New York 131: Tricycle Mafia (Day 5)

[SubzeroSith]

I really don't get why people are giving mastin so much credibility. He seemed so intensely sure that I am scum, and so overly confident in his D1 VCA (that didn't even actually look at the votes themselves, how strong they were, just which order they were and time timing) and somehow people are still having faith in him.

His d1 claim was horrible. Because of him, instead of 1 claim, we now have 5. Granted he didn't know that it would end up as so many, but it would have still become 3. Lynching an anti-town player day 1 is completely FINE. You do NOT need to lynch scum on day 1 in order to win as town, and in fact the % chance of town winning after lynching town on day 1 isn't much different than the % chance of town winning after lynching scum on day 1.

The chance of town winning now that 4 power roles are outed on day 1 is, well, I'm not really putting much worry in to this game anymore.

Considering how close we were to the deadline when you did this claim, mastin, you screwed town really hard. If we had sufficient time to change gears and hit another player, it STILL would have been a bad move to out yourself just for 1 player like this.

Furthermore, it would have been a

much

better move to investigate me instead. Should we have investigated scum, you could have easily said "I investigated them, and they are scum" and we would have been lynched. We would have shown town, at which point you say "alright, I don't see town going force with a SZS lynch today, so I'll vote someone else." OR you could have just let it slide, said nothing, and let Mod's rule 7 take care of it and let silver be lynched even with your vote on confirmed town.

This has been a frustrating game indeed.

[Pine]

See, that post makes me think that the presumably-impossible might actually be true; that scum claimed Mason, and dragged their buddies along with them. Buddies have no choice but to go along, but aren't really afraid because who's going to lynch the claimed Masons?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not actually advocating we lynch one and see. That would be a catastrophic waste of Town resources against the minute chance that SZS was that stupid. It's just that that post struck me as so ridiculously scummy that it's making me contemplate the unlikely.

[silverbullet999]

I still think nham is the way to go.

-Sub
Instead of crying about the past events sub please ya know.. be helpful. Just about your whole post is fluff or something you should save for end game discussion.
Which head in the hydra posted that btw?

[SubzeroSith]

Instead of crying about the past events sub please ya know.. be helpful.

Something about pots, kettles, and the color black is coming to mind.

FTR, I'm not sure why casting doubt on Mastin's credibility is something that should be saved for postgame. If he is town, his play so far has been really quite poor. His two strongest scumreads have turned out to be town, VCAs are, at best, an art when there haven't been any flips, and because of his last minute daycop claim, we now have four outed PRs on D1, whereas before his claim, we had zero. The town SHOULD be wondering right now whether it is in their best interests to be so quick to follow his lead.

And, why does it matter which head posted the previous post? Just wondering.

@Pine: Why was that post so scummy to you? Because of all the players in the game, you've drunk the most of Mastin's Kool-Aid?

[Pine]

Well, for starters, you set out to character-assassinate and discredit the claimed daycop, criticize him for saving us from a mislynch, express concern only with yourself, continue to push against two nigh-confirmed Townies, and the whole post just reeks to high heaven.

I haven't drunk any kool-aid. Mastin and I disagree on so much across so many games, this is actually the first where I think we're both Town and we agree on most things. Why does it bother you so much to have people outside your clique agreeing with each other?

[Pine]

Mastin, an investigation of the claimed Masons wouldn't be wasted, I think. Normally I'd say investigating Masons would be, but you're likely to die soonish, and confirming three Townies in one go would be a great way to go out.

[silverbullet999]

-Sub

Something about pots, kettles, and the color black is coming to mind.

You really make me want to bash my head in. When have I actually cried about the past and such? Wait you know what, no ignore this, your town, i'm town, there's literally no point (unless you now want to argue i'm godfather I guess?) but omg.

You saying Mastin made a bad move doing this and that doesn't discredit mastin a bit. You saying mastin should have done this or that again doesn't discredit mastin one bit. I said just about your whole post is fluff and I meant it. The only thing that was credible and that can discredit mastin is your first paragraph about his VCA.

Because I think i'm able to tell which is posting which and would like to know the actual names of whos who when posting.

[SubzeroSith]

Well, for starters, you set out to

1

character-assassinate and discredit the claimed daycop,

2

criticize him for saving us from a mislynch,

3

express concern only with yourself,

4

continue to push against two nigh-confirmed Townies, and the whole post just reeks to high heaven.

I haven't drunk any kool-aid. Mastin and I disagree on so much across so many games, this is actually the first where I think we're both Town and we agree on most things.

5

Why does it bother you so much to have people outside your clique agreeing with each other?

1: Please point out where we have slandered, libeled, denigrated, or otherwise put down Mastin as a person. We've never called him names, never been uncivil, and criticizing his play is fair game. Just because someone is a PR doesn't mean you should blindly follow their lead.

2: We don't know yet that Mastin saved us from a mislynch. If we still mess up and lynch town today, we're in a WAY worse situation than before Mastin's claim.

3: Whut? We've been selfish...how? By fighting tooth and nail against the town lynching a PR?

4: Which two? And don't say Mastin. He's not confirmed town, not by a long shot.

5: Because if Mastin is who he says he is, I think you're probscum buddying up to a town PR so that he doesn't investigate you.

PEdit: Yes, Silver, I'm town, you're town. I'm not arguing you're a godfather. I'm not interested in discrediting you personally, but I don't think your's and Pine's defenses of Mastin are holding water. The latter is not the same as the former. And in case you care, this is DY.

[silverbullet999]

-Sub
Your missing the point, I'm not defending mastin. All I'm saying is talking about "well Mastin should have investigated you instead" or "Mastin shouldn't have investigated me" or "Mastin should have ignored his result and let the mislynch happen" is pointless and should be saved for end game if you want to argue about what he should or should not have done. As I said your only valid point was your first paragraph about his VCA.

[SubzeroSith]

Silver, we'll probably have to agree to disagree, then. For whatever it is worth, a number of players have pointed out this is an un-Mastin use of his cop PR. I do think that examining Mastin's strategic decisions is important at the moment--it may or may not determine alignment, but reorienting the town may be something to consider, that's all. Not saying Mastin is a bad person or a bad player (my first game here was with him as an IC and it was an extremely enjoyable game, and he actually DID correctly call the scumteam on D1 then), but, at least sitting from my vantage point, it is difficult to see how Mastin's play has helped the town particularly if we still end up lynching a townie. That's all.

-Darth

[Pine]

1: Please point out where we have slandered, libeled, denigrated, or otherwise put down Mastin as a person. We've never called him names, never been uncivil, and criticizing his play is fair game. Just because someone is a PR doesn't mean you should blindly follow their lead.

Your whole post is an attack on Mastin. You are very careful not to insult or personally attack him, but everything you said (and much of what you have said since) are attempts to dismiss or discredit him, his reads, and the results of his investigation.

Why

are you doing this?

2: We don't know yet that Mastin saved us from a mislynch. If we still mess up and lynch town today, we're in a WAY worse situation than before Mastin's claim.

Are you

high

? Cop. Cop has innocent. Confirmed mislynch <

possible

mislynch

3: Whut? We've been selfish...how? By fighting tooth and nail against the town lynching a PR?

Here's the quote:

Furthermore, it would have been a

much

better move to investigate me instead. Should we have investigated scum, you could have easily said "I investigated them, and they are scum" and we would have been lynched. We would have shown town, at which point you say "alright, I don't see town going force with a SZS lynch today, so I'll vote someone else."

So...Mastin should have spent his daycop power on someone who wasn't the leading lynch? Instead, he used it on someone who he had a gut feeling was about to be mislynched, confirmed them, and saved us from mislynching?

4: Which two? And don't say Mastin. He's not confirmed town, not by a long shot.

I was talking about you and your Masonbuddies. The fact that you subconsciously, absent-mindedly don't include you and your buddies in the confirmed Townie category is

extremely

suspicious.

5: Because if Mastin is who he says he is, I think you're probscum buddying up to a town PR so that he doesn't investigate you.

This is a good point, despite the fact that it is predicated on something that isn't true. The reality is that I'm agreeing with Mastin, someone I've played with many times and have a good feel on, on one or two issues.

[Pine]

^

@Mod: Can you fix the quote tag?

<3

[SubzeroSith]

Your whole post is an attack on Mastin.

You are very careful not to insult or personally attack him

, but everything you said (and much of what you have said since) are attempts to dismiss or discredit him, his reads, and the results of his investigation. Why are you doing this?

Emphasis mine. I don't think it's because we're careful, it's that ICE and I are generally decent human beings and don't tend to personall insult someone (just their spelling, har har har). In any case, IT ISN'T CHARACTER ASSASSINATION. Stop using such emotionally-laden language to mislabel something. Character assassination is defamation of character. We did no such thing.

Additionally, we didn't try to discredit the results of the investigation--did you miss the immediate post above where we say Silver is town?

Finally, why are we doing this? Again--either Mastin is scum, or Mastin is town. If it is the former, well, y'all will probably lynch him before LyLo anyways. But if it is the latter, his play has not, imo, been good for the town, but y'all are following him anyways. So, we are trying to get town to rethink that. That's it.

Are you high? Cop. Cop has innocent. Confirmed mislynch < possible mislynch

If this was the case, cops would always claim on D2 whenever an innocent result they had got voted. C'mon.

Do you not get how the chances of town mislynching were still quite high after Mastin's claim? It was FOR SURE going to happen (on us) if we didn't claim.

So...Mastin should have spent his daycop power on someone who wasn't the leading lynch? Instead, he used it on someone who he had a gut feeling was about to be mislynched, confirmed them, and saved us from mislynching?

YES. You yourself noted that it went against Mastin's game theory in your ISO #33. Investigating the scummiest-looking player is usually a wasted investigation. Why are you changing your tune now?

I was talking about you and your Masonbuddies. The fact that you subconsciously, absent-mindedly don't include you and your buddies in the confirmed Townie category is extremely suspicious.

First, why are you scumhunting on confirmed town? This plus your #501 of trying to still subtly throw suspicion on us is bad. Unlike what we are saying about Mastin--which is, basically, hey, let's reconsider the influence we're giving this guy--you're still saying, "Hey, SZS is still might be scum."

Second, your original question was worded as us "pushing against two nigh-confirmed townies." How does that at all describe our mason buddies? Jmurph is on the Toon wagon with us. We've been working in concert with Thor on Amor; yes, our vote is on Toon, but Amor is the leading wagon atm, so it's not like switching now makes a functional difference.

[Thor665]

EVERYBODY IN THE PINE/SZ/SILVER CLUSTER PARTY - PLEASE ZIP IT!

Two of you are confirmed town or near confirmed town, there are BETTER things to be doing.
One of you is Pine, who has better things to be doing - like digging up so quotes so I can stop feeling skeevy about him. Tick-tock, tick-tock, pal.

@SZ - Is Mastin a shinign wall of super brilliant play? Naaaah. But is he scum? I seriously doubt it. So unless you seriously think we should be lynching Mastin today how about we just settle for noting that if he makes it to the day before lylo he should probably be lynched, and leave it at that. Please? Thank you.

@Pine - Please take your whole "lol, masons are the scum team" theory, wrap it up, and sit on it. If all three of us are alive tomorrow then I'll be willing to hear it. Until than you're blowing hot air and doing exactly the thing you're digging into SZ about. You're attacking confirmed towns, who are *more* confirmed than Mastin or Silver so...yeah. Vote one of us or go do something useful.

@Silver - yes, great, you're defending Mastin. First off, this doesn't need to be a giant debate, and second off SZ is obviously more confirmed than Mastin so any disagreement between you about him should be kept short, sweet, and not wall posting. If he keeps banging his head against a wall after this - let it go. It's not helping anything. On a more fruitful line - have you weighed in on Toon or Amor yet? I recall you voting for Toon I think, but would like to hear some thoughts. Also, do you have any opinions about likely scum both on and off your and SZ's wagons. Let's be frank, everyone touting the either/or gibberish really is looking like scum setting up some mislynches with two town as the competition - that's an awesome Day 1 wagon and counter wagon for scum. So what are your thoughts there?

@Everyone

- who has a town read on Toon Fighter and why? I'm starting to think I'd prefer him dead over Amor.

[DeityKabuto]

I really don't get why people are giving mastin so much credibility. He seemed so intensely sure that I am scum, and so overly confident in his D1 VCA (that didn't even actually look at the votes themselves, how strong they were, just which order they were and time timing) and somehow people are still having faith in him.

His d1 claim was horrible. Because of him, instead of 1 claim, we now have 5. Granted he didn't know that it would end up as so many, but it would have still become 3. Lynching an anti-town player day 1 is completely FINE. You do NOT need to lynch scum on day 1 in order to win as town, and in fact the % chance of town winning after lynching town on day 1 isn't much different than the % chance of town winning after lynching scum on day 1.

The chance of town winning now that 4 power roles are outed on day 1 is, well, I'm not really putting much worry in to this game anymore.

Considering how close we were to the deadline when you did this claim, mastin, you screwed town really hard. If we had sufficient time to change gears and hit another player, it STILL would have been a bad move to out yourself just for 1 player like this.

Furthermore, it would have been a

much

better move to investigate me instead. Should we have investigated scum, you could have easily said "I investigated them, and they are scum" and we would have been lynched. We would have shown town, at which point you say "alright, I don't see town going force with a SZS lynch today, so I'll vote someone else." OR you could have just let it slide, said nothing, and let Mod's rule 7 take care of it and let silver be lynched even with your vote on confirmed town.

This has been a frustrating game indeed.

I agree. Mastin's claim has his ups and downs. The scum will most likely have him dead Day 1 knowing he's cop.

[SubzeroSith]

@Thor:

@SZ - Is Mastin a shinign wall of super brilliant play? Naaaah. But is he scum? I seriously doubt it. So unless you seriously think we should be lynching Mastin today how about we just settle for noting that if he makes it to the day before lylo he should probably be lynched, and leave it at that. Please? Thank you.

To clarify, this is basically what we've been saying all along. We aren't saying, and haven't said, that Mastin needs to be lynched today.

Lips are now zipped.

[Thor665]

@DK - your thoughts on Toon and Amor as lynch prospects?

@SK - <3

[MrZepher]

I agree. Mastin's claim has his ups and downs. The scum will most likely have him dead Day 1 knowing he's cop.

Thanks for summing up the last couple of pages nicely. //sarcasm

@Thor
If I recall, Mastin had a town read on Toon.

[Thor665]

@Zephyr - that's awesome and exciting. What are your opinions?

[Maxous]

Don't have a lot of time..just skimmed.

Mason claim eliminates my growing Thor suspicion

I don't completely buy Mastin to be honest.. his actions seem too weird.. along with his insistence of not lynching Toon Fighter.
Maybe it's just a disagreement of how he used the power.. I'll have to look over him during the night period (he's obv not going to be the lynch today)
I will say regardless of Mastin's alignment, Silver should be town. It would too high of a risk for a mafia to claim an innocent on his buddy Day 1, since there is a plausibility of having a third party of something. (There may or may not be one but pratically scum are not going to take that risk)

No time to drag up the quotes but Toon fighter was earlier saying we should lynch Subzero or Silver - I don't like thier posts etc.
Looks very opportunistic seeing as how they are both probably town.
And then he said if Mastin and Silver don't die on N1 they are scum so lynch them (From what I remember).
I don't see town motovation in saying that at all. Along with my earlier suspicions..I'm confident here.

@Pine: The three of them are not gambiting scum claiming masons. There is not a chance they'll all live to LYLO in this game, you'll get a flip sooner or later.

[MrZepher]

@Thor
I'm fine with a Toon lynch. I don't even think there's need for a justification for his wagon at this point; he's been playing scummy enough it seems.
I get the feeling that he may be just really bad at playing town, but that could just be his fool hardy attempts to hide the fact that's he is, in fact, not town.

What are your reads thus far actually?
You might have posted them somewhere recently already but I'm kind of curious where everyone stands with you.

[DeityKabuto]

@DK - your thoughts on Toon and Amor as lynch prospects?

@SK - <3

ToonFighter, he could either be a scum, and knows how to deceive people very well, or just an innocent townie. If Mastin's claim about silver being Townie is correct, that would boost the chance of Toon being scum, lol. As for Sith, he could either be a townie who was attacking another Townie, or a scum attacking an innocent townie, as how I said silver may be innocent.

And for Amor, Amor posts logically, and he seems like a Pro-town sort of guy, I haven't really encountered much with him.

[Pine]

@Maxous: I didn't say the three of them were gambiting together. I said that I had a tinfoil hat suspicion that SZS made an incredibly stupid claim, and his buddies had to back it.

And in that case, it's entirely likely that they'd all survive. Vig probably won't want to kill them, they won't kill themselves, Town won't lynch them, all they have to fear is SKs, being cc-ed by real Masons (would have happened by now) and tinfoil hat theories.

The odds of this being true are pretty remote though, which is why I haven't pushed it in the slightest.

[Nobody Special]

KoC: Why do you think there might be more than one cop? And can you give some reasoning for your latest vote?

Thor: OMG this game. You're posting a lot, which is good, and you're saying stuff, which is good. I can't really say that you're posting a lot and not saying anything, because clearly you are. But I have this feeling in the pit of my stomach.

[Pine]

^Rolefishing

FoS: NS