Mini 1166: Town Hall Mafia (GAME OVER)

[iamausername]

Yeah, can we not do this? C-Worl is town, ThAd is town, let's all rewind a little and notice how Archaist's catch-up post was a whole lot of words that said absolutely nothing and lynch him instead.

[ThAdmiral]

C-Worl's reason for voting ThAd is pretty bad. However, it doesn't look particularly scummy to me - I can't see scum just admitting they don't really have a reason to hop on a bandwagon.

Actually you're right. It was bad play, but scum don't normally say stuff like that.

unvote

Yeah, can we not do this? C-Worl is town, ThAd is town, let's all rewind a little and notice how Archaist's catch-up post was a whole lot of words that said absolutely nothing and lynch him instead.

You're also right. I got sidetracked but kuz/archaist is the real scum here.

vote: archaist

[Archaist]

C-Worl is town, ThAd is town

If you're going to name people town or scum it would be helpful to give some reasons first. You sound really sure of yourself, too sure for it to be just a gut feeling.

let's all rewind a little and notice how Archaist's catch-up post was a whole lot of words that said absolutely nothing and lynch him instead.

Kuz dug a hole for himself with his over-defensive play, and most of the game has focused on him, so being his replacement there's not much for me to go on for my opening post. However, you should notice that pushing for a rush lynch on ThAdmiral is not the first time C-Worl used this tactic. See post #90.

Also, buddying much? Notice how as soon as iamausername calls ThAdmiral town he immediately switches his vote, again, with uncanny confidence that I am scum. iamausername & ThAdmiral both seem really sure of who's town and who's scum. My vote stays on C-Worl for now, but FOS iamausername & ThAdmiral.

[C-Worl]

Yeah, can we not do this? C-Worl is town, ThAd is town, let's all rewind a little and notice how Archaist's catch-up post was a whole lot of words that said absolutely nothing and lynch him instead.

Sorry.

Unvote; Vote: Archaist

BTW, Archaist didn't properly read the thread, scumtell.

[Archaist]

Yeah, can we not do this? C-Worl is town, ThAd is town, let's all rewind a little and notice how Archaist's catch-up post was a whole lot of words that said absolutely nothing and lynch him instead.

Sorry.

Unvote; Vote: Archaist

BTW, Archaist didn't properly read the thread, scumtell.

Kuz dug a hole for himself with his over-defensive play, and most of the game has focused on him, so being his replacement there's not much for me to go on for my opening post.

And apparently you didn't properly read it either, since I clearly said why my

one post

was lacking. Not attacking my predecessor is a scumtell? He was an over-defensive typical over-eager townie. There's not much else to say. Your push for rush lynches however does say something.

[Archaist]

I'm also concerned about the fact that quite a few players seem to be hanging back while we argue amongst ourselves. That's a pretty telling sign.

[C-Worl]

C-Worl is town, ThAd is town

If you're going to name people town or scum it would be helpful to give some reasons first. You sound really sure of yourself, too sure for it to be just a gut feeling.

Archaist isn't reading the thread. Don't assume to know what I'm talking about.

[Archaist]

Well then perhaps you might elaborate rather than making a blanket statement.

[Archaist]

Nowhere in that post does iamausername justify his statement. If you can find where he gives such solid reasoning I'm sure I'm not the only one who would appreciate it.

[C-Worl]

If you would read the thread like you claimed to have then you would have seen it.

[Archaist]

Just re-read his posts and I still don't see it. Maybe I'm missing something you've caught. Please, prove me wrong rather than just taking the easy way out and saying "you didn't read." I don't want to assume to know what you're talking about.

[C-Worl]

Oh I get it. I asked kuz who his mates are. As in plural. Therefore IAAUN sees that I already think their could be 3 or more on the scum team. He asks me how many players are in the game because he's certain that there are only 2 scum in a 9 person game. Therefore he characterizes my ignorance as a towntell.

Did I get it right IAAUN?

Maybe instead of ISOs you should read the whole damn game? Oh wait, you didn't because as scum you don't feel motivated to do a complete reread because you already know who is and is not scum. Where as a townie that replaced in would reread because they're in a position of less intelligence. If you're not even going to bother reading I won't bother replying to you. This is my last post in response to you. Now go find your rope so we can use it to hang you.

[Fishythefish]

@C-Worl: You seem to think it's a scumtell that Archaist forgot that iamau had explained (via you) his reason for thinking you were town, and that he then iso'd iamau to find it. That is totally absurd.

Archaist's catch up is very much centred on him (but then again, the game mostly also has been). He says he can't really see enough in this game to vote. That's not good - I think there's plenty in this game to get some sort of a read on someone - but neither is it particularly scummy. If scum purposefully do nothing, they tend not to want to admit it. This slot still seems to me only marginally scummy, and I'm still not very interested in lynching it.

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

Archaist, can you go through the game and give us your reads on people so far? While we've seen people's opinions on individual players so far, we've seen nothing of your opinions on who is scum. If you don't have reads on certain people, at least give us your scumtells.

[sAbLLimINal]

How is me voting c-word for an absolutely terribad wagon-jump indicitive of me "doing anything to not get lynched"?
C-word has one other vote on him, and I would have voted him even if he didn't. How does that suggest I will jump on another bandwagon with little explanation?

Well let's take a look at your voting history

This is the best point in the game so far.

vote: kuz

Yeah, wtf?

vote: c-world

You're also right. I got sidetracked but kuz/archaist is the real scum here.

vote: archaist

You never gave a single reason to any of the votes you casted. You have only been agreeing with other people's thoughts. In fact, two out of these three votes came from agreeing with iamausername. Maybe you forgot your own definition of buddying

I tend to think of buddying as somewhat more sophisticated than what you are implying. To me buddying is stuff like agreeing with someone's reads, defending them against attacks, copying their cases, as well as calling them town.

How am I supposed to think you are town when you are giving no additional reasons for your votes and just copying other people's reasons?

Yeah, can we not do this? C-Worl is town, ThAd is town, let's all rewind a little and notice how Archaist's catch-up post was a whole lot of words that said absolutely nothing and lynch him instead.

Sorry.

Unvote; Vote: Archaist

BTW, Archaist didn't properly read the thread, scumtell.

I bet iamausername is loving the power he has right now of being able to change the votes of ThAdmiral and C-Worl from voting each other to having both of them vote Archaist. Good job!

[iamausername]

I'd love it a lot more if I had the power to make anyone else vote for him!

[Archaist]

Archaist, can you go through the game and give us your reads on people so far? While we've seen people's opinions on individual players so far, we've seen nothing of your opinions on who is scum. If you don't have reads on certain people, at least give us your scumtells.

Sure, thanks for asking politely. Here are my reads on every player:

1. Mitsuru Kirijo: A fairly infrequent poster whose lurking made me somewhat suspicious. However, his first major post #68 seems to be doing some genuine scum hunting. Warning against quicklynches and wanting more time to discuss seems pro-town to me (#78,147). #112 also agrees with my opinion that town reads can be questioned. There seems to be some kind of taboo against questioning reads, I've run into this more than once, and I don't like it. Leaning Town.

2.sAbLLimINal: His very first post he mentions town power roles, suspicious, but nothing major. One of his points I agree with is in his #44:

all C-Worl is trying to do is appeal to emotion

More on that later. He also brings up a good points in his most recent #164. The reasonless vote switching is scummy indeed. Leaning Town.

3. EmpTyger: #49

iama: I want to hear more about this town read too. 1 day later, C-W/Kuz still feels just as contrived.

Not the only player questioning that read, yet iama completely ignores this question, and somehow Kuz is the only one to take any heat from questioning the town read. Very suspicious.

There are legitimate reasons to oppose a townread, although I don't think they apply in this instance.

When he questioned the town read himself, he then jumps on the bandwagon against Kuz for doing so. Opportunistic is an understatement, but he moves on to Rhinox without anyone calling him out on it, so that makes it seem less scummy to me. Leaning Neutral.

4. th3kuzinator: Over-defensive, over-eager, then left. I think he was frustrated, being new to this site, that everyone was jumping on him in his very first game here. Yes, his initial questions would have been better asked elsewhere, but accusing him of "trying to figure out the status quo" (C-Worl #28) is a reach, and it's understandable why someone would get frustrated from such an accusation. Also, not the only person to question iama's read, yet took all the heat for it... yeah, I would be frustrated too. Town.

5. ThAdmiral: Random vote #38, despite the fact that a good amount of actual stuff happened before then. It's his way of "checking in?" (#51), if he's serious that's not a very good reason. Proceeds to go after Kuz for a long time, only to OMGUS C-Worl, then switch back to Kuz/me as soon as iamausername says so. Opportunistic wagon jumping if I ever saw it. While vote hopping in itself isn't necessarily scummy, ThAdmiral seems to just be for whatever wagon seems most likely to lead to a quick lynch. Leaning Scum.

6. C-Worl:

all C-Worl is trying to do is appeal to emotion

And push quicklynches by doing so, as I've already pointed out. Most recently refusing to give me a single quote to back up his statements, instead opting to say "you didn't read." You would think that presenting evidence would be to his benefit, especially since he was accusing me of not presenting enough. Instead just a "no, I'm done talking to you," emotional much? The most impatient player in this game. Impatient for lynching, impatient in answering questions, and vote switching when iamausername says so. Leaning Scum.

7. iamausername: Had a town read on C-Worl for

one line

(#39). Didn't answer EmpTyger's request for clarification but voted Kuz for challenging it (easier wagon?).

no one has indicated a willingness to drop the hammer vote, as far as I remember. I mean, I'd prefer it if someone did, because he's scum, but until that happens, he shouldn't claim.

How are you so certain he's scum?

C-Worl is town, ThAd is town

This brings me to my other point, that I've mentioned before; iamausername seems too sure of himself when he names people town or scum. What makes you think ThAdmiral is town after all the wagon hopping he's done? Leaning Scum.

8. Fishythefish: Goes after sAbLLimINal for mentioning town power role, justified in my opinion. He notices the wagon on Kuz has serious flaws (#74) and makes a good point in his #115

Well, he only called his whole wagon scummy after arguing with every individual player on it.

Not the biggest poster, and doesn't make very controversial statements or accusations. Maybe a cautious player, maybe a bit of lurking in plain sight. Not too sure about him. Leaning Neutral.

9. Rhinox: Comes in a bit late, but soon posts a real post, so not a big deal in my opinion.

kuz asking about gambits and LAL seems like it could be newbscum trying to figure out how much he can get away with

I disagree with this, just as with C-Worl's #28, asking about the game and trying to feel out other players isn't a scum tell, everyone should be trying to get a feel for other players, and asking about the game is an easy way to start the conversation, especially for someone new to the site.

early in the game, when I'm still trying to get started on figuring out player's alignments, I tend to ask questions rather than just coming out and making a point

Which is exactly what Kuz was doing! A bit hypocritical here. Rhinox redeems himself a bit by questioning ThAdmiral's quick L-1 vote on Kuz, and also this:

I questioned iam's town read on cworl because it seemed like a questionable reason to call cworl town.

So now EmpTyger, Rhinox, Kuz, and myself have questioned that read, yet iamausername has not clarified and only Kuz/me gets attacked for it. Rhinox is suspect for attacking Kuz for asking questions, when he admits to doing the same, but seems OK otherwise. Leaning Neutral.

So, there is my read on everyone.

[iamausername]

Everyone who voted for me is scum

[Archaist]

I put words in people's mouths and make up quotes that don't exist.

Please take my reads, and the evidence presented within, for what they are. I'm not making stuff up, all my reasons for my reads are clearly stated above. Perhaps you would like to comment on what I actually wrote, or present a player by player list of your own? Actually, I think it would be helpful if everyone would make such a list.

[Fishythefish]

Right, time to get a grip on this game.

Mitsuru doesn't look good to me. His posting on kuz is ok - saying he doesn't want to hammer him, and with fairly good reasons - but there's really not much else there. He sort of threatens to go for ThAd, while saying he wants reactions before he does anything, but since then he hasn't mentioned him.

Sab's looking fine to me since my early dislike of him. Decent points, nothing bad there.

Emp is someone I've not really liked on the kuz wagon. He pushed it when it was going fast with some pretty weak reasoning, and all in all really I feel he's trying to get kuz's lynch disproportionately hard to his case on kuz. Without even voting him.

kuz I thought did exactly one scummy thing - jumping on a townread which he had no particular reason to dispute, which I think is something scum tend to do a bit more. And that's not even

that

scummy. Flaking is just not a scumtell, and nor is being defensive. Archaist didn't do much except poke at the kuz wagon up until his last post, which I don't like. It's notable that all the people attacking Arch are listed as scummy - 2 IMO for pretty poor reasons (iam for being sure of himself, C-Worl for being impatient), and that noone else is. Feels like he's trying to fight his wagon, not work out who's scum.

ThAd I'm struggling with. He put kuz to L-1, then later criticised him for not claiming there - this still seems bizarre to me from a townie, but with the "hammers recklessly" meta (which I haven't read) I suppose it has to go in the "I wish this wasn't null but it is" column. His votes are rather sheepy, but not in a way I dislike - he's been pretty open about when and who he's sheeping. I think I'll
UNVOTE:

C-Worl looks bad. A few times he's pushed a wagon in a way that's pretty blatantly unfair. His latest "not reading" points on Archaist are obvious BS. Saying that kuz didn't claim in order to make up a good fakeclaim similarly - there was no reason for kuz to claim, and picking an important PR to claim isn't exactly rocket science in a Mini Normal. kuz really never played the newbie card at all - he called himself "some new guy", but it wasn't terribly relevant to the argument, and attacking him for that looks like C-Worl wants an attack to make more than like he's thinking about who's scum. As ever, pushing a wagon too hard for bad reasons can come from over-aggressive town rather than from scum.

iam looks OK here. He's pushing kuz/Arch hard, and I'm not sure where that certainty comes from.

Rhinox I'll think about in a little while, and then I'll vote.

[Fishythefish]

Rhinox's posting is sensible without really committing him to anything. How do you feel about our current wagons, Rhinox?

kuz's wagon isn't massively convincing. The slot's been a bit scummy, but two people (Emp and C-Worl) have been pushing it hard for reasons I dislike.

I think I'm going to

VOTE: MK

For not really doing much of anything while things happen, even though he's been around. Who's scum, MK?

[Beefster]

After taking a lunch break, you return more distracted than ever, splitting the votes. I guess a good portion has managed to settle on one person... or two... or seven.

Votecount 1.7

Archaist (3) - iamausername, ThAdmiral, C-Worl

ThAdmiral (1) - sAb
C-Worl (1) - Archaist
Rhinox (1) - EmpTyger
MK (1) - Fishy

Not Voting

- Mitsuru Kijiro, Rhinox

With 9 players alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Now seeking a replacement for EmpTyger

EmpTyger has responded to his prod and will post soon enough. You're a lucky man, y'know that?

[EmpTyger]

Sorry all, didn't get a usual e-mail notification about the prod. Sorry- am hosting out-of-town people this week, and when not hosting am at work, and am otherwise sleeping. This is just a quick commuting post.


Archaist:
You are badly ignoring context. And getting several facts wrong in the process. I can't quote effectively on iPhone, otherwise I would spell this out in black and white.

iama says he has a townread.
I asked iama for the reasoning behind it.
(Kuz, incidentally, initially ignored it)
iama gives his reasoning.
I thought iama's reasoning sound.

That is very, very different from-

Kuz initially ignored the townread.
iama explains it (in response to others' asking).
Kuz tries to discredit the reasoning.

And that is very different from Rhinox.
And also very different from Fishy's reaction who you left off your list. Interestingly, my reaction is very similar to C-Worl's- who you also left off.

Similarly, re "opportunism"- you are equating me and Rhinox, how? Because I jumped onto a 0-member Rhinox bandwagon, at the precise moment when 0 other players were attacking Rhinox?
The only way that I see for you to label what I did as "opportunism" is if you think Rhinox was genuinely suspicious. (Which in your latest post you do think so.)
So why did you attack me multiple times over it, and then only several posts afterwards say that Rhinox is suspicious?


Rhinox:
It's not the what of the micro, it's the how of the macro.
When you placed your vote on kuz, what were you hoping would happen? What were you expecting would happen?
Other people voted kuz. And you got upset that *your* suspect was being pressured to lynch-1. If there was enough evidence for you to vote, there wasn't enough for additional reasons?


Fishy:
Could you be more specific about what haven't you liked about me regarding kuz?

[ThAdmiral]

You never gave a single reason to any of the votes you casted. You have only been agreeing with other people's thoughts. In fact, two out of these three votes came from agreeing with iamausername. Maybe you forgot your own definition of buddying

I did give a reason for my votes, though. When I initially voted kuz I said I was voting him for the best reason in the game so far. I have since explained my stance on kuz ad nauseum.
I also gave a reason for voting c-worl; admittedly this was after the fact.

I tend to think of buddying as somewhat more sophisticated than what you are implying. To me buddying is stuff like agreeing with someone's reads, defending them against attacks, copying their cases, as well as calling them town.

How am I supposed to think you are town when you are giving no additional reasons for your votes and just copying other people's reasons?

I think that is just my playstyle. I will often find myself agreeing with someone else's case if I believe it is good, especially on day one.

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

I'm thinking ThAd at the moment. I'm not exactly happy with the general bandwagon hopping. First Kuz, then CWorl, and now back to Archaist. Of these votes, both of them have been preceded by votes and quotes from iamausername, which makes me suspicious of him as well, though not quite to the degree of ThAdmiral, since it could just as easily be coincidence, and nothing is concrete.