Mini 1166: Town Hall Mafia (GAME OVER)

[EmpTyger]

kuz:
At this site of yours, they know all about such terms as "LAL" and "chainsaw defending", but they don't cover something as basic as a claim at lynch-1?

I'm ready to shift my vote back to you.


Fishy:

I don't like this much, particularly in the context of kuz being under attack. The first sentence is just nonsense - of course everyone should assume the

possibility

of malicious intent, but assuming malicious intent to make your case is arguing from your conclusions.

That was kuz's term, not mine. I wanted to hear kuz's explanation of what he meant in saying it rather than argue the semantics of "assume" vs "conclude".

For the second, I don't see where kuz has remotely used his playstyle to explain or excuse anything.

Right here:

<snip>
VOTE: th3kuzinator

He seems upset that I have identified a townie so soon.

Why do people keep assuming I am upset? lol. Apparently any type of aggressive posting is taken as a sign of being butthurt. It's my playstyle, get over it.

ThA:

Question: what does scum have to gain by claiming to have a town-read on someone? Oppose that to: what does a scum have to gain in a situation where no one has town-reads on anyone else?

That's only the question if you're asking "is iama mafia?" 

Also, you should be considering the countersituation of what a protown might do. There are legitimate reasons to oppose a townread, although I don't think they apply in this instance.


MK:

Moreover, nobody seems to have anything to say about Emp's opinion on the confrontation between C and Kuz being contrived, and rather than that, have said "I agree." This is immediately followed by a vote. It's echoing described within content, and I'm wary of over defensiveness being the prime reason to lynch someone. It seems much too weak of a case.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Can you rephrase?

[ThAdmiral]

For the second, I don't see where kuz has remotely used his playstyle to explain or excuse anything.

Are you reading this game?

Overdefensive? It's called I don't let anyone try to take advantage of me. I am known throughout smashboards for doing town gambits. It's just what I like to do because it makes the game more enjoyable/exciting for me.

Why do people keep assuming I am upset? lol. Apparently any type of aggressive posting is taken as a sign of being butthurt. It's my playstyle, get over it.

ThA:

Question: what does scum have to gain by claiming to have a town-read on someone? Oppose that to: what does a scum have to gain in a situation where no one has town-reads on anyone else?

That's only the question if you're asking "is iama mafia?" 

Also, you should be considering the countersituation of what a protown might do. There are legitimate reasons to oppose a townread, although I don't think they apply in this instance.

Granted it's not quite as simple as what I've said. Mafia is never black-and-white after all.

[C-Worl]

@Fishy, Kuz's actions feel scummy yet you're not voting kuz. Why does Emp's post feel scummier than kuz's?

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

Basically TheAdmiral's simple post saying "This is a great point" before voting kuz makes me pretty wary, because an L-1 wagon so early in the game based mainly on over defensiveness and aggression isn't a great case in my opinion. His posts make me think more newbtown than scum, and I think his attempts at "underminding a town read" is more a desperate newbtown tactic, as opposed to something inherently scummy. I might be wrong. I'm just alarmed at how quickly this wagon gained speed. We have quite a lot of time to come to a decision, to analyze posts etc, and rushing a lynch will accomplish less than analyzing further posts, getting further reads, and give us a better anchor with which to go into Day 2.

[iamausername]

an L-1 wagon so early in the game based mainly on over defensiveness and aggression isn't a great case in my opinion

That's not what it's based on.

I think his attempts at "underminding a town read" is more a desperate newbtown tactic, as opposed to something inherently scummy.

what does this even mean

"a desperate newbtown tactic"

Why is he desperate? What is this 'tactic' designed to achieve?

[ThAdmiral]

@ mitsuru: Why do you think it is a newbtown tactic?

[Beefster]

Votecount 1.3

kuz (4) - C-Worl, Rhinox, iamausername, ThAdmiral

EmpTyger (1) - Fishy
Rhinox (1) - EmpTyger
iamausername (1) - Mitsuru Kijiro
C-Worl (1) - kuz

Not Voting

- sAb

With 9 players alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

sAb has been prodded.

[Rhinox]

To answer your question, no. If anything it makes me feel even better about him, because the fact that he has taken the effort to think about why I declared him town suggests he was genuinely suspicious of my motives for doing so.

Nothing much. Question to iam feels slightly like he's testing the water on you - I don't see why he'd ask iam rather than just make the point himself.

Fishy, keep in mind my original post was a mistype on my part - the question was about c-worl, not kuz.

that being said, early in the game, when I'm still trying to get started on figuring out player's alignments, I tend to ask questions rather than just coming out and making a point. I wanted to know iam's thoughts because I don't have a read on him yet, without keying him into exactly my thought process. So its not testing the waters, though I can see why you would think it.

Now that iam has answered, I can make the point. It basically echoes what kuz said:

@Iama: Are you honestly clearing CWorl from saying the word scummates instead of scummate? You do realize any half decent scum player could consciously on unconsciously throw that in? What bothers me more is that CWorl actually picked up on where you were going with it before you explained it.

Yeah, no need to rephrase it, basically this. I do see where iam is coming from in his response and it seems reasonable enough, I just disagree that its a good reason to call cworl town.

I'm going to

unvote: kuz

And

vote: ThAd

He seems upset that I have identified a townie so soon.

This is the best point in the game so far.

vote: kuz

that's -1

This is a horrible reason to put kuz at L-1. Even if that is the best point in the game, its not a L-1 worthy point. Especially because I see the same reasoning regarding iam/cworl as he does. He may have picked the wrong choice of words to express the point, but its sound logic.

The overdefensiveness is not the main point, it's the fact that he seems really upset that someone has a town-read on someone else.

Question: what does scum have to gain by claiming to have a town-read on someone? Oppose that to: what does a scum have to gain in a situation where no one has town-reads on anyone else?

c'mon, one look at your join date tells me you should know better than this. You're telling me in your 4-5 years on site, you've

never

seen scum call out town reads or agree with town reads? That scum

always

try to make sure nobody has town reads on anybody and are likely to get visually upset if someone expresses a solid town read? I don't buy it.

[sAbLLimINal]

Sorry, was busier than I thought I would be.

How did Emp not mentioning your vote justify it?

If he thought it wasn't random, then he would have mentioned something.

Going back now for a more thorough read.

[sAbLLimINal]

I won't be hammering right now since I feel that this wagon has been leaped on much too quickly.

I don't like how he claims this right after ThAdmiral places the L-1 vote on kuz. Emp mentioned about someone claiming once they are at L-1, and I would have thought mitsuru would have had the experience of knowing that. Even though he says that he feels the wagon has moved too quickly, he goes on to say that he is worried about the wagon, because people are voting for kuz since he is being over-defensive. This makes it seem like he wants to hammer, but is afraid to do so, which I see as scummy.
VOTE: Mitsuru Kijiro

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

He's desperate because basically his wagon built up speed very quickly. I know I got very defensive at the slightest questions my first game, leading to suspicion of me throughout the game, and my eventual lynch on Day 3. I was town. If you want a link to this game, lemme know and I'll provide it.

Also, I don't want to hammer nor am I afraid to hammer. If I was scummy in wanting to hammer but being afraid to hammer, I'd be hammering town, would I not? As such, I would be encouraging this wagon, rather than discouraging it. I don't understand the reasoning behind your vote.

[ThAdmiral]

He seems upset that I have identified a townie so soon.

This is the best point in the game so far.

vote: kuz

that's -1

This is a horrible reason to put kuz at L-1. Even if that is the best point in the game, its not a L-1 worthy point. Especially because I see the same reasoning regarding iam/cworl as he does. He may have picked the wrong choice of words to express the point, but its sound logic.

I think we will have to agree to disagree here.

Furthermore in a 9 player game people are going to be getting to -1 fairly quickly. To me this is a good thing as the main point of wagons are pressure, and being at -1 is as much pressure as a person can be under. This will help with reads as people's behavior is most telling when they are under pressure.

Talking about behavior...
Note that since kuz has been at -1:
- he hasn't claimed, even though he has posted and therefore has had a chance to do so.
- other than the one post he has basically stopped posting. This is particularly odd as during the first few days of this game he was involved in a flurry of posts.

The overdefensiveness is not the main point, it's the fact that he seems really upset that someone has a town-read on someone else.

Question: what does scum have to gain by claiming to have a town-read on someone? Oppose that to: what does a scum have to gain in a situation where no one has town-reads on anyone else?

c'mon, one look at your join date tells me you should know better than this.

You're telling me in your 4-5 years on site, you've

never

seen scum call out town reads or agree with town reads?

That scum

always

try to make sure nobody has town reads on anybody and are likely to get visually upset if someone expresses a solid town read? I don't buy it.

Bolding mine.

That's not the point though. Town-reads just shouldn't really be questioned, even if they are by scum. If scum want to claim a town-read on town, fine by me. That's just one less town they will be able to lynch come end of day. In fact if scum want to claim a town-read on

scum

, great! Just makes it that much easier to catch their buddy when they die.

[Fishythefish]

In my last post, I thought that Emp's "using your playstyle as an excuse" comment on kuz was based on a completely different post from the one it was. Reading the real post it was based on, it's a decent point; kuz's aggression isn't really relevant to him undermining a town read. Sorry about that.

For the other bit of the Emp post I disliked, I think it's pretty clear what kuz meant when he asked "why do you assume malicious intent?". There is a null explanation for asking about the site meta (viz he wanted to know about the site meta because he's new), and he was asking why people were assuming the scummy explanation (he wanted to know about the site meta because he is mafia wanting to know what he can get away with) was the correct one. Jumping on that with "this is mafia, of course people assume malicious intent" is a bad argument for me. However,
UNVOTE:

@Fishy, Kuz's actions feel scummy yet you're not voting kuz. Why does Emp's post feel scummier than kuz's?

Emp is scummy because he's jumping on the popular BW - and at this point quite likely the actual lynch - based on a couple of pretty poor points. kuz is heavily under attack (L-1, even?), with IMO one decent point against him (ie. undermining an early town read. For me, this is scummy because town have no real reason to do it). I'm not sure which I find scummier, but I am sure which needs my vote more.

@Rhinox re "testing the waters": thanks for that explanation.

ThAd's last paragraph of the above post is bizarrely wrong. Seems to say you should never call people out for buddying, which seems to me to be a fine way to catch scum. It's an absurd generalisation, and it feels like he's twisted himself in circles trying to justify his point. I also dislike him saying that he put kuz at L-1 for pressure, and then to call it scummy that kuz hasn't claimed - if he thinks claiming is a natural part of putting someone at L-1, then that must have been part of his reason for doing so. And if he really did want a claim at this stage of the game, based on the evidence we have, that is massively scummy. Incidentally,

kuz shouldn't claim

.

VOTE: ThAd

[ThAdmiral]

I tend to think of buddying as somewhat more sophisticated than what you are implying. To me buddying is stuff like agreeing with someone's reads, defending them against attacks, copying their cases,

as well as

calling them town.

[Beefster]

Votecount 1.4

kuz (3) - C-Worl, iamausername, ThAdmiral

ThAdmiral (2) - Rhinox, Fishy
Rhinox (1) - EmpTyger
iamausername (1) - Mitsuru Kijiro
C-Worl (1) - kuz
Mits (1) - sAb

With 9 players alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

[C-Worl]

Kus needs more votes please. kthxbye

[EmpTyger]

Fishy:
Why are you only considering cases where kuz is innocent?
And, why, of all those who've suspected kuz, are you giving Rhinox a pass?


C-W:
Sorry, not ready to compromise, not while Rhinox is being this slimy. (Most recently: voting for ThA because ThA *agreed* with the case Rhinox was making.)    
Though while we're waiting, if you assume kuz to be guilty, who do you think his partner might be?


MK:
I get what happened to you, but that's not what happened here to kuz. Reread his back-and-forth with C-W, especially this: 

Tis cool though. I'll just wait to see who comes to chainsaw you.

From the beginning, kuz is *expecting* to get attacked. His "defensiveness" starts before the bandwagon- it's not a reaction to it. In fact, once the bandwagon against him starts, the opposite happens: he underreacts, if anything.

I don't think kuz is an innocent newbie. I think he's either guilty or he's trying some kind of stupid gambit.

[Fishythefish]

Fishy:
Why are you only considering cases where kuz is innocent?
And, why, of all those who've suspected kuz, are you giving Rhinox a pass?

1) I'm not. Not at all.
2) Because he hasn't suspected kuz in a way I find scummy.

[ThAdmiral]

Fishy:
Why are you only considering cases where kuz is innocent?

1) I'm not. Not at all.

Seems like you are, dude.

[C-Worl]

C-W:
Sorry, not ready to compromise, not while Rhinox is being this slimy. (Most recently: voting for ThA because ThA *agreed* with the case Rhinox was making.)    
Though while we're waiting, if you assume kuz to be guilty, who do you think his partner might be?

I'm trying to narrow down the suspects. Fishface is at the top of the list but I'm undecided.

[Fishythefish]

@ThAd:
1) If kuz is town, I think you and to a lesser extent EmpTyger are likely scum.
2) If kuz is scum, that's not the case.
So when I make that case, it's going to sound like I'm assuming kuz is town. But all that I'm really assuming is that there's enough chance of kuz being town that trying to get him lynched in bad ways is scummy. Which is true for everyone in the game.

[iamausername]

This is a horrible reason to put kuz at L-1. Even if that is the best point in the game, its not a L-1 worthy point. Especially because I see the same reasoning regarding iam/cworl as he does. He may have picked the wrong choice of words to express the point, but its sound logic.

First sentence makes no sense. If it's the best point in the game, then of course it's an L-1 worthy point.

Last sentence is also wrong. It's not sound logic. People discredit these kind of 'townslips' all the time, on the basis that "scum could fake it", but have you ever actually seen any scum player do that? I know I haven't.

He's desperate because basically his wagon built up speed very quickly.

This doesn't explain how something he did

before

his wagon built up speed was a 'desperate newbtown tactic'.

Also, why are you voting for me when it seems like you have more of an issue with ThAd?

Talking about behavior...
Note that since kuz has been at -1:
- he hasn't claimed, even though he has posted and therefore has had a chance to do so.
- other than the one post he has basically stopped posting. This is particularly odd as during the first few days of this game he was involved in a flurry of posts.

I actually agree with Fishy on this one; as things stand, there's no reason that kuz should have claimed. He was at L-1, but no one has indicated a willingness to drop the hammer vote, as far as I remember. I mean, I'd prefer it if someone did, because he's scum, but until that happens, he shouldn't claim.

Second point is entirely accurate, and telling, though.

[ThAdmiral]

@ThAd:
1) If kuz is town, I think you and to a lesser extent EmpTyger are likely scum.
2) If kuz is scum, that's not the case.
So when I make that case, it's going to sound like I'm assuming kuz is town. But all that I'm really assuming is that there's enough chance of kuz being town that trying to get him lynched in bad ways is scummy. Which is true for everyone in the game.

Fair enough.

Second point is entirely accurate, and telling, though.

Yeah. Newbscum has disappeared. No surprises here.

[C-Worl]

Whenever I'm scum and a wagon builds on me my scum team starts telling me to lie low and let the heat dissipate. (On sites where we get to day talk) Though, he may have real life shit that's keeping him from posting. It's a scumtell but not the best. If he's been posting in other games it's definitely a tell but if he hasn't been posting on the site then we should assume it's unrelated to the game.

[C-Worl]

Last post was on the 8th. Real life may have come up.