Open 307-Friends and Enemies Deadly Alliance-Town Wins!!

[zMuffinMan]

/confirm

[zMuffinMan]

VOTE: DK

DK

[zMuffinMan]

Taking a break from work right now.

I just had to say this...

I don't think I've ever laughed as hard at a post as when I read #52. The FoS is brilliant because he doesn't want to change his vote. I was like "Ah, FoS, maybe he's already voting someone he thinks is scu- wait a minute..."

I'll get into this game later.

[zMuffinMan]

@MOD

If I'm reading the setup right, it's possible mafia have the 1-shot day-vig. Confirm?

I've skimmed the walls so far. Will do a proper re-read tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure this para case is being blown way out of proportion.

Someone want to make a concise post detailing what he's done that's scummy and why it's scummy?

[zMuffinMan]

eh, I was going to make a wall catch-up post but I couldn't be bothered.

I'll split up my reads so far into 4 tiers:

First tier is most likely town tier: para, arch, pops

Second tier is my null tier: spad, quar, snake, ranger

Third tier is my most likely scum tier: DJ, LK, snarky

Fourth tier is DK tier: DK

DK tier is not lynch-worthy. At least not this early. And his posts are always funny to read so I don't mind keeping him around even if he's scum. It's also a good way to judge whether I'm reading the game right, because as a standard rule, I'll just take any suspicions he has and go the opposite way to find scum.

Anyone in the third tier is good lynch. Oh, and Spad's pretty close to third tier.

Unvote

VOTE: DonJosh

[zMuffinMan]

I didn't feel like making a catch-up wall with analysis of everything in the game.

If anyone wants an explanation of any of my reads, they're free to ask me for it.

[zMuffinMan]

@Spad,

DK isn't "hurting" town.

I think DJ is scum based on his contributions so far (particularly the whole appeasing LK by voting even though it goes against his principles).

LK I'm categorising as scum for meta reasons. I don't like any of his cases so far, and I'm seeing a lot of insincerity.

Snarky is trying way too hard with DK. The push looks like it's coming from scum. Might as well give my view on self-votes in RVS here... RVS is not a method of creating pressure. There is absolutely no pressure exerted by a random vote. It is, however, a means of creating discussion based on what happens during RVS (bandwagons, reasons for voting or not voting, etc). It just so happens that a self-vote creates a lot more discussion than any other vote, especially votes from people who kid themselves into thinking they're creating pressure during RVS, so I have absolutely no problem with self-voting in RVS. I do, however, see a problem with people thinking it's a scum-motivated act just because it's a self-vote.

And you're dangerously close to getting into my third tier of reads, Spad, because your case on para was craptastic (and full of holes + misreps) and it looks to me like you're latching onto the DK wagon because he's an easy target. He's not the best player, that doesn't make him scum. In general, I think you're unnecessarily overly aggressive, but I'm not getting enough of a scum feeling from your posts to classify you as scum yet.

para's posts make perfect sense to me. town vibes. ditto for pops, although I was leaning slightly scummy on him up until ISO#4. I don't like arch's case on DK but it looks more genuine to me than any of the other players on the DK wagon - willing to categorise him as town for now.

And, er, pretty much everyone in my null category apart from you hasn't really given me much to go on.

That's about as much detail as I'm going to go into right now unless someone wants me to go into more detail on a specific read I have. This is a fairly good summary of my reads, though.

[zMuffinMan]

If you're on LK's naughty list, you get coal at the end of each day. It's not a bad thing, really.

[zMuffinMan]

But DK-scum's vote reason against him is, he voted Archaist because he was the last guy in his wagon.

He'd do this independent of alignment, and it's equally stupid regardless of his alignment.

So no, that's not DK-scum making up an excuse to target someone, that's DK-VI thinking he caught scum.

And what is this "keep him whether he's town or scum"?
MuffMan, town's number 1 agenda is to lynch town, and you want to keep them?

Yeah, I have a good laugh when I read his posts. I like him. Even if he claimed goon, I wouldn't want him lynched D1.

[zMuffinMan]

I am on your scum tier, why? Am I scumhunting poorly?

You're not on my scum tier, you are on my DK tier. It's a special tier I created for you.

As for whether or not you're scum hunting poorly, that's debatable. You could genuinely think you are hunting scum in a good manner, most people would argue that you're not. But that's not important. I don't particularly care whether you do it well, I'm just looking at the underlying motivations and reasons.

I think you're more likely to be town VI than scum VI. But you're in that grey area like andrew94. You get your own tier so I can put you at the back of my mind while I focus on other things.

ZMuffinMan - I want to see more scumhunting from you

I'll hunt scum in my own way. I don't need coaching from you.

Why on Earth would a town not want to lynch a claimed goon?

Well, there are actually a couple very sensible reasons why I wouldn't want to lynch someone who claims "goon". But DK is cool with me, if I'm ever feeling a bit depressed, I can count on his posts to cheer me up.

The question here is: Why do you think that's a slip?

Re: Your three reasons for finding DK scummy.

1) Self-voting in RVS is not scummy.
2) I don't see where he cemented that he's not helping town
3) What he was doing was not the same as OMGUS (no, OMGUS isn't as simple as voting for a person voting for you)

[zMuffinMan]

You can start by stating your sensible reasons on why you wouldn't want to lynch the mafia

I said there are a couple sensible reasons not to lynch someone who claims "goon", but if you're asking me why I wouldn't lynch DK if he claimed goon, it would be because he's not an immediate threat and I would consider the possibility that somewhere in his mind he thinks it's a reasonable thing to do as town.

You're taking this too seriously and you need to lighten up.

He voted himself so the town will question him. Do you think that helps town?

Yes, I do. I'd argue that it has helped town in creating discussion, and I'd argue it's something that a competent town player would do to gauge reactions. He wasn't doing anything scummy, he was just self-voting.

Really?
Doesn't this look like OMGUS? Tell me why not.

Because it's not OMGUS. Like I said, OMGUS isn't as simple as pointing fingers at someone voting for you, and even if it were, that's not a scum tell.

[zMuffinMan]

Either you are an SK trying to play it safe, a Pro-town, or a scum. Now, I know that your next post will be to defend this statement

No, I'm not going to defend myself here. I think you've accurately summed up all the possibilities. And more.

Also, I am asking you for a complete read on all your suspects so far, you said you would supply if we asked. This might change my view on you.

What are you asking here? My reads? I gave. Not much has changed. Elaboration on my reads? I did that, partially, but I suppose I could be more detailed. Will I go into more detail? No. Not unless I see a need to.

You were only joking about Muffin being the SK right?

And spad's wondering why I'd want to keep him around...

[zMuffinMan]

I also don't like his reasoning of keeping a scummy player around for the laughs, that seems like an attempt to defend DeityKabuto, while trying to seem not that intent on doing so.

In order for this to be true, other people would have to 1) take me seriously and 2) agree with this philosophy.

Is that what you think is happening?

DJ hadn't made any contributions at this point, except for his post where he appeased LK. Yes, that was suspicious, but there's a lot going on and you single out one player who only made one post of substance. Other players have lurked too.

There's a difference between inactivity (which may or may not be lurking) and what DJ did (which can be categorised as active lurking, appeasing, etc).

You have so much more here on Spad then DJ's one suspicious post, don't you think?

Are you trying to coach me into voting spad over DJ?


Short-lived vote on me. Oh well. Not that I'm complaining.

[zMuffinMan]

A DK lynch will confirm Muffin's alignment later.

Elaborate.

[zMuffinMan]

You've tried to defend him by just saying he's funny.

And?

How would his flip confirm my alignment?

Try to answer the question like this:

If he flips scum, it means zMuffinMan is ____ because of ____.
If he flips town, it means zMuffinMan is ____ because of ____.

[zMuffinMan]

You're here to play the game, not to chat.

You're right! Games are no place for fun and games. This is serious business.

I need some elaboration on how it makes sense that I'm scum if DK flips scum. Surely if what I said was scummy, it would be scummy regardless of DK's flip.

And if that's the case, it would be smarter to pile votes on me instead of DK.

I'm just putting this out there because you'd be the third or fourth person that has said "well zMuffinMan is scummy for doing that but I wanna see DK's flip because it's possible he's scum" - herpityderp, that's not a good reason for lynching DK and he's done nothing that indicates he's scum. I don't think I've done anything scummy, either, but apparently I have.

And no, I'm not oversimplifying anything here. The only case on DK is "it's possible he's scum"; he hasn't exhibited any scum tells or outright scummy behaviour. People need to find a good reason to be on that wagon or get off it.

[zMuffinMan]

OMGUS isn't scummy, and what he's doing isn't OMGUS. For like the 69th time in this game, OMGUS isn't as simple as accusing someone who is accusing you.

The only thing that could be called "scummy" about DK's claim is how early it came, but even then, I have meta on him that suggests he just doesn't know any better regardless of his alignment, and I would go so far as to say this makes it more likely he's town.

You're the one sticking up for DK here, so it would make sense that if he was scum you could be a scumbuddy sticking up for him. If there's the possibility that DK flips town it doesn't completely clear your name. (At least in my eyes.)

Look, this is a setup where the only town PRs are masons. Scum isn't any more or less likely to defend their scum buddies. In fact, it wouldn't be an unreasonable assumption if DK flips scum that one or both of his buddies were hyper-bussing for town cred, and considering the strength of the case on DK (or rather the lack of strength), this isn't an unlikely assumption.

On that note, the fact I'm defending DK is only because there is no real case on him. He isn't going to flip scum. He's not the best player, but that doesn't make him scum.

So after vigging off DK, who would be your candidate for a lynch?

Wouldn't that be the point of discussion based on the vig shot?

[zMuffinMan]

If he is town he shouldn't of hurt the town with his lame claim

It didn't really hurt town.

(1) and (3) are untrue, and irrelevant. I'd cite times I've seen him flip vanilla after early-claiming vanilla but I don't want to talk about ongoing games. You can check his games and check his meta when he flips town if you want.

(2) maybe, but I disagree. I'm getting town vibes from him. Newb-scum may do it, but so what?

(4) well, he's not the best player, but what difference does that make if he's town? Worry about that when we're close to a situation it actually matters.

And (5)-(7) I think you already know the reason I think these are crap very, very well.

Wait wait wait, so what you're saying is that the only reason why you said 'you wouldn't want to off DK even if he was scum' was because there's no real case on him?

I think you need to learn to tell the difference between an obviously sarcastic joke and me being serious.

If I thought DK was scum, I'd get rid of him, as fun as it is to read his posts. He's not scum. There is no case on him.

What makes you so sure that he isn't scum? Just meta?

He isn't doing anything I consider scummy, I'm getting town vibes from his posts, and yes, meta.

[zMuffinMan]

Oh, and for the record, I think the vig shot should be used D1 or D2 at the latest. There are a number of reasons this should make sense to everyone.

[zMuffinMan]

There's no case on DK though, it's just people saying OMGUS is scummy and he self-voted in RVS. Add to that the early VT claim.

Nothing there is scummy. Bad play, maybe - arguable. But scummy? No.

[zMuffinMan]

I'm not sure how someone claiming goon makes them confirmed scum or how anyone can really be confirmed scum in this game pre-flip.

Nor am I sure where you're getting the idea that I'd keep him around if I really thought he was scum. You're trying too hard to find something that's not there.

But, like I said, if you think what I did is scummy, DK's flip shouldn't matter and you should think I'm more likely scum than him, especially since

you have no real case on him

. Why not forget about DK, then? Since I'm calling him town, and I've done something you think is really scummy and you think I'm lying about it being a joke, why not go after me? Surely pursuing my lynch would be smarter, right?

[zMuffinMan]

This covers what I want to respond to before page 10, which seems to be infested with walls. So I'll read through that soon.

No one in their right mind would claim mafia goon, so if they did claim goon (which once again, is just ludicrous) should confirm them as scum, and if they do so, lynch 'em.

No.

You justified your stance earlier by offering an actual reason why you'd keep him around, and that was "he'd be a rather ineffective scum player." Don't say that I'm trying to find something that isn't there when it's literally right there (and just one post above yours.)

The premise here is that someone claiming goon is scum, so no.

Why are you trying to deflect attention off of DK? He claims he's scumhunting yet I've yet to see any real scumhunting from him, he's just pointing fingers mostly at those on his bandwagon shouting "YOU'RE SCUM! ALL THREE OF YOU ARE SCUM!" You might be right on DK being ineffective scum, but at the end of the day scum is scum, and they must hang.

Why am I trying to deflect attention off a townie? Well, I don't know. I figured getting rid of scum would be top priority. Guess I'm wrong about how this game is meant to be played.

You claim he hasn't been scum hunting.

I'll put this back on you. I'm claiming you haven't done any real scum hunting.

You're accusing DK of being scum because he:

- OMGUS - no, he didn't OMGUS. Yes, he attacked people who were attacking him, but if you actually read why he was doing it, you'd see it wasn't as simple as "they're attacking me". I'm not saying he had the best reasons, but it's not as simple as OMGUS
- He isn't scum hunting - well, he is. Maybe he's not the best at it, but he's still trying.

What else have you done?

FoS me for saying I wouldn't lynch someone who claimed goon.

TBH, if it's between you and DK, DK has done a mountain more scum hunting than you have. You have no case on the person you're accusing, you have less of a case on the person you're FoSing.

[zMuffinMan]

@Snarky,

You listed 8 reasons you dislike or hate DK's play. A constant theme of what you don't "like" but not what you think is scummy.

Can you explain what parts of DK's play you think are actually scummy and why?



Re:#230

Wow...

Can anyone actually read this and tell me they think Toro is town?

Look at the reasons for his reads, particularly his last 4 reads. He's got no read on arch, no read on snarky (and mentions fluff about DK=DeityKabuto, as though that's something to be suspicious about...), his read on DonJosh is that DJ is scummy because it's possible he's using his phone to lurk, and his read on para is that para voted someone he thought was pro-town (which, if you've been reading, is not really what happened at all).

This is probably the most contrived list of reads I have ever read. And that's not even dissecting how bad his cases on DK and I are.



I want everyone's read on Toro.

[zMuffinMan]

Really now? In what possible scenario would you NOT lynch a person who claimed mafia goon?

I don't try to lynch people unless I think they're scum.

But do you deny that you wouldn't mind keeping around an ineffective scum player.

You're trying way too hard to twist my words here.

So now DK is a confirmed townie? Hmm, interesting.

And again...

I'm currently matching you up with DK, so yeah, I believe I'm doing some scum hunting.

Maybe if you opened your eyes and quit tiptoeing around my question you'd see I'm building my case on you.

Yeah, no.

You're not scum hunting, you're just twisting my words and trying to make it look like there's something wrong with what I said.

Even if I did say I wouldn't want scum lynched, that's at best a null tell on my alignment, because it's not something I'd say as either scum or town. Hint: It's probably not something I'd say seriously.

But I didn't say that. You're looking for something that's not there to paint me in a negative light.

Here's the thing though: you're calling what you're doing "scum hunting". Which is a joke. You're not scum hunting. You're scum trying to make it look like you're scum hunting.

You're ignoring the fact that you have no case on DK. You're focusing on me defending DK while twisting my words.

That's so amazingly scummy it's not funny.

Here's another question, how do you feel knowing that DK puts you on a shortlist of players for the vig to kill, yet he indicates he thinks you're leaning pro-town? Why is it you are on that list when Archaist is not?

TBH, any day vig that listens to DK deserves to be day vigged themselves.

Why are you asking me about that? Why not ask DK himself? You know, since he made the list. Derp.

Unvote

VOTE: Toro

[zMuffinMan]

Of course all of this goes out the window if they're an ineffective scum right? I'm not twisting my words on this you said, and you didn't deny it right off the bat.

Quote me directly. Point out where I said I wouldn't lynch scum.

You speak as if you know that DK is a townie.

And?

If you weren't too busy doing something else, I just did ask DK that. Derp.

So you asked me a redundant fluff question?

Right.

And you're still ignoring the fact you have no case on DK and you're still ignoring the fact that your only "case" on me is that I apparently said I don't want to lynch scum.

Try harder.

[zMuffinMan]

You said you wouldn't lynch DK if he was scum, because he'd be ineffective as scum.

No, I didn't.

I said I wouldn't lynch him if he claimed goon and I gave two reason for that.

So you know he's a townie?

No.

But you said I am speaking as if I know it.

I wanted to know what you made of it.

No, I asked how you felt about that, why would DK put a player that he trusts on his 'vig-kill' list?

And another thing, why would he ask you to lead the town in scumhunting for D2 if he'd want you to be vigged?

This may come as a surprise, but I'm not DK. I can't really answer those questions.

Nor do I feel anything about it until he clarifies why he did it.

[zMuffinMan]

Yeah, because pointing out there is no good case on DK is defending him. That makes perfect sense.

I see a terrible case, I see terrible wagon, of course I'm going to comment on it.

The DK wagon needs to die unless someone can explain how he's actually been scummy. Because I haven't seen anyone give a good explanation for why he's scum. And that includes you Snarky, because out of the 8 things you dislike about DK's play, a grand total of zero are actually scummy.

[zMuffinMan]

Saying that is quite easy for you. How aren't they scummy?What's your definition of the word scummy? What are DK's towntells? What can you say to disproove my case? Please, if you really think he is town, convince me other than just shouting he isn't scummy he isn't scummy.

Wait... This is coming from someone that's telling me there's 8 things he doesn't "like" about DK's play but not explaining how any of those things are actually scummy?

Yeah, that makes sense.

It's like if I say, "well, you using the word 'quite' is scummy" and you retaliating with, "that's not scummy" then me saying, "Oh yeah, prove it!"

It's your job to prove your accusation. I don't care what you don't like about DK's play. I asked you to tell me why the things you say are scummy are actually scummy and you've made no effort to do so.

Can you explain what parts of DK's play you think are actually scummy and why?

You called him scummy.

You said there are things you don't "like" about his play.

I asked you to show me how they are scummy and why.

At this point, I don't care if you're repeating what you may have already said, just go into detail about why the 8 things you said are scummy are actually scummy.


--

Again, why wouldn't you want to lynch a claimed goon? Who in their right mind would do that?

A VI

It sounded as if you KNEW what DK's alignment was.

And? If you thought that, wouldn't your vote be in the wrong place?

I just asked for your opinion on his actions, why can't you make a post about it prior to what he says?

Because I don't understand his thought process.

--

Look, I've asked everyone on this DK wagon to provide a good reason they think he's scum. Whether or not he's playing badly, he is not playing in a scummy way. If you think he is, show me why.

So far Toro has ignored my requests to do so, Snarky is avoiding it as well by telling me it's my job to prove he's not scummy (HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR) and no one else has tried that I've seen.

Poor effort.

[zMuffinMan]

@Snarky,

OK, that's all I wanted. Just justification instead of calling it scummy without explaining why it's actually scummy.

Now I can actually dissect it and tell you why I don't agree with the parts I don't agree with. Get some real conversation going instead of just "I think that's scummy".

1) I don't actually know whether or not DK knew what the Slayer's gambit was going into this game, and as far as I can remember, he didn't mention it at all. Also I'm not entirely convinced he was trying to pull off this gambit, because self-voting in RVS simply isn't scummy. It's odd, not scummy. Like I've said previously, RVS is a method of generating discussion. Self votes generate discussion more often than not.

2) I see your point here, but I don't think he's scummy for thinking everyone on his wagon is scum. I don't think he initially attacked everyone on his wagon, but when people started piling votes on him for reasons he considered bad, he started accusing them of being scum looking for an easy lynch. While this isn't the best approach is scum hunting, I don't think this is scummy - just bad play.

3) Tunneling isn't necessarily scummy. It's anti-town for a few reasons, but it's not scummy. Also DK isn't the only one who's been tunneling.

4) Self-preservation when you're getting run up to be lynched is part of scum hunting. If you know you're a townie, it's your job to do everything in your power to find out who's scum and redirect the lynch to them. Of course, it's also in scum's best interests to do the same, but self-preservation is a null tell for me. As for the early claim, I'd normally consider it anti-town (although in a game where the only PRs are masons, not so much) but I have meta reasons that verify he does early claim as town. That doesn't mean he's definitely town because he early claimed, and it is still an anti-town thing to do, but this is in no way scummy.

5) I never regard appeals to emotion as scummy. They aren't a good defense, but they're not scummy.

6) This did strike me as odd. I'm not actually going to defend him here. It was downright stupid and makes no sense to me. That said, I don't think it's necessarily scummy.

7) This is something I've come across in previous games. And it's the same reason I'm patient with people when I ask them questions and don't get the response I want. It's generally not because they can't answer it, it's because they don't know what is being asked of them or why they need to answer it.

8) Eh, your interpretation. It's entirely possible he's trying a strategy he's seen someone do in another game. This seems more likely to me.

[zMuffinMan]

And, for the record, this is how I prefer people explain their cases, instead of just calling something scummy. It lets me analyse the reasons you think someone is scum a bit deeper, and you can also look at my responses and analyse why I agree or disagree.

I've been called annoying because of this playstyle, but this works best for me in figuring out motivations. Bare with me if I seem like I'm making you repeat yourself.

[zMuffinMan]

Also, some of my justification for thinking DK isn't scummy apply exclusively to DK. For example, if LK early claimed VT, I'd want him lynched, no questions asked. DK doing it doesn't bother me as much.

So yes, a lot of the reason I think the case on DK is crap is meta.

[zMuffinMan]

Cool.

Vig DK.

See him flip town.

Move on to lynching Toro-scum.

Nothing else to add.

[zMuffinMan]

I feel like there's two scum teams,

Say Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

Slip of the year right here folks.

Oh, come on, really? Not only did Toro-scum take this completely out of context, but he's trying to call it a slip.

How are people so blind to this?

If Toro isn't scum, he's doing a good job acting the part.

[zMuffinMan]

Look, nobody ever accused DK of being the brightest player. I don't know why he made a statement like that, but it was pretty clear what the underlying implication of the statement was (especially in context, which you seem to conveniently be forgetting) and it was in no way indicative of his alignment. Maybe indicative of him being VI, but not indicative of him being scum.

But you don't really care. You're either scum or town VI, ignoring the fact you don't have any good reason to be suspicious of DK and looking for anything that you can call suspicious.

[zMuffinMan]

Oh, and I'd still like to hear why you're so sure DK is scum.

So far the only things I've seen from you are that he wasn't scum hunting (untrue, the effectiveness of his methods is debatable however), he used OMGUS (untrue and not a scum tell anyway) and that there's some connection to me (lol).

You want DK's flip because you think it will determine my alignment. Here's the thing though: Regardless of DK's flip, I'm town.

This is also why I'm very interested in Spadille's explanation of why DK's flip

will

determine my alignment (he's not being wishy-washy, he thinks DK's flip will determine my alignment regardless of the flip). But he won't explain this until after DK's flip because it would apparently wreak havoc. Which is funny, because we're sitting around with DK at L-1 waiting for something to happen because no one wants to budge on the issue, so now would be a perfect time for Spadille to discuss his expert deduction.

[zMuffinMan]

1) OMGUS isn't really a scum tell (more a bad-play tell), and DK wasn't simply OMGUSing. pops summed this one up fairly concisely, though...

DK posted about where he though each of his attackers was coming from. I don't know the exact post, it was recent when I posted or I would have quoted it. Analyzing the motivations of the people wagonning you reduces OMGUS bias the way measuring your half of a cookie makes it more difficult to insist your sibling got the bigger half. It doesn't dispense with it entirely no, and I would agree DK is somewhat biased against his attackers. But he is trying.

2) This isn't a reason to assume he is scum. There are also many different possible interpretations of the information here, and you're making assumptions that are blatantly wrong.

3) Yeah, again, nobody ever accused DK of being the best player. It's possible this could be considered a slip. I think it's more likely he's just... not a very good player and is frustrated with the assault on him.

[zMuffinMan]

masons don't need to claim unless one of them is run up to L-1 and asked to claim. They definitely should not claim D1 for any other reason.

[zMuffinMan]

What really doesn't sit well with me about the DK wagon is the people on it.

There's got to be 2 scum on it, and since I have town reads on 3 of the players not on the wagon, the only possible off-wagon scum I'm considering are cj/chk(dj) and I think only one of them is scum.

Toro makes sense as scum. LK, spad and Arch also make sense. Snake is just meh. Snarky is less suspicious purely because he put effort into making a case, and as much as I disagree with it, I can see where he's coming from.

[zMuffinMan]

Yeah, but that's the thing. Looking at the people on his wagon, I know that he's not going to flip scum. The fact I have a town read on him doesn't even weigh in now. That wagon has 2 scum on it.

Also you know why I think your reasons 5-7 for lynching DK are absolute bullshit, so don't tell me that you've given 4 good reasons to lynch him.

[zMuffinMan]

I got a better idea. Vig vigges Toro, and if I'm right about Toro, you get off the DK wagon.

How's that sound?

[zMuffinMan]

I'm not good with emoticons. Going to need a little bit more than that if you actually want me to respond to something about my #357, although I am interested in how you made that face at all. It it's a birth defect or something, I apologise for prying.

[zMuffinMan]

Unvote

5 pages and a goon flip. I sort of skimmed but

Toro lynch bad after Snarky flip. Hint: Snarky was either majorly buddying my while bussing one of his partners, or Toro is town.

Going to do a full re-read soon.

[zMuffinMan]

Actually, it's going to take a while for me to re-read this, so just briefly.

Snarky scum =

DK town
pops town
toro prob-town

Snake is a good lynch. More later.

[zMuffinMan]

OK I've been at a seminar all day and I got 3 hours sleep last night so I'm not in any state to sift through 20 pages of stuff right now. Going to read this again after some sleep. Toro lynch still bad, though.

[zMuffinMan]

OK, after Snarky flip, I ruled suspects down to chk, arch, cj, snake, LK

Of that list, I'd be more comfortable getting rid of Arch or LK than the other 3.

First priority for this game is reading the thread with Snarky's flip in mind, second priority is reading Snarky in ISO. Will get around to this some time in the next few hours, prob.

[zMuffinMan]

I'm not hammering chk any time soon. Also would prefer the hammer doesn't come until at least a few hours from now.

3) Bussed the Toro slot shortly before his death when under pressure of being vigged.

No, LK. Bad, LK. He started pushing a Toro vig way, way, way before he was under any "pressure" as far as I can tell, but I briefly skimmed 16-20 last night so I may have missed where he came under this "pressure".

The cj "bus" is a possibility just to disassociate himself from cj, but the Toro "bus" was him seriously trying to get Toro killed, or at least that's how I read it. And I don't think it was bussing at all.

[zMuffinMan]

he claim was a joke. I said I didn't have my role PM ffs, why would that be serious?

This.

Caught up on my other games, reading this one now.

[zMuffinMan]

Arch is a good lynch. LK is meh.

Thoughts on LK:

ugh. 200 posts in LK's ISO.

I really hate your playstyle. For your first 30 posts you expressed suspicion of Snarky, then came DK's VT claim, at which point you hopped on the DK wagon. I hate this for so many reasons but I'm not going to go into detail when you already know why I hate it. The next 80 posts was you pushing for a DK vig, until finally Snarky posts something and you jump back on him while supporting the idea of a Toro vig. Posts before and after the Snarky flip look so disingenuous that I feel like lynching you just for posting the way you did, there. The whole "zomg you vigged Snarky!!?!?!?" to the "Well, you had us fooled, Snarky" before his flip was just meh.

I'm still not following how immediately after Snarky's flip you thought Toro was a good lynch (you and Arch, actually). Your push to keep Toro under suspicion in recent pages is just bad. It looks far more likely that Snarky was trying to get a vig going on Toro because he's town. All I've seen from you is "it's possible he's bussing" but it really makes no sense to assume he's bussing when it's far more likely he wanted a townie to be vigged.

Thoughts on Arch:

Tries way, way, way, way, way too hard to push the DK lynch. Ignored really mentioning much about Snarky at all pre-flip. Also Snarky's own interaction with him is interesting - we have Snarky criticising DK's case on Arch (I'm inclined to consider this possible chainsawing), and Arch getting a "neutral-to-town" read on Arch because of "town vibes from his analyses". I'm more inclined to believe Snarky was trying to distance himself from buddies by not mentioning them much than I am to believe he'd call them "scum" or "town" or push for their death D1, which makes me feel good about Arch being scum.

Also the lack of explanation as to why his vote "needs" to be on Toro.

[zMuffinMan]

So I've read cj in ISO, and I need someone to flesh out a case on cj, because he's playing town in my eyes.

I do not think cj would bus Snarky like he did and his arguments are well-reasoned. I don't agree that Spadille is necessarily scum by association with Snarky, but I think that's cj-town making a connection and not cj-scum after bussing his partner.

As for chk, the things I don't like about his slot are:

- He replaced DJ (yeah, I'm holding this against him)
- Asking Toro for a "sufficient" claim (this could just be poor phrasing, but it made me raise an eyebrow when I read it)
- Constant reminders that he's VT (I'm willing to believe it was a joke initially, but repeated in ISO#4 and ISO#13 makes this invalid)

But I'm not at all convinced he's scum. His reaction is either scum trying way too hard to seem like a frustrated townie or he's genuinely a frustrated townie. Props for the acting if he is scum.

[zMuffinMan]

I push the DK case because he looks so scummy to me I can't understand why he survived so long, unless everyone else thinks he's just a VI. I think you're reaching a bit with Snarky's reads on me. Calling someone neutral or slightly town doesn't mean much. It seems like you're mainly focusing on people who went after DK, since scum Snarky did the same. Going after the same person as a scum player, especially when there is good reason to, is not scummy.

I am going after people on the DK wagon, because it was infested with scum. I still think there was at least one other scum on that wagon.

The links between you and Snarky are somewhat vague. you are correct. And that's because I think Snarky would be more likely to be vague about his partners. For example, I'm almost 100% DK is not scum at this point just based on the Snarky flip. Toro I'm not as sure of, but still pretty sure. On the other end of the spectrum, I don't think any players he called "town" are partners, either. His partners are likely to be somewhere in his null->town/null category. BTW, you're the only person he was "neutral" on - he was null on others. Whether that has any special meaning, I'm not too sure.

Because I realized a DK lynch wasn't going to happen anytime soon, and a Toro lynch would reveal a good bit of information about you, since you were willing to bet on him being scum. Parabollocks also seemed quite sure of himself when voting Toro.

How does Toro's lynch/flip reveal a "good bit of information" about me? Yeah, I was willing to bet on him being scum prior to Snarky's flip because that DK wagon was scum-infested and I was more sure about Toro than the others. Not anymore.

[zMuffinMan]

Oh, and Spad still needs to explain the whole "DK's flip

will

give information about muffin's alignment" that he was sure of it at one point. I don't care that we didn't end up lynching DK, I still want an explanation for it.

[zMuffinMan]

I know, I know.

But he claimed VT

I could understand normally how this would be a big deal, but after day-vigging scum D1 and the fact that the only power roles are masons, this isn't that big a deal to me. Obviously a lot of people claiming VT is bad for masons, and I'd be wary if everyone started doing it, but it wasn't that big a deal that he did that.

Like, I mean, which would you rather? Protect the masons or catch scum?

I'm just disappointed he was quickhammered, but the fact he was quickhammered by one of my top suspects is interesting. He's right that we had plenty of time for discussion. Even if you're sure he's scum, no matter what he does, he can't erase his early actions, so it's not like letting him live a bit longer before lynching him was going to make a difference if you still thought he was scum.

[zMuffinMan]

Oh, right, I thought #593 was a rage post after getting lynched

[zMuffinMan]

I've got an idea.

chk-town unvotes.

At this point, I don't particularly care whether you're town or scum, I need to flesh out some of my reads after the Snarky flip and it's been less than a day real time since it happened.

P-edit: didn't think twilight posts counted.

[zMuffinMan]

You called my "case" on Arch crap, but I don't really think it is. It's pure speculation and WIFOM, but it makes just much sense as your entire case on cj which is... pure speculation and WIFOM. Your case is literally "he did this and scum would do this so he is scum". It doesn't work like that in reality.

Also, re: calling out masons. This isn't scummy at all. It's actually something I was seriously considering after the vig, for VCA purposes, but I think it's best if they wait until D2 when we've had a lynch and a NK.

[zMuffinMan]

For the moment, removing Arch and myself, who would your scum suspects be?

(I say remove myself because I have done the same for you)

I don't think you should be 'removing' me if I'm still a suspect of yours.

You're asking an insignificant question. The only player I'd be willing to rule out altogether as scum is pops. After that, there are varying degrees of likelihood, but I can't just rule out certain players and ignore them for no reason, so why does it matter what I'd do if I 'removed' you and Arch? You're still in the game. As long as you're in the game, I'll be suspicious of you until I see reason not to be.

[zMuffinMan]

Spad or Snake. After that is a grey area. The DK wagon was bad. The Toro and chk wagons that formed after the Snarky flip were also bad. I'm looking at those wagons before I look at anything else, because my scumdar is going off like crazy from them. Not that all 3 of chk, Toro and DK are town, but something is off with those wagons (this is just gut more than logic). But, like I said, I need to flesh out my reads after the Snarky flip and one day simply isn't enough time.

[zMuffinMan]

I'm actually interested in this case on me, too.

More interested since it appears LK is softclaiming mason here, which is just outright stupid.

[zMuffinMan]

You're amazingly insightful, LK.

[zMuffinMan]

Look, LK, even suppose I listed all 3 masons in 4 possible scum reads of mine (which you seem to be softly suggesting I've done), do you think that maybe, just maybe, it could be because they've been giving off associative tells while on wagons that I think are most likely mislynches? Put two and two together.

[zMuffinMan]

Even if I am wrong about every scum read of mine, there's clearly a reason why I wasn't comfortable ending the day a few pages back when I thought chk had been lynched.

I don't commit to any reads I have until I'm pushing for a lynch on one of my reads, and even then, it's possible I've misinterpreted information.

You asked for my scum reads. You got them. They are not strong scum reads since I am clearly not voting for them, and I want to flesh them out before I make any real assumptions.

I'm really interested in the game you're currently playing, though. Also interested in this scum slip you've found from me.

[zMuffinMan]

Right, you've shown that I was less supicious of Snarky when I saw he put effort into making a case on DK, which I disagreed with.

My scum list matches the possible scum I've been looking at all game. Hint: You were all on the DK wagon, and I called 2 scum being on it. Snarky, it turns out, was one of them. The fact that you're suggesting I'm pulling it out of nowhere is amusing.

By the way, you've done nothing to show Toro is clearly implicated by Snarky as a partner. You've just said "Snarky was bussing Toro - look, see, he did it there! Bussing, no other explanation!"

As strong a case as that may be (almost as strong as your case on me), it's simply not convincing me.

[zMuffinMan]

zMuffin, were you suspicious of Snarky before he was vigged?

He wasn't my top suspect, but I was suspicious of everyone on the DK wagon because I thought it was a really bad wagon. At the time of my last posts prior to the vig kill, I was asking for people to give me good reasons they were voting DK. He put effort in, others didn't, so I was more suspicious of the other people on the wagon. I never moved him anywhere near a town read.

You never specifically addressed my response to your original post. I DID respond to that and yes I DO clearly show how Snarky twice has scum motivation for bussing Toro. You have not responded to my specific points.

Repeat it or link it, because I must have missed where you laid out this solid case on Toro, and if it was really all that solid, I'd assume you would be pushing it harder than you have been.

@Muffin: If you are town you will try and figure out why I'm declaring you as scum and how I could come to such a conclusion. When you have done that we can work together to lynch scum today. Otherwise I only want your lynch.

I can see a few possible reasons why you're 'declaring' me scum. None of them make me want to sheep you.

[zMuffinMan]

No, really, nothing you do is going to make me want to sheep you. I won't sheep the masons if they claim, I won't sheep pops even though he's pretty much confirmed town, and I'm sure as hell not going to sheep you because you don't like my votes and you're threatening to push for my lynch if I don't agree with you.

Even if the mod declared you confirmed town, I'd take your reads with a grain of salt if they didn't agree with mine.

As for your case on Toro, it's not as black and white as you keep suggesting it is.

Toro might be scum with Snarky, and Snarky might have been bussing him for town cred (by bussing him very, very weakly). It's far more likely in my mind that Snarky was trying to get the vig to waste a shot on town before falling back on the DK wagon for what would likely have been 2 town kills D1 (and a third before D2).

[zMuffinMan]

I'm not ruling Toro out, but like you keep suggesting, there are good and bad lynches right now. Toro is on the "bad lynch" page. It's got a name with a couple other people that are bad lynches based on the Snarky-vig.

He's in no way confirmed town. But you've been pushing this bussing possibility really, really hard.

[zMuffinMan]

People are actually giving Snarky credit for implicating Toro as if it couldn't be a bus. That just isn't true. It could be a bus.

No. I am not completely ruling out the possibility that Snarky bussed Toro. But if you're asking me whether I think it's likely, then no. It's something to consider later in the game, maybe. Not now, though.

I was asked if I was claiming mason. Wth do you want me to say. I'm not claiming mason. I'm claiming town aligned, that's it.

Right, but what was the point of affirming you're "town-aligned"?

[zMuffinMan]

This is a really, really pro-town line of discussion, and while I wouldn't want to act all scummy and suggest you don't tell us who you think the masons are, I kind of want to egg you on to see if you'll do it.

[zMuffinMan]

As much fun as it would be to stick around and argue with you right now, LK, it's 2:30am and I can't say I'm thinking straight.

I'll tell you what, though. If this head mason has a problem with me, he can take it up with me personally. I'm happy to argue with him if he really finds me scummy. Until then, maybe let the head mason decide what's best for him and his peons.

[zMuffinMan]

Right.

This would be the second time now that Spad has been pushing for a lynch on someone to "confirm" someone else's alignment, when there really is no "if a then b" scenario here. Maybe if I flipped scum, LK wouldn't be scum, but me flipping town isn't going to give you any extra information on LK's alignment, so it's a really stupid reason to vote for me. Whether or not he's right or wrong about me is not reason to suspect him. Anyone who's ever talked about someone setting up chain lynches should take a pretty close look at the reasons Spad has put his votes on different people in this game.

@Spad,

You still haven't given the explanation you alluded to here, and since you're doing it again, fully explain it. Explain how you came to the conclusion that DK's flip would give you solid information on me, and explain how you've come to the conclusion that my flip will give you solid information on LK.

LK's play is just blatantly anti-town, but it has the benefit of looking way, way, way too scummy to actually be scum. His suspicion of me alone isn't actually reason to believe my flip gives you any information.

[zMuffinMan]

Oh, I've seen you mention that you think I'm scum, but I don't think I've seen you actually explain why you think it's likely.

I don't think anyone has properly explained why it's likely. The closest we have to an explanation is LK telling us that I must be scum because my scum suspects match his mason suspects, which is a joke of a reason to suspect me anyway.

[zMuffinMan]

@Muffin
Don't act like your question hasn't still been answered by Archaist.

It was never answered by Archaist and it was never answered by you.

If you flipped scum, LK is a townie.
If you flipped town, LK's got a ticket to hell since he role-fished and actually made a case out of it.

The first premise I don't have much of a problem with, because it's not going to happen and I could see why you'd believe it.
The second premise is what I have an issue with. You call it "role-fishing" but it was just him stupidly telling people who he thinks the masons are. He could be wrong, he could be right, but there was no "fishing". It was anti-town play, but it was not rolefishing.

In any case, what I can basically surmise from this is: You think LK is scummy, but you want to set up his lynch after mislynching me.

[zMuffinMan]

And just to clarify...

Do you actually agree with LK's case? Or do you have a case of your own against me?

Or are you just calling for my lynch because a mislynch doesn't matter, in your opinion?

[zMuffinMan]

@jil,

You replaced into a slot I had a town read on, and you've done nothing to weaken or strengthen that read.

I think you're inexperienced, and I haven't seen you give a real reason to suspect me. I'm not going to try to convince you of my innocence. If you look at my play and genuinely think I'm scum, then nothing I say or do is going to change your mind. The least I can do in the mean time is actively search for the people I do think are scum, and that's all I'm going to be doing this game.

The problem I have with Spadille is that he's suggesting lynching me is good because he doesn't think mislynching is a big deal D1 (now that pops vigged scum) and he thinks it will confirm LK's alignment (which it won't). He also thinks LK has exhibited genuinely scummy behaviour, but he's trying to set up my mislynch first before going after LK. Spad hasn't actually given a good reason to suspect I'm scum.

[zMuffinMan]

I believe spad's leaning town, because if he were scum, he wouldn't say he's not a mason, he would let people keep believing that. He also has no reason to say he's not mason if he is

Couple things with this.

1) There is plenty of reason for Spad-as-scum to deny he's a mason if he's trying to make LK look bad.
2) There is plenty of reason for Spad-as-mason to deny he's a mason if he's trying to throw scum off his trail.

His denial of being a mason is null, and it doesn't make him any more or less likely to be anything.

[zMuffinMan]

Being scum is balance of not getting lynched and getting the lynches you want.

One possibility I'm considering right now is that LK is town and Spad is scum. And the scenario I see playing out here is Spad pushing my lynch here, seeing me flip town, then going, "Oh, now we have to lynch LK", getting him lynched then playing the, "Whoops, well he was just a really scummy townie" card.

So the benefit in denying he's a mason is making LK look bad and setting up 2 mislynches.

Of course, I could be way off, but my paranoia has been kicking in ever since Spad suggested he's perfectly fine with my mislynch if it lets him get LK lynched tomorrow.

[zMuffinMan]

You should always be paranoid. Whether your paranoia is justified, or whether you make decisions based on your paranoia is another matter altogether.

[zMuffinMan]

Actually, on top of the questions I've already asked of Spad, I want to know whether his theory extends the other way (i.e. if LK is lynched, is my alignment determined by his flip?) and, if so, why he chose me over LK.

[zMuffinMan]

Well considering LK hasn't posted

at all

between when spad put his vote on me and now, that's not a valid explanation.

[zMuffinMan]

The plan should go ahead not because I'm scum, but because LK is such an idiot that he can't possibly be scum and neither him or pops are masons.

Also I'm happy just to get out of this game so I don't have to read LK's inane quadposts.

VOTE: muffin

God I hope town loses this one

[zMuffinMan]

Oh, and FTR, if spad and arch aren't the masons, one of them is definitely scum. They are just playing so terribad it's not even funny.

[zMuffinMan]

Do it

[zMuffinMan]

@Arch,

I don't care, really. You are playing horribly if you're town, spad is a huge VI if he's town, and LK is LK and I just want to get out of this game.

I encourage anyone to hammer me and put me out of my misery, because I'm not going to play to win anymore. My vote is staying on me.

[zMuffinMan]

I think the main problem is you haven't made a single case against someone that's actually scum.

[zMuffinMan]

You're an idiot. Clearly the reason I didn't want chk hammered is so I could develop proper reads based on the Snarky flip.

Take it as a scum claim if you want. I may as well be scum, I have a genuine desire for town to lose this game.

[zMuffinMan]

Not going to bother checking this thread. Just hammer me and get it over with.

[zMuffinMan]

How the... How am I not dead yet?

Lynch me already. I clearly said I'm not removing my vote from myself. How much more anti-town can I get before you feel the need to get rid of me? Get off chk and back on me, spad.

@Hiphop:

Does day end if you modkill me?

no, and why would I modkill you?

[zMuffinMan]

damn, town won? that sucks.

[zMuffinMan]

See... #1307, #1309, #1310.... And people wonder why I'd keep him around even if I thought he was scum. You can't fake that. That's genuine DK.

[zMuffinMan]

I would.

His posts are amazing.

Some people watch movies for entertainment. Others play games. Others read books. I ISO DK.