Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den - Endgame

[Amrun]

Okay, I've read, and for 8 quick pages, there's remarkably little comment. I don't have a lot I feel the need to say. I have several town reads, but I won't explain them until they become relevant and I'm not sure why so many people have done so.

VOTE: IceyCupcake

They are either town or third-party that doesn't interfere with town, imho, and I'll give this a go and see what happens.


In a more general sense, why has no one but chess addressed ABR's plan to mass-attack one scummy player at night? It could even be modified to "attack whichever of the following players X, Y, and Z are scummiest to you," which would take care of protection problems that chess proposed. However, that makes it less immediately effective but probably more effective long-term. Possible drawback: if one of those players is town, it might give scum an advantage as they could add their attacks in.

I think ABR's proposition should have received more attention than it has. Is protection really an issue against the whole town's attacks? I don't know how protection would function in this game, and I did not play and have not read its predecessors, so perhaps someone who has should weigh in.

The two scummiest players, currently, are Pine and implosion.

Pine, what inconsistencies made you vote for Soben?

Pine has more content to analyze than implosion, but it's hit and miss. Some of it is okay, and some of it is not. All together, I don't feel good about it.

implosion has played strangely so far. Hydra-hunting as a first priority and no scumhunting, despite being around.

Unvote; vote implosion

That being said...

Soben: Why hide a head of your hydra?


I'm not sure what I think of the SGR wagon yet. I see the reasons it exists, but it all feels very text book and my gut disagrees with it. I'll see what develops there.

[Amrun]

Oh, and Snake, what does good arrows mean?

[Soben]

I feel there's some disconnect in reading Icey as Town, realizing that if Icey is indeed some third party with an alt win condition it won't preclude town from a win, and then not following your Town read of Icey by following their plan.

Do you think Scum and Anti-Town third parties are found by different means on D1?

1. Yes, I do believe Scum and Anti-Town third parties are indeed found by different means. I'll show an example if you like: Lyncher will push strongly towards their target to the extent that they don't mind suspicion being cast against them if it means getting their target lynched. Mafia don't like the idea of trading one msylnch for excessive suspicion cast towards them. Therefore such actions have obvious town/third party motivations while not having scum motivations whatsoever.

2. The fact that their win condition doesn't preclude town from a win doesn't change anything, them recieveing their win condition could still have a drastic effect on the game.

3. As I previously stated risk vs reward shows that it isn't worth voting them, so I'll ask you right now, why do you believe that it's beneficial to vote them before voting elsewhere?

Post #194 by Riceballtail - I don't "know" that you're scum if I knew I would be screaming for votes on you, however I do indeed think you're scum. Your post was made way past the RVS section of the game and you refrained from commenting on anything that had occured.

Soben: Why hide a head of your hydra?

I haven't had a chance to discuss this game with my other head at all, if he wants to out his main account he's free to but it's something I don't want to do for him in case he opposes.

[Mana_Ku]

LMP
Why the vote against Wrath, when SGR calls the starting 'attacks' as too serious, suggests to look at somebody else by asking others who that player should be, to suggest Chesskid eventually, whom get finally a vote after some posts from SGR. He went back into the RVS and wanted others to get us out of the RVS. All his flip-flopping would be good for a cheerleading squad ._.

InHim
No idea what 'tacking onto' means. Stop using expensive words ._.
Other than that, there's a difference between 'agreeing' and 'piggybacking'. And you talked about a possible bus. About which players are you talking?

Dryfit and LMP
There has been another player in this game who had somebody mentioned as scummy, but who has kept his RVS vote at that point. Why no mention about this player?

CMAR
If you've put me in the category of players voting SGR for prolonging the RVS, you can read my reason again and put me out of it. Other than that, don't use the 'too scummy to be scum'-fallacy. It's a fallacy for a reason.

CMAR
So, which part of your role PM did you read the first time you saw it?

Pine
You know you're doing something wrong when you vote ABR for 'fishing', while in the end you yourself give in to his 'fishing'.

Soben
So what's your reason for giving reasons for your town-opinions, but keeping most scum-related reasons hidden? Aka, no reasons given in that post for RBT-scum and Implosion-scum.

Waiting before giving more detailed opinions.

[Soben]

So what's your reason for giving reasons for your town-opinions, but keeping most scum-related reasons hidden? Aka, no reasons given in that post for RBT-scum and Implosion-scum.

Simple, witholding reasoning for my FoS at this stage of the game allows me to moniter said players reactions to the FoS. Rices reaction in this case proves that she's following the thread without providing any imput herself solidifying my vote on her. An example of this proving effective is in Newbie 1078 where Tragedy started flailing when reasoning wasn't attached to a FoS on her.

[SnakePlissken]

Oh, and Snake, what does good arrows mean?

It means basically that this is a good shot at a scum (In a non Vig related manner. i.e. that was not in anyway a breadcrumb of any form)

[inHimshallibe]

InHim
No idea what 'tacking onto' means. Stop using expensive words ._.
Other than that, there's a difference between 'agreeing' and 'piggybacking'. And you talked about a possible bus. About which players are you talking?

"tacking on" = "piggybacking"

I agree that there is a difference. However, rule of [number] says there's a good chance one of those "agreeing" is actually scum "piggybacking." It's just easier to isolate a group of three and work from there. Given current circumstances, I'm less liable to lean on that approach for now.

The possible bus: one of {Mana_Ku, chesskid, Katy} bussing SGRaaize. Find that far less likely than before.

[Pine]

The two scummiest players, currently, are Pine and implosion.

Pine, what inconsistencies made you vote for Soben?

Care to explain your reads? I find it ironic (and moderately scummy) that you chastise me for being curt with my vote explanation when you make the above statement without any attempt at justifying it.

As for the inconsistencies, Soben got called on them in the dozen or so posts leading up to my vote. RTFT.

[inHimshallibe]

InHim
No idea what 'tacking onto' means. Stop using expensive words ._.
Other than that, there's a difference between 'agreeing' and 'piggybacking'. And you talked about a possible bus. About which players are you talking?

"tacking on" = "piggybacking"

I agree that there is a difference. However, rule of [number] says there's a good chance one of those "agreeing" is actually scum "piggybacking." It's just easier to isolate a group of three and work from there. Given current circumstances, I'm less liable to lean on that approach for now.

The possible bus: one of {Mana_Ku, chesskid, Katy} bussing SGRaaize.

Find that far less likely than before.

Correction on the red - gandalf is in on that group as well. Too many contingencies to deal with, but gandalf doesn't exactly give me enough warm fuzzies to state the bold as confidently as I originally did.

Of course, that relies on SGRaaize being scum in the first place, which I've backed off the wagon for now.

Mod edit: Correction in another colour.

[Snow_Bunny]

Votecount

1- CryMeARiver

[Healthy]

(0)
2- gandalf5166

[Healthy]

(0) -
3- chesskid3

[Healthy]

(2) - Bunnylover, SGRaaize,
4- Albert B. Rampage

[Healthy]

(0) -
5- Riceballtail

[Healthy]

(1) - Soben
6- Katy

[Healthy]

(0)
7- Bunnylover

[Healthy]

(3) - Zdenek, ABR, Beefster
8- IceyCupcake

[Healthy]

(0)
9- Amrun

[Healthy]

(0)
10- Dry-fit

[Healthy]

(0)
11- SnakePlissken

[Healthy]

(0)
12- WrathChild

[Healthy]

(0) -
13- Soben

[Healthy]

(4) - implosion, Pine, inHimshallibe, SnakePlissken
14- Beefster

[Healthy]

(1) - Riceballtail
15- PeregrineV

[Healthy]

(0)
16- BabySpice

[Healthy]

(0)
17- LynchMePls

[Healthy]

(0)
18- Zdenek

[Healthy]

(0)
19- Mana_Ku

[Healthy]

(1) - CryMeARiver
20- inHimshallibe

[Healthy]

(0) -
21- SGRaaize

[Healthy]

(6) - ManaKu, chesskid3, gandalf5166, Dryfit, LynchMePls, WrathChild
22- implosion

[Healthy]

(2) - Katy, Amrun
23- Feysal

[Healthy]

(0)
24- Pine

[Healthy]

(1) - IceyCupcake

Not voting (3): PeregrineV, BabySpice, Feysal,

With 24 alive, it takes 13 to lynch.

Deadline is on June 9th at midnight (GMT -5)

@inHimshallibe: DO NOT EVER AGAIN USE RED IN ONE OF YOUR POSTS. The same goes to the rest of you. Geez, one of the simplest rules and you can't even follow it right!?

[LimMePls]

With no associative tells to be established how can you say someone is town but still possibly third party?

Roles and factions: This is a rather vanilla-less setup. All factions have a winnable condition. If a win condition is achieved, and it doesn't directly interfere with the win condition of another faction, the game will keep on. For example, if the win condition of a player is to get certain player lynched, should that player achieve that condition (and no other win condition is achieved at the same time), the game can keep on. There is at least one town faction and one scum faction. Town faction is called Sorcerers, while scum faction is called Wizards. Other factions may exist, and they may have wizards, sorcerers, or other classes.

The OP implies multiple third party roles in the setup, Iceys win condition could simply be to recieve x amount of votes during the game thus although I don't see him as scum I have no reason to vote him.

I feel there's some disconnect in reading Icey as Town, realizing that if Icey is indeed some third party with an alt win condition it won't preclude town from a win, and then not following your Town read of Icey by following their plan.

+1

[LimMePls]

@Soben: You know that I'm scum from one post, namely a RVS post? You know... there are two kinds of people in this world: those that can extrapolate data from inconclusive information and...

+scum points for over defensiveness. Also note the insinuation that we can't know RBT is scum from one RVS post, not that we can't know RBT is scum at all.

[LimMePls]

LMP
Why the vote against Wrath, when SGR calls the starting 'attacks' as too serious, suggests to look at somebody else by asking others who that player should be, to suggest Chesskid eventually, whom get finally a vote after some posts from SGR. He went back into the RVS and wanted others to get us out of the RVS. All his flip-flopping would be good for a cheerleading squad ._.

Your question confuses me. I voted WC because he made a post that was essentially "OMG stay in RVS!"

[LimMePls]

Dryfit and LMP
There has been another player in this game who had somebody mentioned as scummy, but who has kept his RVS vote at that point. Why no mention about this player?

Cause I haven't seen it? Care to share?

[SGRaaize]

Oh boy...
Alright, I'l make a super-ultra-overly-deffensive post soon, as well as the promised read on the BW on me (or former BW, I'm not sure).

*Rereads*

[inHimshallibe]

Ouch, completely forgot about red. Will stick with pink.

[IceyCupcake]

I don't particularly like Pine as scum this time around. He might think that I always find him suspicious, but in Camden my job was finding townies suspicious, and in [REDACTED]... come on Pine. That being said, that's the defense you used before. So well etc.

Chesskid, why is your vote on SGRaize? Explanations.

Feysal: Please say something interesting.

LMP: Are you scum?

Soben wagon is giving me bad vibes.

[GreyICE]

[tag]

[SGRaaize]

Let's start with the Over-Deffensive post:

WARNING, WALL OF TEXT WITH META INCOMING

We're literally arguing the exact same thing even by Pine's own admission. In one instance you call it "trying to hard to look Townie" and in the other it's "taking small stuff way too seriously" and you are assigning different levels of scumminess to them. Exactly what in my behavior is 'trying hard to look townie' and how exactly is it different from Pine?

The thing is, my "Way-Too-Serious" read comes from these posts from Pine:

I'm thinking Icey has some kind of ability that can only function against people who have voted for them, or something like that.

Vig please.

As well as:

Extend vig request to include Gandalf, please. WIFOM on page 1 is unappealing.

@Icey: Is GreyICE not a part of the IceyCupcake hydra this time around?

And also:

Not understanding your (quite stupid) schtick is not grounds for ripping off my face.

Vig request retracted, but scum suspicion added on the grounds of overreaction.

In fact, that's why I said this, just after this discussion and before you entered in the frame:

2 pages in and we're already taking this way too seriously.

After that, you entered the frame, voted WC for still trying to go for RVS (Curiously ignoring me, even though I was quoted by WC on the post you quoted doing the exact same thing) and started with the whole "BOO, RVS SUCKS". I didn't suspect Pine as much because Pine agreed with you but didn't seem that bothered about it, plus, he commented before he didn't mind RVS and serious talk "intersphering", so I saw that more as a null-tell than a scum-tell, which is what I saw on you.

Hope that explains it.

Call it arrogance, but I don't think I will be lynched this quick for so little.

^SCUM CAUGHT FOR WRONG REASONS

Nope.jpg
I just know how it goes by now, it has been like this in the past 2 games I played here (SSBB and American Gods or something like that), people start suspecting me for shit I always do (Keep my votes on RVS for a long time, joke around a lot, say uncomprehensible stuff) and I always make a huge fuss over it, get all afraid, and then people smarten up at the last second and go for someone else.

Mark my words, this is happening again, and even if it doesn't happen on its own, bah gawd, I'l make sure I'l save myself or die screaming "I TOLD YOU SO, BITCHEEEEEES"

Part of your problem, SGR, is that Merlin is a WIZARD so you are pretty obv. scum.

Yes, my avatar is also a Evil Wizzard. I guess that means I gamethrew and claimed scum.
Or, it just means I'm joking.

Deal w/ it

Real talk: I wonder how much of this BW is people RL'ing for the sake of a RL, people actually thinking I'm scum, people wanting to see me dead cause I am annoying and people taking this as a chance to go for the easy target.

Why are you "the easy target"?

Hey this looks familiar from when I was scum last game.

Wasn't that the game were people also started a BW on me D1 even though I was town?

Post #34 by SGRaaize - Wow. You're just bad in general, not sure what allignment you are though.

SHDUP

Post #126 by Katy - So SGR is "pretty obv. scum." but you don't vote him? Explain.

Oh, ok, bear in mind at this point, I have no idea who is voting me as a joke and who's voting me because they actually think I'm scum/pretend they are thinking I'm scum, so I'm gonna take everything everyone says VERY SERIOUSLY AT THIS POINT

LMP
Why the vote against Wrath, when SGR calls the starting 'attacks' as too serious, suggests to look at somebody else by asking others who that player should be, to suggest Chesskid eventually, whom get finally a vote after some posts from SGR. He went back into the RVS and wanted others to get us out of the RVS. All his flip-flopping would be good for a cheerleading squad ._.

Yes yes, blabla, meta, yes, yes, I don't usually change my votes, bla, bla, meta meta:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

Go ahead, just read that whole page.

[SGRaaize]

In fact, screw it, just read everything I say on that thread, almost every post on the first pages is me discussing why I don't usually change votes even though I FoS people.

[SGRaaize]

Oh, BTW: On that same game, you can also see I'm wanting a big-ass RVS, just like in here.

I was town in that game.

I hate to go Meta on your asses, but its either that or getting lynched.

[Pine]

21- SGRaaize

[Healthy]

(6) - ManaKu, chesskid3, gandalf5166, Dryfit, LynchMePls, WrathChild

There absolutely has to be scum on this wagon. It built way too quickly and on only mediocre grounds for there not to be. I'm going to do an analysis of how it developed later (though I wouldn't mind if someone else took on the task, busy today, members of the BW need not apply) to see if I can spot the opportunists/bussers.

My read of SGRaaize remains wholly ambivalent. I can see both Town and scum motivations for what he's done so far, none of them strong. If I had to commit, I'd lean a little to the Town side based on the wagon speed.

[LimMePls]

LMP: Are you scum?

Nope.

[SGRaaize]

Alright, now for the BW analyzation I promised:

The first vote on my soon-to-be BW was Katy, she jokingly (I assume) voted me based on the fact I said someone was gonna have to look scummy for this day to truly start. Nothing special, at least as of now.

Ditto for Mana_Ku and Gandalf

Chesskid3 voted me because I voted him, I also assume it was a joke, at least by then. Nothing special here either, a small RVS BW.

Its worth noting LynchMePlz could have joined the BW by now with a great justification (in fact, he used that same justification to vote WC, who had no vote on him), I can't help but feel he's not Town anyways, but a very crafty Mafioso who just wanted to make sure this BW could actually pick up steam for a hammer.

At this point, Chesskid3 tells someone (I think its me) to move the vote, so it can be assumed he's voting me because I still haven't taken the vote away from him, this is fine.

inHimshallibe votes me with no decent justification, at this point, the RVS was over and his vote was kept, I thought that was bullshit, on retrospective, I think inHimshallbe is a good scummy canditate inside my BW.

Dry-Fit votes me next, his justification being that I haven't voted the people I FoS'd and my vote is still on Chesskid3, which I just vote in the RVS stage to joke around, its a justification that is both good and bad from my perspective, good, because I see a Townie being able to use it, bad, because its something very mediocre and not that big of a deal that can be used by a Mafia when the BW ends up hammering on Townie or if the BW ends up not picking steam at all and people start suspecting all involved in it. Either ways, the justification is BS, because, as I stated before, I always do this. Dry-Fit is another good candidate to be scummy, but not as much as inHimshallibe. IMO

LynchMePlz voted here, with remarks on how my FoS'es are inconsistent or whatever, they aren't, I think that he knew at this point this BW was indeed picking steam, and he could safely vote me. The only person I'm almost 100% sure is Mafia in my BW.

Another thing worth noting is that Chesskid3, around this time, unvoted, voted Icey, and then unvoted and voted me, so it means he still wants to vote me and its not him just laying his vote around for the moment. Doesn't mean he's scummy or townie, just worth mentioning.

WC votes me here based on meta and him seeing myself in his shoes when he was Mafia or something like that. The reasoning is BS, but I still think he's townie. He might be a Mafia joining in the BW with a shitty justification in case the BW fails, much like Dry-Fit can be, but based on previous posts by WC, I think he's town.

And now, Mana_Ku, who had voted me based on a joke at the beginning, actually gave justification on her vote, I have basically the same read on her that I have on Dry-Fit, might be townie, but wouldn't be surprised if scum.

So, with that:

People in my BW:

Fairly Positive Town: NO ONE.
Leaning Town: WC
Null: Katy, Mana_Ku, Gandalf, DryFit.
Leaning Scum: InhimshallIbe
Fairly Positive Scum: LynchMePlz

[SGRaaize]

Add Chesskid3 to Null, forgot that guy.