Open 302: JUNGLE REPUB nope game over! Party time!

[HezLucky]

Post coming within 24 hours. Have got a plane to catch today.

[DeityKabuto]

I laugh at how their are several scum trying to push suspicious on me, *Niel. You still haven't responded to my latest post, and you find me scummy.

[Umbrage]

Vote Count:

HezLucky (2) - zMuffinMan, Regfan
Sloth (2) - LynchMePls, cjdrum
DeityKabuto (1) - neil1113
MagnaofIllusion (1) - HezLucky
neil1113 (1) - DeityKabuto
cjdrum (1) - MagnaofIllusion

Not Voting: Sloth, Wickedestjr.

[HezLucky]

I be back home finally. Long few days. Let's get to where I left off last post:

Suspect List:
#1 - DeityKabuto (72/100) - huge VI.
#2 - Magna (69/100) - not a VI. Thus, way more comfortable with my vote.
#3 - Muffin (58/100) - still superscummy. Oh look, he's going to attack me. Note that I found him scummy long before his
"Wicked/Hez are scum" bit that he's trying to pull.
#4 - Sloth (56/100) - lurky mclurk
#5 - Neil - 51/100
#5 - Drum - 51/100 - trouble getting a read
#7 - Wicked (50/100) - apparently people think we're scum together. LOL. Sometimes a neutral read IS a neutral read. Sometimes
a lack of comments are a lack of comments. People seem to be basing any case on me on whether or not
I comment on someone. If I had a meta, I wouldn't be in this situation -_-
#8 - all others - 50/100 - whoever that is has been very quiet
#9 - LMP (formerly Caboose) - 45/100 - LMP is 55 caboose is 40 we add in mafia

That was LAST post. Let's see how it changes with everything new.

- Does anybody else notice how DeityKabuto's opinion of me is DIRECTLY 100% CORRELATED to whether or not I've had a positive
or negative tone towards him in my walls? Take from that what you may, he was my highest point total before but he's very
VI so I'm still super-hesitant.

- cjdrum #430 - I think you got the mafia and werewolves mixed up. Blind sheep are 3 in number (and, of course, Magna and
Muffin are among those three) while the super powerful werewolves number only 2.

- LynchMePls #431 - hey dude. nice comeback. way to not respond to a single one of my posts, but rather just blatantly
strawman me and dismiss my arguments. I made actual POINTS, you know. How about you, like, look at them? Or is it because
your scum that doesn't want to bring attention to the fact that you are, you know, WRONG?

- have been asked for my townread of Caboose. Seeing as Caboose was 40 and his replacement LMP is already up to 58 as of
this line, I feel it is definitely worthwhile to ISO and rehash my points:

Why Caboose is/was town
- ISO 3 - calling Magna out on his garbage. Proving he actually read and understood the Empking argument, rather than
haphazardly throwing a vote on him. (that was worth -5)
- Choice of targets, esp in post 6. Muffin/twistedspoon were excellent targets at the time, despite neither really having
a significant amount of pressure then. Further, he didn't like the Empking wagon and unvoted DK. I like the DK unvote because
of my own personal hesitation that DK might be town VI, rather than obvscum. DK and Empking are both very easy lynches, and
he just didn't go for either of them. (that's the other -5)

so upon reread, I am still very happy with my 40/100 on Caboose. LMP on the toher hand in two posts has managed to get that
slot back up to almost neutral. Amazing. (48/100 as of this line)

-

e.g. His case on neil at the moment revolves around him thinking that HezLucky is scum and neil is his partner... But he wouldn't be happy with a HezLucky lynch, just a neil lynch, and he's made no real mention of why he thinks HezLucky is scummy, he's just said he thinks it.

This Muffin post on Wicked is complete crap. It's one thing that he decides to go around inventing reasons on me. At least those reasons make sense. But he is spouting so much
nonsense against Wicked that it's irritating.

- Wicked #436 - I would thinkt he part where he writes "FOS: cjdrum" merits a vote, given that "his reaction is inconsistent with previous play" is usually a pretty solid scumtell.

- however, I like Wicked #437 - those Town/Scum reads (I don't agree with every single one, but...) seem very realistic - for example, unlike me, he didn't have Caboose as town so LMP - scum makes
complete sense. He has DK as town, cjdrum as scum (from the last FOS I could see this), I disagree with Magna as town and neil as scum but the other two (Sloth/MuffinMan) suspicions seem very legitimate as well.

- DK #439 - but this is how you read VI's. You don't listen to their reasons. You don't listen to the scummy crap that comes out of their mouth regardless of alignment. Instead, you look at their votes.
You'd rather lynch Neil instead of MuffinMan? I strongly disagree. Neil, as of this line, is town.

- Neil #440 - tho I am very tempted to give him points for this post (hell he's doing the same crap LMP is against me), I feel that would be due to emotional bias. So I cannot!

- Muffin #441 - oh hay. A post I need to respond to. Let's read it. Let's summarize Muffin's case against me.

First major post is ISO#3, which is virtually fluff. MoI makes him uncomfortable for unknown reasons, TS uses WIFOM but this doesn't mean anything whatsoever apparently, Empking's thoughts are different to HezLucky's so Empking is suspicious... This would be his third vote of the game (Empking).

Hey look. This is MUFFINMAN, the guy who said he META'D ME. He is voting me partially because "Empking's thoughts are different from Hez's thus Empking is suspicious" aka. the "thinks like Hez" theory that I have CONSISTENTLY BEEN USING IN ALL MY GAMES THAT HE HAS CLAIMED TO META ME IN.

Yet he is voting me for this. Without even reading the rest of the post, I am comfortable to

Unvote, Vote: MuffinMan

But this ain't strawman. I've been suspicious of him all day. Let's continue.

Prior to this, he vote Wicked as a RVS vote ("DIE SCUM DIE") and then voted DK for saying something dumb. He rides the Empking wagon all the way up until Empking's claim and then unvotes and votes DK instead, followed by MoI (2 votes that were essentially useless because he did nothing with them and neither of those players really had any support for a lynch, so these two votes were complete fluff votes).

This is information followed by "oh look he did a fluff vote". That's not analysis dude. Sorry. In many games that you CLAIM TO HAVE META'D, I have stuck my vote on someone who has been previously voteless in order to draw attention to them. THIS IS NUMBER TWO. THE SECOND TIME MUFFIN IS VOTING ME FOR SOMETHING CONSISTENT WITH MY META, WHICH HE CLAIMS TO HAVE A HANDLE ON.

- at this point I am so frustrated at Empking I would be happy to policy lynch him regardless of alignment.
- can we vig him? his being alive is detrimental to the town.

Making a note of the above quote because his later posts suggest he thinks people pushing for an Empking lynch are scummy... Also this quote:

Dude. This is not a case. You know why? Anyone who had to read ten billion pages of Empking's crap all at once (as I unfortunately had to do) would be extremely frustrated with Empking PERIOD. Seriously, I would've vig'd him so fast if I had those powers.

Unfortunately, Empking claimed Seer. Those voting for Empking while EMPKING CLAIMED SEER are SUPER DUPER SUPER SCUMMY. This is obvious and not inconsistent in any way.

Rest of Muffin's post:

You aren't reading my crap. You are (frig I don't know the word for this) oversimplifying my arguments, trying to justify your case using nothing but terminology (oh look I'll throw out teh term "white knight" just becaues Hez happened TO BE RIGHT! Nevermind that Hez clearly thought Empking
was scummy as hell even AFTER the claim). Oh look, you are using WIFOM. How'st hat for terminology to justify scumminess?

Oh cool, you get to comment on my ISO. This is going to be boring as hell for me seeing as I just reread it.

- don't forget Neil. He was voting for me yesterday.
- "Aha I told you so"? How about "aha, this is common sense. I must have common sense. Yes I win at life?"
- "thinks like Hez" re: Muffin and MoI, who are my top two targets right now. Though I'm sure you knew that my meta actually disproves your argument and not the other way around -_-. You desperately want to be right. But you aren't. I'm not in the other scumgroup, buddy. I'm straight up town.
- why don't you comment on my lack of analysis of regfan while you are at it? We MUST be linked.

Not even gonna read your crap against Wicked. I'm voting for you and got more than enough ammo.


But I will do the meta post. That was SO MUCH FUN.

I just checked Hez's meta. There aren't many games, but his playstyle is different in the games he's flipped town. There's none of the complaining that he's doing in this game, and when I was reading through his posts in games he was town I didn't get the same feeling that his posts were forced and insincere like I'm getting in this game. His votes in other games actually make sense, and he pushes his stances rather than just putting votes out and coasting along like in this game. Also, just a side note, he hasn't done a RVS vote like in this game in any of the games he's town, so this just reinforces my opinion that there was some meaning behind it, although it could just be pure coincidence.

- Complaining is scum? There is none of the "Empking is in this game posting 500 times a day" in any of my other games is there?
- Feeling is a funny thing. As you say, you can use it to justify anything. My votes make sense? That's not because, um, you weren't in those games were you? Because now that you are in this game, my vote must not make sense since I find you and your buddy MoI scummy.
- coasting eh? Okay, I admit it. Relative to those two games you meta'd where my interest was at a high because I had just come back to the site, I have lost a significant amount of interest in mafia. However, I am playing it out the honourable way. (go check my other ongoing game and see how often I post there)
- "he hasn't done a RVS vote like this in any game where he's popped town" - sample size: 2. Why is this significant? Oh. It isn't. I can put a half-assed RVS vote anytime I want.

All in all. Your points are extremely weak. However, as mentioned above, if you actually considered my meta properly rather than trying to find facts to fit your accusations, you'd notice my meta actually DISPROVES like half your points.

Okay next post to read is Magna #444. I'm tired. I'll take it from there. But I know people are looking forward to this post so bam here it is.


Suspect List:
#1 - DeityKabuto (74/100)
#2 - Magna (69/100)
#3 - Muffin (60/100)
#4 - Sloth (56/100)
#5 - Drum - 52/100
#6 - Neil - 51/100
#7 - all others - 50/100
#8 - Wicked 49/100
#9 - LMP (formerly Caboose) - 48/100


Magna and Muffin are both superscum. But Muffin is the far easier target today (he's actively posting crap as opposed to sly-ly ignoring me), as I plan on completely ripping his ass apart. Let's goooooooo.

[zMuffinMan]

the "thinks like Hez" theory that I have CONSISTENTLY BEEN USING IN ALL MY GAMES THAT HE HAS CLAIMED TO META ME IN.

That's not what you've done in any of your other games. I can point to clear examples of you saying you disagree with someone's reads but think they're town (e.g. your read on Exe in 1151), and I can point to clear examples where you think someone's scum without even taking into account their reads.

It's also just terrible logic, full stop.

In many games that you CLAIM TO HAVE META'D, I have stuck my vote on someone who has been previously voteless in order to draw attention to them.

The difference being you were pushing your votes in the other games. And since you clearly admit this later on, and attribute it to a "lack of interest", I don't even need to refute this.

Dude. This is not a case. You know why? Anyone who had to read ten billion pages of Empking's crap all at once (as I unfortunately had to do) would be extremely frustrated with Empking PERIOD. Seriously, I would've vig'd him so fast if I had those powers.

It was never meant to be a case, it was a note because you'd be happy to see him die, regardless of his flip.

Those voting for Empking while EMPKING CLAIMED SEER are SUPER DUPER SUPER SCUMMY.

Yeah, no, apart from there being obvious reasons to keep your vote on Empking even after a seer claim, this was your post

- You guys are silly. You UNVOTE EMPKING because he has claimed the ONLY POWER ROLE IN THE GAME. You don't KEEP YOUR VOTE ON HIM. The consequences
of being wrong, on <<DAY ONE>> !!!!!!, are great. You severely hurt the town.

How anyone could possibly see this as sincere, I have no idea. You're scum trying to white knight. There's no other explanation for this.

- why don't you comment on my lack of analysis of regfan while you are at it? We MUST be linked.

Links aren't as obvious, but noted you consciously have not been analysing regfan's play.

[HezLucky]

the "thinks like Hez" theory that I have CONSISTENTLY BEEN USING IN ALL MY GAMES THAT HE HAS CLAIMED TO META ME IN.

That's not what you've done in any of your other games. I can point to clear examples of you saying you disagree with someone's reads but think they're town (e.g. your read on Exe in 1151), and I can point to clear examples where you think someone's scum without even taking into account their reads.

It's also just terrible logic, full stop.

Once again, you are using faulty logic and do not understand the power of the "Thinks Like Hez" theory. The theory (which has been very effective, mind you, in the games I have tested it on) states that those with similar scumreads to myself are viewing the game from the same perspective as myself, and are therefore more likely to be town, and vice versa. It does NOT state that I solely use people's reads to obtain my own. On the contrary, I only use "thinks like Hez" in extreme situations. You are trying to misapply the theory in order to discredit me. Noted scum.

In many games that you CLAIM TO HAVE META'D, I have stuck my vote on someone who has been previously voteless in order to draw attention to them.

The difference being you were pushing your votes in the other games. And since you clearly admit this later on, and attribute it to a "lack of interest", I don't even need to refute this.

Once again, you are --lying-- (using very poor logic on purpose -- this reasoning is circular). There is NO difference. You are accusing me for "fluff votes", which are more than consistent with my meta, and then when I refute it you admit that you were wrong and pour on this garbage. Given that my so-called "fluff votes" were a) on DK, who has received plenty of suspicion throughout the game [[oh look, my so called fluff vote called attention to someone]] and (b) MoI, who I CONTINUED TO PUSH AT THE START OF TODAY, your argument holds very little water.

Dude. This is not a case. You know why? Anyone who had to read ten billion pages of Empking's crap all at once (as I unfortunately had to do) would be extremely frustrated with Empking PERIOD. Seriously, I would've vig'd him so fast if I had those powers.

It was never meant to be a case, it was a note because you'd be happy to see him die, regardless of his flip.

then why did you post it? (there's fluff for you)

Those voting for Empking while EMPKING CLAIMED SEER are SUPER DUPER SUPER SCUMMY.

Yeah, no, apart from there being obvious reasons to keep your vote on Empking even after a seer claim, this was your post

- You guys are silly. You UNVOTE EMPKING because he has claimed the ONLY POWER ROLE IN THE GAME. You don't KEEP YOUR VOTE ON HIM. The consequences
of being wrong, on <<DAY ONE>> !!!!!!, are great. You severely hurt the town.

How anyone could possibly see this as sincere, I have no idea. You're scum trying to white knight. There's no other explanation for this.

We'll see if you feel this way at the end of the game. This is common sense. I am Hez trying to give common sense. (and this would be very consistent with my meta if I had a large enough "n" as well). I don't know if mafiascummers in 2011 are idiots, but back in 2005 we did NOT LYNCH THE COP AFTER A DAY ONE CLAIM. It's moronic. You're arguing with me over a completely crap point. You're obviously able to string several sentences together to make a coherent argument against me. Your inability to understand this is what makes you obvious scum. "There's no other explanation for this."

- why don't you comment on my lack of analysis of regfan while you are at it? We MUST be linked.

Links aren't as obvious, but noted you consciously have not been analysing regfan's play.

Lynch Muffin now. He has constantly tried to misinterpret every single thing I have said in an attempt to get me lynched. His arguments hold absolutely no water, and when I refute them and he even admits that certain parts of my refutation are completely correct, he spews even more crap in an attempt to cover up his mistakes.

[zMuffinMan]

You are trying to misapply the theory in order to discredit me. Noted scum.

No, I'm not.

Do explain how you consistently use it, but get town reads on people who don't share your reads.

Also, it holds no water as a theory because... it's a terrible theory... like, I can't even tell if you're trolling and you actually think it makes sense.

Once again, you are --lying-- (using very poor logic on purpose -- this reasoning is circular). There is NO difference. You are accusing me for "fluff votes", which are more than consistent with my meta, and then when I refute it you admit that you were wrong and pour on this garbage. Given that my so-called "fluff votes" were a) on DK, who has received plenty of suspicion throughout the game [[oh look, my so called fluff vote called attention to someone]] and (b) MoI, who I CONTINUED TO PUSH AT THE START OF TODAY, your argument holds very little water.

Voting for someone isn't pushing for their lynch. You've made no case on anyone (just pbpa and calling them scum). Your case on DK was he's VI but it's possible he's scum. I don't even know what your case on MoI is (I'm assuming it's that he argued with Empking?). Your case on me is OMGUS.

All you've done is pbpa, followed by putting your vote down and leaving it there.

We'll see if you feel this way at the end of the game. This is common sense. I am Hez trying to give common sense. (and this would be very consistent with my meta if I had a large enough "n" as well). I don't know if mafiascummers in 2011 are idiots, but back in 2005 we did NOT LYNCH THE COP AFTER A DAY ONE CLAIM. It's moronic. You're arguing with me over a completely crap point. You're obviously able to string several sentences together to make a coherent argument against me. Your inability to understand this is what makes you obvious scum. "There's no other explanation for this."

The seer was outed in a game with no protective roles. The point is you made a huge deal out of lynching him being tragic.

The consequences of being wrong, on <<DAY ONE>> !!!!!!, are great. You severely hurt the town.

The seer was outed. He was useless. Regardless of what happened D1, town was already severely hurt.

That's terrible acting. And it was followed by a terrible FoS - as though scum are more likely to continue trying to get a claimed seer lynched. This was unbelievably scummy.

Lynch Muffin now. He has constantly tried to misinterpret every single thing I have said in an attempt to get me lynched. His arguments hold absolutely no water, and when I refute them and he even admits that certain parts of my refutation are completely correct, he spews even more crap in an attempt to cover up his mistakes.

Yeah, no.

[LimMePls]

All you've done is pbpa, followed by putting your vote down and leaving it there.

/agree.

[Regfan]

Ugh. It's 1am and I haven't gotten around to this game yet. I'll do it in the morning.

Umbrage, Sloth hasn't posted in more than 5 days, have you sent him a prod?

[LimMePls]

Since he's scum we should just lynch him and save the mod the trouble.

[Wickedestjr]

Alright... I think this will be a big post. I would like zMuffinMan to read/respond to everything, but for the other players that don't want to read this whole post: please read inside the area box - I don't care if you read the spoiler or not.

zMuffinMan's post 441. Reasons why I don't like it:
1.) It contains

a lot

of IIoA.
2.) It contains several examples of obvious misrep. Here's an example:

- at this point I am so frustrated at Empking I would be happy to policy lynch him regardless of alignment.
- can we vig him? his being alive is detrimental to the town.

Making a note of the above quote because his later posts suggest he thinks people pushing for an Empking lynch are scummy...

He suggests an inconsistency here, but he is pretty obviously taking HezLucky's posts out of context here. Very scummy: I can't see TownzMuffinMan making this mistake. I think the misrep looked deliberate.

3.) Earlier he gave me a hard time for saying that Empking and neil1113 were unlikely to attract attention to themselves early on as scum. From memory, he said that it was weak reasoning. However, in his post 441, he feels the need to mention that Hez's rvs vote for me is a possible link between us. Way to both have your cake and eat it.

Now to respond to the content directed at me...

ISO#9 is his first association with Hez - apparently TS is suspicious for voting Hez

You need to learn how to scumhunt, if you are town, because this point is TERRIBLE. I NEVER said that TS was suspicious for voting Hez. I said he was suspicious for voting somebody with no votes when he had previously expressed interest in a bandwagon. Acting like that was my reason is a huge misrep. Also, this is extremely inconsistent.

You

suspected Twistedspoon as well. If there was good reasons to be voting him, then why does

my

vote look like a chainsaw defense? You didn't have any problem with my reasons for voting TS yesterday (that I can remember), so trying to make it scummy now is only making yourself look bad.

Spoiler: zMuffinMan

ISO#26 making a big deal out of MoI suggesting Empking should be lynched D2.
ISO#30 his explanation of neil's posts is interesting.

IIoA. What's your point in mentioning this? Because I have no idea. Do you have a problem with me saying these things? If you do, please explain, because I thought my ISO#26 was perfectly warranted and I don't know what 'interesting' means in this context.

ISO#28 suggesting neil's vote on HezLucky looks "bad" without giving a reason

I

have

explained this opinion. What's your point?

This is generally what how an argument occurs... But how is this relevant?

By 'argued with' I mean 'suspected'.

Reasons 1 and 2 for thinking neil is suspicious look contrived, as though you're trying way too hard to look for scummy behaviour. For example, the part about pressure votes was irrelevant because it wasn't a "pressure vote".

I'm pretty sure he even said that pressure was one of the reasons for his vote.

Also, interesting to note here is that he criticises neil for voting for Hez near the deadline, but surprise, surprise, no mention of Hez's votes near the deadline. Although at this point Hez hadn't voted MoI yet, but the vote on DK was just as useless because there was little interest in a DK lynch and Hez didn't even try to push a DK lynch.

First of all, your wrong: there were many people that found DK suspicious. Secondly, there's a clear difference. Hez wanted DK lynched when he voted him at the end of the day. I didn't get that impression from neil1113.

And this is the quote that really set off alarms for me. Despite thinking Hez is suspicious (although no real mention as to why), he wants to lynch neil but not Hez.

This really looks like a case of Wicked trying to push a case on someone while FoSing his partner.

Actually, there's really not much content in Wicked ISO about Hez at all, except for Wicked apparently thinking Hez is scummy, but no real mention of why that I can find.

Also, I need to read Wicked's posts D2 properly, because I haven't really read through them

I believe I've explained my read on Hez and cleared this confusion.

I can't remember off the top of my head why I said this but I assume it had to do with your posts near the end of D1 and I might have specifically been referring to your actions surrounding Hez. I will have to go back and read again and try to remember what I was talking about here.

Alright, well please let me know when you remember (or admit that there is no inconsistency).

Sorry,

[1: you said you think neil is bussing]

,

[2: and you think (or thought) Hez is scum]

(but now you're apparently null on him), so I just connected the dots here...

[3: Although it is true that your case on neil revolved entirely around his vote on Hez initially, because prior to that you supposedly had a town read on him.]

1:

I said it was a possibility.

2:

Where did I say this? Please quote me saying this.

3:

It wasn't the strongest point I brought up against him imo.

[Wickedestjr]

Since he's scum we should just lynch him and save the mod the trouble.

Not a bad idea. My scumread on cjdrum is about as strong as my scumread on Sloth and I'd be willing to switch my vote to the latter if there is enough support and cjdrum has defended against the points I bring up. (which I'm still working on)

[DeityKabuto]

HezLucky, and the rest of you guys. Why do you think HezLucky is less scum than neil?

Isn't it obvious, they are either both scum, or only one of them?

At first Empking tried to start a case on neil, but neil looked better at the time, Empking avoided lynched, and neil and the rest of the scum agreed to night kill Empking.

Now I have a case on neil, which he hasn't responded to, and I really feel more safe having neil lynched.

[DeityKabuto]

ZMuffinman

HezLucky

[DeityKabuto]

Why do you think ZMuffinman is less scum than neil?

[neil1113]

Now I have a case on neil, which he hasn't responded to, and I really feel more safe having neil lynched.

No you don't, which is why I have not responded to anything you've said.

As for the others who have posted something to me, I should be able to get to your post either late tonight, or sometime tomorrow. Maybe sooner. We'll see how RL goes.

[Wickedestjr]

The main reason I looked in cjdrum's direction originally was because of the inconsistency pointed out earlier. However, I thought about this supposed 'inconsistency' a little bit more and I don't really think it is valid any more. Having said that, I did find some suspiciousness upon giving cjdrum an iso read. Admittedly, there has been a lot of strange behavior from cjdrum and a lot of it I think is a result of inexperience. However, I think that he is guilty of some actions which are suspicious regardless of his experience in playing this game.

First of all, out of all the votes on Empkingtown's bandwagon, I think cjdrum did the worst job of jusitifying his position. In his first serious post of the game he said that Empking vs. neil was probably not town vs. town but never does explain why. Furthermore, in the same post he says that he doesn't see much evidence against either Empking or neil. In addition, in this post he:
1.) Asks neil1113 what he

really

thinks about Empking which implies that he thinks (or possibly knows) that neil is scum. He can't know neil's allignment at this point unless he is scum himself and thinking that neil is scum contradicts his statement that he doesn't see much evidence against him. I'm not sure which is the case here, but either way, the question feels off.
2.) He stresses the fact that he doesn't see much evidence against either Empking or neil1113 and says that he's leaning in Empking's direction mostly because others are voting him.

His second post in the game (13 hours after the previous one) he states that either Empking is scum or neil and MoI are.

Something extremely interesting to note: Empking flipped town, but cjdrum hasn't expressed any suspicion of neil1113 or MoI today. Moreover, he hasn't mentioned either of them or the point that he brought up earlier.

There's something else that is very interesting. He voted Empking and said 'OBV MOST PROBABLE CHOICE IS OBV' which indicates that he is very confident in this read. This is a big jump from his previous post, which came 13 hours earlier, in which he said that there was hardly any evidence against Empking. His future posts also indicate/prove that he is confident in his Empking scumread.

Throughout most of day 1 cjdrum has coasted giving reads on nobody other than Empking, which is suspicious. Finally, he was asked for his two strongest scum reads and two strongest town reads, but avoided giving names in his response. cjdrum, you said you would explain that at the end of day 1, but haven't yet. Why not? Can you please respond now?

I am pretty sure he's scum.

[Wickedestjr]

Also,

Mod:

I'm voting cjdrum.

[LimMePls]

I agree with pretty much all of 491. I think Sloth is a better lynch though.

[DeityKabuto]

Unvote
Vote cjdrum

Wickedest that is a reasonable case, and if he is scum, I don't think his scum buddies would vote upon him that easy, since the town is at odds, which two townies gone at D1.

But I still have

FoS neil

Cjdrum was wrong about Empking, so he may be wrong about neil or MoI.

[zMuffinMan]

He suggests an inconsistency here, but he is pretty obviously taking HezLucky's posts out of context here. Very scummy: I can't see TownzMuffinMan making this mistake. I think the misrep looked deliberate.

There's no misrepresentation there. Hez clearly indicates he doesn't care about Emp's flip, he just wants him lynched. Later he plays white knight acting like Emp's lynch would be tragic (when it really wouldn't be because if he was the real seer he'd die N1 anyway... we'd be only slightly worse off if he were lynched D1)

3.) Earlier he gave me a hard time for saying that Empking and neil1113 were unlikely to attract attention to themselves early on as scum. From memory, he said that it was weak reasoning. However, in his post 441, he feels the need to mention that Hez's rvs vote for me is a possible link between us. Way to both have your cake and eat it.

Are... you... serious? You think something as subtle as an RVS vote draws attention to yourself? The point of mentioning the RVS vote is that it was one of the more noticeable links between you and Hez. It wasn't obvious "attention attraction" like the neil vs Emp thing.

Try harder.

I NEVER said that TS was suspicious for voting Hez. I said he was suspicious for voting somebody with no votes when he had previously expressed interest in a bandwagon.

Again, this wasn't proof that you are scum, I was pointing out the link between you and Hez that has been consistent throughout the game.

Hint: "his first association with Hez" should have clued you in on this.

It was nothing to do with finding you scummy. It was your association with Hez.

Will respond to the rest of this and the rest of the thread when I have time.

[Sloth]

@Mod: Requesting replacement.

[zMuffinMan]

Spoiler walling the rest of the response to Wicked...

Spoiler:

The idea of lynching him tomorrow simply because he hasn't died is really bad. IGMEO: MoI

You made a big deal out of MoI suggesting something that was perfectly logical and not at all scummy. For someone that complains about IIoA, you're pretty hypocritical.

I see a lot of scum motivation here. It's possible you're a werewolf trying to look like you're looking out for the town, knowing full well that you're going to NK Emp N1. It's possible you're mafia and you're just padding MoI up to lynch him.

What I don't see is the town motivation here. How does making a big deal out of what MoI was suggesting make any sense? How was MoI suspicious for suggesting i?

I'm pretty sure he even said that pressure was one of the reasons for his vote.

Stating you're voting someone to put pressure on them doesn't mean there's any less pressure. If he said he was voting purely for pressure (and not because he found Hez scummy as well), then you might have a case here...

neil-on-Hez: He's scummy and needs pressure
you-on-neil: Well, you said you were doing it for pressure, that's scummy because he knows he's being pressured now.

And you don't see the problem here?

First of all, your wrong: there were many people that found DK suspicious. Secondly, there's a clear difference. Hez wanted DK lynched when he voted him at the end of the day. I didn't get that impression from neil1113.

No, there was no support for a DK lynch. There were people who found him suspicious, but there was no support for a D1 DK lynch.

If Hez wanted DK lynched, then why did he change his vote to MoI, who had even less support than DK?

I believe I've explained my read on Hez and cleared this confusion

Gut+PoE?

The main issue I have here is that you clearly said you thought Hez was scummy, and you clearly said you thought neil was bussing Hez, but you showed absolutely no interest in putting any pressure on Hez, or questioning Hez, or anything of the sort.

And this would have been what I was referring to with inconsistency.

1: I said it was a possibility.

the reasoning neil1113 gave looks really weak and it looks like neil1113 is bussing

You thought both of them were scum, you suggested neil was bussing. That's not suggesting a possibility.

2: Where did I say this? [thinking Hez is scum]

You said you suspect Hez. Unless you suspect Hez of being a townie, it's quite clear what the implication is here.

@DK,

Why do you think HezLucky is less scum than neil?

Isn't it obvious, they are either both scum, or only one of them?

I have no idea what you're asking in your first question, but your second question is false.

--

I find myself mostly agreeing with the content of #491. I've been giving cjdrum too much of a free ride based on previous experience with him (he was VT in my first game and got lynched D1 for being scummy - the entire wagon on him consisted of townies, too).

If this Hez wagon doesn't pick up, I'll switch to cjdrum.

On that note, if anyone thinks Hez isn't scum, I want to know why.

[LimMePls]

@Mod: Requesting replacement.

Can we lynch it now?

[MagnaofIllusion]

General Comments

–

I think the relative difficulty in gathering any sort of wagon on DK despite is scummy play at the start of today is a sign he’s scum of some sort. Were he Town VI I think there would be much more of a push to run him up. I can understand a few Town having reservations but there is no way with 5 anti-Town players it should be this difficult.

Wicked and Muffin seem to be locked in some death-spiral style head to head at the moment.

I very much agree with Wicked's 491 also.

--

I laugh at how their are several scum trying to push suspicious on me,

Who are the scum pushing suspicions on you? I want direct names aside from Neil who your vote is already on.

--

Take from that what you may, he was my highest point total before but he's very VI so I'm still super-hesitant.

At what level of direct scummy play do you stop giving the “VI” pass out? I’m curious to know how much higher DK would have to go on your ‘scum-o-meter’ before he actually could be voted.

Further, he didn't like the Empking wagon and unvoted DK. I like the DK unvote because of my own personal hesitation that DK might be town VI, rather than obvscum. DK and Empking are both very easy lynches, and he just didn't go for either of them

So if his DK vote was not RVS I’m curious how he gets points for unvoting as he ‘didn’t go’ for DK. A serious vote (as shown in 132) indicates he did feel DK was scummy and was pushing for his lynch.

At this juncture I’m not going to argue that LMP is likely Town since he’s a fairly easy read in that department IMO. I just want you to justify that logic.

- "thinks like Hez" re: Muffin and MoI, who are my top two targets right now. Though I'm sure you knew that my meta actually disproves your argument and not the other way around -_-. You desperately want to be right. But you aren't. I'm not in the other scumgroup, buddy. I'm straight up town.

Interested in why you lump me in to this argument when I’ve said I wanted to see more from you based on my meta read and haven't said you are directly scummy. I’d like an idea.

Feeling is a funny thing. As you say, you can use it to justify anything

Absolutely. It’s what you’ve used to justify most of your posts against me.

--

I agree with pretty much all of 491. I think Sloth is a better lynch though.

Can we lynch it now?

Let’s discuss this LMP. I’m not adverse to the position that Sloth is scum but I want to see why you think he’s a better lynch than CJ.

Both have been avoiding the thread.

CJ’s last post was Tuesday where he hopped on Sloth for posting elsewhere on site and not posting here. Since then he has 2 full pages of posts in his “See user’s posts” list all over site – mostly in Mish-Mash but also in Newbie games and MD. He’s basically doing the same behavior that he voted sloth for but on a much large scale.

Sloth’ last post here was over a week ago. He has 1 “See user’s post” list since then and was posting in other game. However this is the only game he requested replacement in.

Add in that Cj was actively scummy yesterday (specifically avoiding giving reads) and today (his “Oops, Seer is dead” woe is me Tell) and I can’t see going after Sloth first.

If you disagree tell me why.

Regardless I’ll make you a deal – support the CJ wagon today and I’ll back you on Sloth tomorrow. Sound good?