Mini 1166: Town Hall Mafia (GAME OVER)

[C-Worl]

6. C-Worl:

all C-Worl is trying to do is appeal to emotion

And push quicklynches by doing so, as I've already pointed out. Most recently refusing to give me a single quote to back up his statements, instead opting to say "you didn't read." You would think that presenting evidence would be to his benefit, especially since he was accusing me of not presenting enough. Instead just a "no, I'm done talking to you," emotional much? The most impatient player in this game. Impatient for lynching, impatient in answering questions, and vote switching when iamausername says so. Leaning Scum.

I DID QUOTE THE DAMN REASONING! READ THE FUCKING THREAD!

[ThAdmiral]

I'm thinking ThAd at the moment. I'm not exactly happy with the general bandwagon hopping. First Kuz, then CWorl, and now back to Archaist. Of these votes, both of them have been preceded by votes and quotes from iamausername, which makes me suspicious of him as well, though not quite to the degree of ThAdmiral, since it could just as easily be coincidence, and nothing is concrete.

What I find weird is that you are approaching this situation without even

considering

that kuz/archaist might be scum.

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

Archaist is town to me, and Kuz was over eager town. I'm basing this on my own experience as newbtown and am not seeing him as scum at the moment. I'd rather you didn't push me to consider Archaist scum.

[C-Worl]

Archaist is town to me, and Kuz was over eager town. I'm basing this on my own experience as newbtown and am not seeing him as scum at the moment. I'd rather you didn't push me to consider Archaist scum.

Yeah, that doesn't work since he's not a newb. New to site does not equal new to mafia and this point has been brought up. Your basing him being town from something that was denied by Kuz himself. If you don't see him as scum that's all well and good because we all interpret things differently but if him being a newb is what you're basing your interpretations off of then you need to reconsider them.

[Fishythefish]

Fishy:
Could you be more specific about what haven't you liked about me regarding kuz?

Sure. At one point, you added a couple of points about kuz without voting for him again. One was the rather odd line of "Why shouldn't people assume malicious intent - it's a game of mafia?" - which is a reason to say that absolutely anything is scummy. This seems to be prodding kuz's wagon while adding nothing at all. Then you joined the "not claiming at L-1 is scummy" chorus, when noone had asked kuz to claim and there was no protown reason for doing so. Your sole argument for this seems to be that kuz isn't a newbie to mafia, and therefore his site must have a meta of "claim at L-1" - which even

this

site only arguably has (I certainly wouldn't have claimed in kuz's position, and I'm sure I'm not alone there). You seem to be pushing kuz's wagon pretty hard for pretty weak reasons.

[Beefster]

Rhinox has been prodded

[Rhinox]

sorry guys I'll try to get caught up soon!

[Rhinox]

Rhinox's posting is sensible without really committing him to anything. How do you feel about our current wagons, Rhinox?

I fell a little behind, but the current wagons being cworl and archaist? I'm not too happy about lynching either of them. Aside from voting ThAd to move the game along, cworl hasn't really done anything I object to.

Possible

the townslip iam pointed out should weigh in a little. archaist/kuz seems like the "every game typical D1 scummy looking townie mislynch" to me. kuz got more attention for his playstyle - being a cocky ass - more so than for doing anything really scummy. archaist I'm null on right now.

Rhinox:
It's not the what of the micro, it's the how of the macro.
When you placed your vote on kuz, what were you hoping would happen? What were you expecting would happen?
Other people voted kuz. And you got upset that *your* suspect was being pressured to lynch-1. If there was enough evidence for you to vote, there wasn't enough for additional reasons?

I see what you're saying, but consider - kuz was my first vote. I guess you could call it a pressure vote. He was scummy enough for my first real vote of the game, but then his response to my reasons seemed like a townish response, and then I saw ThAd vote him for a reason I didn't agree with at all. So you're exactly right, it is the how and not the what. I wasn't upset about kuz being at L-1 (the what), I was upset about "how" ThAd tried to justify that vote. It looked opportunistic I guess. I'd have had the same response if it wasn't an L-1 vote. A bad (IMO) vote is a bad vote, regardless of where it comes in the VC.

And like I've been trying to say, just because I was voting kuz for some reasons doesn't mean I'm locked into that vote for the day or that I should be happy if anyone else votes kuz for any reason. You're trying to say that I got upset at ThAd for voting my suspect, but that is a misrepresentation. I got upset with ThAd because he placed a vote for a weak reason IMO.

[C-Worl]

more so than for doing anything really scummy. archaist I'm null on right now.

He apparently didn't properly read the thread after claiming to. Then, once I finally quoted the reasoning that he failed to read he attacked me for something I said in the post where I quoted that reasoning yet still claimed that I hadn't quoted the reasoning. He's not reading the thread.

[Archaist]

I'm sorry, we don't seem to be seeing eye to eye on this matter. Please don't say I didn't read when I just put a lot of time into a player by player analysis. All I ask for is one post number, that's it. Could you please post what # I should look at? Maybe I missed it because I didn't recognize the quote as reasoning, or didn't think it was nearly sufficient. Then perhaps we could move on from this exchange, which I feel has gotten way past the point of being helpful to anyone.

[C-Worl]

Oh I get it. I asked kuz who his mates are. As in plural. Therefore IAAUN sees that I already think their could be 3 or more on the scum team. He asks me how many players are in the game because he's certain that there are only 2 scum in a 9 person game. Therefore he characterizes my ignorance as a towntell.

Did I get it right IAAUN?

Maybe instead of ISOs you should read the whole damn game? Oh wait, you didn't because as scum you don't feel motivated to do a complete reread because you already know who is and is not scum. Where as a townie that replaced in would reread because they're in a position of less intelligence. If you're not even going to bother reading I won't bother replying to you. This is my last post in response to you. Now go find your rope so we can use it to hang you.

This is the post where I quoted the reasoning.

#161

I forget what the number of the original post was. I asked IAAUN if this lined up with his way of thinking and he confirmed it.

[Archaist]

Thank you. I admit that I totally misinterpreted that post. I was not looking for such round-about, speculative reasoning, but it is certainly better that what I incorrectly thought was no reasoning at all. Ignorance isn't necessarily town, as it can be easily feigned, but I take back my statements that the tell wasn't supported by anything. That pretty much kills my case on iamausername, and makes C-Worl look better, though the "lynch to move the game forward" is still scummy.

Similarly, re "opportunism"- you are equating me and Rhinox, how? Because I jumped onto a 0-member Rhinox bandwagon, at the precise moment when 0 other players were attacking Rhinox?
The only way that I see for you to label what I did as "opportunism" is if you think Rhinox was genuinely suspicious. (Which in your latest post you do think so.)
So why did you attack me multiple times over it, and then only several posts afterwards say that Rhinox is suspicious?

I meant it seemed opportunistic to attack Kuz for questioning the read when you also asked for clarification on it. I don't believe I said you and Rhinox are equal in any way, other that my read on you is both neutral. Just because no one else was voting Rhinox doesn't mean it's not opportunistic to jump on him for coming in late. And yes, I agree with you, I did say what Rhinox did was suspicious in that post, though neither of you two seemed strongly one way or the other.

[C-Worl]

@Archaist, yeah sorry for the Ad Hom. I probably came off as an ass in the situation so... yeah. I still think you're scummy due to your predecessor but I'll

Unvote

Since I'm starting to feel genuine attempt from you.

However, I still have a

FOS

on you so do think I'm letting you off the hook. I've just been tunneling and figure that I need to reread.

[sAbLLimINal]

@Archaist: I was looking back and I remembered there was a discussion about whether or not kuz should have claimed when he was at L-1. What would you have done in that situation?

I made notes about everyone's voting record and I figured I'll share it with everyone to take a look:

Code: Select all

Day 1 Activities

1. Mitsuru Kirijo - votes iam(random) 

3. EmpTyger - bw cworl: kuz(random), votes rhino

4. th3kuzinator Archaist - votes cworl(random)

5. ThAdmiral - bw iam,fishy: sab (random), bw cworl, iam, rhino: kuz(being upset), bw kuz: cworl, bw iam: kuz

6. C-Worl - votes rhinox(random), votes kuz(omgus), bw fishy, rhino: thad(move game forward), bw iam, thad: kuz

7. iamausername - votes sab(random), bw cworl, rhino: kuz(being upset)

8. Fishythefish - bw iam: sab, votes emp(scummy arguments), bw rhino: thad(about kuz claiming), votes mk(not doing anything)

9. Rhinox - bw cworl: kuz(being overdefensive), votes thad(bad reason for l1)

Code: Select all

Player  	Votes	BW	Total
MK      	1	0	1
Emp     	1	1	2
Kuz     	1	0	1
ThAd    	0	4	4
Cworl   	2	2	4
iamauser	1	1	2
fishy   	2	2	4
rhino   	1	1	2

[Mitsuru Kirijo]

Alright ThAD. Aside from Archaist, who do you think is scum and why? I'm interested to see your own reasoning behind scumtells, as we've seen very little of your own opinion throughout this game.

Also Rhinox, I didn't see your own scumreads in your catch up post. Do you have any yet? What do you think of Archaist and his actions since he has been placed into the game? I've seen justification and explanations for your posts earlier in the game, but none of your opinions in the present.

[EmpTyger]

Archaist:
You don't see any difference between "asking what the reason for something is" and "arguing that those reasons are faulty"?

And what did you mean in your very first post:

To me, the jump onto kuz feels like simple opportunism.

Kind of like your #55, a blatant attempt to start a wagon... for coming in a bit late?

if you weren't saying me and Rhinox were equal in any way?


Fishy:
What is your theory to explain kuz's behavior?

Your sole argument for this seems to be that kuz isn't a newbie to mafia, and therefore his site must have a meta of "claim at L-1" - which even this site only arguably has (I certainly wouldn't have claimed in kuz's position, and I'm sure I'm not alone there).

That's not my point at all, so let me clarify. It's not that kuz should have (or shouldn't have) claimed at lynch-1.

This is a player who claims that he is "known throughout [his site] for doing town gambits", on a site which "champions the 'townies never lie' type schpiel".

If he's heard of the terms "chainsaw defense" and he's familiar enough with LAL to refer to it only by its initials, I can't believe that he hasn't been exposed to, at the bare minimum, claim at lynch-1.

So the point isn't what the proper thing to do is at lynch-1 is.
The point is, why didn't kuz react to being at lynch-1?
Because I cannot in any way believe that a player who again is "known throughout [his site] for doing town gambits", on a site which "champions the 'townies never lie' type schpiel" is so unfamiliar with being bandwagoned to lynch-1 that too many players in this game are labeling him a newbie over it.

As for:

"Why shouldn't people assume malicious intent - it's a game of mafia?" - which is a reason to say that absolutely anything is scummy.

As I've already explained, this is directly in response to kuz's saying that we "shouldn't assume malicious intent". Ignoring my motivation, are you interpreting kuz as saying that absolutely nothing is scummy?

But yes, I was putting pressure on kuz, even if I wasn't voting him. Because I have 2 possible theories as to his alignment, and I wanted to narrow that down. That's not suspicious. And, if it is... what did you mean, then, with your last sentence in [74]?


Rhinox:
What specifically was it in Kuz's response which gave you the townish feeling about him?


C-Worl:
Ironically, I was just about to say I was ready to compromise on Archaist. What are you seeing to give you pause?


iama:
Assuming Archaist to be guilty, who do you think his partner might be?

[C-Worl]

C-Worl:
Ironically, I was just about to say I was ready to compromise on Archaist. What are you seeing to give you pause?

It's not what I was seeing but what I was failing to see. That being any other suspects. I realized I wasn't actually looking at anyone else. I realized I was tunneling and decided to back off. I still think he's scummy but I figured I would back off and see if I made a mistake first.

[EmpTyger]

Unvote: Rhinox

Sorry for the doublepost, but just noticed something I want to think through.

[C-Worl]

Unvote: Rhinox

Sorry for the doublepost, but just noticed something I want to think through.

IT wasn't a double cuz I ninjad you.

[Beefster]

It seems like the representatives can't make up their minds. Fickle crowd. Keep in mind that you only have 6 RL days left... If I don't have to prod anyone over the next 6 days, I'll extend the deadline up to 3 days if needed.

Votecount 1.8

Archaist (2) - iamausername, ThAdmiral

ThAdmiral (1) - sAb
C-Worl (1) - Archaist
MK (1) - Fishy

Not Voting

- Mitsuru Kirijo, Rhinox, C-Worl, EmpTyger

With 9 players alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

[ThAdmiral]

@ sab: nice statistics. Are you just going to leave it at that or are you going to do analysis?

Alright ThAD. Aside from Archaist, who do you think is scum and why? I'm interested to see your own reasoning behind scumtells, as we've seen very little of your own opinion throughout this game.

- Seaworld for the vote on me "to get the game moving forward" which was basically out of nowhere. This is one blip though, he's been pretty good other than that.
- you (mitsuru) mainly for your very cagey approach to the game. Earlier you said that the wagon on kuz was too fast and that you wouldn't be hammering. At the same time however you didn't put your vote on anyone on the wagon even though you thought it was suspicious. Also you haven't addressed the point that c-worl brought up about kuz not being a newb, which was your main reason for thinking he was town.

[Rhinox]

Emp: it wasn't anything specific he said. Basically, his iso 12 and 13, it just seemed like he really believed what he was saying in his responses to me and they seemed genuine. He responded to all my points in a way that left me with nothing new to say or ask. Basically, I felt like I no longer had a case.

Mitsuru: ThAd is still my top scum pic. Archaist hasn't been great so far since replacing in, but I just have my reservations because the slot seems like the "easy mislynch" slot. Sab also seems kinda in the background happy to fly under the radar. He's made a couple nice posts and a couple fluff posts, and I'm keeping an eye on him because I've been burnt in a few of my recent games by the under the radar player who makes it to the end of the game and turns out to be scum. You're kinda in the same place as Sab for me - not really on my radar, makes me a little nervous. I'm not sure about IAM, emp, and cworl right now but I guess if I had to say, my gut is leaning town on the 3 of them. I have no reservations about calling fishy town.

[iamausername]

iama:
Assuming Archaist to be guilty, who do you think his partner might be?

Most likely Rhinox. If not him, I suppose by process of elimination it would have to be you.

[sAbLLimINal]

@ sab: nice statistics. Are you just going to leave it at that or are you going to do analysis?

Well scum like to bandwagon, and that's what you've done so far in this game. I would imagine that the other scum player is probably trying to do the exact opposite of what you're doing to remain under the radar. Like I said before, the majority of bandwagons you were on also included iam, which makes me consider you two are scum. However, I feel that the best vote is you because of the reasons I already said.

[Fishythefish]

Fishy:
What is your theory to explain kuz's behavior?

I don't see much to explain. He got very defensive about his wagon, and then flaked. These are both things people do.

[quote="ET"}

Your sole argument for this seems to be that kuz isn't a newbie to mafia, and therefore his site must have a meta of "claim at L-1" - which even this site only arguably has (I certainly wouldn't have claimed in kuz's position, and I'm sure I'm not alone there).

That's not my point at all, so let me clarify. It's not that kuz should have (or shouldn't have) claimed at lynch-1.

This is a player who claims that he is "known throughout [his site] for doing town gambits", on a site which "champions the 'townies never lie' type schpiel".

If he's heard of the terms "chainsaw defense" and he's familiar enough with LAL to refer to it only by its initials, I can't believe that he hasn't been exposed to, at the bare minimum, claim at lynch-1.

So the point isn't what the proper thing to do is at lynch-1 is.
The point is, why didn't kuz react to being at lynch-1?
Because I cannot in any way believe that a player who again is "known throughout [his site] for doing town gambits", on a site which "champions the 'townies never lie' type schpiel" is so unfamiliar with being bandwagoned to lynch-1 that too many players in this game are labeling him a newbie over it.[/quote]
Hmmm... that makes a bit more sense. Reacting in some way to being at L-1 is much more something you'd expect to be in a meta than claiming at L-1. I still don't see how it is more likely that scum would fail to react at L-1.

As I've already explained, this is directly in response to kuz's saying that we "shouldn't assume malicious intent". Ignoring my motivation, are you interpreting kuz as saying that absolutely nothing is scummy?

No. IIRC (strapped for time right now, but pretty sure I RC) I interpreted kuz as saying that if he gives you a non-scummy explanation for his behaviour, you should take that into account.

But yes, I was putting pressure on kuz, even if I wasn't voting him. Because I have 2 possible theories as to his alignment, and I wanted to narrow that down. That's not suspicious. And, if it is... what did you mean, then, with your last sentence in [74]?

The not voting thing isn't really important, actually. But I feel you've been trying to get kuz lynched based on not very much evidence.

That's all rather off the top of my head, and I'll read posts and see whether I still feel this way soon.