Newbie 1104 -- Game over

[Espeonage]

/conforming to confirm.

@ Newbies, Welcome to the game.
@ Raz, Another game together, hiya.
@ TS, Don't policy lynch me.

@ IC Post: If you have any questions and TS isn't around I am open to answering them. I may not be all that good of a player but I am experienced so I should be able to help you out.

@ Everyone seeing as it is really usefu in a newbie game.

Questions to be answered,
1. What, if any, experience do you have at mafia?
2. What is your timezone?
3. How often can we expect you to be posting?

That's all from me.

Good Luck.

[Espeonage]

EBWOP (Edit By way OF Post)

Forgot something. It is the SE's duty to say: No matter how helpful the IC is, it isn't a town tell. Thanks. Seen way to many Newbie games fall to pieces because of that.

[Espeonage]

I'll answer my own questions, someone is bound to ask me to.

1. I have a fair bit of experience. I have been playing mafia for just under 2 years. I started off site, came here and have been playing here since december 2009. I have somewhere in the vicinity of 50ish games including games both on and off site.

2. GMT-10 aka Eastern Australia.

3. I usually try to get on the site everyday, weekends can sometimes be a bit iffy. I will usually make posts in relation to how fast the game is running.

@ f_a: The game hasn't started yet. :p

[Espeonage]

@ TS, never mind.

Vote: CC

OMGUS

[Espeonage]

No, Australia is always way behind on TV shows.

@ Q about username: It is deliberately mispelled. <3 Espeon

Unvote, Vote: gbevil

Buddy attempt noted.

[Espeonage]

*facepalm*

OK, this game needs some experience. I'm here. /ego

@ f_a: Goodposting but TS isn't scum. Not at this stage. Bandwagoning to L-1 is a good tactic to get information. CC's vote looks bad but I don't read him as scum either.

@ NEWBIES: It isn't a bad thing to BW someone to L-1. It is bad if you are inviting the lynch or if you hammer out of place. Pressure is what makes information come out. Remember that.

More when I go back and do more than skim the posts.

@ TS: CC has said enough, get back on the oter wagon we can build pressure. Come back to CC later when we have sqeezed as much out of day one as we can before we decide a lynch. K?

Top scum read other than vote is CC. Just so everyone knows where I stand. And it's not because of that vote. I'm not going to give reasoning yet. Want to see if the scummy actions are a trend or early game nerves.

[Espeonage]

yeah these take a while. very daunting. Remember no rush. @ TS, I've seen newbies ask if they should claim after being put to L-2 on the first page. Anything is possible.

Unvote

Need to do a reread. Not sold on gb = town though.

[Espeonage]

Razgriz hasn't posted in the other game we have together either.

[Espeonage]

Razgriz has played three games. Not very experienced. By definition SEs have just played at least two games.

@ gb: Welcome to what is known as lurking. he will be replaced if he doesn't show. Best forget about him.

In other news I have yet to reread.

[Espeonage]

@Espeonage - Is lurking a frequent problem on this forum? It seems like a jerk move to sign up for a game and then decide not to show up...

Kinda not really, but that is what replacements are for.

...no comment...

He could have irl issues or any number of other explainations.

[Espeonage]

V/LA for the rest of the weekend

[Espeonage]

Playing Poker. I'll have a squizz back soon.

[Espeonage]

Getting pissed about every night this week/end. I may come in and do some drunk reads. This is the game I am most behind in so forgive if I haven't been giving it enough attention. stuvac is in a week so I should be up to date and on top of things pretty soon.

[Espeonage]

catchup coming in two days. That will be last day of uni semester.

[Espeonage]

Just got home. Tomorrow I have nothing on.

Have drunk too much to do reads. Have drunk too little to do drunk reads.

[Espeonage]

Here, have a bit of time before I have to go to the optometrist. Will start doing a reread now.

[Espeonage]

I've never been able to do rereads. I'll start paying attention from now. May do iso's on the top towns just to make sure I'm not putting trust in people I shouldn't.

[Espeonage]

Vote: Haylen

Need to do some meta hunting. Can I have a scum newbie game link from you please. I think I might have caught something.

[Espeonage]

I can't exactly put my finger on what it is. And there are a few periods of it in the game haylen linked to.

Read her iso keeping in mind that she is experienced with newbies and that she knows that newbies are impressionable. From my time playing as an SE (I have played many games as an SE) I often find that when the IC is scum they go out of their way to show wiki town tells or things that make them appear trustworthy while ignoring and more subtle scumtells they may be giving off. This feels like one of those times.

I'd like to see whta others think on the matter.

I kinda feel like this is really weak and in a way it is. I've just seen it quite a few times. In the case of Haylen, being an IC but not being an IC I just think she is attempting to come accross as a helpful townie but going completely overboard to the point where it is supposed to cement her as town and somewhat of a town leader. This is definantly a big scumtell if it is true as it is the perfect way to get newbies on side.

Opinions? Calls for clarification?

[Espeonage]

Also, fluff is a scumtell.

[Espeonage]

No I haven't.

@ fa: noone in particular.

[Espeonage]

I would agree, however it is an amazingly successful scum tactic in newbie games.

[Espeonage]

Yep TS, you're being made redundant.

[Espeonage]

Well that is where all of what I find about her scummy is.

May want to read it if you want to lynch me. discrediting my case goes a fair way in helping get me lynched.

[Espeonage]

Post 1: that was at the haylen comment.
2. I'll have a look.

[Espeonage]

-shrug- Was probably something that someone else said. CC did have a wagon at that point in time.

[Espeonage]

No idea. You have read more of the game than I have. I did a bit of looking and noticed that the person Haylen replaced had been parked elsewhere the whole day. Looking at the fact that the lynchee was scum that usually points to buddy not wanting to get involved.

Figured I'd have a look at the iso of Haylen seeing as she replaced a lurker. That was when I noticed the walls. Exhibit A of why this is anti town to begin with is your own reaction to them. Add to that how impressionable newbies are makes a fairly good case if you ask me.

[Espeonage]

I'll have a look.

[Espeonage]

None. You're coming across as town though.

No. I haven't done a reread. As I said I did a quick look back over votecounts and it led me to Haylen.

[Espeonage]

TS is town, zMuffin is probably town. Also have a strong town read on f_a. Will probably go along wit a lynch on most other people if people post convincing cases.

[Espeonage]

I did. I stand by it.

[Espeonage]

There is more to it than that.

The basic premise is that walls of that length are unnecessary. Haylen knows this but did them anyway. What does that tell you. Bear in mind that newbies are notorious for thinking helpfulness and length of posts are scum tells. I've played alot of newbies games, I know that is the way they react. At the very least what Haylen has done is anti town and she's lucky there isn't a vig. However given it is a newbie game on top of that, it is screaming scum to me.

And what town tells is she giving off?

I have issue with the length of her posting and the effect she knows it will have.

In the last game she made and used graphs. in this one she has debates with herself. Both completely unnecessary outside of making newbies eat out of her hand.

[Espeonage]

No, but I will today though.

[Espeonage]

There is one post. And even that hints at the possibility of inside info. I'm liking my vote more now.

[Espeonage]

Not sure

[Espeonage]

Frostbite was so lurkerish there was no space for him to be scared about being bussed. There is also a Mafia QT where they could have discussed it beforehand. Also look at the tone. That post says to me that Otolia is trying to setup town points for her buddy. You see what i'm seeing there?

[Espeonage]

yours was the same point as muffin here.

[Espeonage]

noragar is a town from me. squizzing his iso leads me to either believe he has a heap more composure than even the best newbies or he is town.

Eh, may as well keep going with iso's.

[Espeonage]

Unvote

VOTE: Haylen

So who do we go after if Haylen flips town, Esp?

Also this post is pretty scummy. Still leaning town on you though.

[Espeonage]

Ok, just did f_a's iso quickly.

There are a couple of interesting things. There is a serious amount of IIoA. Now for a newbie that isn't so bad. The comments on the hammer post and just after are interesting. It also takes a bit of time before she actually moves her vote to otolia, who is supposedly her top scumspect for a bit of time beforehand. Comments post lynch look pretty bad too.

Also makes an interesting comment about conciseness being a scumtell. This while not strictly accurate is adds to her IIoA and large posting. Might be something there. In the possible scum group.

[Espeonage]

Scum actually do buddy town. Very useful tool. There is a such thing as an alliance. They can be both pro town and pro scum depending on who is in it and other factors.

I'll have a look at the post. I liked noragar's defence of himself.

[Espeonage]

I'm now interested in TS's iso.

Unvote

FoS: TS

I will be having a look at your iso next.

[Espeonage]

Reveiw your posting over the last two pages.

[Espeonage]

You seem really jittery now that the lynches are up in the air. You say bad stuff about noragar then after I say nah he looks town you tell haylen to vote me. Plus you keep asking for your iso as if you can't want to see what haylen thinks and wether or not you are going to get away with what you have posted.

[Espeonage]

The tone of your posts. You either sound like an excited little kid or a jittery scum.

[Espeonage]

Stuvac = exams in a week

[Espeonage]

Everyone in stuvac. Today is a hard study day so I probably wont get to looking at the isos I wanted to.

[Espeonage]

Actually now is a prime time to get a buddy. There are alot of days left and no scumbud to fall back on.

[Espeonage]

Ok TS is town despite the anti-town lapse of late.

Unvote

Need to work out where my vote should go.

[Espeonage]

TOWN

Noragar
Twistedspoon

NEUTRAL

Morthas - Yet to do iso
gbevil - Yet to do iso

LEANING SCUM (In order of wanting to lynch)

forest_air
Haylen
zMuffin

Vote: f_a

[Espeonage]

It's not a good idea for the doc to claim this early.

[Espeonage]

I did mention it I believe. I don't vocalize everything that goes on in my head. The list is my conclusions.

[Espeonage]

I'm a VT, Feel free to hammer.

[Espeonage]

A combination of the things you have said and how you said them. I kinda went back and forth in your iso for a bit. Things sort of jumped out as scummy when considered together.

[Espeonage]

There isn't a case. it's a POE.

[Espeonage]

I've been onsite, just not in this tread. No kill argument invalid.
Had to catch up in this game. Waited until the new day to do so.

We probably have a doc.

[Espeonage]

That was a point at the no kill argument. I have been active onsite.

[Espeonage]

it is much easier to post in a game you are up to date with then spend the hours or more it takes to get up to date. I do other things while I am on the site you know. It's not really like I can sit down and try to catch up when more stuff is going to happen in that time.

[Espeonage]

@Muffin: it's called a reread.

Basically f_a is scummy for identifying her no.1 scumtell. Then going to the utmost effort to avoid giving that tell off. Fluff in an of itself is a minor scumtell, but when you have explicitly said that having shortish posts is what you look for when you look for scum it takes on a new meaning. If you go and do here iso you should see that a majority of the material there is actually fluff.

At this point in the game where we have very little to go on having managed to lynch a scum and her top buddy suspect giving off town tells left right and center, I think this is a valid wagon to see where it goes.

[Espeonage]

No there is a fairly important difference.

1. I haven't been posting fluff. I just haven't been posting. Big difference there. Truth be told I haven't even been active lurking but that isn't the point.
2. Actually no. I have nothing against Haylen posting walls. I have issue with her posting of excessive walls when she herself should no it isn't needed. And length in and of itself isn't what is scummy about f_a. What is scummy is how much of those walls is fluff. I was impressed with f_a's posting before I went back and did a reread and actually took a look at the content.

[Espeonage]

EBWOP

@ Q at top of post: Yes

[Espeonage]

You are free to not agree with the tells I point out. That doesn't mean that the tells aren't there.

The second point makes me think you're missing the point. I'll try to explain it. Think of lurking. Lurking is generally only perceived to be scummy if it is active lurking. This is similar. Posting walls isn't scummy. Posting walls of fluff is scummy. This is made all the more scummy by f_a backhandedly trying to buy herself town points by going, "Oh this is scummy, look at what I am doing whatever I can to avoid."
There is a step between doing the thing and showing why it is scummy. You are missing where I am taking that step.

I'll go through f_a's iso and pick out something to show you what I mean.

As for fluff. Fluff is a broad term that encompasses IIoA, repeating yourself and any other method used to make posts longer than they need to be. Conciseness is a towntell. That doesn't mean short posting, it means posts where everything is important. Fluff is anything you can take out of a post that wouldn't effect the overall result of the post.

What you pointed out is an off-topic prod dodge. tbf going off-topic in a post is an example of fluff. The difference was I'm not using it to make my posts longer.

[Espeonage]

No it means I didn't have time to catch up. I've gotten alot of disrespect in the past as a result of replacing out instead of waiting until the night and catching up.

[Espeonage]

True. if you go back you will see that I instead put time aside and did iso's.

? If you're asking about me posting an example well obv not yet.

[Espeonage]

I never did a full reread.

I did isos instead because I could actually do them in limited time.

[Espeonage]

I think I didn't got anything for my 8th birthday. My mum had all her money stolen when she went out Christmas shopping. If it wasn't when I was 8 then it was when I was seven.

[Espeonage]

You got opinions on anyone else?

[Espeonage]

Ok you know what. In the interests of pushing this game forward. I know that I am town. (Obv.) I know the only other possible lynch today is noragar. I may not think that noragar is scum, however logic dictates that from my perspective he is a better lynch.

Unvote, Vote: Noragar

[Espeonage]

Noone is going to follow me in a Haylen, f_a or zMuffin lynch.

Have you read the MD thread on compromises? I'm making one now. Town has two, maybe three mislynches left. Lynching myself or noragar isn't that bad of a thing at the moment. Suffice it that you have my reads and decide on a lynch. This town needs another flip. Seeing who attacked the lynchee and when, along with another flip should help clear up the game a bit.

[Espeonage]

Of course it's opportunistic. Look at the deadline. There are only two possible lynches today. Go through my thought process with me. Two lynches. I know the lynch on me is a mislynch. so I vote the other possible lynch. Why, would you do something different in my position?

[Espeonage]

Remind of this page postgame. I have a lesson for the newbies. Not posting now as I know I'll be misrepped.

[Espeonage]

Because it will be taken out of context. And seen as WIFOM which the town will get caught up in when they don't need to. You can see it at the end. It has no bearing on the game.

[Espeonage]

My birthday is in may. And I just realised.

You're an IC and I'm not and I have been here for over a year longer than you have.

[Espeonage]

2 until mylo

[Espeonage]

ebwop: forgot to take off one of the scums.

7/1
5/1
3/1

So three until 4 man mylo.

[Espeonage]

Aww damn. I have a friend who is doing forensic entomology.

[Espeonage]

Mothras is the last person.

[Espeonage]

Anyway, there's still a bit of time before the deadline. I want to do one last read tomorrow to see if anything I find really changes my mind about Esp (or, more specifically, makes me think someone else is more likely to be scum). Truthfully, I don't think I will find anything that will change my mind, but Esp has been staring at me with puppy dog eyes, guilt tripping me. Damn you, Esp, damn you.

What is this post?

If noragar turns up town. And you guys lynch me. Then take this one down next. he gives me not so happy feelings.

[Espeonage]

And I would suggest the other. Obv. So lynchies plox.

[Espeonage]

gb, you gave yourself away a bit towards the end. Were i in lylo I probably would have started pressuring you. Not sure if i would have voted you but I definitely would have pressured you.

Also, NEVER trust logic in three man lylo. It's void.

As for the lesson. I'll take a look. Can't remember exactly. I can remember it was important though so I will post as soon as I remember.

[Espeonage]

Also. About to nom gb for best Newbie.

[Espeonage]

Then go to the thread and Nth it.

[Espeonage]

I'M SORRY HAYLEN -hugs-