The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[Mastermind of Sin]

You know what, MoS? I'd have seen red if I were town over your refusal to participate in the massclaim in the manner agreed to. You were more suspicious of Yos, you should have claimed first. I've seen 'I don't want to claim, because then he'll change his claim based on mine' standoffs before, and the only resolution is to go with the will of the town. Which was MM before Yos, because that's what the popcorn decreed.

The mass claim should not have happened before the results were claimed anyway, and the town players should not have gone ahead with a mass claim without getting input from everyone first. We never got to comment on how the mass claim should be conducted, which is why I took such issue with it going down so poorly. The town really flubbed that one, imo. It is *always* in the town's best interest to get everyone's opinion on a plan before moving forward with it, and that ended up screwing us because from my end I saw scum (YosCayke/Balam) pushing a poorly executed mass claim so they could set up Yos' claim, and from their end they saw us refusing to claim as being scummy. If we had been allowed to voice our objections before the mass claim was in progress, it would have gone much better. The scum helped push the mass claim forward, but the protown players should not have gone along with it so easily without discussing how to conduct it first. Mass claims are never inherently protown, they have to be executed carefully in order to protect the value of information revealed.

[The Fonz]

I think pretty much everyone who posted was OK with massclaim, and I don't like the idea of dragging out the day waiting for one lurker to give his OK.

[GreyICE]

We had it most of the way down by the end of day 2 even if we fucked up on FES. Can't believe Copper wasn't autolynched when we died. Hey PC, you noted that you didn't think we looked 'very townie' when you replaced in, and were going to take a hard look at me D3. And we died. So why do you think we were killed? Power Role hunting, 'obvtown' status, or reads?

HINT: IT WASN'T THE FIRST TWO. THOUGH MISLYNCHING US WOULD HAVE BEEN A TRIP. YOS WOULD HAVE HELPED BUT THE REST OF THE SCUM TEAM MIGHT NOT HAVE.

I mostly blame Fate and town retardation. Fate just needed this argument: "I said I'd never lynch Copper, Grey was going to kill him D3, Grey's dead. Lynch Copper." Claiming cop to counterclaim Balam just made the entire dead thread collectively facepalm.

I have to give Yos mad props though. Mafia Traitor is a tough role to play, but he correctly identified the scumteam and defended them at every opportunity.

P.S. Does anyone read what the night kill victims wrote with the idea that 'hey, they're obviously town the scum wanted dead?' Or is it just me?
P.P.S. Llamarble is an awesome hydra buddy. Maaaannnn he's good at analysis and keeping my wackier ideas in check (he shot down the Balam thing so hard, but agreed with the Copper one). We'll be around if he's still game

[chesskid3]

this game looked horrible

thanks TBM for not letting me in I would have wanted to stab someone

[The Fonz]

P.S. Does anyone read what the night kill victims wrote with the idea that 'hey, they're obviously town the scum wanted dead?' Or is it just me?

I did. We didn't kill you because of your scum reads, which seemed flimsy and changeable, we killed you because your town reads were bang on. That bit about 'scum is not found by playing pick three of...' sealed your fate. All those players were town. That said, y'know, you'd even said you wanted to lynch UB before you died.

That said, this was a tricky game to be scum in. Gurgi and I joined because we wanted to scumhunt together, and it was hard adapting to being scum. I think the same may be true of Reckamonic. The reads on which Gurgi based his early play were made before we even knew we were scum- he genuinely didn't get the FES hate.

[GreyICE]

P.S. Does anyone read what the night kill victims wrote with the idea that 'hey, they're obviously town the scum wanted dead?' Or is it just me?

I did. We didn't kill you because of your scum reads, which seemed flimsy and changeable, we killed you because your town reads were bang on. That bit about 'scum is not found by playing pick three of...' sealed your fate. All those players were town. That said, y'know, you'd even said you wanted to lynch UB before you died.

That said, this was a tricky game to be scum in. Gurgi and I joined because we wanted to scumhunt together, and it was hard adapting to being scum. I think the same may be true of Reckamonic. The reads on which Gurgi based his early play were made before we even knew we were scum- he genuinely didn't get the FES hate.

I said I wanted to lynch UB. I didn't say he was scum. There's a total and complete difference - I believe my last post on the matter was that he was town, but if we wanted to policy lynch he was the best damn policy lynch ever.

I was onto you and Copper, and FES was... god... I've NEVER seen scum defended that hard by town. I figured Yos was white knighting - that argument for FES being town was so insanely bad that I figured it HAD to be made by scum who'd been backed into a corner by white knighting a scummy townie who just refused to play in any sort of pro-town manner.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I have to give Yos mad props though. Mafia Traitor is a tough role to play, but he correctly identified the scumteam and defended them at every opportunity.

Lawl.

[The Fonz]

I was onto you and Copper, and FES was... god... I've NEVER seen scum defended that hard by town. I figured Yos was white knighting - that argument for FES being town was so insanely bad that I figured it HAD to be made by scum who'd been backed into a corner by white knighting a scummy townie who just refused to play in any sort of pro-town manner.

I thought his arguments for FES-town were pretty good, actually. I'd have had no problem seeing townYos believing them. You were 'onto' us with a series of poor and, frankly, in many cases factually untrue arguments. I mean, like I said, Gurgi basically stuck to the same positions he'd taken when he thought he was town.

[RayFrost]

GreyIce has a lot of "THIS GUY BE SCUM/TOWN" accuracy, but he has issues actually quantifying the why of it in a way that makes any sense, ime.

[AGar]

This game had too much meta-ing of a single head and trying to apply it to an entire slot, which was one thing that really hurt the town in the long run. Lots of poor assumptions and reads were made off of that fact.

Props to LF, btw. I was snowed.

[Incognito]

@The Fonz: I don't really see how the case on Yos was retarded; Yos had the same exact suspicions from Day 1 pretty much throughout the game even when it was becoming more and more obvious that all of the people he suspected were pretty much obvtown for a variety of reasons. "Consistency is a scum tell" if you will. From my point of view, it looked like a scum Yos just was refusing to give up his mislynch candidates. I kept on citing different reasons for why Yos should change his mind about certain people, particularly Fate on Day 3, but he kept shooting them down over and over again. At that point, I just got frustrated and concluded that Yos was just scum even though my read of him coming into the game was town. And then when I heard Yos' choices for Jailkeeps... woah nelly. It just seemed even more scummy. Maybe since you were scum you couldn't really see why it made sense, but from a town point of view, Yos looked pretty scummy here. The only thing he had in his favor by mass claim time was game PR balance, imo.

Also also, like I mentioned in the thread, smargaret and I for awhile were tossing around the idea of this being a two-scum game. Because of that, I never really bought into the whole game balance argument for Yos being town until Balam actually died as a town Rolecop. It was only at that point that it became more obvious that Yos was probably town.

So why do you think we were killed? Power Role hunting, 'obvtown' status, or reads?

It was almost certainly reads. I kept arguing throughout the game that DaSpot/FD/Unicorns were very likely town because I couldn't see them as scum killing off people who thought they were town like you and Pathetric did. I even made a case on Copper partially based on your suspecting of him but the case never seemed to get much support. I mean, I'd even say that your suspecting of Yos was another part of the reason why I began to think Yos might have been scum, so I don't really get what you're questioning me about here. People like me, FD, DaSpot, and the Unicorns definitely DID look into various reasons why certain people might have been killed.



Incidentally, I too think Yos' reason for thinking FES was town was pretty solid but pretty much everything else FES did should have probably raised a red flag, imo. Ah well.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Also also, like I mentioned in the thread, smargaret and I for awhile were tossing around the idea of this being a two-scum game. Because of that, I never really bought into the whole game balance argument for Yos being town until Balam actually died as a town Rolecop. It was only at that point that it became more obvious that Yos was probably town.

Doesn't it make more sense to shelve that thought for the day and push Balam/YosCayke only if there's a mislynch and the game doesn't end?

[The Fonz]

@The Fonz: I don't really see how the case on Yos was retarded; Yos had the same exact suspicions from Day 1 pretty much throughout the game even when it was becoming more and more obvious that all of the people he suspected were pretty much obvtown for a variety of reasons. "Consistency is a scum tell" if you will. From my point of view, it looked like a scum Yos just was refusing to give up his mislynch candidates. I kept on citing different reasons for why Yos should change his mind about certain people, particularly Fate on Day 3, but he kept shooting them down over and over again.

Fate Day 3 was incredibly scummy. Every single point we made against him was true. He was playing to survive. Every single dodgy thing FES did, Fate did the same or worse.

At that point, I just got frustrated and concluded that Yos was just scum even though my read of him coming into the game was town. And then when I heard Yos' choices for Jailkeeps... woah nelly. It just seemed even more scummy. Maybe since you were scum you couldn't really see why it made sense, but from a town point of view, Yos looked pretty scummy here. The only thing he had in his favor by mass claim time was game PR balance, imo.

Which was huge. But really, as scum you love it when an honest game theory disagreement, like whether a jailkeeper is best used primarily as a roleblocker or a doctor, turns into 'You're scum for disagreeing with me!' on both sides.

People like me, FD, DaSpot, and the Unicorns definitely DID look into various reasons why certain people might have been killed.

FD looked into the nightkills in order to use whatever they could about them to confirm what they'd already decided they were going to argue.

[TheButtonmen]

It's the Final Vote Count:

Mastermate (3): YosFlavouredCay, Lord Fonzi, FES

[TheButtonmen]

Mastermate the Vanilla Townie

has been lynched!

YosFlavouredCayke the Town Jailkeeper

has been endgamed!

Profane Confusion

has been endgamed!

Copper the Mafia Goon

has won!

FES the Mafia Goon

has won!

Lord Fonzi the Mafia Roleblocker

has won!

[TheButtonmen]

Setup:

2 Goons
1 Roleblocker

1 Tracker
1 Jailkeeper
1 Rolecop
7 VTs

Dead QT is here.

[Faraday]

protip: don't claim cop when someone claims a vanilla result on you, it's actually not good play.

[Faraday]

aim stuff really fucked this game over and left a sour taste in my mouth from following along. no idea what FD was thinking.


also with my large sample size of 2 all hydra games seem to be generally terrible.

[Incognito]

Ooh, a dead QT. I gotta read that.

I'm kinda amazed by all the people who are chiming in that they were following along.

[Fate]

HOW BOUT NEXT TIME WE LYNCH ACCORDING TO FATE AND WIN GAMES

[Fate]

protip: don't claim cop when someone claims a vanilla result on you, it's actually not good play.

SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH

YOU WERENT IN THIS GAME

YOU DONT KNOW WHAT WE WENT THROUGH

[Fate]

Mastermate, you were far stupider than Yos. There was absolutely no way Yos and Balam were scum together. None. Fate may have been town, but he wasn't right- about anything- the last couple of days. It was PC and MM buying Fate's bullshit that cost the town

this game more than any one mistake Yos made.

Literally defending scum ALL GAME and not having a single correct scumread... didn't cost town the game?

Its shit like that fucks up reads HORRIBAD for the rest of us.

Yeah my Yos+Balam case was stupid and bullshit in hindsight, but given the way Yos was playing and the claims it made fuckin sense.

[Fate]

PC was confirmed town to me as was MasterMate.

If those two had stuck together it would've been easy road to victory, but Yos laid the final misvote down so hwo the fuck are you trying to blame PC+MM+Me?

[Faraday]

did you suffer some form of stroke? cos that is the only thing that explains your gambit. not like you were terrible by yourself, or anything so you've got a fair amount of good company. at least some of your reads were good I guess.

[Primate]

I hated the aim thing as well, I ended the day because I suspected that if it was properly looked into the mod would end the game and I was pretty angry. It was a mistake in hindsight, I shouldn't pre-empt mod decisions.

The thing that's darkly funny about the whole deal though is that fate wasn't even right about Balam anyway, so as well as being potentially game-killing it was pointless.