After he voted me, everyone else in the game posted.
I was not quicklynched.
That means that either he is scum, or I am scum. Period. There is no other possibility.
Vote:Matermate
I'm trying really hard not to believe this line of reasoning is true. The question here is whether Yos or Cayke made this post, because I *know* Yos has played in enough games at this point to know that there have been plenty of instances where scum failed to capitalize on a potential quicklynch, and that it's suboptimal to rush into lynching that person the next day. On the other hand, re: PC, I'm having a hard time coming to grips with the possibility of a scum jailkeeper. My argument yesterday was predicated on the conclusion that YosCayke was a roleblocker, but Balam's confirmed town death confirms that they are indeed a jailkeeper. The only thing I am left to question at this point is why the scum killed Balam and left YosCayke alive, since YosCayke's ability is a huge danger to the scum at night. Still, I see two possibilities:
1) Scum roleblocked YosCayke and killed Balam because they were afraid their roleblocker would be found out by Balam.
2) YosCayke is a scum jailkeeper and there is no other roleblocker, they blocked Balam yesterday and killed DaSpot, and then killed Balam last night.
I think #1 is far more likely than #2, but that conclusion is predicated on the assumption that it was Cayke that just voted me.
They're both scum, but Matermate is probably the scum RB; if he wasn't, he probably would have made the kill the night before last. We lynch him, then I can block PC and the scum can't kill anymore.
I find it really hard to see how PC as scum with you would have had difficulty getting on Yos2, setting up copper to hammer, though. I mean, it was perfectly consistent with his stated beliefs. Today, PC saying he thought MM was scum, but at the same time chiding Yos for voting him, seals it for me. They're both scum.
Like I said earlier, Yos, your repeated blunders cost town the game far more than the one mistake Fate made. I'll have more to say during post-game after my exam.
[ooc][color=black]patrickgower2006 (8:12:03 PM): all beer tastes same to me
patrickgower2006 (8:12:07 PM): like dish water
If you see Patrick drinking dish water, please try and stop him. Friends don't let friends drink dish water.[/color][/ooc]
If Fate sticks to his guns on FES, and doesn't start spouting the 'Yos is white knighting FES' crap that he came out with, then FES probably goes down, and scum might well lose.
Both Fate and Yos deserve criticism for buying too heavily into the 'all the scum are on one side of this argument' frame. That said, I maintain that the scum case on Yos was completely retarded. The Fate case at least made sense - it wasn't like I had to make arguments I wouldn't have made as town.
Mastermate, you were far stupider than Yos. There was absolutely no way Yos and Balam were scum together. None. Fate may have been town, but he wasn't right- about anything- the last couple of days. It was PC and MM buying Fate's bullshit that cost the town this game more than any one mistake Yos made.
Tbh, I would've gone into this game day thinking PC + mastermate for the last two scum. The complete tunnel vision on yos/balam yesterday was so bad that I just couldn't see town doing it. That said, lord fonzi had me completely snowed, so I probably wouldn't have figured things out. Also, mastermate's post coming into this game day was actually rather :goodposting: even if it wasn't enough to make up for d4. Yos' vote seemed a bit premature.
Yes, I agree with that Ray. The mea culpa on MM's part was good play and showed maturity. That said, it was also pretty much the only option that would have been left open to a scum MM there, as well. We were lucky enough to have a nice juicy townfight between Yos and Fate, and we just supported the side whose arguments actually made sense.
My view on it going into d4 was that Yos and Balam as scumbuddies was probable. However, the second that we had the massclaim come down the way it did we should have dropped that opinion as impossible and moved onto realistic targets. I did bring this up with MoS in aim but I think he'd wandered off somewhere at that point and the next time I saw the thread there'd been a lynch.
Yes, that's reasonable. It's like I said at the time- if there were any chance of Yos and Balam being scum together after fate claimed Vanilla, there would have to be another power role somewhere. FES made the very good point that scum just can't expect to have two of them claim powerful town roles and not have that imply the balance is fucked. Was it MoS who made the 'one tracker alone is balanced' argument? I literally couldn't believe I was reading that from an MS veteran.
I think I mostly got carried away by the time the mass claim came around. I was really pissed that everyone just threw out their claims before Yos and Balam revealed their results, and I was just seeing red after that. I know that my play was awful yesterday, and that sucks for the town. Still, I cannot believe that YosCayke was willing to go straight to the quicklynch without talking this through at all. That was not good town play either. There are countless examples of town voting in LYLO and the scum not quicklynching, and yet YosCayke still took that as evidence that we were scum. That did not make sense as the reason for an immediate quicklynch vote, since they *knew* if they were wrong the game was immediately over. Two scum votes is a lot easier to coordinate than three, that's for sure.
Going into today, I honestly had no idea we were going to get lynched. Based on the previous day, it felt obvious that the lynches were going to be Copper, PC, then probably us. I went into the day trying to recuperate my mistakes, and Primate was tasked with studying the other players to find out who scum was. I felt for sure that a protown YosCayke would take the opportunity to gather as much information on the last scum as possible, even if they were convinced of who the second one was, which is why I presented the mass-ISO plan. It really threw my reads for a loop when they completely ignored it, and I actually went back to thinking they might be a scum jailkeeper.
I just remembered the argument I had for us being protown, and I'm kinda sad I forgot to present it, although I get the feeling it wouldn't have helped. Going into that night after the FD lynch, YosCayke and Balam had identified Copper and PC as scum. Thus, the smart choice for scum would be to have their third member make the nightkill. Yet, even though YosCayke blocked us, someone still died. That was pretty strong evidence for us being town, since there was pretty much no reason to suspect we would be blocked that night (especially with the doctor soft-claim). Still, too little too late, I wish I had remembered to say this before we got speedlynched.
We didn't really have any reason to think PC was the other scum except for Yos/Balam's claims that it was them, which is why we didn't commit to a PC lynch right away going into today. Still, that influenced us to only be looking for one scum out of Fonzi/FES, which was really difficult since they both seemed so damned scummy. It didn't really matter, though, since YosCayke didn't give anyone time to do some ISOs and try to find that third partner before we made a lynch today.
Regardless of the above comments, though, none of that excuses my terrible play the day before, so I'm sorry for putting the town in that position. Well played scum, you probably shouldn't have won this easily but you managed to capitalize on town stupidity all around and props for that.
You know what, MoS? I'd have seen red if I were town over your refusal to participate in the massclaim in the manner agreed to. You were more suspicious of Yos, you should have claimed first. I've seen 'I don't want to claim, because then he'll change his claim based on mine' standoffs before, and the only resolution is to go with the will of the town. Which was MM before Yos, because that's what the popcorn decreed.
Mastermind of Sin wrote:
I just remembered the argument I had for us being protown, and I'm kinda sad I forgot to present it, although I get the feeling it wouldn't have helped. Going into that night after the FD lynch, YosCayke and Balam had identified Copper and PC as scum. Thus, the smart choice for scum would be to have their third member make the nightkill. Yet, even though YosCayke blocked us, someone still died. That was pretty strong evidence for us being town, since there was pretty much no reason to suspect we would be blocked that night (especially with the doctor soft-claim). Still, too little too late, I wish I had remembered to say this before we got speedlynched.
Oh yeah, and this wasn't a good argument at all. Yoscayke was obviously roleblocked.
Before Yos, definitely, that was a mistake. Which side of the claims balam goes depends entirely of whether you think he's scummy or not and who are the people who need to be confirmed, him or the rest of the town.
I have no objection to stopping a popcorn claim that we never agreed to in the first place and would have objected to if we had been there. Town shouldn't have done it like that and someone needed to stop it so yos could claim results.
Mastermate wrote:Before Yos, definitely, that was a mistake. Which side of the claims balam goes depends entirely of whether you think he's scummy or not and who are the people who need to be confirmed, him or the rest of the town.
Right, and the right to make that decision belongs to the town as a whole, via popcorn process, not to you as an individual.
You could have claimed, then asked him to claim results next. Objecting to the process when it's your turn just looks like scum wanting to base their claim off as much info as possible. If you'd asked the town, I think there would have been a majority for 'after the massclaim' rather than 'before' for Yos and Balam to claim.
