Newbie Game 1106: Death with a 2x4 (limps to finish line)

[embit]

from your statement:

a vote on you is totally acceptable by Ant's standard

you seem to believe that Ant is a newbie, is that the case?

Yes. But how does that connect to the Part you quoted from me?

by saying, 'it is totally acceptable by Ant's standards', you seem to be excusing him for his behaviour. did i read that wrong? regardless, it's kinda irrelevant now.

ebwop

: and my question was whether DD believed that Ant was newb town as opposed to newb scum. i didn't make that clear in my previous post hooha (because for some reason in my mind, being new and being scum were mutually exclusive!!!)

Huh? I dont get that at all. Exüplain, please.

i made a mistake with my previous post. ebwop = edit by way of post (or something close).
my question should have been, do you believe that ant is a newbie town as opposed to a newbie scum? but since you're voting for him, i assume the answer is the latter.

however, one thing i'm

really

confused about is about how you're both defending and attacking Ant in the same breath.
personally, the most incriminating action that -- i agree with ank -- is that he has been frequently swapping votes. this is wishy-washy behaviour and it is considered a scumtell. i am personally of the camp that it's more of a newbie-tell than anything else at this point in time (unless shown to be otherwise), but you seem to disregard this in post #147.

are you telling me that you're voting on him on the sole account of him being:

At first reading, this seemed totally scummy, but on second reading it was not. Then, it came back to me. This defense seems way too cautious, nearly intimidated.

?

[embit]

ebwop again

: i really need to proof-read. :I
it kinda seems like i'm saying that dd disregards ant as being a newbie, but what i meant is that dd disregards the argument that ant has frequently been switching votes.
my personal belief that ant leans more towards newbie should really be in a separate sentence.

[Poiven]

Individual player analysis:

In order listed in the first post:

embit

: Not a lot of posts, and it would be good to hear a bit more from him. However, I am getting a pretty solid town vibe from him so far.

mrguy888

: Haven't seen enough from him to really know. Neutral. Though I am curious, how did Dr Doom's vote for Ant seem like a lynch vote?

Dr Doom

: His attacks on me seemed a bit strange. The first, for being wishy-washy, may have held a little water, but what other defense do you want other than "it's really not that important to me?" Would a better defense have been "Good God, you're right, I have been weak! I vote for Korlash and demand everyone follow my lead!"? I also sometimes don't get your "Good post" posts; sometimes they seem sarcastic and sometimes they don't. I feel like you take really small things that people say and somewhat warp the meaning to make it seem scummy, and I don't really like that. I'm getting scummy vibes. (Also, I'm curious, as you're in Germany as well; is English your first language, or is your first language German? Or something else entirely?)

Poiven

: Town vibes

Ant

: I still find Ant relatively suspicious. Reading back, however, and seeing his overall newness, it is clear that he either 1) Truly is a newb or 2) is pretending to be to get a slight newb-card advantage. However, even with a newb card, there are still some things I find slightly scummy, and can't just write them all off on newness.

Ankamius

: Definitely getting a town read. While I think the grill on Ant's votes may have been a bit of a stretch (as I believe Dr Doom pointed out; namely that mrguy888 was a random vote, then he voted for embit as pressure to get him talking, and then for Korlash because he found him suspicious [although he didn't really give good reasons for this; one of the reasons I find him suspicious, myself]), I don't think it was completely unfounded. I have very little suspicion of Ankamius. I would like to hear a bit more opinion from him, though.

Quinnster

: Haven't seen a lot of his posts, and he hasn't really said much other than finding Dr Doom scummy, then finding Dr Doom not scummy. That was pretty much it. He even posted that he was waiting on zMuffinMan without posting anything else, although there was a lot that could have used comment. It's hard to judge at this point, but slightly scummy vibe.

zMuffinMan

: Your vote on Ant got us really interested in what you had to say, and I personally was expecting you to have something pretty good on it to much such a bold move. But then you come back later and jump off the wagon; which in itself I didn't see as much of a problem, seeing as some of his actions could be explained by newness; and then your explanation for your out-of-the-blue vote was "As for why I originally voted Ant, gut + his early posts were bad (I'm having a hard time reading his attack on Korlash as genuine and his vote hopping wasn't helping my read)." That was the entire explanation you gave us. Besides that, you haven't contributed much. Very slight scum vibes.

Korlash

: You're the IC, so obviously you're helping us out a lot in your role as IC. However, we shouldn't necessarily take that as a town read; the IC role and the mafia/town role are two completely separate things. As it is, I am having a very, very hard time reading you. I would say neutral.

Least scummy to most scummy:

embit
Ankamius

Korlash
mrguy888

ZMuffinMan
Quinnster

Ant
Dr Doom

This post took forever. Wow. Anyway, that's my view on things.

[Poiven]

EBWoP: "to make such a bold move" as opposed to "to much such a bold move."

[Mr. Flay]

Third Vote Count of Day One:

Ant - 2 (Ankamius, Dr Doom)
mrguy888 - 1 (Ant)
Dr Doom - 1 (mrguy888)
Ankamius - 1 (Korlash)

Not Voting - 4 (embit, Quinnster, Poiven, zMuffinMan)

With nine alive, it will take five votes to lynch.

[Dr Doom]

@Poiven:
The whole exchange between Poiven and Korlash send off Town vibes from both. It launched us from Random voting to serious discussion, so I guess the self vote worked. Poiven answered other peoples questions very well. Korlash was not attacked as much as you would expect, but I think that's due to the point that noone tried to make a case out of a random-voting-"special snowflake"-schtick.

Spoiler: Poiven interrogates Ant on Ants vote on korlash

Sorry I haven't posted much, I'm not really sure what to say.

What do you think when you read the posts? Do you think anyone sticks out as probably scum, possibly scum, or probably town?

I guess that ankamius and poiven seem like town. I didn't find anything really suspicious yet. Other than korlash's vote for himself. I can't think of a reason to do that unless he's scum. If he were town, what would be the point of voting for himself, to show that he's innocent enough to be able to do so? I don't know, just seems odd.

What do you think of Korlash's claim that he random votes himself every game?

I'll be honest, I had to look the word up; I didn't know it and found it confusing.

As to the second half of your post, I'm not going to say I completely understand your reasoning, but I suppose I will learn in time.

I was going to vote for korlash but as a placeholder vote until now I was voting for you. Now that you've come out I'll switch my vote. Once I et a little bit more info I can always switch back. I dint think I was quick to point fingers, I was just pointing out your inactivity. I totally get it though, I was overwhelmed at first as well.

Unvote embit

Vote Korlash

Curious, why the vote on Korlash? Is this a random vote? A pressure vote? A lynch vote?

If you just want info, I would sooner call it a pressure vote than a lynch vote/pressure vote combo.

Have you mentioned his scumminess before? What are you basing this off of? It just seems very out of the blue to me.

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. But every game seems like a stretch. If he does then he must be used to having a lot of suspicion surrounding him.

It was proven that he does this very often; why are you still so suspicious of him?

Sorry, I posted that before reading korlash's new post, I thought it went through but it didn't. I realize the faults in my logic, though. I'm just confusing myself though.

I'll just keep my vote and see what happens.

Here's a question korlash: do you think I'm lying about my claim? Do you believe I am scum?

Sorry, missed this post before posting my last.

This seems a little off to me.

Ant, you seem very suspicious to me.

However, I'd very much like to see what zMuffinMan has to say about you before I put you at L-1.

In the meantime, UNVOTE: Quinnster

All good posting, but like Ank, I know nothing about Poiven, except that he suspects Ant. What do you think about other players, for example me?

Spoiler: Korlash's comment on Poi

Poi

- I have to take back what I said earlier. I don't actually think he was discussing something he felt was unimportant, at least not at the time. Forgetting where his vote is is never a town thing, but I don't put a lot of scope in things like that involving random votes. He seems to simply be following along with the game from there, seemingly picking and choosing what to comment on. I have to admit it certainly looks like a more user friendly playstyle then my own, but at the same time it seems like he is missing out on a lot of the going-ons. It wouldn't be as big a deal for me if it wasn't for the fact he too has a "what do you think of the others" post along with a "twiddles thumbs" post. It just begs the question, why waste time literally holding off posting when you could be taking that time to look into others. The comment about putting him at L-1... eh, really don't want to try and read into that one. I'm slightly leaning town on him, probably just because that's how I came into this read, but I'm getting some weird vibes from him so I have to at least put him in the neutral block.

As you've probably guessed, this is my first game on MafiaScum. In other games that I have played, self-voting is really looked down upon, which is why I brought it up. I also read a couple threads here and it was brought up as an issue in another game (however, the person was under pressure, so I see how that was a different situation). So it was kind of important at first, yes; but seeing as apparently it's not seen as quite such a bad thing here in a random vote situation (random voting is also something the other forum didn't have, so I'm not very familiar with it; luckily reading through other threads I saw the concept, but I've never done it before) I was okay with calling it off as playing style. No big deal.

As to forgetting the vote; the only reason I had forgotten about it was because I had mentioned Korlash's self vote in the same post as I random voted Quinnster, and I do tend to have a bad memory; it stuck out in my mind as me using Korlash's self vote as a reason for a random vote, which I said a couple times. I corrected myself because I noticed it after seeing the vote count, instead of letting my error just sit there to possibly be found by someone else. Saying you forgot after the fact can make for a really sticky situation, even if you're telling the truth.

Picking and choosing what to comment on, well, of course. It's not like I can comment on every single thing that happens in this game. It doesn't mean I'm not picking up on everything that's going on, or that I'm not reading everything. I comment on what I feel should be commented on. Isn't that normal?

Well, maybe you do not have to comment on everything, but you only commented on korlashs selfvote and on Ant, but nothing else. Quinns attack and vote on me, the people voting for Ant beside you, etc... - no comment on any of that from you so far.

The "what do you think of the others" post was to someone who said they didn't know what to post. I don't know what's suspicious about that. The *Twiddles thumbs* post was because I (as well as a few others) was waiting on zMuffinMan's explanation, and didn't really have anything to say at that point except that I was waiting; a point that Quinnster had also made, albeit with words, in the post before mine. Everything that I felt should have been said had been said, at least from me, so it was just a waiting game for zMuffinMan. To be honest I feel like even though you're not calling me very scummy, putting a scum spin on these posts is slightly suspicious to me.

As to the comment about L-1, which someone else also mentioned. Here is the post in question:

Ant, you seem very suspicious to me.

However, I'd very much like to see what zMuffinMan has to say about you before I put you at L-1.

In the meantime, UNVOTE: Quinnster

Now, there are two different possible interpretations of that middle line, and it depends on the intonation of the spoken sentence. There is the interpretation of "after zMuffinMan posts, I will put you at L-1," which is how it seems to be being interpreted, and there is "I don't want to put you at L-1 right now, but I might after I see what zMuffinMan has to say." With zMuffinMan's post, I had expected some type of very strong evidence against Ant, and, in light of said evidence, would have most likely put Ant at L-1. I wasn't saying that I was planning to do it as soon as zMuffinMan spoke.

I'll post my own breakdown soon.

Hm. I do not think that Korlash is reading you very unfavoritable. In fact, he says "eh, really don't want to try and read into that one." and "I'm slightly leaning town on him" - how can you interpret that in the way you said?

The "what do you think of the others" post was to someone who said they didn't know what to post.

Exactly! If you twiddle thumbs, why not post meaningful content instead? [<- this what I think Korlash was trying to say - while I agree with him in principle on that point, I would never have called out anyone on a *twiddles thumb* post]
We crossposted! Yay! Before I saw your Analysis, I wanted to say: Post more! But now you have done! Yay! More to read!
Whoa, this is taking FOREVER!

[Dr Doom]

A random vote to start us off. MF Doom is cooler than Dr. Doom.

Who is MF Doom? And to say it with the immortal words of Zaphod Beeblebrox:"If there's anything cooler than me around, I want it caught and shot now."
First of all, you have 3 Posts with content to your Name. Not enough at all.

Spoiler:

Mostly it was just a reason for a random vote. But even without pressure, I still don't really like self-voting; especially in the random voting stage. It doesn't help us at all, whereas random votes for other people get more discussion going and make things more interesting.

You don't find this discussion interesting?... Peculiar.

How exactly does a random vote for another person spawn any more discussion then a random vote for yourself? One could argue random is random yes? Plus, my self vote has spawned this discussion, so it has already given us a positive step forward.

Because a random vote for somebody else creates Antagonism, Strife, Discussion! If you vote for yourself, who is your antagonist to argue with? Yourself?
Unless someone else picks up on it, like Poiven here, it is mnot going to generate discussion.
Plus, if you vote for another Person, you have two persons involved. The possibility that one of the two is scum is higher than if you have a selfvote. If you get two players in an argument, the probability of a slip up is higher.
So I agree with Poiven here - vote for other People are better then votes for oneself.

It is... very important.

I agree! The Cake is

a lie!

delicous and important!

I said it rubs me the wrong way, not that I find it completely scummy; basically what I'm trying to say. I didn't say it wasn't important, just that it's not that important. Also, it was a reason for a random vote; I'm sure you also don't find "cake stealing" to be that important in a game of mafia.

You're a bit wishy washy here. Scum?

a) I was looking for something to grasp onto to start my game. The conversation between Poiven and Korlash seemed to be about game mechanics, and neither was looking scummy to me. So, I grabbed the first contradiction I found and questioned it. Much in the same way you questioned Poiven for being scummy. It was a start-off point, an opinion to begin with, and I have since moved past it.

Okay. Hm. Something about "and I have since moved past it." is wierd, but I can't pinpoint it. However, he did unvote me before posting that, so yeah.
[quote="Quinnster cont]
b) There is the post I meant, the one I based my first post against you off of. I find it hyperbolic that you'd throw the "s" word out this early over such a small issue, but I'm willing to believe that you didn't mean it as strongly as my "1am-really-looking-for-something-to-post" self thought you did.

c) By "having their turn in the spotlight", I mean that I like to see how people handle pressure. Yours may have been for the most part unfounded, but I always like to see how people react to accusations. It's the people who never get questioned that run away with games, because they never have anything to back up. So yes, I appreciate being in this position right now and being able to explain myself to you.

d) I believe Korlash to be town, but I also know that he's in a guidance position, so all the helpfulness is something that's actually required of him. I'm not ready to make judgments on anyone else, including you. I was hasty in making m first post, and it has bit me in the ass. At that point, I believed you were acting scummiest, and I still think my points had a shred of validity, but I'm willing to admit that I blew them out of proportion.[/quote]
Okay... Hm. Post more, there is like nothing to go on.

[Dr Doom]

Unvote

VOTE: Ant

Remind me to explain this when I'm awake.

Well?

Apart from that, zMuffinMan participated in the discussion, but said not a lot tangible.

Okay, that is it for now. I will react to the two lists who have me as a rather scummy player (how in the nine Hells did I manage that?) later - I have an Assignment to do right now ><

[Dr Doom]

from your statement:

a vote on you is totally acceptable by Ant's standard

you seem to believe that Ant is a newbie, is that the case?

Yes. But how does that connect to the Part you quoted from me?

by saying, 'it is totally acceptable by Ant's standards', you seem to be excusing him for his behaviour. did i read that wrong? regardless, it's kinda irrelevant now.

Not excusing. I wanted to point out that from what you said what Ant said, it would make sense for Ant to vote you. But you were attacking Ant's vote, and I was pointing out that contradiction.
BUT: apparently, you a) did not say what I thought you did about Ant, and b) it was a rethorical question anyhow, so yeah.

ebwop

: and my question was whether DD believed that Ant was newb town as opposed to newb scum. i didn't make that clear in my previous post hooha (because for some reason in my mind, being new and being scum were mutually exclusive!!!)

Huh? I dont get that at all. Exüplain, please.

i made a mistake with my previous post. ebwop = edit by way of post (or something close).
my question should have been, do you believe that ant is a newbie town as opposed to a newbie scum? but since you're voting for him, i assume the answer is the latter.

Not quite. I believe that he is a) new, and b) slightly scummy. Scummy enough that I wanted to put pressure on him to get him to answer to teh questions, make him squirm and see if he breaks. If he breaks - presto, Scum! If he behaves well - good, a player that I believe to be strongly protown.
I do NOT believe that Ant is scum enough to lynch him - we are nowhere near that.

however, one thing i'm

really

confused about is about how you're both defending and attacking Ant in the same breath.

Heh. I am calling out the actions that I think could be scummy, while at the same time doing it to everyone else. If I attack Player A, and Player B attacks the same Player, I am not convinced of B's innocence. And if I think that Player B attacks A for bullshit reasons, I will attack B. I will do that all the time. It is easy for scum to get on bandwagons if noone examines the other players attacks. Maybe it should be withheld until after the peak of pressure for Player A, but if you do it right then, the memory is still fresh.

personally, the most incriminating action that -- i agree with ank -- is that he has been frequently swapping votes. this is wishy-washy behaviour and it is considered a scumtell. i am personally of the camp that it's more of a newbie-tell than anything else at this point in time (unless shown to be otherwise), but you seem to disregard this in post #147.

Well, I had different tells. For me, his change of votes was not too bad, but how he reacted to the other players (embits attack, for example) and how he said his korlash vote was a "pressure/lynch vote combo".

How is Ant changing positions here, exactly?

Do you mean this part of Post 147? I am aware how Ant is changing position sthere, but I wanted to hear something from Ank about it. Maybe he would screw up somehow.

are you telling me that you're voting on him on the sole account of him being:

At first reading, this seemed totally scummy, but on second reading it was not. Then, it came back to me. This defense seems way too cautious, nearly intimidated.

?

No, see my Post 135. When I originally voted for Ant, I had all that in mind, but not in words on paper.

In order of appearance

:

Gir(doom)

- His post 49 certainly does stand out. His follow up to it in 55 does make sense, I certainly see the logic. First player to FoS, I always give scum cred for that one. I want to call him out for his interactions with Poi, but seeing as how I'm getting weird vibes from the dude as well I have to admit I can understand it. He certainly need some backing to his ant vote, specifically by what he meant about "the defense". i'm leaning slightly scum on him for now but I reserve the right to change that based on his explanation for his ant vote.

Okay, I'm "slightly scum", but am the second most scummy player in your List. Only Anka gets a "Small scum vibes.", everybody is neutral or town. Wow, when I saw your list, I thought "What?!", but now its "okay, this does not mean much apparently: Nearly everyone is town/neutral".
@Post 49/55: Well, yeah, I explained that already. Does anyone find something about the posts suspicious?
@First to FoS: Okay, that is a really weak reason, is it? I'm too lazy to use the Searchfunction now (and because I really should do my assignement instead of posting here ), but I bet I can point to a ton of Games were the first FoS comes from town. This is a baseless attack, imho.
@Interaction with Poi: What about it? What parts of it want you to call me out for, and why?
@Defense: Mhm. I wanted to say that Ant was shrinking back from his vote on korlash so quick and hefty, that the vote seemed to lack conviction in the first place. Thats what I wanted to say.
@Backing my Vote for Ant: I did in the meantime.

Individual player analysis:

Dr Doom

: His attacks on me seemed a bit strange. The first, for being wishy-washy, may have held a little water, but what other defense do you want other than "it's really not that important to me?" Would a better defense have been "Good God, you're right, I have been weak! I vote for Korlash and demand everyone follow my lead!"? I also sometimes don't get your "Good post" posts; sometimes they seem sarcastic and sometimes they don't. I feel like you take really small things that people say and somewhat warp the meaning to make it seem scummy, and I don't really like that. I'm getting scummy vibes. (Also, I'm curious, as you're in Germany as well; is English your first language, or is your first language German? Or something else entirely?)

@wishywashy-defense: Errm, I said you are wishy washy, and you said "blah, it was not a huge deal". Err, that is not a proper defense. BUT, since it is truly not a huge deal, I did not expect a huge defense, either. In other words, this a null thingie for me right now.
@What I expected: Nothing and anything. I ask questions, and see how people react. If they blow small things out of proportions, if people contradict each other, if they can be proven to lie, etc... I'm waiting for any of these things. I do not understand your "Good God, ... my lead!" sentence at all.
@Good Post: This is never sarcastic, and always means: "I agree", or "This post is protown, and this post makes the Player look more town in my eyes".
@warping the meaning: Hm. I ask questions. I analyze. A lot, because I'm trying to get a hold on people. And I always try out different readings, to see how people react.
(@First Language: German, but my English is really good from reading English Roleplaying books, being on the internet a lot and having spend a year in Australia).
Schönen Nachmittag noch!

[zMuffinMan]

I don't like however the fact that his reasons given for his vote seem to match the reasons for the rest of the votes on Ant

Actually, the reason for my vote wasn't really the same.

For example, Ankamius's vote on Ant was due to Ant's vote-hopping (which he said is pointing fingers everywhere for any reason at all). I don't quite agree with this, and although I don't like Ant's vote-hopping, I don't think his vote-hopping in itself is scummy in any way.

And as far as I can tell, Gir's vote on Ant was due to cautious defense when he unvoted Embit and voted you.

I was really just looking at the reasons he's voting people or calling people town. In particular, his suspicion of you since the beginning of the game came off as disingenuous.

Err, if we hold a poll "Are you town?" we would probably find that we are 100% town in this game

Actually, I'd vote no just to be different.

muffins attack consisted of "I'm asleep and you are scum"

To be fair, this is a better reason than I usually give for putting my vote on someone.

Your vote on Ant got us really interested in what you had to say, and I personally was expecting you to have something pretty good on it to much such a bold move.

How was it a bold move and what were you expecting?

I'm not entirely sure where I hinted that I have damning evidence of any sort, or even a good reason for voting him, so I don't know why anyone was expecting anything from me in that respect.

--

VOTE: Ankamius

Korlash is my shepherd. baaa!

[Poiven]

@wishywashy-defense: Errm, I said you are wishy washy, and you said "blah, it was not a huge deal". Err, that is not a proper defense. BUT, since it is truly not a huge deal, I did not expect a huge defense, either. In other words, this a null thingie for me right now.
@What I expected: Nothing and anything. I ask questions, and see how people react. If they blow small things out of proportions, if people contradict each other, if they can be proven to lie, etc... I'm waiting for any of these things. I do not understand your "Good God, ... my lead!" sentence at all.
@Good Post: This is never sarcastic, and always means: "I agree", or "This post is protown, and this post makes the Player look more town in my eyes".
@warping the meaning: Hm. I ask questions. I analyze. A lot, because I'm trying to get a hold on people. And I always try out different readings, to see how people react.
(@First Language: German, but my English is really good from reading English Roleplaying books, being on the internet a lot and having spend a year in Australia).
Schönen Nachmittag noch!

@Defense: How is that not a valid defense? That was how I felt about the issue and I was explaining the reason that I reacted the way I did. This didn't seem that null to you before, why is it all of a sudden now?
@What you expectedThe "Good God" sentence was a rhetorical question; as in, is that what would have been a "legitimate defense?"
@Good Post: Okay, I'll watch out for those.
@Warping the meaning: Well, yes, we do all try to analyze what everyone is saying, but I get the feeling you sometimes put words in people's mouths, or certain spins on things that weren't really there; basically like a tabloid journalist taking things out of context.
@First language: I ask because there are certain slip-ups that people make that, if they aren't native English speakers, could be attributed to that. I haven't seen any that would fit into that category yet, but I'll keep it in mind. Also, I didn't notice at all that English wasn't your native language; und normalerweise fallen mir grammatische Fehler auf, die aus dem Deutschen kommen English is my first language, but I'm also fluent in German, so I normally notice if someone's first language is German, because I'm used to the kind of mistakes they tend to make.

Your posts have made you seem a little bit less scummy, but you're still relatively high on my list. I'm not sure if you're still at the top though.

[Poiven]

Your vote on Ant got us really interested in what you had to say, and I personally was expecting you to have something pretty good on it to much such a bold move.

How was it a bold move and what were you expecting?

I'm not entirely sure where I hinted that I have damning evidence of any sort, or even a good reason for voting him, so I don't know why anyone was expecting anything from me in that respect.

Spoiler: zMuffinMan's vote on Ant

Unvote

VOTE: Ant

Remind me to explain this when I'm awake.

It seemed to me (and many others, as far as I could tell) like you had an actual explanation. Not actually having one seemed off.

[zMuffinMan]

I gave an explanation.

Why were you expecting a good explanation with damning evidence of some sort?

And why was it a bold move?

[Poiven]

You gave a bit of an explanation. I suppose I had just expecting more because of the way you said it. "Remind me to explain this when I'm awake" sounds like it has an actual good explanation behind it.

It was a bold move because it was a very conspicuous vote for someone mixed with the drama of waiting for an explanation. And in the end it was a little anti-climactic.

[zMuffinMan]

"Remind me to explain this when I'm awake" is what I say when I post at 5am and I can barely see or think straight.

[Poiven]

Then why didn't you just wait on the vote itself? Was it so time-pressing that you had to vote then and explain later?

[zMuffinMan]

And let someone steal my limelight by voting him before me? Not likely.

I'll give you a few reasons, you can pick and choose which one or ones you want to go with:

- I wanted to see what people had to say about it
- I didn't see a point in waiting to put my vote on him
- It was 5am and I was half-asleep
- I felt like it

I'm not sure where you get the impression that I felt I had to vote then. Also not sure why you're pursuing this line of questioning.

[Poiven]

I got the impression you felt you had to vote then because you voted then when you could have waited. I guess I say slight validity in your first and third pick and choose reasons.

I'm pursuing this line of questioning because it was something I found noteworthy and wanted to hear what you had to say about it, and wanted to see how you would react to being put under a little bit of pressure.

[Poiven]

See, not say.

I should really proofread my posts.

[Quinnster]

Just re-read the thread, now I'm going to read everyone in ISO. Hopefully I can get my post done before rehearsal, if not it may be later tonight, and I apologize for that in advance.

[mrguy888]

I said it rubs me the wrong way, not that I find it completely scummy; basically what I'm trying to say. I didn't say it wasn't important, just that it's not that important. Also, it was a reason for a random vote; I'm sure you also don't find "cake stealing" to be that important in a game of mafia.

You're a bit wishy washy here. Scum?

This isn't wishy washy at all yet you start with soft scum accusations.

I'm also unclear about your stance on Poiven. In post 47, you seem to stand beside him and call him out in the same post. Are you actually torn on the issue, or are you trying to gain favor in both sides of the argument?

Me thinking that his point is true has nothing to do if I think that he might be scum. If anyone, even the most scummy player says anything that I think is true, I will say so, scummy or not. Your question excludes the middle - the way you phrased it, it (tried to) paints me into a corner of either being with Poiven or not, thus trying to get me caught in a non-existant Contradiction. At least that is what you might have been trying to do. Finger of Suspicion for that.

You avoid a question that if you have nothing to hide should be an easy question to answer. You get a bit defensive and redirect the suspicion. This is a bit suspicious to me.
I may have been jumping at shadows with the vibe that you were hoping for a lynch but I still feel it is something worth noting for the future. I got this vibe because you were casting suspicion on to everyone and then as soon as others starting making a bandwagon you jumped on with the reason that he said something that you think may or may not have been scummy or overly cautious. It struck me as a bit opportunistic so I made that known.

I was going to vote for korlash but as a placeholder vote until now I was voting for you. Now that you've come out I'll switch my vote. Once I et a little bit more info I can always switch back. I dint think I was quick to point fingers, I was just pointing out your inactivity. I totally get it though, I was overwhelmed at first as well.
Unvote embit
Vote Korlash

This comes off as a indecisive, like "I don't care who dies, as long as it is not scum", but this depends on how favourable the reading is.

This bothers me. To me it seem that you are taking null tells and trying to make them seems scummy. This is not even close to what is said. It is not that I think Ant is town or scum, I just think you are pushing really hard without reason.

I will read through everything for a fourth time and post more thoughts in a couple hours when I have more time.

[Quinnster]

Ankamius – I really must commend your case against Ant, which was built with solid evidence and reasoning. Besides that, you ask a lot of questions, which really helps us move forward. Occasionally, when reading you in ISO, I was inclined to want you to answer instead of asking at times, but the thorough case against Ant excuses that. I find you quite fairly pro-town.

Ant – I do find the flip-flopping disturbing, and I'm not completely willing to believe that it's all newness that's making you do it. Also, the strange vote on Korlash still puts me on edge, as you never explained whether or not you believe him. Was it a gut read? I can accept that, but don't pretend that it was anything more. You're playing the newbie card constantly, and that bothers me too. Be confident in your actions, being wishy-washy and helpless helps none of us. It makes you impossible to dissect, because it always leads to “well, he didn't know.” Definitely a scummy player.

Dr. Doom – Seems to start with gut reads sometimes, but then proceeds to back them all up with evidence, which I really appreciate. My one bone of contention is that Poiven really had to need to defend himself against you as for being “wishy-washy”, he explained in almost EVERY post that he didn't find Korlash's self-vote scummy, but was more interested in how it can be useful. I'm also pretty impressed with how you put yourself out there as a target by providing evidence and being very clear in your opinions. You're ballsy, good sir, and you refuse to blend into the background. I do think you could afford to be more concise at times, but that's your playing style, not your play. Null for now because of the treatment of Poiven near the beginning of the game.

Embit – Not much to go on. I do agree with his opinions on Ant, but those were fairly obvious at the time. Hard to tell anything about him at this point, but I do hope he gets more involved. I'm not going to let you slip under the radar at any point, so be prepared to answer questions from me.

Korlash – Also willing to put himself out there for discussion's sake. I find nothing scummy about the self-vote at the top of the game, and since then he hasn't been under much scrutiny. Sometimes, I think you hide behind the sarcastic humor, and could get to the point a bit more quickly than you do. Since I find gut reads to be a little useless, I'd like to see him build his case against Doom if he has one, but that may be a pipe dream at this point in the game. Null leaning town.

Mrguy888 – So you suspect Dr. Doom, huh? Why? Do you have any reasoning beyond basic “he's accusing a lot of people!” vibes? Please post more, though I can see you're trying to get involved. This last post puts you more on the right track, and I can't wait to see more discussion like this from you. At this point, though, leaning on the null side.

Poiven – I did notice that at the beginning of the game, you did let Korlash know that you didn't find him scummy, and some other people (Dr. Doom) blew that a little out of proportion. As far as commenting on anything you deem worthy of comment, did you find nothing of my argument with Dr. Doom? Was there nothing in that? I know I'm guilty of the same thing, but I'd like to know your views on that. Null/town for me right now.

ZmuffinMan – You remind me of Season 6 of lost. You had me on the edge of my seat waiting for the argument that was going to bring me to your side. And what was it? Pretty much “ditto what everyone else said”. Great, but that doesn't get us anywhere. However, your posts after that do point me more in the direction that you're actually analyzing, not skimming. So, why the vote on Ank? That sort of came out of nowhere. Leaning scummy for me just because of that last Ank vote.

So, list so far, towniest to scummiest:
Ankamius
Korlash
Poiven
Mrguy888
Dr. Doom
Embit
zMuffinMan
Ant

And with that:

Vote: Ant

[Dr Doom]

VOTE: Ankamius

Korlash is my shepherd. baaa!

Man, what?

Your vote on Ant got us really interested in what you had to say, and I personally was expecting you to have something pretty good on it to much such a bold move.

How was it a bold move and what were you expecting?

I'm not entirely sure where I hinted that I have damning evidence of any sort, or even a good reason for voting him, so I don't know why anyone was expecting anything from me in that respect.

Spoiler: zMuffinMan's vote on Ant

Unvote

VOTE: Ant

Remind me to explain this when I'm awake.

It seemed to me (and many others, as far as I could tell) like you had an actual explanation. Not actually having one seemed off.

This. Plus, if you have no reasons for votes, why dont we replace you with a random number generator?

You gave a bit of an explanation. I suppose I had just expecting more because of the way you said it. "Remind me to explain this when I'm awake" sounds like it has an actual good explanation behind it.

It was a bold move because it was a very conspicuous vote for someone mixed with the drama of waiting for an explanation. And in the end it was a little anti-climactic.

Actually, he gave us little to no explanation. I'm behind Poiven on this one.

Remind me to explain this when I'm awake

I'm reminding you now, zMuffster!

Spoiler: Dooms Post

@wishywashy-defense: Errm, I said you are wishy washy, and you said "blah, it was not a huge deal". Err, that is not a proper defense. BUT, since it is truly not a huge deal, I did not expect a huge defense, either. In other words, this a null thingie for me right now.
@What I expected: Nothing and anything. I ask questions, and see how people react. If they blow small things out of proportions, if people contradict each other, if they can be proven to lie, etc... I'm waiting for any of these things. I do not understand your "Good God, ... my lead!" sentence at all.
@Good Post: This is never sarcastic, and always means: "I agree", or "This post is protown, and this post makes the Player look more town in my eyes".
@warping the meaning: Hm. I ask questions. I analyze. A lot, because I'm trying to get a hold on people. And I always try out different readings, to see how people react.
(@First Language: German, but my English is really good from reading English Roleplaying books, being on the internet a lot and having spend a year in Australia).
Schönen Nachmittag noch!

@Defense: How is that not a valid defense? That was how I felt about the issue and I was explaining the reason that I reacted the way I did. This didn't seem that null to you before, why is it all of a sudden now?
@What you expectedThe "Good God" sentence was a rhetorical question; as in, is that what would have been a "legitimate defense?"
@Good Post: Okay, I'll watch out for those.
@Warping the meaning: Well, yes, we do all try to analyze what everyone is saying, but I get the feeling you sometimes put words in people's mouths, or certain spins on things that weren't really there; basically like a tabloid journalist taking things out of context.
@First language: I ask because there are certain slip-ups that people make that, if they aren't native English speakers, could be attributed to that. I haven't seen any that would fit into that category yet, but I'll keep it in mind. Also, I didn't notice at all that English wasn't your native language; und normalerweise fallen mir grammatische Fehler auf, die aus dem Deutschen kommen English is my first language, but I'm also fluent in German, so I normally notice if someone's first language is German, because I'm used to the kind of mistakes they tend to make.

Your posts have made you seem a little bit less scummy, but you're still relatively high on my list. I'm not sure if you're still at the top though.

@Defense: Ah. I see it now. When I first read your post, I did not check if you voted for korlash or not. the post that I was referring to as wishy-washy sounds like someone downplaying a vote, basically saying "I voted, but it is not a big deal, I swear". Thus I was expecting you to justify your vote, but there was not vote to justify at all. I know that you said something like that later in the thread, but I did not make the connection until now.
@Hm. I'm not sure were I have done that. I have not done it intentionally. What I have done is to repeat what was said in form of a question, or that I repeat two different possible readings/meanings of what was said, but (at least in my eyes) I do not just go SUN/BILD style on what was said.
(@Language While I was in Australia, I was hanging out with three guys from Liverpool. After a week or so, I had aquired their accent so much that an english girl with freckles and front teeth and everything would only believe that I was from Germany after I showed her my ID. Plus, I think conversing in German is borderline on the "No Cryptography/Stenography rule", aber, ach was solls )
PS: I'm the highest ranking guy on your scumlist from a few posts back. Why no vote for me?

[Dr Doom]

I said it rubs me the wrong way, not that I find it completely scummy; basically what I'm trying to say. I didn't say it wasn't important, just that it's not that important. Also, it was a reason for a random vote; I'm sure you also don't find "cake stealing" to be that important in a game of mafia.

You're a bit wishy washy here. Scum?

This isn't wishy washy at all yet you start with soft scum accusations.

With what else should I start? Hard accusations? Like I said in the post above this one, I thought this sentence by Poiven was in defence of a vote, when it really wasn't. And if it were to defend a vote, it would be a bit "this is a vote, but it it is not important, just ignore it" while still being a vote. However, it got cleared up (I hope. If not, I will explain again).

I'm also unclear about your stance on Poiven. In post 47, you seem to stand beside him and call him out in the same post. Are you actually torn on the issue, or are you trying to gain favor in both sides of the argument?

Me thinking that his point is true has nothing to do if I think that he might be scum. If anyone, even the most scummy player says anything that I think is true, I will say so, scummy or not. Your question excludes the middle - the way you phrased it, it (tried to) paints me into a corner of either being with Poiven or not, thus trying to get me caught in a non-existant Contradiction. At least that is what you might have been trying to do. Finger of Suspicion for that.

You avoid a question that if you have nothing to hide should be an easy question to answer. You get a bit defensive and redirect the suspicion. This is a bit suspicious to me.

Im sorry that I seemed to avoid the question. At that time, I was getting mild scum vibes from Poiven due to the wishy washy thing (which was really a non-issue, but I was not aware of it), and at the same time I agreed with him that a self vote is worse than an other vote, although by now I see the advantages of the selfvote in the early stages.
@Misdirection I honestly felt that the way the question was worded was misleading - like "either you are against Poiven or with him", when it was a bit more complex in reality.

I may have been jumping at shadows with the vibe that you were hoping for a lynch but I still feel it is something worth noting for the future. I got this vibe because you were casting suspicion on to everyone and then as soon as others starting making a bandwagon you jumped on with the reason that he said something that you think may or may not have been scummy or overly cautious.

@Suspicion at everyone Why should anyone be spared? Everyone could be scum, so I try to highlight everything I see. The more Information, the better.
@Bandwagoning casting the second vote on someone (as I was not aware of ankamius vote due to doubleposting).
[I just noticed: Ankamius voted randomly for Ant, then voted embit, the zmuffin voted and then ank and I crossposted]
The whole purpose of a bandwagon is to get someone under pressure, to see how they hold up. You are not building pressure with two votes.
Plus, and this is really odd, you just jumped on board of the wagon in Post # 127, poutting on the 3rd vote, after zmuffin unvoted.
All in all, I am still standing by my Ant vote - although he seems to be more new/nervous than scummy, he could be a new scum and thus needs to come under pressure as well. Plus, it's very nice to see who gets on a wagon, hops off, when and how (and why!). So for me, there is nothing scummy there at all.

It struck me as a bit opportunistic so I made that known.

I was going to vote for korlash but as a placeholder vote until now I was voting for you. Now that you've come out I'll switch my vote. Once I et a little bit more info I can always switch back. I dint think I was quick to point fingers, I was just pointing out your inactivity. I totally get it though, I was overwhelmed at first as well.
Unvote embit
Vote Korlash

This comes off as a indecisive, like "I don't care who dies, as long as it is not scum", but this depends on how favourable the reading is.

This bothers me. To me it seem that you are taking null tells and trying to make them seems scummy. This is not even close to what is said. It is not that I think Ant is town or scum, I just think you are pushing really hard without reason.

"I can always switch back" sounds to me like: "I don't really think that my current vote-target is scum(my), so I might as well switch back to you", which is indecisive and could be motivated by "I dont care who I vote for".
Do you think that the mafia is going to come out and say:"Hey everybody, lets lynch someone who is not me or my partner, and call it a night, so we can kill someone"? Of course you have to read between the lines! Thats what I did.

[Dr Doom]

Ankamius – I really must commend your case against Ant, which was built with solid evidence and reasoning. Besides that, you ask a lot of questions, which really helps us move forward. Occasionally, when reading you in ISO, I was inclined to want you to answer instead of asking at times, but the thorough case against Ant excuses that. I find you quite fairly pro-town.

What do you think of my arguments in Post # 147?
I think ank could be scum by trying to appear protown with asking questions and stuff, but not putting out his own opinions.

Dr. Doom – Seems to start with gut reads sometimes, but then proceeds to back them all up with evidence, which I really appreciate. My one bone of contention is that Poiven really had to need to defend himself against you as for being “wishy-washy”, he explained in almost EVERY post that he didn't find Korlash's self-vote scummy, but was more interested in how it can be useful. I'm also pretty impressed with how you put yourself out there as a target by providing evidence and being very clear in your opinions. You're ballsy, good sir, and you refuse to blend into the background. I do think you could afford to be more concise at times, but that's your playing style, not your play. Null for now because of the treatment of Poiven near the beginning of the game.

I'm a firm believer in "Everybody, speak up all the time". If I get lynched/Nightkilled/Investigated by a Cop or whatever, there will be a Volume of Information left behind by a (then) confirmed Innocent, aka someone who has no reason to lie. Plus, it makes me accountable: I can back up everything I say (I hope), I can back up all my votes, and I can be compared against my past record for all town to see.
For example, at the moment I think of Ant less and less as scum, and more and more as new. Hopefully, when I will switch my vote, people will ask me about it and give me a hard time. While that hurts me a bit, it is actually a good thing, because I will answer good, and they willmove on, and we have ensured that noone can slip by.

There is more to say about your post, but I don't have time right now. Will post tomorrow or something.