

Myself - Polish
Sathoris - Albanian

If bvoigt is right, then are Albania and Poland considered Soviet? Then it's 10 and 14. Or, more people are lying, or I've got someone on the wrong side.

Unfortunately, too much of this really does devolve into outguessing the mod, and that's something I won't try and do.

So, for now, I'll stick to my 2 US scum theory and address the posts since this one, although I will admit I'm now less sure.

[PeregrineV]

I am, in fact, a doctor

targets?

And apparently, since I overlooked your name:

@Furcolow:
Please give your read on the remaining players below. Also, your opinions on 2 remaining US scum, 3 US +1 Soviet scum, or other scum totals is also appreciated.

1 Beasts of the Sea
4 Enigma
6 PeregrineV
8 ThAdmiral
10 Furcolow
11 Lowell
13 smargaret
18 bvoigt
22 The Fonz
24 Sathrois

[PeregrineV]

@Sathoris- Can you provide your thoughts on the final breakdown of scum remaining and list where you believe each player to be?

1

Beasts of the Sea

- We know there are european nationalities in this game, I doubt the british are the sole representative. I believe he's french, but that doesn't absolve him from being USA scum. If a vietnamese was in the Soviet scum team than a british or french guy can certainly be so aswell.

US Scum

4

Enigma

- We've got six confirmed dead US townies. With a probably 4 extra as scum that leaves 1 US townie left and as I think that belongs to ThAd I'm gonna say

US Scum

6

PeregrineV

- Posted his voting tables but the promises analysis hasn't been delivered. Claimed soviet, which is suspicious in it's own.

Soviet scum

8

ThAdmiral

- Appeared town in my eyes since his first claim.

US townie

10

Furcolow

- Lying all throughout the whole game. Now he's claiming doctor again. I don't buy it. I'm with the Fonz on this one. Lynch the liars.

Soviet scum

11

Lowell

- Soviet claim again isn't telling us a lot but since there is only one contender for a soviet scum and he's been playing town in my eyes he's lowest on that list, so

Soviet townie

13

smargaret

- Depending on the nationality of the last Soviet scum this could be an interesting lynch. If the last soviet scum flipped a nationality different than soviet. (i.e. Vietnamese or Chinese) Then we can assume the US scum have two US players and two of different nationalities aswell. Smarg and BotS then stand out. But the whole neighbour thing makes me uncertain whether she would be US scum.

West German Townie

18

bvoigt

- I don't think he's soviet and I don't think he's Soviet scum either.

US Scum

22

The Fonz

- He's on the right track

Polish townie

I have two Soviet scum even though there only is one spot left. (If any, but I think so) My heart tells me it's furcolow because he's been lying all the time and my brain says PeregrineV.

@Sathoris- Here, almost all your reads are setup based. It's supposed to be one tool. Can you supply any supporting evidence (links would be best, but even summaries of why helps)

in addition

to the setup answer.
Furcolow is the only one you mentioned because of his playstyle.

[PeregrineV]

15 bunnylover Che Guevara - Cuban Roleblocker.
3 RedCoyote John Glenn, US Odd-Night Vigilante.
20 LlamaFluff John F Kennedy, US Townie
23 hohum Harold Wilson, British Townie
16 Amrun Joseph McCarthy - US Blacklister
2 Debonair Danny DiPietro Edward R Murrow - US Townie

9 VP Baltar Ho Chi Minh - Vietnamese Soviet Mafia Goon
21 nachomma8 Josep Broz Tito - Yugoslavian Townie
17 gonnano Janos Kadar - Soviet Mafia Goon
12 XScorpion Leonid Brezhnev, Soviet Townie
5 Feysal Erich Honecker - Soviet Neighbour

14 Scott Brosius J Edgar Hoover - US Mafia Jailkeeper

7 LynchMePls Nikita Kruschev - Sovier Watcher
19 Stephoscope Andrei Gromyko - Soviet Mafia Rolecop

Full player/nationality claim list:

Americans:

ThAdmiral
Enigma

Other Free World:

Beasts of the Sea - French
Smargaret - West German

Soviets:

Bvoigt
Lowell
Furcolow
PeregrineV

Other Communist:

Myself - Polish
Sathoris - Albanian

11 US and 13 Soviet. One of the Soviets is lying.

Some of notes.
1)

enigma

didn't seem particularly scummy-- until his last "give up" post. When someone is about to die and all of a sudden has tons of 'obvreads' to share, that's a sign they were holding back. Which to me smells like scum. I'll lynch him if we need, but not right now.
2) I'm still not sold on the 12v12 mechanic. It would be nice if it is, but surely the mod considered massclaims would happen at some point so we shouldn't throw away reads b/c we think we have the setup figured out.
3) Among the american side, the scummiest are enigma and

ThAd

. I fear I have been blinded by flattery. All his "voting bloc" posts don't serve much purpose other than to solidify a group of friends. Also enigma, in his 'whoa is me' post, named ThAd as scum, seemingly out of nowhere. This looks like it could be last-minute distancing, and both could be US-aligned scum.
4) Among the soviet side,

pere

stands out the most. He's been heavy-handed (overly so) with his 12v12 theory, as well as the importance of determining the exact number of scum left. If there's a US hiding among the soviets, I think pere is the most likely and that he's trying shape the debate on his terms. Look back at how quickly the nationality debate has dominated discussion. Clearly some people have things to gain by focusing on this.

@Lowell- The mod is well covered- claims would not reveal anything. Look at the town names and mafia names- you can't tell what they would be by their name or thier real-life role. We're looking at setup and symmetry for clues.
Also,

[as well as the importance of determining the exact number of scum left.

Can you tell me why this is unimportant? It's almost the most important thing in the game. They all have to be dead for town to win.

[1] Each player represents one real-life figure from the 20th Century. Not all of them are dead, but not all of them are living.
[2] Each player has an alignment, a nationality, and a role.
[3] The town win condition is: "You win when all threats to peace have been killed"
[4] A possible mafia win condition is: "You win when only Soviet players remain alive or nothing can prevent this"

Also, please give your read on the remaining players below. Also, your opinions on 2 remaining US scum, 3 US +1 Soviet scum, or other scum totals is also appreciated.

1 Beasts of the Sea
4 Enigma
6 PeregrineV
8 ThAdmiral
10 Furcolow
11 Lowell
13 smargaret
18 bvoigt
22 The Fonz
24 Sathrois

[smargaret]

ThAd - weren't EGL and Bvoigt the other two who came off poorly in your VCA?

Fonz - Maybe "completely" is the wrong word, but you're certainly all over the place with your policy lynches - and that's what they are, if you're lynching Furc for lying about his role (which he does all.the.time) and me for setting up a 1-1 on false mod-provided role information. We're scum only until something better comes along.

[PeregrineV]

Enigma and The Fonz are partners. You heard it here first.

As The Fonz said, fuck it. If we want to leave a NK in play then so be it. But lynching Enigma is almost as good because it will confirm The Fonz as scum tomorrow.

Unvote
Vote: Enigma

Ok, what I'm seeing here is you "think" Fonz is scum, but your going to go ahead and agree with him?
And you also think he's lying about nationality? Along with Sathoris?

[PeregrineV]

I actually would like to take a closer look at ThAd. The only reason he's remained clear in my mind is DP's "role related information" which was a lie, wasn't it? :-/ I need to actually reread him and make sure that townread is warranted. Is that kind of stunt something DP would pull for a scumbuddy?

I'm also suspicious of Fonz. He's completely abandoned his "You must be scum because Feysal flipped town" and his "LAL => Lynch Furc" and those are starting to look like scum going for the easy mislynch dropped for lack of interest.

Other scum - Peregrine for reasons explained previously and one of EGL/Bvoigt. Others are town.

I'm having computer trouble and will be limited in my ability to post until it's resolved. I will post at least once per day.

For those of us nuts that read things better in a list:
smargaret reads:

1 Beasts of the Sea- US Town

4 Enigma- Possible US Scum

6 PeregrineV - Soviet scum

8 ThAdmiral - Possible US scum

10 Furcolow - Soviet Town
11 Lowell - Soviet Town

13 smargaret - US Town

18 bvoigt - Possible Soviet Scum

22 The Fonz - Possible Soviet Scum

24 Sathoris - Soviet Town

Is this correct, based on your quoted post? If so, I have some questions.

Are you of the 4 man scum team school of thought, or 3 man? Are they even (3-3, 4-4), or is one team have more or less members than the other?
If three man, please explain your reads for me/bvoigt/theFonz.
If four man, please explain who is the 4th US scum, and who is lying about thier nationality claim.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd - weren't EGL and Bvoigt the other two who came off poorly in your VCA?

They are, but you aren't voting either of them.

[The Fonz]

I'm not going to continue to support a wagon pushed by smargaret and Sathoris, along with Beasts, who despite saying Enigma is scum and I am his partner with unspecified 'ties' is quite happy to push the counterwagon.

You can quit with the melodramatics at any time, Fonz. I was on Enigma all day when it wasn't even a viable wagon. There were

no

viable wagons at the time (remember all the Feystalling, and the 'rainbow vote count' comments?). So, saying I'm pushing a counterwagon is not even close to true. In fact, you were the one that made PeregrineV the leading wagon when you joined before bailing.

Saying someone is your top suspect when the rest of the game are looking elsewhere, and then directly pushing the alternative wagon of two that are viable when other people are voting him, screams distancing to me. Saying you're not pushing a counterwagon just simply isn't true. If you're voting for someone who is the most likely player to get lynched in his stead, you're pushing a counterwagon.

I'm extremely confident that, if Enigma is scum, you are his partner. If Enigma is town, I think it's more likely to be Smargaret and Sathoris. The final American is in the Soviets either way, and the remaining Soviet is also very likely to be there. However, for all the scumminess of your recent behaviour, Smargaret is still the scummiest player in the game. Enigma is more likely to be American scum than Peregrine, I think but Smarg is more likely than either, so if Smarg has renewed viability, of course i'm going to go there.

I've made it abundantly clear that I am okay with either a Enigma or PeregrineV lynch today, but the question is really this: why wasn't anyone joining the Enigma-wagon earlier, when I was pushing it? It only began to garner votes once I switched.

Making it clear you're 'OK' with something and voting for it are different things.

@The Fonz- Beasts has to say that in order for his "3 american scum team + Peregrine" to make any sense. He knows your not scum.

Even if I

was

scum, how would I know that The Fonz is

not

scum? For all I could know, he might be on the rival scum team.

This, however, is a fair point.

Also, by the way, beasts: policy lynching IS scumhunting. It's probably its purest form. Saying 'X action almost always comes from scum, so lynch for it.'

But my whole point was you were neglected to do anything else for a long period of time. As I said here it seems you didn't even look at peripheral reads of people surrounding your policy lynches.

Peripheral reads? What do you mean? I was perfectly happy to comment on the other wagons and their relative merits, although I made clear Furcolow was my top read. I mean, in the post I voted Furc, I also said the following:

Other things: The way ThAd framed the him vs Amrun dilemma as 'My town sounding rolename' vs 'His scum sounding rolename' I don't like. Thinking maybe Kissinger is a safeclaim, or else a less obvious scum name (actually, not that un-obvious. His name, along with Nixon and LBJ, struck me as the most likely to be American scum if there was such a group). But since we don't actually know for sure there is an American scumgroup (it's not beyond the realms of possibility that there be, say, an American SK) and because his scumhunting on Day Two i felt was much better, he's not a priority.

Gonnano... meh. He certainly looked scummy early on, but a lot of the case against him seems to be 'too defensive.' And I FUCKING HATE the too defensive argument.

DP is scummy for all the obvious reasons. RedCoyote is someone I think might be good scum. The kind who has a good, town-sounding excuse for everything he does, but doesn't give me the sense he's really trying hard to find scum. A la Benmage in Simpsons mafia.

That is not tunneling on Furc to the exclusion of everything else. That is not using Furc as an excuse not to comment on other issues. And, fwiw, you know who are my best guess to be the last Soviet and the American hiding among the Soviet claims? Furc and Peregrine. Furc is most likely American with you/Enigma, Peregrine would make more sense as the partner in the Smarg/Sath setup.

The Fonz, I especially like how your confidence level on Enigma being scum ratchets up a notch the closer he got to being lynched and tried to make ties from him to me; especially considering you were so hesitant to consider voting him previously. Then, you jump ship as soon as votes start falling.

The ties from him to you were caused by your attempt to tie me to him, which is something that scum often attempt to do with partners under suspicion- it makes sure you've prepared the ground for the next mislynch if he does die- as well as the aforementioned fact that you were calling him scum whilst pushing the wagon most likely to beat out his and therefore cause his continued survival.

[Enigma]

There is a wagon on Me, Smarg and Penigriev.
And I don't want to particularly see any of those lynched .. well because I've clearly said who I think is scum and why the above aren't.

Sigh.... If need be, I'm willing to move my vote to contribute to a lynch ... preferably smarget though.

[Sotty7]

16th vote count of day 5

PeregrineV - 2 -

smargaret, Lowell

bvoigt - 1 -

Enigma

Enigma - 3 -

Furcolow, Sathoris, Beasts of the Sea

Beasts of the sea - 1 -

PeregrineV

smargaret - 3 -

ThAdmiral, The Fonz, bvoigt

Not voting - 0 -

No one

• With
  10
  players alive, it takes
  6
  to lynch
  
• Deadline for the end of day five is Wednesday 11th May @ 8am CST

[The Fonz]

Assuming Smarg and Enigma will vote each other for self preservation, this will come down to Lowell and Peregrine. Both need to vote the same way to get a lynch.

[ThAdmiral]

I have faith in them to stand up when we need them most.

[ThAdmiral]

For great justice.

[Enigma]

Unvote, Vote: smargaret