The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[AlmasterGM]

Our fakeclaim cost us a single lynch that probably would have have happened anyway. The town's inability to mobilize and lynch scum the entire time (specifically FES, who we wanted to lynch ALL OF D1 and most of D2) because key town members refused (Yos) was what lost the game.

[Copper]

As you probably gathered, we had some issues with activity. Most of our Copper games are done when we anticipate large swaths of free time, but this was done as a favor to TBM. Our play suffered accordingly. Thankfully, the scumteam still won.

Final Destination owes town (and specifically Balam) an apology for that awful gambit. I would say that Equinox similarly owes Final Destination an apology for her disgustingly premature accusation of lying about out of game information, but she had the maturity to already offer one in her first post of Day Five.

GreyMarble easily wins town MVP, in our view. We find it funny that, after all of Yossarian's talk of scum simply NK'ing the person with the best reads, we more or less did exactly that (though town reads were our target, more than scum) and he didn't seem to read Greymarble's posts post mortem.

Overall, this was a very emotional game, and I think it might have had more to do with the involved personalities than the hydras. Another game like this could be fun. Just...no unicorns, and with a nice long break before.

A preview edit: Fate, you weren't quite the wrongest townie here, but you were damn close. Swallow your pride, apologize, and learn from your mistakes. The alternative is to stagnate in mediocrity.

[Fate]

GreyICE needs to shut the fuck up about

LYNCH COPPER LYNCH COPPER ZOMG WHY NOT LYNCH COPPER HE WAS SO OBV COPPER LYNCH PL0X

Fucking seriously.

There was no way we weret ouching Copper without Yos/FES resolved

[Fate]

Damn close how?

YES WE WERE WRONG ABOUT YOS+BALAM HORRIBLY WRONG


Before that?

How the fuck? We were #2 #3 WITH READS. We stuck to FES for a whole goddamn day and a half. We always had suspicions of Copper because of who he replaced but thought it easier to lynch him later towards endgame.

AGM and I also discussed Fonzi scum who made sense with Copper the way Copper defended his playstyle and the way Fonzi was just "Policin" the thread and shit and not generating content.

Did we ever DEFEND scum to the bitter end? Did we ever REFUSE to re-assess our reads? Yos had Daspot and me as scum for a good 3 fucking days, never once reconsidering anything, and defended FES and called him his

STONGEST TOWNREAD

at one point.

So don't give me this "you better apologize fateee!"

No.

The gambit was bad and wasn't our best work, it accomplished SOMETHING and I don't regret it. I don't owe an apology to Balam especially now that RayFrost has said "oh it wasnt after you drunk raged in this game'

WHAT?

Yes it was. We DEFINITELY had that conversation during this game between my drunk raging and calling you town, THTAS WHY I FUCKIN CHANGED MY READ ON YOU.

Man up and admit that you pushed site rules by approaching my Frost, and I'll admit I was complicit. The fuck are you scared of? That's what happened.

[Lord Gurgi]

I have to apologise. I was barely even playing after day three. I think it was partially because of the whole Fate thing. That just isn't mafia. Fonz carried this thing to victory on this end. I think that playing as separate heads is a poor idea. A lot of the time when I logged on I felt like disagreeing with Fonz would be bad, or agreeing with him would seem pointless. :/.

[Fate]

Fate Day 3 was incredibly scummy. Every single point we made against him was true. He was playing to survive. Every single dodgy thing FES did, Fate did the same or worse.

Then why was I so easily and correctly read by MM, GreyMarble, UB, PC, Daspot, and Ether?

Your argument was "HE ONLY POSTS WHEN UNDER PRESSURE AND USES AGM AS AN EXCUSE"

Which now that the games over and you're not scum anymore, you need to fuckin admit was BULLSHIT. That was not how we were playing, the activity trouble was real, and obviously as with any game you have more to post about when people are voting you and questioning you.

But "Lurked while I was softbussing Copper LOLZ" is horesshit because me and AGM didn't even have time to DISCUSS that Copper Wagon.

At that point, I just got frustrated and concluded that Yos was just scum even though my read of him coming into the game was town. And then when I heard Yos' choices for Jailkeeps... woah nelly. It just seemed even more scummy. Maybe since you were scum you couldn't really see why it made sense, but from a town point of view, Yos looked pretty scummy here. The only thing he had in his favor by mass claim time was game PR balance, imo.

Exactly. So, we were on our way to getting lynched after Balam "clears" Yos, so instead we gambit and try to get them both dead instead because we were 10000% more sure they were scum than we were.

People like me, FD, DaSpot, and the Unicorns definitely DID look into various reasons why certain people might have been killed.

FD looked into the nightkills in order to use whatever they could about them to confirm what they'd already decided they were going to argue.

Putting words in my mouth? You don't HAVE TO BE SCUM ANYMORE, its over. I saw in the NKs shit that I concluded to be true. What the fuck is with this uncalled fvor ad hom of FATES A TERRIBAD PLAYER AND PLAYS LIKE SCUM WHEN HES TOWN LOROLTROLROL CONFIRMATION BIAS. No, I saw in the NK targets people that were townish that had GOOD READS. I thought they were killed more for their townreads and inability to be swayed off said reads than=LOLGREYDEAD=COPPERDEFSCUM?LOLOLOLOL.

I won't put up with this shit. How about you let me explain MY PLAY rather than doing it for me? Cause there's no way in fuck you know what we looked into the NKs for or what we concluded more than I do.

[Fate]

I mostly blame Fate and town retardation. Fate just needed this argument: "I said I'd never lynch Copper, Grey was going to kill him D3, Grey's dead. Lynch Copper."

This is the sort of shit about hwat I mean when you need to shutup.


Dumbfuck and the scumteam already had our mislynch planned out for that day.

And you think "Oh well Grey died ergo Copper is scum, let's lynch him" would've made everyone go "OK FATEYOU SO TOWN LETS LYNCH COPPER?!!?!"

No moron.

That's not how it would've happened.

[Incognito]

I missed Fonz's and CES's posts somehow.

Doesn't it make more sense to shelve that thought for the day and push Balam/YosCayke only if there's a mislynch and the game doesn't end?

Well, yeah. I really wanted to use Day 4 a bit more appropriately than it was but the Copper lynch happened so quickly that that never really panned out. I kind of thought that by floating the two-scum theory out there, I might get a better view of who might be town based on responses to it but the response was pretty typical for this game: ignore ignore. PC you're just scum. etc.

Fate Day 3 was incredibly scummy. Every single point we made against him was true. He was playing to survive. Every single dodgy thing FES did, Fate did the same or worse.

Eh, still don't think he was. The same exact reason Lord Gurgi gave for me being town (that I was changing my mind about stuff when given new information) pretty much applied to Fate during Day 3 too. That long David Lynch post that I wrote summarized that pretty well, I think. It's ridiculous to say that FES and FD paralleled each other in activity or anything else; you can look at post counts to prove that wrong. FES was just going through the motions; FD was actually scum-hunting.

[Equinox]

Sigh. Time to step on this landmine. I want to make it clear, though, that I do not want to dispute the timeline or what happened; I am just going to state something that should essentially be fact.

Yes it was. We DEFINITELY had that conversation during this game between my drunk raging and calling you town, THTAS WHY I FUCKIN CHANGED MY READ ON YOU.

We should be modkilled for this, you know.

---

For all the hate that's being slung at Final Destination and YosFlavouredCayke, I think the person you really should be throwing that on is me. If I didn't derail the Frogito Ergo Sum wagon on Day 2, we could be sitting here right now congratulating the town. Heck, I'm not sure if the reasoning I used was even logical.

Good game, scum.

[Ether]

I'm going to sort out my AIM logs and try to ignore all the yelling. I lost respect for quite a few people through this game, and BeaverWeasel is a little bitch. That's it.

Equinox, I didn't mind Balam but I disagree with pretty much everything you, personally, posted in your QuickTopic. (At least on Day 1. Wasn't paying much attention past that.) You wanna chat about it in a cordial manner?

When I yelled at Shanba and Gurgi for killing me in my quest to secure the scum QuickTopic, they both insisted that they didn't want me to die and Copper had overruled them. I am still

deeply saddened

by their spinelessness.

[GreyICE]

Thanks Copper. Hydraing with Llamarble was HUGE for me. He's an utter beast when it comes to long-term reasoned analysis and telling me to 'stfu about dumb stuff' which he always phrases more politely, but which nine in ten (if not more) he's dead on about. If he's game, you're going to see that hydra a lot more, he really, really helps my play (I dunno how I effect his, hopefully pretty good). What was scary was the number of times I'd post something in the thread, pop open the QT and see... the same thing (yes, I often posted before checking QT. I is baaaadd hydra buddy).

Balam

- my push day 2 was entirely legit, but by the end I did read you as town. The exact problem I had was exactly what I said in the thread (and others are saying in the post game) - you relied on these "AIM Convos" for reads, and we never got to see the reasoning. It occurred to me that was a

great

way for scum to justify wagon hops. Like "Oh hai, Ray Frost convinced us because of X and Y that THIS PERSON is the right wagon!"

I read your response as town (not that I didn't enjoy tweaking your nose). I think the way you were playing was generally anti-town in that regard, but you were town. If Equinox, Frost, and AGar had been presenting their reasoning in the thread, I think there would have been two pro-town effects. First, a lot more discussion (this is cool), and second, you could have found holes in your ideas and refined your good points, as well as moved more analytical townies along. Near the end of day 2 and day 3 you moved to that style which was a lot better.

Fonz

- I really wish you'd stop saying that you were playing like town. You were playing pretty much exactly like scum. I'm not going through the damn thread to explain exactly why you were scum, but you really were. The gummybear wagon cemented it. Your reaction to that was as scum as scum could be.

Copper

- I enjoyed reading every one of your posts, even when I realized you were scum. Your exact fuck up was that little joke I slipped in about Llamarble in the QT. I didn't have you down as obvtown before that, but anyone as analytical as you would have pegged that I was making a joke about the argument me and Balam were having (it is frustrating, neh?). Also your interaction pattern was scummy. You were pushing mislynches and making active town players feel like you were interacting with them. But you weren't pushing marginally active town players, or players you were letting 'slide' and it really showed.

Yos

- From the dead thread:

Guys, guys, I figured it out.

Yos is actually on the scumteam. The real scum are doing less to protect scum and lynch town than he is.

You never ever ever did any pro-town things at all, and I don't care what the scum say. Your argument on FES town looked like it was DESIGNED to MAKE me want to lynch him. It really felt like you were scum white knighting for a townie because I couldn't buy anyone making that as a serious argument.

Fate/AGM

- http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=11

I will beat AGM with a sack of rocks.
He should die. That's unacceptable play for newbies in F11.
Unacceptable. Play. For. Newbies. In. F11.

Go there, play games until you know not to do that.

Other than that I was very impressed. But seriously, one action undid EVERYTHING you did.

[Fate]

No, Balam, its fine.

Gummy WAS an unreadable slot and a drag on town. Just as much as FES? I thought so.

Course there was NO ONE defending Gummy at the time the way Yos was defending FES.

I mean yes it would've been niceer in hindsight to have hammered FES without claim like I'd ask, but at the time an all-town startup wagon on Gummy jumpstarted activity at least AND did remove GummyFlake from the game.

The next day (3) though, "LOL FD WAGON" was a worse offense than joining me back on the FES wagon (where I started the day).

I still haven't seen TBM say what he would've modkilled for or what, and I still maintain that talking to another player about THEIR META is fine even if line-tiptoeingly close to talking about an ongoing game.

[Fate]

GreyICE don't you tell ME to go to play in newbie games you fuckwad.

I'm growing tired of your arrogance, you're still newer to this site to me. The fact that TIME AND AGAIN in multiple games you judge other players from your high horse rather than objectively looking at what they were doing and what information they had and the gamestate at that time is fucking STUPID.

Its easy to sit in a dead qt and scream WHY WONT THEY LYNCH SCUM, its also very naive.

Its more a showing of an experienced player to sit in a dead qt and predict the way things actually WILL go based on the game at the time and the information availabe to the players IN that game.

It was a gambit, a GAMBLE, that Yos and Balam were scum and we were not. Since we were being lynched anyway with the way momentum was swinging, I'd take that gamble everytime.

So shove that newbie queue link up your ass.

[Ether]

Something was off. I mean "sure" this is how Yos "usually" plays, and he had her read as town correctly... but something was weird. Something about Yos' motives and posting and the stances he took.

Ether noticed it.

She said "meh, I guess he's town for now..."

But deep down.

She knew.

it's something that's made me think a little too because I know Ether's usually pretty damn good at getting reads off of people she's played with more than once. If she was hesitating about Yos then that's probably not that good of a sign for Yos.

PS. This was completely idiotic and don't do it again.

[Faraday]

I still haven't seen TBM say what he would've modkilled for or what, and I still maintain that talking to another player about THEIR META is fine even if line-tiptoeingly close to talking about an ongoing game.

It's a slipperly slope fo'sho, but I always tend to think you should err on the side of caution if you feel you're compromised and replace out. (and in this case I really, really think you were very compromised, it completely changed your read so it did affect the game)

[Equinox]

Equinox, I didn't mind Balam but I disagree with pretty much everything you, personally, posted in your QuickTopic. (At least on Day 1. Wasn't paying much attention past that.) You wanna chat about it in a cordial manner?

Go for it.

[Fate]

I don't like replacing out of games, I'd rather be modkilled tbh.

I've never replaced out of a game FFS. Its nowhere near my top ten of first reactions to something "sketchy"

I mean if he'd PM his role or asked "WHY YOU DOIN THIS IN HYDRAS DAMN IT?" or something blatant then I'd probably have done something different.

But erring on caution OBVIOUSLY isn't in my handbook.

[AlmasterGM]

GreyICE, stop thinking of things in absolutes. It isn't just about having good reads - it's also about having the momentum to act on them. Yes, we mistakenly counterclaimed town. However, we were working with limited information in a deadlocked town. Our gambit caught more scum (Copper) in a single day than Yos did the entire game. It was a chance at town victory. If we had done nothing, the game would have ended in the exact same way - scum victory.

So take your Newbie Queue elsewhere.

[Fate]

Something was off. I mean "sure" this is how Yos "usually" plays, and he had her read as town correctly... but something was weird. Something about Yos' motives and posting and the stances he took.

Ether noticed it.

She said "meh, I guess he's town for now..."

But deep down.

She knew.

it's something that's made me think a little too because I know Ether's usually pretty damn good at getting reads off of people she's played with more than once. If she was hesitating about Yos then that's probably not that good of a sign for Yos.

PS. This was completely idiotic and don't do it again.

Isn't this my first game with you as Ether?

Yeah sorry I don't have your meta DOWNPAT, but it seemed valid as hell because I often catch my "meta friends" D1 with a slight off feeling of, "meh I guess he's town."

The fact that you died after not showing support for a FD lynch also empowered this.

I mean yeah there's traces of confirmation bias because of my Yos scum read, more than this CAUSED my Yos scum read, but w/e.

[GreyICE]

GreyICE don't you tell ME to go to play in newbie games you fuckwad.

I'm growing tired of your arrogance, you're still newer to this site to me. The fact that TIME AND AGAIN in multiple games you judge other players from your high horse rather than objectively looking at what they were doing and what information they had and the gamestate at that time is fucking STUPID.

Its easy to sit in a dead qt and scream WHY WONT THEY LYNCH SCUM, its also very naive.

Its more a showing of an experienced player to sit in a dead qt and predict the way things actually WILL go based on the game at the time and the information availabe to the players IN that game.

It was a gambit, a GAMBLE, that Yos and Balam were scum and we were not. Since we were being lynched anyway with the way momentum was swinging, I'd take that gamble everytime.

So shove that newbie queue link up your ass.

No dude, it's not arrogance.

YOU DO NOT FAKECLAIM COP AND YOU DO NOT FAKECLAIM COP GUILTIES

JESUS CHRIST

Call it arrogance, call it what you want. Towns are EATEN by that sort of bullshit.

[Faraday]

I don't like replacing out of games, I'd rather be modkilled tbh.

Yeah, this is awful. I thought Stars Aligned would have helped show you why you were wrong. Guess not. Whatever.

[Faraday]

And maintaining the integrity of the game state (which wasn't done here, it was compromised) is more important than some bullshit 'I never replace out' thing too but I suppose if you felt it was acceptable here there's little point continuing this.

[Llamarble]

I was unfortunately in low participation mode (especially in-thread) for a long time and I apologize for that.
I had fun though. I like hydraing with Grey and we do seem to get pretty similar reads for different reasons, which is neat.
I think you'll be seeing more Greymarble in the future.
We had a lot of scum on our scumlists, but ended up lynching US town and Gummytown. I learned a lot about shiny objects.
Also how scumgroup influence can work at making the scumreads who aren't scum be the ones who get lynched.
PC's reads were really great until FD's fakeclaim made it hard for town to figure out what was going on (that's my biggest issue with such things).

I felt like FD should have realized Balam & YFC were town after their claims,
but other than that and the fakeclaim and the Balam thing I thought FD played well.

Yoscayke was very wrong about a lot of things. I suppose everyone gets incorrect ideas about what's going on sometimes.

[Fate]

Awful how?

It's the kind of person I am and how I deal with things.

I never went to my boss with a problem I could handle myself first.

I never went to LOLCOPS or LOLCOURT without trying to resolve it myself first.

That transfers over here to MS, and if it gets me in trouble? Well that's business as usual.

But yes, SA I did learn. This was not a severe an issue as SA though, in that game Reaper blatantly mentioned SA and told me to stop lynching him.

The integrity of the game was changed how?

Once again, I talked to RayFrost about mafia and playing styles and the purpose of drunkposting, never once mentioning my alignment in this game or any of my motivations in THIS game.

Its no different than talking to GreyICE outside of the game and realizing he's a pathological liar.

So let me ask this:

Mafia112 ends, in that game I was lynched for lying as town, counter-claiming a cop as a vanilla. I DISCUSS My motivations for said gambit in that game. RayFROST is in that game.
This mafia is still going on, I counter-claim RayFrost as a vanilla. RayFrost says "WALP, I think Fate is town due to the concversation we had after 112"

Game state broken?
NOPE.

[Faraday]

Nah, you're pretty obviously wrong but it's like trying to convince a crazy person they're crazy, pointless.