New York 131: Tricycle Mafia (Day 5)

[nhammen]

2. Sheeping, unnecessary direction at KoC and Max and it looked like he was just trying to find a reason to keep his sheeped vote where it was.

It was a case I agreed with, so... yeah, you could say I was sheeping it. And?

I wanted to keep the Maxous wagon together for a bit longer, as it seemed to be generating discussion (i.e. the SZS/Toon argument). Pine wasn't scummy enough to get me to take my vote away from that, but KoC was.

I guess. However (this may just be paranoia speaking) it seems likely to be a post-hoc explanation.

Knight has been the most consistently scummy. Other players have made scummy posts, which I've tried to call attention to, but Knight is the only one whose gameplay as a whole is suspicious.

Right hang on now you see "gameplay" is a pretty big, nebulous word and is pretty much equivalent to "gut" here since you're not actually giving any kind of quantifier beyond "his gameplay is scummy". That's not a statement you get to make without backing it up.

Agree. Amor, what specifically are you referring to when you say his "gameplay as a whole is suspicious"?

@SZS: This is very flimsy, especially at this point in the game at this time of the year, but both games I've played with nhammen have been games where he was scum, and both had very similar playstyles. I'm already seeing parallels in his only three posts so far: he's lurky, but when he does post they look really townie. He was only caught in the first game because he got killed by an SK N1 - he didn't get caught in the second one.

Hm... If you suspect him then start a case on him.

Ummm... that's what he was doing. What more do you want? It may not be a good case, but it is an attempt at a case.

• KOC and Subzero are likely to be town.
  I think Jmurph is town.
  Ever so slightly leaning town on Wraith.
  nhammen and Mr.Zepher look like town.
  I'm unsure about Thor- I'll see after a couple of more posts.
  VERY unsure about Amor
  Pine looks slightly scummy
  Toon fighter seems like mafia - quite interested in his next post

Everybody else is null due to not having enough content to judge them by apart from:

Unvote

VOTE: Silverbullet

Looks to be active lurking.

Sigh... Town has two jobs: find scum, and convince other town that your reads are right. If you are town, then this list is an attempt at the first, but an absolute failure at the second. Try again, with explanations.

2. most recent Votecount at the time of asking (post 39)
Maxous (3) – Amor, Thor665, Nobody Special
SubzeroSith (1) – Surye
and 3 others at 1
so...
3. Learn to read vote counts.

The POST MOAR Votecount

With 17 players alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

nhammen (2) – Pine, Toon Fighter
Pine (1) - Wraith

(this actually became a 2 because Maxous moved right before you did)

SubzeroSith (1) – Surye (you made this a 2)
Maxous (3) – Amor, Thor665, Nobody Special[/color]

So you had 2 options to make a wagon a 3 and one to make it a 4 and you decided what was most needed was no opinion or force on those wagons and instead you'd needle at SubZero.
Why?
Also - learn to read vote counts

So, the same case as is against Toon, then. I'm starting to think this isn't as much of a tell as is assumed. However, the wagons were more noticeable at the time Silver did this, so if anyone is scum from this tell, it is more likely to be silver than Toon.



----- bottom of page 5 -----
Sorry about the slow catch up. Finals are over, so I should have more time. Although, as previously stated, will be grading all day tomorrow. More to come later.

[silverbullet999]

-Sub

Silver, seriously think about this. You re-voted me because mastin jokingly said I'm a town read. This was literally you entire justification for voting me.

False, I voted you initially because of how important you wanted to make your initial vote. Unvoted you when mastin went "Sub's scum, seriously" because I believed mastin to have a heavy scum read on you... and from the past... that's not good. He then cleared it up so I threw my vote back on you. Further I've stated very slight scum slips you've done, have told you that I disliked you rising to defend max (though you try to paint it like I did the same exact thing when I did not) and your overall misrepresentations.

and you asked a fairly inane question in response and expected said question to be answered before you could do any more scum hunting.

Fairly inane is completely your opinion and your opinion alone. Furthermore, I'm not allowed to wait for a response and see how it's responded to before moving further? I'm not allowed to attempt to attain information from a question.. and then respond with further questions after a response if needed?

You haven't even done scum hunting since, you've just voted based on what mastin says.

This is completely false. Are you really telling me that my questions to you and max are me just dancing in the air having a good ol time?

And to answer silver's question:

Fun fact: You missed a few questions

HOW THE FUCK IS THAT A STRAWMAN!?

Why are you rising to defend max so quickly

[quadz08]

The Votecount Far, Far, Away

With 17 players alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

jmurph3 (0) –
silverbullet999 (2) – Maxous, SubzeroSith
mastin2 (2) - Toon Fighter, Nobody Special
Wraith (0) -
Amor (3) – nhammen, Surye, Thor665
nhammen (0) –
DeityKabuto (0) -
Pine (3) – Wraith, jmurph3, DeityKabuto
MrZepher (0) -
Surye (0) -
Nobody Special (0) -
Thor665 (1) – Knight of Cydonia
Uite (0) -
SubzeroSith (2) – mastin2, silverbullet999
Toon Fighter (2)– Pine, Amor
Maxous (0) –
Knight of Cydonia (0) –

Not Voting (2) –Uite, MrZepher

Deadline is May 18th at 4:00 PM Pacific Time.

Thor will be V/LA from May 12 – May 15.

Prod checks incoming.

[quadz08]

There are no prods to be had. <3

[SubzeroSith]

No joke, I'm not quite sure if silver is serious or if he's trolling. For the sake of your IQ, I hope you're trolling.

False, I voted you initially because of how important you wanted to make your initial vote.

So me feeling like a vote with real reasoning (I explained it in quite some detail) is better than a meaningless RVS vote is scummy. Hmm.

Unvoted you when mastin went "Sub's scum, seriously" because I believed mastin to have a heavy scum read on you

Troll? If not, then why would you UNvote me because another player thinks I'm scum?

He then cleared it up so I threw my vote back on you.

And what, exactly, do his unexplained and so far fairly worthless opinions matter to your scum hunting? More trolling?

Fairly inane is completely your opinion and your opinion alone.

My opinion that ice cream is delicious and that herring is disgusting is my opinion and my opinion alone. It just so happens to be shared with a vast majority of the world. I wouldn't be surprised if others here looked through your ISO and likewise found pointless questions that lacked scum hunting value.

Furthermore, I'm not allowed to wait for a response and see how it's responded to before moving further? I'm not allowed to attempt to attain information from a question.. and then respond with further questions after a response if needed?

If you have a groundbreaking point that makes or breaks a case you have that requires responding to, then yes absolutely. If you're asking nearly pointless questions that get glossed over because they have almost zero significance to the game, and then refusing to participate further until said questions are answered then you are probably scum.

Are you really telling me that my questions to you and max are me just dancing in the air having a good ol time?

No, but I'm telling you that you aren't really doing any effective scum hunting. You're mostly getting butt hurt and asking pointless questions.

Fun fact: You missed a few questions

Fun fact: the questions were pretty dumb and my answering them only points to how scummy you are. I didn't even feel them worth responding to but fine.

HOW THE FUCK IS THAT A STRAWMAN!?

You pointed out something I said that wasn't painting you a scummy, just irritating. You then focused a fair amount on it. You're discrediting me and ad homineming me because I pointed out something irritating about you. Just in case you don't actually know what a straw man defense is, it is taking the weakest point of the argument and attempting to weaken or discredit the entire argument on the basis of its weakest point without adequately responding to the more serious matters. You did that

exactly

.

Why are you rising to defend max so quickly

I never rose to defend Max. I rose to smack down your terrible posting and scum hunt you. There's a HUGE difference. Your post calling him out was absolutely HORRIBLY scummy. I didn't even really defend Max, I just pointed out where you were wrong.

My views of you being irritating may not be shared by the entirety of this hydra. You're getting on ICE's nerves, though.

[mastin2]

You know, you two really aren't doing a good job of convincing me I'm wrong about the whole bussing thing.

[silverbullet999]

-Subzero... or one that does not read

Troll? If not, then why would you UNvote me because another player thinks I'm scum?

I explained this.. There Will Be Bloodshed for the 20th time.

And what, exactly, do his unexplained and so far fairly worthless opinions matter to your scum hunting? More trolling?

Glance at There Will Be Bloodshed and all your answers will be revealed. Again this is not that hard.

I wouldn't be surprised if others here looked through your ISO and likewise found pointless questions that lacked scum hunting value.

And I wouldn't be surprised if people read your iso and found you to be a prick. This is an absolutely worthless response designed to more or less piss me off isn't it.

If you're asking nearly pointless questions that get glossed over because they have almost zero significance to the game,

First off they weren't pointless nor were they glanced over. Max replied in his very next post if you bothered to read at all. Second there is significance in it even if you wish to just not give a shit about it... which in itself holds significance.

This one's important

Fun fact: the questions were pretty dumb and my answering them only points to how scummy you are. I didn't even feel them worth responding to but fine.

If my questions are dumb and you answering them shows me to be even MORE scummy. Why the fuck would they NOT be worth responding to? Especially when you feel i'm scum. What kind of shitty town are you to not want to pursue someone you think is scum unless your scum and... oh... now it makes sense.

Also important

No, but I'm telling you that you aren't really doing any effective scum hunting. You're mostly getting butt hurt and asking pointless questions.

Now you are switching from. "You haven't even done scum hunting since, you've just voted based on what mastin says." TO "oh your scum hunting but it's not effective at all". If i'm not doing any scumhunting at all then it's impossible to be any degree of effective at it. Thank you scum for these contradictions.

You did that exactly.

Bullshit, I commented on the rest of that post but I'm telling ya I don't appreciate how much of a dick your being. There was literally no reason to throw that in there except to insult/piss me off. Just like the quote above.

I didn't even really defend Max, I just pointed out where you were wrong.

Wrong or not, Max could have easily pointed that out. You took it upon yourself to comment on it before letting Max even respond. This in itself is defending. It's like me saying hah I know scum is Steve and Tom and I ask everyone to stfu except for those two and you go no, that's shitty Tom is def town.

You're getting on ICE's nerves, though.

I couldn't give any less of a shit with the attitude you two have. (inb4 hey speaking of comments designed to piss you off)

[DeityKabuto]

I don't know what to say about Subzero's and silverbullet999's conversation, but I can infer that Subzero and silverbullet999 are most likely not scum buddies.

[Pine]

They could be bussing scumbuddies who have gotten in too deep and now have to "steer into the skid" in order to pull out.

Silver, on the other hand, is displaying a significant departure from the very pro-town behavior I'm used to from TWBB.

Unvote
Vote: Silver

[MrZepher]

I don't know what to say about Subzero's and silverbullet999's conversation, but I can infer that Subzero and silverbullet999 are most likely not scum buddies.

I concur with this statement....

[silverbullet999]

-Pine
Sub literally just said that him answering my questions would only point more to how scummy I am and he felt that doing that wasn't even worth it.
He said this when he believes me to be scum and voted me to be scum.

This is literally like the debate with me and Friend in TWBB except more extreme which commonly happens with me.

[Surye]

I'm so lost in this game. every post between silver and sub seemed useless and filler, and I can't grok what any of it means. Ugh.

[mastin2]

This is literally like the debate with me and Friend in TWBB except more extreme which commonly happens with me.

You and Friend were Town, so it was Town vs. Town.

You imply that this is the same, which'd mean it'd be town on town as well.

Yet your vote clearly indicates knowledge to the contrary, that you're thinking SubSith is scum.

Small contradiction, but noteworthy enough.

[silverbullet999]

-Mastin
Except I've had arguments just like this as town vs town and town vs scum and scum vs town (I don't think I've ever had one with scum vs scum.) One of my newbie games (I'll find it if you request) I argue heavily with someone to this extreme, if not further and he was scum but no one listened to me, I ended up getting nk'ed and he survived to end game (though his partner saved him rather nicely).

I could also argue with pine that there really was nothing else pro-town (I mainly did nothing or followed THB for most of the game except for endgame) i did in TWBB except for everyone (especially scum) saying i'm town and Pine knew I was town from the get go since he was scum so I could also state he had confirmation bias from that which is clouding his view but I didn't really feel like getting into it.

@all
Why does noone else find this comment from Sub

Fun fact: the questions were pretty dumb and my answering them only points to how scummy you are. I didn't even feel them worth responding to but fine.

Interesting to say the least.

[Knight of Cydonia]

I do find it interesting that Sub's actions somehow make you scummy. Fairly sure one of you is scum, just no idea which one. Both slinging as much crap around as the other.

[SubzeroSith]

If my questions are dumb and you answering them shows me to be even MORE scummy. Why the fuck would they NOT be worth responding to?

They were minute and pointless. It isn't as if I don't have enough reason to think you're scum.

Now you are switching from. "You haven't even done scum hunting since, you've just voted based on what mastin says." TO "oh your scum hunting but it's not effective at all".

No, you're misinterpreting the situation. In my eyes, attempting scum hunting or pretending to scum hunt is pretty much the same thing as not scum hunting. They're both scummy.

[mastin2]

Hey, guys, quick question--
Does Silver have a meta against bussing? (I mean, there are some players who don't bus. Like me.)
...No?
...Okay, then, how about DarthYoshi? No meta against bussing?
...Alright, then, how about ICEninja? Is he against bussing?

...Yeah. Unless any of the above were "yes", then I have one final question for you guys:

WTF MAKES YOU THINK THAT ONLY

ONE

OF THEM IS SCUM? >_<

Bussing's the new norm. This looks a lot like bussing.

Sure, I suppose it's possible only one of 'em is scum, but it's not CERTAIN that only one is scum. It's pretty much certain AT LEAST one of them is scum, but

not

certain that ONLY one of them is--that's what bussing is for, people! Especially mutual bussing--to make people think "nah, only one of 'em could POSSIBLY be scum after they fought like that..."

(Still need to read, though this is again what I am seeing: bussing. That's what it looks like. Not town-on-town. Not town-on-scum. Scum-on-scum.)

[Pine]

*anti-bussing high five*

The fervor with which Silver insisted he'd never had a scum vs scum argument (implying he never would) seemed forced.

[SubzeroSith]

Mastin, I have two completed games here as scum. In neither of them did I bus a scumbuddy on D1.

I also think bickering with Silver has reached an impasse. If he's town, his play sure doesn't show it. If he's scum (which I suspect), let's lynch him and move on.

-DY

[Amor]

Nothing like a good old-fashioned slapfight. To be honest most of the SZS/Silver is semantics and "You're scum!" "Are not!" so I don't think it's really revealed too much other than that both are eager to fight back against accusations instead of slinking away like, say, Toon Fighter is trying to do.

With Amor, it's mostly gut (Sub has some gut in it as well) BUT I don't like the way you take Thor's "coaching" and Maxous' 122 and blatantly misrep them.
Also the stated reason for you unvote on KoC wasn't good.

No one seems to agree with me about Knight so...

Unvote
Vote: Toon Fighter

reads as: This wagon isn't going to kick off. Let's hop onto one that'll probably go through.
Of course this assuming you're scum, which I'm not sure what the likelyhood of that is yet.
Probably somewhat likely at this time and place.

Just as a note, I'm not voting yet because I don't think they need votes on them yet, or at least not from me if that makes sense.

There's no point in leaving a lone vote on one person all day while someone you find almost as scummy has a significant wagon. I had gotten as much pressure as I could out of that vote, so with a KoC wagon not seeming likely I wanted to use my vote to actually influence who gets lynched. This isn't that hard to understand -- your last line suggests that you know there's more to voting than just putting a vote down on your #1 suspect.

Agree. Amor, what specifically are you referring to when you say his "gameplay as a whole is suspicious"?

Just look at his ISO. Knight refuses to take a position on more than one occasion, his only scumhunting is latching onto a comment of mine, and then he goes back to posting drivel like telling Uite not to lurk. He seems like classic low-key scum hoping to coast by through not saying much of anything, and so far he seems to be succeeding. (Pine also fits this mold to a lesser extent.)

[silverbullet999]

-Pine

The fervor with which Silver insisted he'd never had a scum vs scum argument (implying he never would) seemed forced.

No Pine... I was stating fact, in most games I get into arguments like this, in most of them I'm town, in one of them I was scum but it was more or less me just saying "bullshit!" without any reasons cause I just didn't care much at that point in winning. I've been scum all of 3 games that I remember of, one I got night killed day 1, another I replaced out of early, and a third my partner literally lynched himself day 1 (I got lynched day 2 though I had ample opportunity to make a recover, but just didn't care to do it since my partner hammered himself).

-Sub

No, you're misinterpreting the situation. In my eyes, attempting scum hunting or pretending to scum hunt is pretty much the same thing as not scum hunting. They're both scummy.

So if a player is bad at scumhunting, he's purposely doing so and is scum?

They were minute and pointless. It isn't as if I don't have enough reason to think you're scum.

Then why don't you state these reasons.
----
If you all want to believe that me and sub are a scum team bussing you can go ahead since it results in sub hopefully being dead. If I'm going first I'm fine with it but regardless of flip you take sub the next day.

[nhammen]

-Max

Looks to be active lurking.

yes... cause i haven't been asking questions... nor answering questions posted to me...

Only once the wagon on you started. The only questions are A) defense against Thor, and B) asking KoC to justify his coaching comment, which had already been asked.

-Thor

So you had 2 options to make a wagon a 3 and one to make it a 4 and you decided what was most needed was no opinion or force on those wagons and instead you'd needle at SubZero.
Why?

I was going Strictly by the votecount posted at the time (I'm LAZY!) I liked (or found suspicious) how Sub emphasized that his vote was "important" so to speak

The votecount posted at the time had me at 2 votes. Why didn't you vote me?

avoiding commiting himself with opinons

So I didn't find sub suspicous nor did I state this anywhere? Really now? Show me how I have no opinion of anything..

I just isoed you... and at the time of the quoted post, you have stated one extremely weak argument against Sub, and have never explained any scum motivation behind it. I didn't even realize it was a suspicion rather than a joke until the 5th or so time I read it. So... you are really failing here. Thanks for pointing this out by daring us to iso you.

If I get voted for bandwaggoning in RVS, this guy should too.

FoS: Thor

*Insert the sound of my jaw hitting the floor here*
Ok, just in case you don't know, you were voted for claiming to bandwagon, but not bandwagoning.

@Toon - You're being run up for failing at bandwagoning. I'm Charlie Sheen over here. That's the difference. Also, an FOS on a scum point you apparently disagree with? Yeah, way to look townie. (aw, crud, am I coaching again?)

Good point on his FOS. However, this seems more like bad play than scummy play to me. This may be my gut speaking...

@Nhammen: When you get back, would like to hear your thoughts on the attention being thrown on Silver, especially given the 'fake scumhunting' belief you hold about Pine.

Well, I find silver to be somewhat scummy, especially given his responses. He is on par with Amor in terms of scumminess at this point in my reread. Also, my 'what' belief about Pine?!? I have no idea what you are talking about. I even isoed myself to see if I had said something that I somehow forgot, but couldn't find what you speak of.

@SZS: It's less a "hunch" at this point in time, more of a "fool me twice, hang on me. fool me twice, hang on you" IGMEOY

But here are the games:

There Will Be Bloodshed
NY118

In my wiki, look at my 5 or so most recent games. All of them have exhibited this type of lurking, because grad school has kept me busy. Please note: in the two games you quoted, I made intentional use of this meta for lurking that I have. I was lurking AND playing to my town meta. Also note: I hope to be more active in this game, since my grad school workload will be much lighter over the Summer... hopefully.

• KOC and Subzero are likely to be town.
  I think Jmurph is town.
  Ever so slightly leaning town on Wraith.
  nhammen and Mr.Zepher look like town.
  I'm unsure about Thor- I'll see after a couple of more posts.
  VERY unsure about Amor
  Pine looks slightly scummy
  Toon fighter seems like mafia - quite interested in his next post

Everybody else is null due to not having enough content to judge them by apart from:

Unvote

VOTE: Silverbullet

Looks to be active lurking.

Don't like this post. Why make a list of reads if they're almost all going to be uncertain or couched in weak language ("looks slightly", "seems like", "I think")? This is trying to look active and content-full without taking much of a stance.

Wow! Something from Amor that I fully agree with! This is a surprising turn of events.


----- bottom of page 6 -----

[Toon Fighter]

gonna be V/LA for the weekend

[DeityKabuto]

I guess it's time we decide who's more scummier, Silver or Sub. I will expect the rest of you guys read thoroughly examine their actions, and I will do the same. Failing to do so, reads Anti-town.

[mastin2]

I guess it's time we decide who's more scummier, Silver or Sub. I will expect the rest of you guys read thoroughly examine their actions, and I will do the same. Failing to do so, reads Anti-town.

Both?

But, yeah. SubSith more than Silver.

Since I've been sick, the time I was supposed to be using reading up on the game in more detail was instead spent sleeping the cold away, so unfortunately, I still have yet to even start my reread. :/ But when it's finished, I'll see about my conclusions.