Newbie 1103: Just Another Chaotic Town (Game Over)

[Equinox]

Vote Count 1.05

Meransiel (2) - Miss JJ, TripMyWire
Scumhunter (2) - Quilford, Meransiel
FireStorm (1) - Elsa von Spielburg
Staeg (1) - FireStorm
Thor665 (1) - Scumhunter

Not Voting (2) - Thor665, Staeg

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

The deadline is Wednesday, June 1, 2011, at 11:59 PM EDT (UTC-4).

[Quilford]

Also I would expect more frustration from town about to be hammered than I saw in Scumhunter, but I think this could probably be put down to disbelief in someone hammering.

EBWOP: YO EQUINOX WHAT UP

[Staeg]

It isn't. But you don't know whether there will be a hammer or not, or whether there will be a claim or not when you put someone on L-1. What must've happened at some point was that newbies gained infamy from hammering or claiming early and a kind of taboo around placing people at L-1 evolved.

Well, I and Mer specifically stated not to hammer, and I stated not to claim. I don't think a newbie who reads the game would do either of these.

[Meransiel]

@Staeg: Exactly the point. We need not consider the people we're playing with as goldfish with no skill. Plus, it's not so hard to blacklist a player who is stupid enough to hammer Day 4 while having a pro-town role.

Also I would expect more frustration from town about to be hammered than I saw in Scumhunter, but I think this could probably be put down to disbelief in someone hammering.

EBWOP: YO EQUINOX WHAT UP

Not really disbelief as much as arrogance. And, as has been stated, resorting to insults is pointless and indicative that you have nothing constructive to say.

[FireStorm]

Anyway, FireStorm just ninja'd me, and I have to congratulate her for that!

*him.

So:

@Staeg: The "town-why-the-heck-are-you-lynching-me" card can be played by both town and mafia. Do you deny this?
@FS: Why are you voting Staeg over Quilford and me? From your post up there, it feels like your reason is gut.

This is partially correct. Yes, there was some gut feeling to my vote, but also other reasons.

[Meransiel]

What other reasons?

[FireStorm]

What other reasons?

This is gonna sound scummy, but I'll choose to wait until it completes its purpose before saying the reson for my vote.

[Staeg]

What other reasons?

This is gonna sound scummy, but I'll choose to wait until it completes its purpose before saying the reson for my vote.

It isn't.

[Meransiel]

What other reasons?

This is gonna sound scummy, but I'll choose to wait until it completes its purpose before saying the reson for my vote.

It isn't.

I don't understand. What isn't?

[Staeg]

It isn't gonna sound scummy. It didn't sound scummy.

[TripMyWire]

I'm doing this from my outdated phone while I wait for my friend... and this phone is difficult to work with so I'll be brief until I get to a computer.

@Meransiel... No, I didn't think that the L-1 on Scumhunter was deserved. That was the whole point of my post and vote changing.

From what I've gathered from you guys it seems like putting someone at L-1 isn't as serious as I thought.

@Firestorm... The thing about this game is that it's all about discussion and generating content to base decisions on. I don't know how you were taught but if you come in every once in a while with a small sentence with no real content or observations then it doesn't help us. I was just trying to get you more involved so there would be more discussion. I don't believe in the "wiki worship" or in any rule book and that stuff.... I have very little experience in this game or the "official" ways to play... but not adding anything to the discussion is not going to help us. And above all, we're here to have fun

Okay guys this post took me like 30 minutes to write. I'll post more when i get to my computer.

[Staeg]

I'm doing this from my outdated phone while I wait for my friend... and this phone is difficult to work with so I'll be brief until I get to a computer.

@Meransiel... No, I didn't think that the L-1 on Scumhunter was deserved. That was the whole point of my post and vote changing.

From what I've gathered from you guys it seems like putting someone at L-1 isn't as serious as I thought.

@Firestorm... The thing about this game is that it's all about discussion and generating content to base decisions on. I don't know how you were taught but if you come in every once in a while with a small sentence with no real content or observations then it doesn't help us. I was just trying to get you more involved so there would be more discussion. I don't believe in the "wiki worship" or in any rule book and that stuff.... I have very little experience in this game or the "official" ways to play... but not adding anything to the discussion is not going to help us. And above all, we're here to have fun

Okay guys this post took me like 30 minutes to write. I'll post more when i get to my computer.

The seriousness of a L-1 is dependent on the case. This was a semi-RVS wagon, so obviously a lynch/claim shouldn't be achieved.
While I agree that Fire isn't all too useful, spamming the thread with wall-posts isn't all too helpful, either.

[Miss JJ]

Wow, a lot to read. I'll make a post shortly.

[Miss JJ]

Okay, so first I want to say that L-1 may not be a big deal to some people but I still think it's too risky to do at this stage of the game. Who knows whether someone would hammer or not? We don't. Period. We can't control others' actions.

Staeg gave me some concerns with his "promise" that Scumhunter would be hammered but, in reading back on Staeg's posts, he did say he wouldn't mind being the target of a mini-wagon as long as he wasn't hammered prematurely:

Actually, I wouldn't mind a wagon on me (as long as I am not lynched prematurely).
Also, the Preview button is a kick in the balls for ninjas.

Which makes me think he didn't see it as a huge concern.


Firestorm makes me stratch my head with his promise to post and then silence. Also, his explanation of why he didn't makes no sense to me. Nor does this post:

Hmmm, I've read everything so far, and while I kinda want to vote Scumhunter for being scummy so far, I won't. That's only because I don't want to hammer when people still haven't seen the game.

(I believe Elsa already pointed this out as I am seeing as I go through the thread)


I'm not getting a scum read on Scumhunter. His posts seem to make sense to me and I just don't see anything standing out as scummy.


This post by Quilford raised my eyebrows:

Also TripMyWire and Meransiel's interactions seem town to me; pretty certain fingers would've been pointed harder if there was scum involved - instead it really just remained as friendly banter.

I assume he must be talking about TMW's vote of Meransiel....however, I don't agree with blanket statements like exactly how hard scum would point fingers. I also don't agree that if there is light banter going on the parties involved are probably town. Is he protecting one of them? Possibly.

Also this one:

Also I would expect more frustration from town about to be hammered than I saw in Scumhunter, but I think this could probably be put down to disbelief in someone hammering.

Don't agree here, either. I would have reacted the same way if I were Scumhunter.

Could be that Quil is trying too hard to keep the votes on Scumhunter by painting Meransiel as town and Scumhunter as scum, where I don't see his points carrying much weight, and I am not seeing Scumhunter as scum.


I still feel Meransiel's L-1 was premature and not warranted based on the post he referred to but I believe Meransiel when he says he doesn't feel it was such a big deal. I might disagree but still not feeling that makes him scum.


UNVOTE: Meransiel
VOTE: Quilford

@ Staeg. You mentioned insults/attacks. I may have missed it but can you point this out?

@ Firestorm. Can't wait to hear what you're holding back but I hope you post it soon.

[Quilford]

Miss JJ, I wasn't in fact talking about TMW's vote of Meransiel, and I see now that what I said was pretty vague. I was actually referring to their actions on Page 3.

Also I would expect more frustration from town about to be hammered than I saw in Scumhunter, but I think this could probably be put down to disbelief in someone hammering.

Don't agree here, either. I would have reacted the same way if I were Scumhunter.¹

Could be that Quil is trying too hard to keep the votes on Scumhunter by painting Meransiel as town and Scumhunter as scum, where I don't see his points carrying much weight, and I am not seeing Scumhunter as scum.²

¹ I think this can really be put down to playstyle. When I'm put at L-1 as a townie I get very frustrated indeed. I'll take a look at Scumhunter's meta and see if anything catches my eye.
² I'm not seeing Scumhunter as scum at the moment either; I didn't really expect his wagon to grow to L-1. I voted him for pressure and to see how he would react - we've got those reactions now and the bandwagon is thinning out. Now all that's left to do is analyse the reactions themselves.

Just in case I still have a vote on someone, UNVOTE: . I'll re-read a little later and check Scumhunter's meta; I'm warning you, however, I have exams up until Thursday, so

Mod, V/LA until Thursday

.

Noted. (Equinox)

[Miss JJ]

Thanks for the reply, Quil. I'll look at page 3 again as well as other posts. At this point my vote isn't a strong read on you, just the best read I have at this point.

[Thor665]

Wooosh - apologies for running late. You'll get to be my official second game caught up on.

Okay, let's get started with the basics;

tl:dr - this entire commentary block is all about introducing myself as the IC, blathering about my duties, and offering a basic idea of some of the strategy of the RVS. If this interests you, please read on (especially if this is your first time playing here) if not, feel free to skip.

Spoiler: IC Intro

===========================================================================================

Greetings,

I am Thor665 and I am the Inexperienced Challenged (IC) player of this group. What this means is first and foremost - I am here to play this game with you in a way that will show you what it is like to play on Mafiascum.net. I am here to win and should be treated as such.

My goals and the rules governing my actions are covered in this handy article: Being a good IC
That article is part of our amazing MafiaWiki System. I *highly* recommend this system as a good way to get your feet wet and to find out what a lot of the common abbreviations mean. There is a lot of play strategy discussed in there too. A lot of players consider that advice almost all outdated now. I don't recommend trying to run verbatim with anything there, but a lot of the basic advice is very good to at least be aware of as it can help you avoid blatant pitfalls as you become familiar with the game play here.

Now, as an IC I am here as a resource for you to ask questions of concerning game theory. I WILL NOT lie about game theory answers and will answer them to the best of my ability. I will also offer you the following quick pieces of advice;

1. Don't self vote. (there are really no points during a Newbie setup where this is a good idea, please avoid it however logical you may think it is)
2. This site frowns on lying if you are a vanilla town role. I strongly advise against lying if you have this role as usually it will only hurt town in the end.
3. It's a game - have fun.

We are now starting what is known as the RVS (random voting stage). We are in a low information period because scum already know who they are, and even have a rough idea of what power roles may or may not be in the game. It is now town's job to root them out. Because the start of the game leaves us with no information to start with generally the way to start is to begin voting and questioning other people to see if you can catch them doing something scummy (scummy actions being acts that a scum player is more likely to do then a town player).

Okay, I'm guessing (hoping...well, threateningly hoping) that by page 6 we're already done with the RVS. This is kind of fun because now I can give you an example of a replace in/catch up sort of post - this is basically a post to let the other player's learn about you as best you can when you've been missing/gone/just replaced into a game - they're all about the same thing.

I should muddle through this all tonight, though I may take a break in the middle of the read. Expect my next post to be big and wall-like. Expect a vote as well as lots of lame (brilliant) jokes/insights.

Finally - hullo to everyone I've played with before. I shall be lynching you soon

[TripMyWire]

While I agree that Fire isn't all too useful, spamming the thread with wall-posts isn't all too helpful, either.

Read what I've been writing to him: I'm not advocating spamming. I'm advocating discussion, observations, debate, etc... content. The stuff we need to play the game. If anyone were to be spamming then they'd probably be getting a lot of flak... and votes. He's been saying he'll do this and he'll do that... but... well... that's it. We're just waiting until he follows through. I am in no way attacking him or accusing him of being scum, just trying to encourage him.

[Quilford]

haha thor

remember when we owned (>_> <_<) in DH's game?

[Quilford]

spamming the thread with wall-posts isn't all too helpful, either.

what wall-posts?

[Thor665]

Page 1

Town read on Meransiel - aggressive early play and desire to drag game into reasoning are both town tells in my mind.
Slight scum vibe from TripMyWire, he's trying to avoid being the second vote on anyone for a reason methinks.

Page 2

Scumhunter has committed a pet tell of mine - slight town read only because I wasn't there going 'rawr'
Firestorm just admitted to playing in a way to avoid being thought of as scum as opposed to playing in a way to find scum. I'd be voting her or whoever the heck Meran was pressuring by this stage of the game.
Hmmm, Meran just proved he's not reading the game very well, that's a scumtell in my book. He's back to neutral (damn you Meran!)

TripMyWire is town, banking on it.

Page 3

This is so cute, Meran as town poo-bah on the font of wisdom While I will specifically note, nothing he says is 'wrong' I will add I disagree with a lot of it.
Ugh - a three man comedy routine extending RVS adfinitum. I'd be trying to get them all lynched at this stage. Why do I suspect Page 3 is a useless page?

Page 4

Post 87 from Staeg is the scummiest thing I've seen thus far - he takes time to ding JJ for using a bad towntell on Quil (aka not wanting Quil to be seen as town) and then sheeps after Quil and pressures Scumhunter on a wagon not based on any tell worth spit.
This post[/url by Miss JJ is...well, a sorta sad defense of a very shakey and weak tell. But, it is ALSO the single best explanation of a newbie in showing awareness about what tells really are.
Firestorm also fails at life on this page. (8.5 hours to say - I kinda want to vote Scumhunter, but won't...wheee!)
Firestorm and Staeg are my players of interest at the moment, I want one of them dead.
This Post...I...he...Staeg's best town motivated reason for his attack on Scum was to pressure him to get reactions...he then *immediately* baby-coddles him and tries to talk him through it without even getting a reaction from him. I do not like this, Staeg is my vote when this wall is over unless someone basically claims scum in the next two pages.
LOL Okay, I admit it, maybe I'm confirm biasing because I like his style. But seriously - town tell, right here.

Page 5

Sqweee! Eeeek! Run away, run away, a wagon is happening!
*sigh* I don't know about the rest of you but the wagon could have been handled better. If you're going to pressure someone up to L-1 you *have* to play the risk (even in a newbie, probably...) and let them stew there a touch to see how they respond. We get a little bit of protection from Trip and JJ, not a lot to go on. Elsa usually looks terrible to me, so I'm not happy with my read there. Looks like the Meraan wagon might have some steam though, interesting that he's the chosen scapegoat - was only I seeing the Staeg thing?

"It's always scummy to give weak or non-reasons to vote on someone."

^^^This was said in thread - oh dear gawd is this a misunderstanding of the reality of Mafia. (sorry Elsa, but, yeah...this isn't likely correct. Very few absolutes are.)

Hmmm, Elsa does dig into Staeg...eh, whatevs, town points for Elsa for seeing what I see. The Firestorm lurker vote is pretty weak though. Yeah, he sucks, but he isn't really a policy lynch worth much at a time we actually have a Meransel wagon chugging around, amirite?
This is actually a really clever tell. I'm not sure if I agree with it, but it is clever and shows honest scumhunting analysis - town points for Quilford.
Staeg "whoah, people are calling Scumhunter town? I'll make a huge post *defending me* for helping run him up and how I did it...now I'll unvote...I have no further direction to offer...yes...

Firestorm is probably town - maybe even a stronger read than Trip. Yes this does have to do with him voting Staeg, but no, it's not just because he's sheeping the voices in my head.

"No, what I did wasn't stupid. It was slapping the face of someone who was being reasonlessly arrogant about himself. And all you do is inflate that ego by admitting I was wrong (and stupid)."

@Meran - serious question - how much of the above is the heart and soul of the Scumhunter case for you currently?

This is gonna sound scummy, but I'll choose to wait until it completes its purpose before saying the reson for my vote.

A personal opinion of mine; "Scumtells that cannot be explained" are worth just as much as 'gut' except usually I feel they are worth less, because it's gut people aren't willing to stand personally behind. Also, I usually don't see too many tells that actually need to 'play themselves out more'.

Please feel free to prove me wrong on either of those, but...


In any case.

Quill, and Firestorm are prob town.

TMW and JJ, if scum, are at least half intelligent scum. I lean more townish on JJ of the pair. I strongly doubt they are scum together, I'd bet my beard on it.

Staeg looks really scummy.

Vote: Staeg

I'm a genius and very handsome, probably lots of people should follow this vote.

[Thor665]

remember when we owned (>_> <_<) in DH's game?

Yeah, though I'll add that's not a 'perfect' win because my wonderful and obv. town backside got deadified in that one.
That said - we totally ate scum's faces, good times.

Please continue buddying up to me by sheeping my vote

[Quilford]

oh it's tempting

based on the evidence in front of you, who would you suspect if Staeg flipped town?

[Quilford]

also scumhunter get back in here I dislike your disappearance now that your bandwagon has thinned out

[TripMyWire]

Hi Thor!
I've been going through your post and following along in the thread. This game is a bit of work.

Page 1
[...]
Slight scum vibe from TripMyWire, he's trying to avoid being the second vote on anyone for a reason methinks.

Not that it's relevant anymore since you then say "TripMyWire is town, banking on it." in your summary on page 2..... but I'm curious- how did you arrive at that from just page 1? Putting a second vote on someone wasn't even discussed... just not voting in one's first post. Perhaps you read that wrong? It's just the first time in this game (I think) someone's said they had a scum-feeling about me.

This Post...I...he...Staeg's best town motivated reason for his attack on Scum was to pressure him to get reactions...he then *immediately* baby-coddles him and tries to talk him through it

without even getting a reaction from him.

I do not like this, Staeg is my vote when this wall is over unless someone basically claims scum in the next two pages.

Are you implying that there is a possible partnership between those two? I'm not sure what the reaction part has to do with Staeg's scum level.

Looks like the Meraan wagon might have some steam though
[...]
Yeah, he sucks, but he isn't really a policy lynch worth much at a time we actually have a Meransel wagon chugging around, amirite?

Was it much of a wagon? Do you think we were on to something there?

In any case.

Quill, and Firestorm are prob town.

TMW and JJ, if scum, are at least half intelligent scum. I lean more townish on JJ of the pair. I strongly doubt they are scum together, I'd bet my beard on it.

Staeg looks really scummy.

What about Meransiel and Elsa?

I'm a genius and very handsome, probably lots of people should follow this vote.

Although it's incredibly difficult to resist your charismatic personality, and I think I may be in love, but I'm just ready to go that far just yet