Mini 1170: Nowhereville Mafia '11- Over!

[The Kool]

Alright. You recall me pulling out the newb card, yes? Here's the newb card? There goes the newb card, out the window. Bye! I plan to never need you again.

Before I get on to my reads, I would just like to wave the card I just threw out the window one more time. The way I learned mafia, you didn't really win unless you survived, even as town. This presents an 'every man for himself' mindset, and even townies will aggressively defend themselves when pressed to it. Which, in hindsight, is probably why I fail at defending myself so bad, and have trouble accepting the mindset of taking one for the team. Oh, and Kal? Any sort of response to an accusation is a defense, whatever it consists of. What matters is the method of defense.

Now, on with the point of this post. Aside from not being AWOL. Speaking of, I'll be gone Friday evening through Sunday, so ya know.

I'm getting a scum read on Kal, and have for a while. Somewhat akin to one of my old gut reads, but this one with more substance. The thing that sticks out most starkly is his jump to defend himself with a VT claim when nowhere near a lynch, even I wouldn't have done that. His claim of reasoning in #186 being "I really did not have anything better to do." His assurance that Elfen is newbtown, and yet in the same breath, his willingness to let him get lynched. His following of Espy, who is, as far as I have seen, the only person he is following. His "He looks town to me" read on Espy with no explanation. His insistence that Elf is town, and while maintaining this stance, still willing to turn and vote for him (#215-#220). His apparent belief that we have to lynch people to confirm that they are town, which is kinda pointless to me, not even trying to confirm them other ways.

I would vote Kal, but I am already doing so.

I also used to be pretty sure of Sleepy's reasoning, but now I'm not so sure, and he's feeling scummy. But as I can now hear the birds outside my window, read will be tomorrow.

[PJ.]

Panzer, could you give me some links to games where you have correctly identified the alignment of newb players?

My games are over a year old at least and would require reading that I'm not willing to do, especially at 3 in morning, so I'll kindly ask that you take my word for it, or go through my games yourself.

Panzer, why did you go from 'if Quinnster is scum, Kool is town' in #326 to 'the scum team is Quinnster, Kalofer and Kool' in #341?
Also, I'm willing to cut you some slack over letting newbscum linger; it somewhat mirrors my own opinions, I think.

My initial read was Quinn was scum rolefishing a townie. I thought about it more and I believe they either have fake claims or could of established them Night 0, and Quinn was trying to save his buddy by having him claim. Kinda like throwing a fat pitch, trying to get him to hit it out of the park to get us to stop suspecting him, but it was a poor gambit.

[Kalofer]

Oh btw if anyone's interested these are my reads:

1) Charter - town, maybe he's going slightly overboard with trying to lynch SK but he is logical and consistent and his motivations seem town.

2) Elfen - town, seems consistent with his newbiness at the very least. And although he's not doing very much I see no reason not to believe his "OMG it's making my head explode!" excuse. And at least he hasn't been silently creeping onto wagons like kool.

3) CoolSkins - town, has been asking really good questions, really good cases and brought up really good points.

4) LordChronos - town, consistent and seems town motivated, could be scum lying low and posting at opportune moments to try and look like town, but I wouldn't bet on it.

5) Cloudocean - null/town, doesn't say much (townie efficiency or scum laying low), but is consistent and seems to have town motivations.

6) The Kool - scum, plays the newb card, fair enough. But actions before that and need to justify vote for me as "not just simple bandwagoning" without providing adequate reasons looks scummy.

7) Supreme Overlord - null/scum, asks unimportant questions to make himself look like he's town and trying to scumhunt. Seems like you're asking me questions to try and understand my logic but I'm starting to think you're purposely misunderstanding it. Enough people think I'm scum already, those who aren't voting for me aren't because they think other people are scummier, you are spending the majority of your time trying to make me look even scummier instead of actually scumhunting.

8) SleepyKrew - null, could be an overly aggressive townie, could be overly aggressive scum trying to look like an overly aggressive townie, could be vig.

9) Quinnster - null/scum, his defense could be a result of scum quickly giving in to pressure after realising what he did was wrong, or town honestly saying he's sorry after realising what he did was wrong. Still, his random conviction that kool was town along with the rolefishing are scummy enough moves by themselves.

10) Espeonage - null, too secretive.

11) Panzerjager - null, isn't really being scummy but seems too naive to be definite town to me.

[Kalofer]

Alright. You recall me pulling out the newb card, yes? Here's the newb card? There goes the newb card, out the window. Bye! I plan to never need you again.

Before I get on to my reads, I would just like to wave the card I just threw out the window one more time. The way I learned mafia, you didn't really win unless you survived, even as town. This presents an 'every man for himself' mindset, and even townies will aggressively defend themselves when pressed to it. Which, in hindsight, is probably why I fail at defending myself so bad, and have trouble accepting the mindset of taking one for the team. Oh, and Kal? Any sort of response to an accusation is a defense, whatever it consists of. What matters is the method of defense.

Now, on with the point of this post. Aside from not being AWOL. Speaking of, I'll be gone Friday evening through Sunday, so ya know.

I'm getting a scum read on Kal, and have for a while. Somewhat akin to one of my old gut reads, but this one with more substance. The thing that sticks out most starkly is his jump to defend himself with a VT claim when nowhere near a lynch, even I wouldn't have done that. His claim of reasoning in #186 being "I really did not have anything better to do." His assurance that Elfen is newbtown, and yet in the same breath, his willingness to let him get lynched. His following of Espy, who is, as far as I have seen, the only person he is following. His "He looks town to me" read on Espy with no explanation. His insistence that Elf is town, and while maintaining this stance, still willing to turn and vote for him (#215-#220). His apparent belief that we have to lynch people to confirm that they are town, which is kinda pointless to me, not even trying to confirm them other ways.

I would vote Kal, but I am already doing so.

I also used to be pretty sure of Sleepy's reasoning, but now I'm not so sure, and he's feeling scummy. But as I can now hear the birds outside my window, read will be tomorrow.

You could have just said: "I think he's scum based on everything everyone else said" but even if you had I wouldn't have accepted it this time. I'm not even going to bother to explain how many of the things I've said you've misunderstood completely in an effort to make me look scummier.

[CooLskins]

@quinnster,
1)do you or do you not have a case on kool being town? If yes, you had better have it in your next fucking post.
2) can you or can you not defend yourself without using the noob card? And in your next post do it.
3)Why should we believe you? If yes, in your next post tell me why.
4)Scum reads here and now with reasons. No exceptions.

unvote, vote: quinster

. I will also be voting for the next person who uses the noob card as a defense. Spawning a new strategy: lynch all noobs.But in all seriousness, it's really getting a tad bit ridiculous.

1) I do not. It was only my stupid view of him breadcrumbing.

Not to respond with a another quote but,

I was asked to defend him against a large number of people who were suspicious of him. I had already showed my allegiance to him earlier on without explaining it, so I felt the need to.

In retrospect, I should have heightened my actual case

, instead of forcing a claim (a claim I had "proof" for, no less!).

So your case only consists of one point?

2) I cannot. I've been playing for a while. I should know better. I was easily able to handle two games, but now something's happening IRL that's clearly making me not think straight. I am not going to pull out the newb card, because I should not need it, and I won't hide behind it.

^yet you do not make an effort to defend yourself without using it.

INFORMATION: I will advocate the lynch of anybody who uses the noob card after this point.

3) I didn't really leave myself a lot of room to be believed, here, did I? I should hope you can see that it would be a shitty move if I was mafia, and it would be a shitty move if I was town. I'm not trying to play WIFOM, but trying to show that it was a shitty move in general.
SO we should believe you because your play is bad that neither scum nor town would do it? Isn't that the same thing as the noob card? And we never hear real facts or quotes to believe you.

4)

Espeonage

- In ISO #s 8 and 9, being sure that elfen is town so early, in ISO #14, telling everyone else to completely stop looking at elfen, ISO #19 voting for Kalofer while saying he's not his "favourite choice" seems like distancing, in ISO #28 confirming three more town without any sort of doubt whatsoever.

fine, much better. You actually site information.

now on to other things...

I think they two scummiest people here are Kal and Sleepy to be honest with you. Elfen is confirmed town. I think Kool is confirmed scum but at this point I think we can save him for the second lynch if we catch his buddy.

Sleepy seems to be defending Kool(could be his buddy), while Kal is obviously distancing. Not sure which side i want to pick in the end, but I do want a claim

Vote:Kalofer

I'm distancing orrrrrr I'm town and voting for someone who I think is scum, why are you preferring the former over the latter?
As to the claim I'm a VT.

yeah, do I really need to saying anything about this. Yes one thing:

Why the hell did you claim at L-3?

@All

Is anyone else confused about why you would see something you think is someone bread crumbing and then call attention to it as town, especially if that player is not the leading wagon?

I'd be happy with either Quinn or Kal as a lynch today. Kool can wait til we lynch Quinn.

why would it matter whether I claim at L-1, 2, 3 or whatever?

Answer: Because lets say you were actually a power role. Lets say a doctor for example. You claim at l-3. People aren't really committed to your wagon (as is right now) and we go off and lynch some other guy. The scum (knowing that you are town) nk you and we lose the doc over nothing. If, however, you claimed at l-1 you wouldn't have given the scum the information as early as you would have when you claimed at l-3. And the town is already sorta going to lynch you so if you don't get lynched today the scum might rationalize that you are dead meat and not nk you to wifom the town.

I don't understand any of Espeonage's theories/reads

Who does?
But one thing can be said about espy, he is ether doing a good job of trying to find out what is going on or he is doing a really good job of covering up his rolefishing.

Alright. You recall me pulling out the newb card, yes? Here's the newb card? There goes the newb card, out the window. Bye! I plan to never need you again.

Yes, but is this because some one said they would lynch you over it (me). Or is it because you are actually going to post content?

Before I get on to my reads, I would just like to wave the card I just threw out the window one more time.

^you know, this is exactly what I was thinking you were going to do.

Conclusion: I would be willing to lynch Quinster, kool, and kalf in that order.

[Kalofer]

why would it matter whether I claim at L-1, 2, 3 or whatever?

Answer: Because lets say you were actually a power role. Lets say a doctor for example. You claim at l-3. People aren't really committed to your wagon (as is right now) and we go off and lynch some other guy. The scum (knowing that you are town) nk you and we lose the doc over nothing. If, however, you claimed at l-1 you wouldn't have given the scum the information as early as you would have when you claimed at l-3. And the town is already sorta going to lynch you so if you don't get lynched today the scum might rationalize that you are dead meat and not nk you to wifom the town.

If I was a town PR I would have thought twice before claiming early, but I'm not a town PR and all I've told scum now is that I'm a VT, as if they suspected a town PR of playing so recklessly or as if they were actually planning on NKing me if I somehow survived past day 1.

[The Kool]

You could have just said: "I think he's scum based on everything everyone else said" but even if you had I wouldn't have accepted it this time. I'm not even going to bother to explain how many of the things I've said you've misunderstood completely in an effort to make me look scummier.

Firstly, that's because according to the discussions I've seen so far, just saying 'I believe him' is what do you call it, sheeping? At any rate, at least slightly scummy. And now you're saying that trying to provide reasoning is scummy? Sounds like you're trying to come up with reasons against me.

That said, it was 6am, so I may indeed have misunderstood some things, and if you provide reasonable reasoning that you have already given that I must have missed, I will retract some of those points, but unfortunately the vote is staying on you. I have always been slightly suspicious of you, hence why my vote was on you in the first place, and why I never removed it.

Before I get on to my reads, I would just like to wave the card I just threw out the window one more time.

^you know, this is exactly what I was thinking you were going to do.

I knew you would say that, it was a bit of humor. Or does humor have no place here?

[Kalofer]

I'd say what you're doing is even scummier because you're trying to hide the fact that you're sheeping.I'm saying your reasons are basically copy + paste all the reasons that have been brought up by everyone against me before.
The VT claim I just explained in #380.
And yes I am willing to allow an elfen lynch. Right now I'm roughly 60% sure he'd flip town, and while I'd much rather lynch you, quinnster or SK, if I was given absolutely no other choice, I would lynch elfen.
How else can someone be confirmed as scum or town apart from lynching?

[The Kool]

If other people came up with the same reasons, that's not my fault. Do I need new ones?

If you believe someone is down, DON'T lynch them. Because if you are right, you just lynched a townie, and that is never good for town. You try to prevent townie lynches.

[Kalofer]

No you don't need new reasons, you might as well say the ones you've used aren't your own.
And if you're wrong?

[The Kool]

Well I tried to come up with reasons myself by reading through your posts again. Multiple people can come up with the same reasons, though I did see some of them in use before.

If you're wrong, it should become apparent as time moves on, at least to some people. And if not, that's some darn good mafia that deserves to win. Not that we should just lie down and let them, mind you. But there is no reason WHATSOEVER to desire, or even help, a lynch on someone you think is town. Unless - and here is the sole exception - you are anti-town.

[SleepyKrew]

Anyone find it funny charter responded to me, but not my questions, before he went V/LA?
I'm sure someone else suspicious of me will be willing to answer them in place of charter. After all, I'm obvscum so it shouldn't be hard, right?

[cloudocean]

@supreme overlord

elfen/kool

[Elfen]

Well, Imma post my suspicions shortly, so keep an eye

[CooLskins]

Kal and Kool may both be scummy, but they are not scum together. I don't reads Kool's vote on Kal as a bus, and Kal's attitude towards Kool is not indicative of them being scum together. Right now, I've got a stronger scum read on Kool than Kal, so right now I think Kal is prob town. Scummy town, but town nonetheless. ATM I'm thinking the scum team is Quin/Kool/Supreme Overlord. I'm a little weak on the Supreme Overlord read, but that's what I've got.

[SleepyKrew]

Elfen, it's been "shortly".

[Midnight's Sorrow]

Vote Count D-1 #9

(4) Kalofer- Supreme Overlord, SleepyKrew, LordChronos, The Kool

(2) The Kool- Kalofer, cloudocean

(1) Espeonage- Quinnster

(1) SleepyKrew- charter

(3) Quinnster- Espeonage, Panzerjager, CooLskins


(2) Not voting- WingDamage9001, Elfen

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline is June 3rd, Midnight Central.

... Still finding a replacement for

WingDamage9001

, and now will be searching for a replacement for

Quinnster

as well...

[Elfen]

unvote, vote Sleepy

As much as I love the sudden rush of Kool votes (which I love very much), I think Sleepy is scummier. I was going to try and wait until tomorrow to go after him, but this recent post of his cracks the door open for Kool to be town. It really looks like Sleepy is hoping Kool will get lynched, and that someone stupid will do it, and set up two easy mislynches for him.

Plus, there's the terrible way he's reacting to this wagon. First, he has some inexplicable newbtown read on Kool, and no mention of why. Then there's how he tries to get votes back on Kalofer, but then one post later he basically throws in the towel and says 'go ahead and lynch Kool'. I don't like the sudden flipflop, it doesn't make sense if Sleepy is town and believes Kool to be town. It makes sense if Sleepy is scum and knows what Kool is.

Well, since I am going from like page 12, I may contradict or do things that may change in and out so bleh >_>. But starting with this quote … Um I slightly agree on this. But what else have you thought was scummy on him?

Kalofer wrote:1) At the time everyone was either voting for elfen or trying to explain why elfen was scum, and a few weren't even in the game yet. Espeonage I saw as town, because he actually decided to go do something (townhunt with which I see nothing wrong) while everyone was too busy talking about elfen who I think is town. I didn't think it could lead to anything, it certainly couldn't have lead to a lynch that early and at best we would have gotten more info from reactions and taking our minds off of elfen.
2) Yes but he said it soon after and that only served to further illustrate my point. It may not be "no mercy" but it is intolerance and it got town bogged down in irrelevance, what was the point of having 5 votes on a person without it being decided whether he was going to be lynched or not? Waste of votes is what I'm trying to say I guess.
3) I don't think scum would give in to pressure after 2 votes during RVS and start telling us why they hate RVS.
4) There is no such thing as sure. I am null on chronos but he appears town.
5) This sentiment applies to everyone, who said it doesn't?

1) I’m confused.. What are your thoughts on me any way?
2)True true..
3)… Mah bad
5) I have to agree with supreme overload on this one.. You have been following esp for a while now.

I can't defend myself here. It was a dumb thing to say. I looked at my options but clearly didn't think things through. I understand being lynched today if it's in the town's best interests. I simply couldn't make a Pro-Kool game when asked to, and resorted to the only shred of proof I have. In my defense, I have seen it done on the site before. I still believe Kalofer and Esp to be scum, but understand completely what my actions may have caused.

Why do you think they are scum?

Vote:Quinnster

That's a cardinal sin in my book. Between blatant rolefishing and being over defensive of another player(buddying), I really think you're today's lynch and if you flip scum, we'd be certain kool is town(because why would scum rolefish a scum buddy).

I highly recommend this because it gives us a ton more information then a Kool or Kalofer does at this point.

@Supreme, I've been playing this game for a long time and I feel fairly confident in my ability to accurately read players as new as Elfen and Kool, mostly because they are being rather obvious. If Quinnster pops scum, I would have to eat my words on Kool, but I'm absolutely positive Elfen is town and I'm not sure there's much that could change my opinion(to the point if Quinn rolefished Elfen I would be calling for his lynch even more fervantly). I do agree with you that I shouldn't speak in absolutes during a game of mafia.

Agreed, why would another person try to get a persons role(if they have a PR) unless they weren’t scum?? And Kool wasn’t even near a lynch…

Also, as for now(page 14) I think Kal may be leaning town-ish. Will post scum/ton thing later on.

@Kalofer
Accepting and admitting is defensive, you say? Defensiveness is scummy, you say? Well, I'm not out to change your opinions, just to get scum (like you) killed! If we don't do it today, then I'll do it tonight!

Whoa, This is either a vig breadcrumb or a mafia slip up. Maybe an SK?

@Kal, what deal?


dude, my brain is on scum overload?

I know, SK has been confirming and knowing who is who so far, has he not?(well nearly for sure)

Charter, it might be more effective to respond to Sleepy's post, then demand he responds to yours. Not ideal, but it would give you the 'moral high ground', as it were.

Espeonage, you should probably just drop any role speculation, and the direction of PRs in #357. What good do you think it does to tell a doc to protect SK and for SK to kill Kool, even if he is a vig?

Elfen and cloudocean, just off the top of your head, who (2-3 people) strikes you as scummiest?

So far, SK, and quin

somewhat leaning scum but not there yet, kool kal

Oh btw if anyone's interested these are my reads:

1) Charter - town, maybe he's going slightly overboard with trying to lynch SK but he is logical and consistent and his motivations seem town.

2) Elfen - town, seems consistent with his newbiness at the very least. And although he's not doing very much I see no reason not to believe his "OMG it's making my head explode!" excuse. And at least he hasn't been silently creeping onto wagons like kool.

3) CoolSkins - town, has been asking really good questions, really good cases and brought up really good points.

4) LordChronos - town, consistent and seems town motivated, could be scum lying low and posting at opportune moments to try and look like town, but I wouldn't bet on it.

5) Cloudocean - null/town, doesn't say much (townie efficiency or scum laying low), but is consistent and seems to have town motivations.

6) The Kool - scum, plays the newb card, fair enough. But actions before that and need to justify vote for me as "not just simple bandwagoning" without providing adequate reasons looks scummy.

7) Supreme Overlord - null/scum, asks unimportant questions to make himself look like he's town and trying to scumhunt. Seems like you're asking me questions to try and understand my logic but I'm starting to think you're purposely misunderstanding it. Enough people think I'm scum already, those who aren't voting for me aren't because they think other people are scummier, you are spending the majority of your time trying to make me look even scummier instead of actually scumhunting.

8) SleepyKrew - null, could be an overly aggressive townie, could be overly aggressive scum trying to look like an overly aggressive townie, could be vig.

9) Quinnster - null/scum, his defense could be a result of scum quickly giving in to pressure after realising what he did was wrong, or town honestly saying he's sorry after realising what he did was wrong. Still, his random conviction that kool was town along with the rolefishing are scummy enough moves by themselves.

10) Espeonage - null, too secretive.

11) Panzerjager - null, isn't really being scummy but seems too naive to be definite town to me.

1) Yeah, I think he is leaning town, good reasonings.. But kind of bold to hastily vote SK, like you said.

2) Umm, you tell me?

3) Pfft, obtown, been scum hunting, asking questions, basically leading the town.

4) Umm, out of all of us (except that one dude) he has been rather lurking or hiding low if you say so to me. Not much out of his post (in the ISO 14 posts.) soo yeah. Any other thoughts on LC??

5) Same of what Kal put.

6) I really don’t know with this dude… acting just like me o-o

7) I really don’t know on him.

8) Yeah, I don’t like aggressive and his post have been to forward and to me, he has been doing odd things. Wanting to lynch a person right then and there and so forth.

9)The role fishing thing was just absurd..

10) I am confused with his post @_@

11) Neutral, plain and simple.

Also @ocean cloud. Why you think me scum?? >8O

[SleepyKrew]

unvote, vote Sleepy

As much as I love the sudden rush of Kool votes (which I love very much), I think Sleepy is scummier. I was going to try and wait until tomorrow to go after him, but this recent post of his cracks the door open for Kool to be town. It really looks like Sleepy is hoping Kool will get lynched, and that someone stupid will do it, and set up two easy mislynches for him.

Plus, there's the terrible way he's reacting to this wagon. First, he has some inexplicable newbtown read on Kool, and no mention of why. Then there's how he tries to get votes back on Kalofer, but then one post later he basically throws in the towel and says 'go ahead and lynch Kool'. I don't like the sudden flipflop, it doesn't make sense if Sleepy is town and believes Kool to be town. It makes sense if Sleepy is scum and knows what Kool is.

Well, since I am going from like page 12, I may contradict or do things that may change in and out so bleh >_>. But starting with this quote … Um I slightly agree on this. But what else have you thought was scummy on him?

I am tired of explaining this. People must learn2read.
Also, when have I been "confirming" things? I have hunches, I used proof, I used meta. I have not been DEFINITE on ANYTHING, because you can never be completely sure. Read Esp's sig.
Now I go to your reads:
You have flippity-floopitied on cloudocean.
How do you agree with a null read if you think I'm scum?
Also, since you quoted Kalofer, you never actually made a read on Kalofer. Do it plz.

I also encourage

everybody

to re-read myself and charter.

[Elfen]

Oops, sorry, I was going by number on the the quote @_@

12)Kal- Well, what can I say here, from a 1-10 (1 being town 10 being scum) I say he is like a 7.5, basically following a person I don't even understand @_@

and oops, why did I put that for 5?

5) I meant to say... he is a 6, He hasn't posted much, nor tried many things, but I am still curious to why he thinks I am suspicious.

Sorry, for the late post.. a Tornado watch where I live >_> and my grandparents where like.. "Get off the computer in case the computer shuts down and won't mess it up" >_> so yeah, That's why i have been on and off. and excessive reading >_> (♥ being a nerd)

@SK, I shall do that tomorrow.. I gotta study for bio test thats tomorrow, and I am makign like a 76-85 and If I do not make a 94-100 on this test, I'm fucked, I get grounded if I get a B

[SleepyKrew]

I get grounded if I get a B

You have my heartfelt sympathy there
Also, it appears Kal is your leading scumread. Why not vote him?

[Elfen]

Meh, what the hell, I got nothing to loose here

Vote: Kalofer

Also, i need to read charters post later.. What do you guys think of him?

[SleepyKrew]

I thought that slot was scum from the beginning, and charter's actions aren't helping. He's one of the four I'm willing to lynch.

[PJ.]

I think Charter is the townest person here, so you're not gonna have my support on a charter wagon. At this point, a charter wagon would be anti town, we have three main suspects that stand above and beyond anyone else, and it's not even that close. They all will give substantial info about each other(and others) when they die. Trying to lynch anyone else right now is just flat non-productive. That's why I've entirely laid off you because I feel getting someone that isn't Kal, Kool, or Quinn is just plain wrong.

[Midnight's Sorrow]

kondi2424

replaces

WingDamage9001

!

earworm

replaces

Quinnster

!

Thanks you two, and welcome to the game!