Open 304 - Hard Boiled, Game Over. Was DY's Dystopia saved?

[RedCoyote]

welp, I joined this game to be the tracker/vig and choose vig and be batman

didn't happen, fml. Going to be disinterested because this setup is lame other than vig >_>

Vote: chesskid3

Don't help the scum PR hunt, please.

[RedCoyote]

How am I helping the scum PR hunt?

Unvote

;

vote: chesskid3

Don't be dense, please.

Everyone who says on page 1 I'M not blahhhhhhhhhh is neccesarily not a PR and also not even the PR they claimed to not be?

It's one less possibility they must consider. Suppose the Hider, Hider Tracker, and Detective/Psychologist all die by D2. It's unlikely, but it's possible.

Then the scum know they don't need to worry about you, friend.

Softclaim/hardclaim/whateverclaim VT on page 1? Explain scum motivations or gtfo with your chesskid-is-scum read.

Well, it was anti-town and makes you more likely to be a VT. If we go through D1 by just getting a VT claim and lynching them, well, that's far from the worst scenario possible for the town. In other words, your stock has went down as a helpful player for this town thanks to your actions, so you're going to have to work harder than the rest of the people here to overpass them (at least in my eyes).

[RedCoyote]

You should've put "I'm kidding...

...or am I?

" at the bottom of the post.

[RedCoyote]

SSSS, are you going to actually stick around this game? Don't replace out.

do you see it as anti-town (but made by a townie) or scummy?

I'm not sure. I think it's worth a vote though. If it's a tactic, then we'll see what good it does him. Look, I've been very vocal about how I approach D1. Especially in games like this with lots of individual town-aligned power roles that benefit from secrecy, we're going to want to minimize outting true PRs at all costs. Because of that, now more than ever, people need to heed my D1 policies in that you resign to the fact that it's going to be unlikely we'll catch scum today. If you go in with those tapered but realistic expectations, then you can maximize efficiency further down the line. A scum lynch is great, and that's what you're always aiming for, but lynching scum should not be the only satisfactory result of D1. If you can make it out of D1 just lynching an anti-town VT who is causing more harm than good without outting anyone else, then you're still in great shape. I mean, that's the goal. It's not the best scenario, but if we strive for that, then we have better odds at succeeding in the long run.

In any case, chesskid fits those parameters at the moment.

[RedCoyote]

Then vote him.

[RedCoyote]

Anxious much? We have a

bit

of time before the DL. I think I'll vote when I'm good and ready. K, thanx.

You'd prefer to not be voting anyone then, hm?

Well....you seem to be asking a lot of dumb questions.

It seems like a valid question to me. Why so defensive?

[RedCoyote]

Don't discuss ongoing games

He's not being specific but...

Especially ones in which you have flipped and I haven't, tyvm.

If this is true, DK, you're being unfair.

can we all stfu about analyzing potential softclaims kthx?

You started it.

---

Cause I'm blonde and I just realized this game didn't have a Night 0 start.......and I got the detective psychologist confused.

Uh, if this had a N0 start, and you were a PR, you'd have submitted an action (I hope). You're digging yourself into a bigger hole, I think.

---

I don't understand this, I read you're thinking chess as town but at the same time you're voting him. Scum alarm activated.

What I'm saying is that he's straight less likely to be a PR. Because of that, as I said to SSSS, if we end up lynching a VT at the end of today with no other claims, that's not the worst scenario we can come across. I don't necessarily mean I think he's scum or not. Obviously I don't know either way.

Then in post #53 you're saying if it's better to hunt an anti town VT because it's D1 and all, I just can't understand the logiiiiiiiiiiiiiccccccccc

I'm not acting like a "hero", so let's get on the same foot here. I don't know where you got that idea. I'm just saying, to SSSS, that, especially in this game, night actions are so vital for the town.

Today it would be better to lynch a VT and not out any of our PRs than lynch a scum an out several of our PRs. Do you agree with that?

---

This guy is so non-genuine, it hurts. He doesn't even have a scumread yet

I agree with you.

---

I'm not one of those players that votes/invites/revotes like it is going out of style. When I place a vote, I like to think it means something, rather than "just cause".

I'm asking you whether or not you prefer to be voting nobody. You're dodging the question by anticipating my answer.

He has asked me 2 questions and both of them I felt to be dumb "I'm active but not really doing anything" questions.

So you wont answer him then?

---

i like the rc vote.

I don't. don, you won't let them get rid of me, will you?

---

Does anyone else other than CK, Newman and I find Deity's line of questioning and desire for strong evidence before he lays down a single read scummy?

Yes.

[RedCoyote]

Do I prefer to be voting for nobody? At this point, I am very comfortable not placing a vote at this time. Don't take hat to mean that I won't be voting however.

If someone asked you to vote, would you?

"duh, what hand raising"? In a word, no.

I hate to continue to press this, but this isn't the question I meant and I think you know that.

---

Amrun, was that last vote a mistake or are you giving us a little bit of a protest?

Everyone, regardless what you think about the Mod's voting rules, I ask that you please double check your votes before casting them and save all of your criticisms for post-game. Not trying to be Mr. Leader or anything, I just don't want us to dwell on this because it distracts us from the game itself.

[RedCoyote]

It's not 1989; it's 1986.

[RedCoyote]

He's trying to get others to vote, which seems like an attempt to get a wagon going without being the initiator.

Others implies that I asked more people than HN about his vote and implies a lack of attention to this game.

Back this up or retract it.

The hand raising thing was also pretty distracting and pointless.

I never mentioned "hand raising". This was HN and DK's thing.

Also seeing a town claim as a VT claim is just asking to get a policy wagon going when there was no reason for one.

This is a false, rushed summary like the one toffee made (indicative of your pattern of an overall rushed readthrough of the game). I respect SSSS' vote a lot more simply because he had the intellectual integrity to ask me to better define my political stance rather than just assume he knew what I was up to (and whether or not it was good or bad).

[RedCoyote]

One person, doesn't matter, you're pushing for the idea of it. We're all reading it, and if there's anything to it, you're counting on it.

I want HN to use his vote, yes. That vote is an important piece of information for us to analyze later in the game. If he's not going to use it, or is afraid to, then I want him to have to be put on the spotlight for that. Town shouldn't be afraid to use their vote. Scum, on the other hand, have to be much more careful and premeditate what consequences their vote will have on their game.

Now, I still read you as saying this, and I have no problems assuming what you are up to, to explain why I voted, and why I think it's bad or good. I don't know why you think that is a bad thing.

You may have to explain this to me again because you lost me. The point I'm making is that SSSS was more inquisitive about my strategy (as opposed to, say, you or toffee who just assumed I was scum trying to manipulate the town).

---

it is town job to find scum, not killing each other apart.

If your opinion is that I'm trying to lynch town, then you're incorrect. That's not my intention. My intention is to lynch scum. I just want everyone to understand that lynching a VT on D1 without any other claims, given this setup, is a satisfactory outcome.

Why should we be convinced w/ chesskid lynch in this case?

There's no chess "case". If I was wanting chess lynched right now, I'd be rallying y'all to the wagon. It's just a spot to keep my vote because I think, if the day ended right now, he'd be the one I'd most want lynched. I would not prefer him lynched right now (nor would I anyone).

---

so amrun, commit. aside from nameloc, who are your suspects?

This is solid.

---

I wants to join bandwagon
but i'z worried i'll look lke scum for it
so i'll throw 1-2 line thingy to explainz then everyonz thinks i towntowntown

Yeah, it's a very awkward shift in a very short time frame.

---

This is chess-town. Shame on me if I have been fooled.

Let's not go crazy. I like his offense, granted, but we still have a long way to go together.

---

Please explain now.

Vote - DeityKabuto

Okay, I like this. That chess statement DK made was just flat out spineless. I still don't think I've got a firm answer as to why he got on chess' case earlier, and I shudder to think it's from an ongoing game that chess hasn't flipped in yet. That's just silly.

If asked to vote I will evaluate whether or not I agreement that said person is scum or not. If I agree I will vote. Why is this such a big question for you?

Because if someone is going to be protective of their vote, especially if they're active otherwise, then I want them to have to defend their non-voting. See my comments to Surye above if you want more elaboration.

In any case, I'm happy with your vote, and think I'll join you.

Unvote

;

vote: DeityKabuto

I also want to say that I'm happy Surye is getting pressure from DH. Good stuff.

---

I admit I effed up, but not as scum. I thought they were referring to me with the whole softclaiming business, and I had a blonde moment and just got my game mechanics mixed up. In my defense, the last open game I played (SSSS was the mod), we had a Night 0 start. I forgot this game didn't. I wasn't saying I was softclaiming, I was saying I thought they thought I was softclaiming.

This is almost pure gut talking, but I just get a feeling this is too convoluted to be a scum explanation. It sounds like nameloc is just truly trying to explain himself here.

nameloc, just to make sure we're all on the same page, could you give us that link to that Open game you're talking about (if it's finished)?

---

Sorry, but that would defeat my purpose of placing a vote on him.

This is just silly. In other words, you can't explain your vote.

[RedCoyote]

@RedCoyote

I will explain my vote, but if I did it now, than nameloc would have it way much easier.

Sorry, I call BS. Even if you did have an explanation, I don't suspect it will be good enough to justify all the heat it's bringing on you. Not for a D1 wagon.

---

So, does anyone want to lynch toffee for being the common denominator?

I would not be sad to lose toffee, no. I'm absolutely game.

You know, we're talking about toffee now. I know you'd like to take the attention away from her, but no.

It would definitely be a trip if both of these folks ended up being scum, wouldn't it?

Unvote

;

vote: toffee

---

Deity's style of play I referred was his odd style in questioning people. While his votes history were quite alarming so far, I want to find out his true opinion 'bout all of his scumread and making sure if he's not just following the crowd.

Could you just state for us, very clearly, whether or not you think DK is scummy? There's no reason we should have to go through all this filler unless you're giving yourself leverage to backtrack. Do you understand?

[RedCoyote]

Claim: Vanilla Townie

Did you think this was going to help move the toffee wagon along or something?

Unvote

;

vote: DeityKabuto

---

Mod

, may we please have a VC?

[RedCoyote]

Well, look, I'm not arrogant enough to believe that we caught all three scum in ten pages. The scum are all goons though, why would DK (I'm assuming this is who you are referring to) sacrifice himself? I don't see either player as more/less effective than the other. Do you?

[RedCoyote]

I don't like how Amrun, RedCoyote, Newman, and Newman's scumhunting buddy are all leading this toffee case, it's like they seriously want

an innocent townie lynch

.

(emphasis added)

...and you know toffee is "an innocent townie" how?

[RedCoyote]

........................................DEAR GOD THIS DK WAGON IS SCUM INFESTED

By whom?

WHEN ALL SCUM ARE GOONS?

ARE YOU PEOPLE CRAZY?

We don't need a claimfest (although I'm sure you'd love that).

Why is DK a bad lynch (in before "because he's obvtown")?

---

ummm.... I think that was a DK lynch. would be really awesome if the mod came in here right about now to verify.

If it was, then Amrun needs to be held properly accountable.

and chess. you act as if the day is already over (post 191) when the wagon starts on toffee, without voting toffee. Now you're upset that the wagon swung back to DK. all without joining either case. you're more focused on night actions than trying to lynch someone. how come? the claim isn't the main point against DK (at least for me), I've had a scummy feeling about DK most of the game.

Great point.

---

DAT SOFTCLAIM

Flip flop much?

---

Seriously, that rule needs to die. It's frustrating, because it's creating non-truthful wagons in votecounts.

Look, it's a win-win for town. Either the lynch goes through, or we get some great reactions out of it. I have faith the Mod will sort this all out (although I'm starting to become concerned about his absence).

---

I am tired of the system, and how there are multiple scum on my wagon who will make sure that I get lynched.

Who are they? I know you think HN, but is that it?

---

and you fucks have the balls to tell me there werent's scum capitalizing on the no vote counts at the end?

Oh, undoubtedly. If DK is town, then we'll have great info for later in this game. Quit being such a downer.

---

Because at this point, I really don't care anymore.

Mafia is a team game, DK. There's no reason to be bitter.

---

Guys, if that was the hammer, I apologize.

I really did not intend to end the day.

Hence why I requested more votecounts at least once or twice.

I don't like how excusatory this is. You knew there were a lot of votes; you knew better than to throw a vote down if you didn't mean it. If you were town, I'd expect you to be more confident and defensive of your actions here.

[RedCoyote]

I PM'd the Mod. He was just online Monday according to his profile, so he should be coming back soon...

[RedCoyote]

Wait... scum killed chesskid?

I'm actually going to guess the Vig shot chess. Either way it seems kind of silly. Surye had already claimed, so the scum probably wanted to take him out. I mean, I guess it could've gone either way.

---

i would argue against the claim, but with the hider dead, hider tracker is confirmed town, no? although i still think it may be wise for ht to lay low unless they have a scum result. what does everyone think?

What we should do is have the Hider Tracker voting their scum result (if they have one) and trying to get their lynch through going that route first. If the Hider Tracker can successfully get a lynch through without claiming, then they can claim tomorrow and the town will be in a much better position.

---

And I have no idea where this case on my player slot came from, but I'm willing to bet it's a steaming pile of crap.

That you're not willing to recognize that there were reasonable issues with nameloc's play yesterday is already a bad sign. Had I replaced into this slot, I would probably not open with the sweeping (and false) generalization that those who had issues with nameloc yesterday were full of crap. There were real, substantial issues with some of the things he said.

[RC's] posts are largely fluff

I don't think that word means what you think it means. I don't have the luxury of posting often enough to make fluff posts, so at the very outset here we're having a real disconnect in interpreting this game. I mean, if you'd care to elaborate what exactly you think I'm saying that would constitute as fluff, then perhaps we can argue a bit.

---

He suspected Surye most, but also Scott Brosius and toffee.

Scott Brosius has been wholly unimpressive, but CK was really the only one to express suspicion.

This might be a good idea to persue if we were sure chess was the scumkill, but honestly I just cannot say that with certainty.

---

Knew the number of votes at that time. I'm not buying the hammer.

Pretty much every wagon having >3 players on it includes you.

Yeah, this is a major issue I'm having with Amrun. I don't see how she can offset these two positions here. It's almost like she threw that vote count request in there just so she could later say that she was trying to get the Mod to come back. I can totally see that. It's basically a free townie lynch for her.

---

At that point, the last vote count was closer. OUR MOD FLAKED. WE HAD NO VOTE COUNT FOR LIKE 2 WEEKS.

Yeah, but you recognized this issue on the very post where you hammered. That's what makes this all so hard to justify for you. Sticking by your hammer would've been fine, even apologizing for the hammer might have been fine, but this post really puts you over the top, I think. Now you're just blaming the Mod for the lynch, and that's not going to cut it for me, babe.

Vote: Amrun

---

I think Amrun really didn't know it was the hammer, but I do not believe for a second that she didn't want DK lynched.

Actually, Amrun needs to die one way or the other.

This does not compute. Is she town or isn't she?

[RedCoyote]

I didn't know it was the hammer.

Even if I concede this (because I think you did know, but let's leave that aside for argument's sake), you still have to justify why, in the same post, you're complaining about the lack of a Mod presence (which was of course accurate, but that's beside the point). As Scott pointed out, you even go a step further and complain about the lack of vote counts way before your hammer. Back when you voted toffee. So, I mean, you're going to sit there and tell me that in the three posts prior to your vote, there were two votes on a growing DK wagon that you knew about, coupled with you knowing that the Mod wasn't around and wasn't giving frequent VCs, that after all this, you're still going to try and pass off the blame on the Mod for the lynch? That's what gets me.

What about toffee? Didn't you suspect him?

I do, and I think she would be a good alternative lynch for the awkward way she joined the DK wagon.

---

Do you want me to go through every one of your posts and dissect why I think there's little to no relevant content?

I'd rather not because I can already tell you're not being very fair. The example you've given is pertinent to this game. It speaks to your intellectual honesty (or lack thereof) that you are coming into this game effectively telling those (which is quite a few of us) that suspected nameloc yesterday to be full of crap. Above that, your hyperbolic claims ("Nothing you posted resembled scumhunting. Literally not one thing.") speak to this as well.

Now you take all this, look at something like this,

Where's the inconsistency? I don't think she's town. I also don't believe she knew she was the hammer when she hammered DK.

and you maybe have a little something to work with. Maybe you do believe this, but maybe you're trying to appease the Amrun wagon while simultaneously causing some misdirection by voting me and drumming up a new offense on me based on an old argument. I could conceivably see some Amrun - Muffin pairing here.

[RedCoyote]

Damnit, Scott. We could've got her lynched without you coming out.

I can go with Muffin-Amrun-don though. For sure.

More later.

[RedCoyote]

Amrun, you devious little minx! No one believes you're a Vig!

[RedCoyote]

Oh, Amrun. Are you really the Vig? I thought for sure you were just trying to get the Vig to come out.

[RedCoyote]

You asked a lot of questions yesterday (to appear like you were scum hunting), but did nothing with the answers (essentially meaning the questions you asked were useless).

No, this is just flat wrong. My questions helped me assess HN's alignment. Here is an example:

This eventually led to this.

Because if someone is going to be protective of their vote, especially if they're active otherwise, then I want them to have to defend their non-voting. See my comments to Surye above if you want more elaboration.

In any case, I'm happy with your vote, and think I'll join you.

Most of my other questions were rhetorical, and obviously so. It's unfair of you to say my questions led nowhere. They led me to my vote. They led me from HN as scum, to town, and now back scum again. You can't discount that, Muffin.

You thought CK was anti-town, but you weren't sure whether he was scummy.

Just like toffee and just like the other person that did this, HN I think, you're taking a complex political issue and trying to shoehorn it into some talking point against me. This was absolutely not the case. Since you're not interested in dissecting the issue (nor am I interested in really fleshing it out for a third time), we'll cut to the part where I say chess was both scummy and anti-town.

You didn't have any better suspicions than CK, who you admitted there was no case on.

Nope. I voted both toffee and DK (which is where my vote actually ended up) yesterday. I didn't have a "case" on chess because, when I made that comment, I did not want chess lynched. I wanted more discussion.

Then you switched over to DK->toffee->DK with almost no reason given except that you agreed with someone else or liked the wagon.

No, I argued with both DK and toffee a number of times:

Spoiler:

I don't understand this, I read you're thinking chess as town but at the same time you're voting him. Scum alarm activated.

What I'm saying is that he's straight less likely to be a PR. Because of that, as I said to SSSS, if we end up lynching a VT at the end of today with no other claims, that's not the worst scenario we can come across. I don't necessarily mean I think he's scum or not. Obviously I don't know either way.

Then in post #53 you're saying if it's better to hunt an anti town VT because it's D1 and all, I just can't understand the logiiiiiiiiiiiiiccccccccc

I'm not acting like a "hero", so let's get on the same foot here. I don't know where you got that idea. I'm just saying, to SSSS, that, especially in this game, night actions are so vital for the town.

Today it would be better to lynch a VT and not out any of our PRs than lynch a scum an out several of our PRs. Do you agree with that?

it is town job to find scum, not killing each other apart.

If your opinion is that I'm trying to lynch town, then you're incorrect. That's not my intention. My intention is to lynch scum. I just want everyone to understand that lynching a VT on D1 without any other claims, given this setup, is a satisfactory outcome.

Why should we be convinced w/ chesskid lynch in this case?

There's no chess "case". If I was wanting chess lynched right now, I'd be rallying y'all to the wagon. It's just a spot to keep my vote because I think, if the day ended right now, he'd be the one I'd most want lynched. I would not prefer him lynched right now (nor would I anyone).

Sorry, but that would defeat my purpose of placing a vote on him.

This is just silly. In other words, you can't explain your vote.

@RedCoyote

I will explain my vote, but if I did it now, than nameloc would have it way much easier.

Sorry, I call BS. Even if you did have an explanation, I don't suspect it will be good enough to justify all the heat it's bringing on you. Not for a D1 wagon.

Deity's style of play I referred was his odd style in questioning people. While his votes history were quite alarming so far, I want to find out his true opinion 'bout all of his scumread and making sure if he's not just following the crowd.

Could you just state for us, very clearly, whether or not you think DK is scummy? There's no reason we should have to go through all this filler unless you're giving yourself leverage to backtrack. Do you understand?

Claim: Vanilla Townie

Did you think this was going to help move the toffee wagon along or something?

Unvote

;

vote: DeityKabuto

I don't like how Amrun, RedCoyote, Newman, and Newman's scumhunting buddy are all leading this toffee case, it's like they seriously want

an innocent townie lynch

.

(emphasis added)

...and you know toffee is "an innocent townie" how?

I am tired of the system, and how there are multiple scum on my wagon who will make sure that I get lynched.

Who are they? I know you think HN, but is that it?

All of these comments are of my own intuition. I bounced things off of my townreads, like I'd expect any player to do in any game, by showing support for what I believe to be the correct and opposition to what I don't, but to marginalize my own individual input in this game is unfair.

Do you think I'm scummy or do you not think I'm scummy for doing what I did after replacing in?

I wasn't asking you to validate your question in any other way than this.

If it's not going to help you determine my alignment, then there was no reason to mention it.

I don't understand. I need to ask questions and give input in this game so that you can read me. I need you to do the same so I can read you. This isn't some battle over who can find scum by using the least amount of words.

Well, if Amrun is actually a Vig. Then the scumteam is going to include you or HN. Given HN's hammer, I suspect he'll be more likely to be scum than you. At the time, I would've said yes, but if Amrun is telling the truth, then no. The scumteam is probably don, HN, and toffee.

What Amrun wagon? There were no votes on Amrun before I posted today. Before you posted, there was a single vote on her. What wagon was there to appease?

I think you know what point I'm making, but you're trying to slight me over some technicality. By "wagon", of course I mean those who have announced their dislike and intent to potentially vote Amrun, not literally those who only are voting her at that given time.

---

but you wanting chess lynched while him being Vig was still a BIG doubt back then, still seems odd to me.

Rephrase this if you want me to address it.

---

Now regarding the Amrun stuff. I was poised to pounce on her with the inconsistencies in her "okay with a DK lynch", "oops sorry guys" posts. Then, the HT comes out and Amrun claims VIG. Fucking ridiculous. Not so much the HT (although it wasn't needed at that point), but Amrun!!! If you are the vig, then you just cost us our NK. Good job.

Yeah, these are fake emotions.

---

- His vote on Amrun was his first somewhat-justified vote this game. Literally. He hasn't justified any of his other votes at all. You don't think there's any deeper meaning behind this?

Every vote has been justified. I have explained every vote before I moved it.

Even if you don't want to read deeply into this (because it's very easy to interpret this as RC knowing what DK is going to flip), you can at least see that he had every intention of voting Amrun today if DK flipped town.

Yeah, because I probably was. Amrun had moved up my scumlist after she apologized for hammering. I'm not trying to hide that position at all.

---

Unvote

;

vote: don_johnson

(will also gladly support a toffee or HN lynch today, but don gets preference because he's the slickest of the three)

Scumteam of toffee-HN-don if Amrun is the Vig. I changed my view of Muffin because I felt pretty confident that Amrun wasn't the Vig, but after reading the things she's said a little more closely, it seems to be the case that she is. I just found it really difficult to believe that she'd shoot either chess or Surye, but, given that she's in 50 games (or thereabouts), I could understand her perhaps making an oversight in one of them.

Muffin, I hope you realize that the only reason don is patting you on the back and warming up to you is because he's scum. Trust me, man, I've played with this cat a number of times. He's know how to operate.

[RedCoyote]

Don't lynch me yet, Muffin. I have responses for you. We have a lot to talk about.

Quick answer to your last question of why don over toffee is because don is slicker than toffee is. I'd prefer to get rid of him now. toffee is more prone to slipping up tomorrow, I think.

I just can't stick around and write a big post right now.

[RedCoyote]

Given HN's hammer

This is incorrect. It's important that I acknowledge it because this is a big deal. This was my mistake, I went back and looked at farside's last vote count and just went off that. That vote count is actually out of order. HN was on this wagon much earlier than the hammer. Still, if I had to pick between Muffin and HN for scum, I'd lean toward HN. I had more issues with him than I did with nameloc/Muffin.

---

What was the purpose in asking so many "rhetorical" questions?

How do you define "so many"? I mean, I don't understand your aversion to my style here and how this is anything more than just dislike of how I scumhunt. Rhetorical questions are used to make a point. Let me give you an example.

...and you know toffee is "an innocent townie" how?

Obviously DK doesn't know toffee is an innocent townie if he's a townie himself. I was just expanding on why I liked my vote here. I mean, I'm not going to sit here and count which questions are rhetorical and which aren't because I don't think there's anything egregious here. I'm trying to put myself in your shoes (and this is what led me to the allegation of you being unfair), and I just don't see anything I'm doing that's steering the game off course. The only thing that may be arguable is the questions I had for HN, but I just addressed that.

I may have been wrong that not all of your questions were useless, but you linking me to one instance where you asked a question and then used someone's response in some way doesn't really change the overall situation here.

But that's not just one question, you understand. That's a series of questions I asked him over the course of multiple posts and several pages. They all built up to a specific read of HN. Now, I mean, maybe you're better at reading people than I am (which is entirely possible given that my scumhunting abilities aren't anything particularly wonderful), but, you know, that's fortunate for you. I am not as adept at picking up on people unless I get them to engage me in different ways. Of course I work with stuff from other conversations they have with others, but I have my own input as well.

I don't really have an issue with this alone, except for the fact that you neglect to really mention any further suspicion of anyone whatsoever until your #169, where you tell us that if the day were to end right now, you'd want CK lynched (which indicates you haven't got a better scum read on anyone in the 168 posts prior to this).

Well, I disagree. In post 121 I start to open up towards the idea of DK as scum (thanks to chess, no less). I also pressured chess a little bit for being hypocritical in regards to discussing PRs. This post is also where I started having issues with nameloc's weird start to this game. I respond to toffee and I start readying myself for an inevitable argument with Surye (who I think is losing an argument to DH).

I mean, if you want, I can elaborate on everyone of my posts in the context of "mentioning suspicion" of people. It's funny you attack me in this way (I mentioned this earlier, but I just wanted to bring this point up again), because, if anything, people usually get on me for being too harsh or having too sharp of an edge. I'm a brass tacks kind of guy for the most part, maybe my rhetoric can get bloated, but that's usually because I don't get to post throughout the day. I have to kind of cram a lot of activity into one or two posts.

Anyways, we're digressing now, but the point is that I would disagree that I'm not actively working on my suspicions at all times.

#121 was not an argument with toffee, but I'll acknowledge you did have a conversation with him. #169 was the first time you could be said to have "argued" with either of them, but even then I disagree that you did it here, either (and this was where you voted DK). Actually I don't really see any arguments outside of #198, in which you called bullshit on something DK did and asked toffee to state clearly whether he thought DK was scummy (which is kind of ironic).

Well, "argue", "engage", "debate", whatever word you want to use, the point is that I was actively talking to these people and considering their alignments. I'm not going to beleaguer the point though. You either believe me or you don't.

Your first DK vote was just you agreeing with Newman - I suppose this was somewhat justified in that you were sheeping here. Your move to toffee had no real reason (other than it's possible DK+toffee are scum together). Your second move to DK was because of his vanilla claim - while that was anti-town of him, you never really told us why you think it was scummy.

No, see, you're going to have to work with me some, Muffin. When I voted DK the first time, you can look a little bit further up for more in depth reasoning as to why I thought he was the better place to put my vote:

• That chess statement DK made was just flat out spineless. I still don't think I've got a firm answer as to why he got on chess' case earlier, and I shudder to think it's from an ongoing game that chess hasn't flipped in yet. That's just silly.

My toffee vote, admittedly, is a little more subtle, but it nonetheless had rationale behind it. It stemmed from this:

• So, does anyone want to lynch toffee for being the common denominator?

There was a wagon growing on toffee (DH and Scott were both on the wagon, both of whom I liked as townies), plus I had already gotten a bad vibe from the way she criticized my vote of chess (which I said was unlike the way SSSS did, where it seemed more townish).

And, yes, my last DK vote was almost wholly because of his claim. It was just a cherry on the top that he was scummy sounding to begin with. At that point, though, it didn't matter whether he was scummy or not. The claim trumped anything else, especially in this kind of a setup. Perhaps you disagree with that (and I wouldn't be surprised given that most mafia players have an inflated sense of their own abilities to successfully hunt scum on D1), but I'll live and die by the policy of preserving the integrity of the town's PR claims above all else on D1.

Seeing as you've outright neglected to mention smash, should I assume you have a town read on him and you're therefore not even considering the possibility he is scum?

Oh, it's possible, but, like you deduced, I have a fairly strong townread on him right now.

But I should trust that you're not doing the same thing, right?

Who, little ol' me? Why, I'd never do anything to trick you. Perish the thought.

I'm not voting don today unless you find a better reason than him being slick and possibly buddying me.

You're a very literal guy, you know that? No, but this is actually pretty reasonable of you. Of course I don't expect you to just accept that he's scum because I told you so. My head is working a mile a minute trying to rethink this game over again. I would tell you though, since you seem interested, to look back over don's little vote jumping today from me to Amrun and back again. That's just him trying to assess which "town faction", for lack of a better term, will get him the quickest mislynch. He thought that Amrun might actually get it for a second.

He's virtually guaranteed to be scum at this point. He's the one common denominator in almost everyone suspicions.

If it's not a RC lynch today, it's a toffee lynch.

Does not compute.

But I agree with the point that toffee would probably be an easier lynch to coalesce around. It will just keep the scumteam a little bit stronger going into tomorrow is all, but I understand I'm speaking from a position of being, in your eyes, the more likely scum candidate than don is. Honestly I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek with you when I said don was slicker than toffee. I didn't mean that in the sense that those should be valid grounds with which

you

would cast a vote against him for. I was answering more along the lines of why

I

was voting don over toffee, not why you should (although you're welcome to take my word for it).

[RedCoyote]

The major issue I have with your play (that you still haven't addressed in a way that I think is adequate) is the lack of reads from you in this game.

Did I mention you were a very literal person, Muffin? Heh, just want to throw that out there again. I don't know what you want me to say here. My reads are pretty apparent to me: I didn't like DK, toffee, chess, Surye (pre-claim), and then Amrun at the very end of the day, and I liked SSSS, DH, and HN. I mean, if me voting DK, toffee, and chess doesn't tell you that I suspected them, if me literally saying things like I agree with DH's DK suspicions, SSSS is making solid posts, I like HN's pressuring DK, and that I like DH's pressuring of Surye, then I don't know what else would've done the trick. I mean, if I thought HN or DH were scum at that point, I wouldn't be giving them props and agree with the things they say.

Then again, I guess I can't match great townie posts like the ones don gives (this is sarcasm).

And I know you know this, because you asked toffee to give a

clear

read on DK. But you never gave clear reads of your own.

That's a whole different situation altogether. toffee constantly referred back to DK's meta that none of us knew about. I never used meta to form my reads. I mean, none of my reads are unclear.

Also, your questioning of players in the game fits the bill of scum not wanting to properly engage anyone, but still wanting to appear to be scum hunting (essentially coasting).

Who did I not engage? Or "properly" engage?

Why didn't you mention this town read before now?

For one, I already said multiple times that I liked SSSS's posts and his questions. Two, I mean, it's just common sense. If I don't think he's in the scumteam... You're acting as though I'm trying to hide these things from everyone. I'm not hiding anything. If I suspected SSSS more than someone else, I'd be after him. Three, he's not posting, so there's not exactly any room for updating anything either. I don't have a reason to bring him up unless the discussion happens to refer back to him.

The problem here is, if you're town, it's your job to convince the rest of us to vote with you.

I went back and looked at this, and you specifically asked me why

I

was voting for don. I gave you an answer.

I know I have to convince others to vote with me; this isn't my first rodeo. You're being unfair though in asking me why I'm voting don over toffee and expecting me to answer with why you should.

Also, pushing a toffee lynch while trying to convince Amrun (who I'm just going to assume is the vig now) that you're town and don is scum would be the smarter option today.

I've been thinking this over, and I think we're having trouble putting ourselves in the other player's shoes. From your perspective, you don't have a townread on me or SSSS, but, from my perspective, I have a townread on you

and

SSSS, which just intuitively has me working based off of that.

I need to take your hesistations into account. Although it would be better from my point of view to have don gone, I understand why you're not going to be able to see me eye to eye on that.

Unvote

;

vote: toffee

---

That is why I said it was dumb for you to claim needlessly.

She was going to be lynched. Remember Scott came out?

---

plus, he implied he would not be open to lynching anyone but amrun. i made the point that amrun would get vig'd tonight if he was lying. once brosius acknowledged that i went back to my NUMBER ONE SUSPECT.

You didn't need to move your vote to Amrun to accomplish this. You only did it so that you (hopefully) could get Amrun quicklynch'd before anyone caught on.

Unfortunately, none of your scumbuddies got online when you voted Amrun, so you quickly hopped back to me, realizing you couldn't get the mislynch. I know your game, big don.

---

I won't be shooting red.

<3

---

uh, what did he notice about me? are you referring to his giant OMGUS vote? you know, the one he laid down after doing absolutely nothing for the entire game?

You accusing me of not having done anything the entire game? Muffin may have some reasonable questions and honest misunderstandings about the way I played this game, but you did nothing, man. You threw a couple of lazy votes on DK and lurked until the day was over.

---

seriously dude, i'll lynch anyone over me today out of that scummy pool, but i would prefer to lynch RC.

Prove it. Vote toffee.

vote don because he's the slickest of the three.

I said I'd be just as happy with a toffee vote OR an HN vote. The only reason I'd rather have you gone is because I know you'd be a tougher sell to lynch later in this game.

why would i unvote you? if you are the vig and i am scum, then i can only be scum with sss and rc. if not, then my third(or both) partner(s) are off the wagon. which means all they need to do is come in and hammer the fucking vig.

Not when your partners are dead fish like toffee and as inactive as HN. Hell, SSSS almost unvoted before you did. You preemptively jumped off because you knew the wagon was going to fall apart later once the rest of the players voting Amrun saw her claim.

i also unvote

immediately

after brosius concedes my point. please explain how any of that benefits scumdon?

Well, duh, because you knew Scott was getting off the Amrun wagon.

---

This actually is a good point. If don's buddy was off-wagon and Amrun is really vig, he had no reason to unvote (mislynch vig = game over). Which means if don is scum, his partners need to be on the wagon.

Also believe his explanation.

Nope, read above. You forgetting to factor time into this equation. don unvoted simply because his partners were not online and because the Amrun wagon was about to collapse.

[RedCoyote]

I don't think you really engaged anyone.

No. There are several reasons this makes no sense to me, and the biggest reason why is that he didn't need to unvote, he could have just feigned inactivity until someone else unvoted her.

It doesn't matter. It's a win-win for him at that point. Either he gets Amrun lynch or he'll get me lynched. At that point he thought he had Amrun in his pocket and that she'd be willing to jump on my wagon.

[RedCoyote]

Either you're underestimating how calculating don is, or I'm overestimating him.

Hmmm... maybe SSSS isn't town then?

[RedCoyote]

if i am scum, who are my partners? toffee and newman? smasbro? seriously dude, i'll lynch anyone over me today out of that scummy pool, but i would prefer to lynch RC. i have no issue whatsoever taking a bullet tonight if we get a scum lynch.

unvote, vote: redcoyote

Yeah, I figured you'd backtrack from your word, scum.

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, SSSS, I don't get why you didn't hammer just now. Is there something specific you are waiting for?

[RedCoyote]

I'm kind of pissed off at myself because I should've known better than to vote don a couple days ago. There really is no sense trying for anyone's lynch besides toffee here since the scum team has thrown her overboard (understandably) and the town knows she's scum.

SSSS, as scum, it doesn't make sense for him to not hammer toffee here. Wouldn't he have known he was just going to get more flak for not doing it? Maybe I'm trying to out WIFOM myself, but I'm pretty sure toffee and HN are scum, but now I'm really torn on the third. I want to say don because I know he backed off from his word, saying that he'd be absolutely willing to lynch toffee and then hesitating to do so while he kept trying to sell everyone on my wagon, but I also don't like how SSSS is acting like toffee isn't the most practical lynch here.

Ugh, I just keep thinking about D3. It's going to be a hell of a lot of walls.

[RedCoyote]

Eh, honestly, I'm kind of backtracking here. Muffin made some good points against SSSS here. Take a look at some of the vote counts:

Votecount:

smashbro_of_the_SSS [0] -
toffee [1] - Scott Brosius
don_johnson [0] -
DemonHybrid [0]
Surye [1] - chesskid3
RedCoyote [1] -
chesskid3 [0] -
Amrun [0] -
Scott Brosius [0] -
nameloc1986 [0] - Surye
DeityKabuto [7) - nameloc1986, toffee, RedCoyote, DemonHybrid, Amrun, don_johnson, Newman
HellloooNewman [1] - DeityKabuto,

not voting: smashbro_of_the_SSS

As already pointed out by Muffin, are we really going to get all three scum on the DK wagon here? That sounds kind of unlikely. It's possible, but, you have to admit it's a strike against SSSS at the very least.

Day Two, Votecount the Second

toffee (1): Amrun
Amrun (3): Scott Brosius, RedCoyote, Smashbro_of_the_SSS
RedCoyote (3): zMuffinMan, toffee, HellloooNewman
Not Voting (1): don_johnson

Muffin said this makes me look a little better, but I actually think it makes Muffin look much better. I doubt very sincerely that Muffin, toffee, and HN were all three voting in unison if they were a scumteam. I don't know if I've ever seen that happen with a three person scumteam.

Day Two, Votecount the Third

don_johnson (1): Amrun
Amrun (1): Scott Brosius
RedCoyote (4): toffee, HellloooNewman, don_johnson, zMuffinMan
toffee (1): RedCoyote
Not Voting (1): Smashbro_of_the_SSS

The same thing goes with don here. Objectively I look at this and I'm asking myself if I honestly believe don was trying to just tag along that obviously. I don't really think so. Sure, SSSS had the opportunity to hammer me here, but he may not have done it because he knew that Amrun was still around and he may have been picked up for this rather easily.

Day Two, Votecount the Fifth

A lynch has been reached.

Amrun (1): Scott Brosius
RedCoyote (1): toffee

toffee (5): RedCoyote, Amrun, zMuffinMan, don_johnson, HellloooNewman

don_johnson (1): Smashbro_of_the_SSS

It's possible that both scum made their way to toffee's wagon here. As I said earlier, it was looking more and more like the scum were ready to ditch toffee. In general though, it's not great practice to do this.

---

Here is what toffee has had to say about SSSS:

That's right, nothing. She never mentioned him in the enitre game that I can tell. The only time she even acknowledged he was in the game is when she quoted some question he asked about her take on the night flips. She answered him briefly, but never discussed what she felt about him, how she saw him, or how she didn't see him. She seemed completely focused on me. Isn't that odd?

Here is what HN has had to say about SSSS:

3- I've had little conflict with Amrun, Smashbro, Surye, Toffee, ChessKid...are we all scum? That's a pretty big scum squad.

This is a small blurb in response to DK. Strange that SSSS is the only player on there who hasn't flipped, but, actually, this points me more toward Muffin and don than it does SSSS. That being said, he's not addressing SSSS here or talking about his position on him. This is in response to DK.

RC? Maybe SSSS isn't town? Flip flopping your entire stance is a bit drastic wouldn't you say?

Again, this is just a response (an attack really) lobbed at me. This isn't really addressing SSSS or talking about his read on him at all.

I think we have this thing nailed here. RC, toffee and either SSSS or Don.

This is the

only

time that toffee or HN ever mention SSSS in regards to having a read on him. And, honestly, this isn't even really a read. I mean, the only person he doesn't mention here is Muffin. All he's doing here is eliminating Muffin as a suspect, so, honestly, it says more about Muffin than it does about any of the other players here.

---

There are a couple of points that lean toward don or Muffin, but, taken as a whole, SSSS looks like the most logical choice for our lynch today.

Vote: smashbro_of_the_SSS

[RedCoyote]

Thanks so much to DY for taking over modding duties. I did notice the Office Space theme and enjoyed it. You should consider doing a full fledged Office Space theme someday!

A real good job was done by Muffin here, I think. If Muffin didn't slap me around I probably wouldn't have really paid much attention to the game to see the inconsistencies in between SSSS and his partners, and, hell, I may have even caved in to a nameloc lynch on D2 (even though I already suspected that slot was town). Amrun also did really well aside from one mistake. It was a serious mistake, but she made up for it in spades. All the townies did relatively well though, I think. Surye claimed too quickly, but he ended up screwing up his own ability regardless. Sorry for coming at you too hard don. I'm still really bitter about Hack Poetry, honestly. I really want to nab you as scum. Luckily clearer heads prevailed and I was able to abandon my SSSS townread at the right time for all three of us to see eye-to-eye.

Speaking of, I think the scumteam would've actually had done better if they were around more to influence us. This is one of those rare circumstances where lurking actually hurt the scumteam. Especially in the case of toffee and SSSS. SSSS tried to pick it up a little bit in the face of don, but by the time he started picking it up me, don, and Muffin all really started to notice the connection between SSSS and the scumteam. This and SSSS' failure to hammer toffee (although I completely understand why he didn't want to) really ended up hurting him. The game just broke kind of strangely.

I fully agree that there should be another VT though. Anyways, gg everyone!

[RedCoyote]

Actually, it looks like there was already an Office Space mafia

I like this better though.