Mini 1140 - Mafia Mishmash...Game Over!!

[subgenius]

P.S. I'm going to be V/LA starting this Thursday and continuing until Sunday evening.

[Maxous]

And again...not a chink in the response to be found.

FYI i certainly did'nt mean to imply your reasoning was "invalid" but I did find it a strange reason to vote for somebody.
Oh, also - just because I beleive somebody to be mafia does'nt mean i will accept all reasoning against them and not question people that are voting for them. As of course..

I could be wrong

. That would just be confirmation bias otherwise ^_^

I do find it amusing that Hinduragi's response will likely end up sinking the town despite me nailing a mafia.(he was probably going to be lynched anyway but whatever). I honestly don't think I could of used my night power much more effectively in this game
The irony is really not lost here :/

Anyway if Vollkan or Regfan have any more specific questions ask away.
Otherwise I have really run out of ideas on how to show you guys that I am indeed telling the truth. I got so little on Sub it's not even funny.

The most I got is the night kill selection and the strategy practicality as mafia(or lack of in my case).

[subgenius]

I do find it amusing that Hinduragi's response will likely end up sinking the town despite me nailing a mafia.(he was probably going to be lynched anyway but whatever). I honestly don't think I could of used my night power much more effectively in this game
The irony is really not lost here

I always feel like a jerk when I call someone on AtE, but I feel like I have to do it anyway. The resignation, talking about how you did your best, etc is fishing for sympathy, and I don't expect Regfan and Vollkan to fall for it.

Anyhow, I don't see myself digging up much more of interest either. I'm happy to answer questions. Hopefully we hear from Regfan this evening.

[vollkan]

1) At the end of D3, did you or did you not think Haylen was more likely scum than not?
2) At the end of D3, did you or did you not want Haylen lynched?
3) If you DID think Haylen was scum, but did not want here lynched, why not?

1) Yes
2) Well, no. I wanted CMAR/Hinduragi lynched. Haylen was my secondary choice however.
3) I was'nt again her lynch per se but was concerned at the reasoning given. I thought if she was town mafia might of been taking advantage for an easy mislynch. Ironically the main one was Subgenius(hence the questioning) Read this again.

Since we are running out of material to discuss, I will add that I really can't understand the reasoning in 3).

To whatever extent she might have appeared an "easy lynch" it could only have been a combination of Yura's transparently newb-scum play + Haylen's own scumminess + her impossible roleclaim. This is very different to an "easy lynch" in the sense of, say, pushing a wagon on a player who is bad at defending themselves - because Haylen was genuinely extremely scummy.

I can understand why you might have misunderstood SubG's attack that you link (though, as I said at the time, I thought SubG made sense), but it baffles me why you'd see that as a reason playing against Haylen's lynch, given her own scumminess and, of course, the prospect that it was simply SubG-scum trying to come up with a semi-original angle to improve his bussing of Haylen.

[vollkan]

I do find it amusing that Hinduragi's response will likely end up sinking the town despite me nailing a mafia.(he was probably going to be lynched anyway but whatever). I honestly don't think I could of used my night power much more effectively in this game
The irony is really not lost here

I always feel like a jerk when I call someone on AtE, but I feel like I have to do it anyway. The resignation, talking about how you did your best, etc is fishing for sympathy, and I don't expect Regfan and Vollkan to fall for it.

I'm not going to "fall for it", though I also don't see it as a scumtell in this case. If I approach it without an a priori assumption that Maxous is scum, I can see why he'd feel that way as town.

[subgenius]

I agree that it's not a scum tell, but I'd hate for anyone to see it as a town tell.

[Regfan]

The only time he deviated from this was the time he saw a chance to get suspicion away from CMAR. (Scott noticed this and started to suspect Subgenius for it. This was actually all forgotten in the mist of busting Haylen and Scott's elimination afterwards. This is clearly the reason why Scott was killed over Bgg, Scott would'nt of forgotten that)

1.This is an incredibly awful point, because although he deviated for half a second he never showed intent to voting elsewhere, scum have no reason to stop 'bussing' their partner merely to poke elsewhere especially when they know the likelihood that their partner gets lynched is incredibly high.

If you guys are more willing to beleive that myself as mafia night killed the people more inclined to beleive me in LYLO, fake claimed a power role, argued against the set-up speculation reasoning during Haylen's lynch inviting the suspicion on me, cleared Regfan as a gambit on Day 3(him being a realistic mislynch), cleared Vollkan as a gambit(reducing the lynch options to myself and Subgenius), suggested there was only 2 mafia as a deliberate misleading town tell, gloated and suggested myself as bussing Hinduragi in a derisory way to pour cold water on it, and whatever else you guys think I gambited on - simply to create a motherlode of WIFOM to bring into a deliberate one vs one confrontation against a very pro-town looking player then you guys are over-complicating things here.

2A. This is just as bad an argument, you had already stated several times you beleived I was town before this position meaning 'not clearing me' wouldn't mean that you would be able to get me lynched at all.

2B. The second you claimed RB as your third power a player was going to be cleared regardless, sure you might argue that 'I wouldn't fake RB as it clears someone' but the fact of the matter is majority of other JOAT powers had already been taken via the deaths.

This is an incredibly tough spot, as much as I hate it, I have a horrible feeling that I'm going to end up voting wrong. Logic seems to be pointing towards it being a buss. Ugh, Volkan, what's running through your head right now?

[vollkan]

1.This is an incredibly awful point, because although he deviated for half a second he never showed intent to voting elsewhere, scum have no reason to stop 'bussing' their partner merely to poke elsewhere especially when they know the likelihood that their partner gets lynched is incredibly high.

SubG's argument that the wagon's speed indicated scum was weak. However, I agree it couldn't realistically have been an attempt to dissuade the wagon. First, because (as you note) SubG never showed any intention to push elsewhere.

But also because, looking at the substance of SubG's argument again, I seriously doubt he could have even entertained any hope that it would stop CMAR getting lynched. If scum are going to try and derail a wagon, they need to do it effectively. Thus, if that was SubG's intention, you'd expect him to have actually either argued against CMAR's lynch or, alternatively, jumped to another candidate. I accept that SubG-scum would have had good reason to want to stall the wagon on CMAR - but in the circumstances, I don't think he would have judged a temporary stall as outweighing the risk that he would come under suspicion for it.

The wagon did build up quickly, even though, as I pointed out, if you took a more complex view and looked at its history, it wouldn't look so sudden.

This is an incredibly tough spot, as much as I hate it, I have a horrible feeling that I'm going to end up voting wrong. Logic seems to be pointing towards it being a buss. Ugh, Volkan, what's running through your head right now?

At the risk of repeating myself, it's a difficult situation because neither of them has played scummily (in the sense that I'd award points for). Instead, it's basically a much more WIFOM-riddled question of determining whose play is

more plausible

as scum and/or

less plausible as town

. For somebody like me who has a very strict definition of what a scumtell is, it's uncomfortable terrain.

All that being said, I think the discussion today has shown, there is more in Maxous's play both of conduct which makes sense as plausible scum play and which is less plausible as town play. The difference between him and SubG is so slight that I still feel like I'd be able to be persuaded either way, but given the clear lack of any smoking gun on either of them, I don't think that's likely.

[Maxous]

I was'nt going for a AtE. I was simply being honest that I don't have any more ideas on how to go about this. (I would'nt of expected Vollkan and Regfan to fall for such a ruse. Heart of glass ;_;)
I said nothing about resignation..Subgenius is mafia and I want him lynched.
I'm going to sound like a broken record at this stage but if a townie is night killed instead of a confirmed town

then there is a reason for it.

Nine times out of 10 the reason is that the confirmed town was on the wrong track. Otherwise the mafia would kill the confirmed town and nobody can pin WIFOM on them since the kill was obvious.
=> Myself and Regfan was/is the wrong track!

To whatever extent she might have appeared an "easy lynch" it could only have been a combination of Yura's transparently newb-scum play + Haylen's own scumminess + her impossible roleclaim. This is very different to an "easy lynch" in the sense of, say, pushing a wagon on a player who is bad at defending themselves - because Haylen was genuinely extremely scummy.

Bleh, that would of been fine if the reason for the lynch was 'Haylen is scummy'.
The actual reason was 'I don't think the mod would of put in a re-director so let's lynch her'
I did not realise how strict the rules were and thought exceptions were allowed since they said weak doctor and sledgehammer was an exception so it did'nt make sense to me at the time. I explained this in Day 4.
And yes okay, I should of properly checked first before posting. Learned my lesson :/

1.This is an incredibly awful point, because although he deviated for half a second he never showed intent to voting elsewhere

He said something to the effect of working off the assumption that the people suspecting CMAR are mafia.
That's as good as.

2A. This is just as bad an argument, you had already stated several times you beleived I was town before this position meaning 'not clearing me' wouldn't mean that you would be able to get me lynched at all.

Huh?
I stated a couple of times my beleive of yourself being mafia late Day 2 and then compeltely stopped on Day 3.
So if I was hypotetically making this up I would of had to of planned it Night 2 at the earliest. Hence the removing mislynch etc etc

2B. The second you claimed RB as your third power a player was going to be cleared regardless

The point is I that

I claimed RB in the first place.

[subgenius]

I'm going to sound like a broken record at this stage but if a townie is night killed instead of a confirmed town then there is a reason for it. Nine times out of 10 the reason is that the confirmed town was on the wrong track. Otherwise the mafia would kill the confirmed town and nobody can pin WIFOM on them since the kill was obvious.

This is as WIFOM'y as it gets. I think SB would have made a good NK choice regardless of who the scum team actually was. He had made aggressive accusations against CMAR, Vollkan, Haylen, and myself. He brought a lot of energy to the town and was actively scum hunting while the rest of us were stuck in the doldrums. Not to mention, it's plausible that you and Hindu decided to kill him to set up a NK based case against whoever between Vollkan or myself ended up being the primary suspect, knowing that you were planning to clear Regfan. There's no telling why SB was killed, and there are several plausible explanations.

I did not realise how strict the rules were and thought exceptions were allowed since they said weak doctor and sledgehammer was an exception so it did'nt make sense to me at the time.

The post in which you defended Haylen was immediately after my post where I quoted which unusual roles were allowed. I pointed out that re-director was not included in that list. Weak doctor and sledgehammer were allowed. I guess you chose to ignore that, though.

[vollkan]

Bleh, that would of been fine if the reason for the lynch was 'Haylen is scummy'.
The actual reason was 'I don't think the mod would of put in a re-director so let's lynch her'
I did not realise how strict the rules were and thought exceptions were allowed since they said weak doctor and sledgehammer was an exception so it did'nt make sense to me at the time. I explained this in Day 4.

As SubG has said, the rules had already been quoted. Even if you didn't agree with the lynch, calling it an "easy lynch" is extreme.

I'd also add that whilst it's true that the Normal Guidelines were the immediate cause of Haylen being lynched, keep in mind that she was only in that position to begin with because people thought she was scummy enough that she was forced to claim. So, it was really the case that most people wanted her to be lynched, then she claimed and temporarily stalled the lynch, but then the claim was refuted, making the case against her even stronger.

[Regfan]

Deadline is in two days, in other words we need to come up with a decision quite soon becuase last thing I want is for this to go down to a three-way lylo.

With that said, I'm going to do a massive re-read through Maxous and Subgenius's arguments tommorow as I have the day off.

[Maxous]

This is as WIFOM'y as it gets. I think SB would have made a good NK choice regardless of who the scum team actually was. He had made aggressive accusations against CMAR, Vollkan, Haylen, and myself. He brought a lot of energy to the town and was actively scum hunting while the rest of us were stuck in the doldrums. Not to mention, it's plausible that you and Hindu decided to kill him to set up a NK based case against whoever between Vollkan or myself ended up being the primary suspect, knowing that you were planning to clear Regfan. There's no telling why SB was killed, and there are several plausible explanations.

Stuck in the doldrums?
And yeah, agressive accusations against

other

people..

As for the NK case..that would be more plausible if I came up with it right away instead of leaving it so late(I did'nt think of it for ages unfortunatly ¬_¬) instead of.. you know bringing it up straight away after the kill.
That is how a mafia does a NK case. It is because thay are already thinking of the implications of the kill when they make it.
I actually wish I thought of half of this stuff at the start..might of made things smoother >_>

So, it was really the case that most people wanted her to be lynched, then she claimed and temporarily stalled the lynch, but then the claim was refuted, making the case against her even stronger.

That's really not how it came across to me but I'll digress.
Wheter or not I was correct is'nt important..it's that my intenions were

so obviously

genuine :p

Anyway we're definitly going around in circles at this stage..getting a bit weary of it to be honest -.-

[subgenius]

Stuck in the doldrums?

Yes, there was no direction and no new scum hunting going on. People were only discussing lynch vs no lynch and how to use power roles. I can't be the only one who thought the game felt stuck at the time.

And yeah, agressive accusations against other people..

Other people at the time, but he was in the game for only half a day and raised suspicions against 4 separate players. He wasn't exactly tunneling in on anyone, and he was clearly more than willing to move on to new fos's. While he was the only one to raise an FoS at me, it wasn't as if he was leading a crusade dead set on getting me lynched. Admittedly, there would be a slight motivation to kill SB if I was scum, but it wouldn't be especially strong, and there would be reasons to kill him if you were scum as well. I just don't see this SB NK as a particularly strong piece of evidence. SB would have made a good NK regardless of who was scum. He was simply a really good town player. You have a point, I just think it's a weak one, and I don't think it would be enough to sway me if I were looking at this from a neutral perspective.

As for the NK case..that would be more plausible if I came up with it right away instead of leaving it so late(I did'nt think of it for ages unfortunatly ¬_¬) instead of.. you know bringing it up straight away after the kill.
That is how a mafia does a NK case. It is because thay are already thinking of the implications of the kill when they make it.
I actually wish I thought of half of this stuff at the start..might of made things smoother >_>

You might notice that my points have been made in roughly reverse chronological order. My first points were made based on the most recent events, because they were freshest in my mind. I mentioned the NK early because it was one of the most recent facts to be revealed, and I was still forming fresh thoughts on it. The NK point was weak, and I think pretty clearly the product of me brainstorming about the game as I received new facts. I tried to find a reason for a strange NK, and I failed, and I still have no explanation for it.

[vollkan]

That's really not how it came across to me but I'll digress.

How did it come across to you?

I can't understand how you could have possibly thought that Haylen had been forced to the position she was in without being under suspicion. Hell, you had quite a few posts partly criticising the Yura case, then you voted Yura yourself in ISO29 and ISO41,

Wheter or not I was correct is'nt important..it's that my intenions were so obviously genuine :p

Obviously

[Maxous]

How did it come across to you?

..fine >.<

Scott's top suspects - Not Haylen.
Regfan. - Haylen was on his lynch list, he also said his preference was CMAR.
Subgenius - Intended to vote those people. No Haylen.
Bgg - Thought she was town.

3 of the 4 did'nt claim to want her lynched just before the revealation and even the 4'th said he would prefer CMAR.
That is why it was'nt a "Haylen is scummy" lynch regardless of the previous suspicion that forced her to claim in the first place. The sudden switch of 'oh this role is probably not in the game so let's lynch her' was based on her claim and the rules, not her actions. (with the exception of Regfan)
And as I mentioned in that post - her claim was not preventing her from being lynched. We all agreed if we beleived she was mafia at the end of the day then she would get lynched.

So yes it was set-up speculation based...which I argued against.
I thought a mafia might of been jumping on easily and Sub's votes still looks weird to me (for obvious reasons now).
This was Haylen first reaction. In hindsight, yes she was fake-claiming but why would you expect outrage and frustration from the player instead of simply saying 'you do realise one or two non-normal roles are allowed'. Of course you would explain how your role is allowed based on your understanding of the rules. Particulary if you have moderated a game before.
I thought it was weird at the time and yeah in hindsight he really looked for any excuse he could to jump on that Haylen bandwagon as soon as trouble started.

[Regfan]

Deadline is in five hours, and I'd rather end this today and not have it go to a three-way. Volkan, I've said it earlier and I still mean it I will defer to your judgement if you feel even slightly confident in either vote, until then I feel forced to stick with my inital thoughts, that being that Maxous's claim is indeed legitimate.

The main reason I believe his claim is legitimate is due to the fact that he DID indeed back of and halt all suspicion cast towards me on day three which doesn't exactly make sense from a mafia standpoint. That being that it was fairly obvious to them that CMAR's slot was going to get lynched at one point during the game and I was pushing Andrews lynch so strongly that it prevented CMAR's lynch going through on day two. I see no reason for mafia to close of a possible push for a msylnch in this scenario.

For him to be mafia, he would have had to have planned this fake claim on night two at which point CMAR and Haylen had already claimed power-roles. I'm very hesitant in believing that all three of the mafia planned to fake-claim power roles that early into the game thus:

Vote: Subgenius

[vollkan]

Deadline is in five hours, and I'd rather end this today and not have it go to a three-way. Volkan, I've said it earlier and I still mean it I will defer to your judgement if you feel even slightly confident in either vote, until then I feel forced to stick with my inital thoughts, that being that Maxous's claim is indeed legitimate.

That's okay. Since I'm scum, I'm happy to defer to

your

judgment - because I know it's wrong

Vote: Subgenius

GOOD GAME.

-------------
I expect you're all wondering what the hell happened.

Basically, I am Mafia Roleblocker.

Last night, I roleblocked Maxous. It appears that the mod is using the version of Night Action Resolution under which two Roleblockers cancel each other out. As such, the kill I submitted on Scott was able to go through. This is highly unusual (and I intended on starting a MD thread addressing this issue), but not (as far as I know) technically non-normal

[Regfan]

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.

Good game Vollkan, you played well just a frustrating way to lose.

[havingfitz]

Final Votecount

subgenius - 3 (Maxous, Regfan, vollkan)

Maxous - 1 (subgenius)

Subgenius has been lynched. He was

Vanilla Town.

Maxous is Endgamed. He was

Town Jack of All Trades.

Regfan is Endgamed. He was

Vanilla Town.

Vollkan (Mafia Roleblocker), Hinduragi (Mafia Goon) and Haylen (Mafia Godfather) Win!

More info to follow....

---

Role PMs

Sent to Scott Brosius

curiouskarmadog

, subgenius, bgg1996, Regfan, pappums rat

Hi. Welcome to Mafia Mishmash. Please see your role PM below:

Rolename: You are a Vanilla Townie

Abilities: Each day you may discuss with your fellow players and vote to lynch someone. You have no other special powers.

Win condition: You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

Please confirm to me via PM stating your role name. Thanks.

Sent to tclawren

Hi. Welcome to Mafia Mishmash. Please see your role PM below:

Rolename: Vanilla Townie Sledgehammer.

Abilities: Each day you may discuss with your fellow players and vote to lynch someone. Any day in which you place the deciding vote (i.e. hammer) you will be safe from NKs. This does not apply to days ending in a no-lynch majority vote.

Win condition: You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

Please confirm to me via PM stating your role name. Thanks.

Sent to Surprise_Carcinogen

Hi. Welcome to Mafia Mishmash. Please see your role PM below:

Rolename: Town Cop.

Abilities: Each day you may discuss with your fellow players and vote to lynch someone. Each night you can elect to PM the mod the name of one player to investigate. At the start of the following day phase you will receive a result of either "innocent" or "guilty" on the player you investigated that evening. Your result may or may not be accurate.

Win condition: You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

Please confirm to me via PM stating your role name. Thanks.

Sent to Maxous

Hi. Welcome to Mafia Mishmash. Please see your role PM below:

Rolename: Town Jack of All Trades.

Abilities: Each day you may discuss with your fellow players and vote to lynch someone. Each night you can elect to use one of your abilities. Their use is not mandatory and you may use each ability only once. Once all abilities are used your only remaining ability will be your vote. PM the mod which of the abilities below you wish to use and who the target is if you choose to use one.

1) Tracker - You may target a player at night and learn who, if anybody, that player targeted the same night (but not the action the player performed).

2) Roleblocker - You may select a player to roleblock. This will prevent them from carrying out any night action if they have one.

3 ) Gunsmith - You can check one player and find out whether that player has a gun.

Win condition: You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

Please confirm to me via PM stating your role name. Thanks.

Sent to Magnetic

Hi. Welcome to Mafia Mishmash. Please see your role PM below:

Rolename: Town Weak Doctor.

Abilities: Each day you may discuss with your fellow players and vote to lynch someone. Each night you may elect to PM the mod the name of one player that is not yourself whom you would like to protect from nightkills. If the player is targetted by more than one killing role your protection will not be successful. If the player you protect is not a pro-town role, you will die.

Win condition: You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

Please confirm to me via PM stating your role name. Thanks.

Sent to andrew94

Hi. Welcome to Mafia Mishmash. Please see your role PM below:

Role name: Serial killer

Abilities: You are bulletproof. You may submit a kill via PM each night. If you fail to submit a kill during Night a serial kill will not occur.

Win condition: You win when your number is equal to or greater than the number of Town and Mafia members. Not the combined total but that of each.

Please confirm to me via PM stating your role name. Thanks.

Sent to Hinduragi

CryMeARiver Truant

Hi. Welcome to Mafia Mishmash. Please see your role PM below:

Role name: Mafia Goon

Group Abilities: The Mafia Family is: yura-chi and volkan. Each Night, one member of your group may attempt to murder one player. The Mafia Family may communicate at Night using the following Quicktopic: QT

You may chat in the quicktopic during pre game.

Abilities: You have no additional abilities.

Win condition: You win when your number is equal to or greater than the number of Town members, and you’ve eliminated any other potential threats to your existence.

Please confirm to me via PM stating your role name. Thanks.

Sent to Vollkan

Hi. Welcome to Mafia Mishmash. Please see your role PM below:

Role name: Mafia Roleblocker

Group Abilities: The Mafia Family is: Truant and yura-chi. Each Night, one member of your group may attempt to murder one player. The Mafia Family may communicate at Night using the following Quicktopic: QT

You may chat in the quicktopic during pre game.

Abilities: You may select a player to roleblock each night, as long as you are still alive. This will prevent them from carrying out any night action if they happen to have one. You may not submit the mafia kill and RB at the same time unless you are the last remaining mafia team member.

Win condition: You win when your number is equal to or greater than the number of Town members, and you’ve eliminated any other potential threats to your existence.

Please confirm to me via PM stating your role name. Thanks.

Sent to Haylen

yura-chi

Hi. Welcome to Mafia Mishmash. Please see your role PM below:

Role name: Mafia Godfather

Group Abilities: The Mafia Family is: Truant and volkan. Each Night, one member of your group may attempt to murder one player. The Mafia Family may communicate at Night using the following Quicktopic: QT

You may chat in the quicktopic during pre game.

Abilities: You are immune from investigation.

Win condition: You win when your number is equal to or greater than the number of Town members, and you’ve eliminated any other potential threats to your existence.

Please confirm to me via PM stating your role name. Thanks.

---

Night Actions

Night one:
Surprise_Carcinogen investigated bgg1996 (Received "Innocent")
Vollkan roleblocked curiouskarmadog (Successful)
yura-chi submitted kill on pappums rat (Successful)
andrew94 submitted kill on tclawren (Successful)

Night two:
Maxous used 1-shot gunsmith on Regfan (Received "No gun")
Surprise_Carcinogen investigated CryMeARiver (n/a due to NK)
Vollkan roleblocked Regfan (Successful)
CryMeARiver submitted kill on Surprise_Carcinogen (Successful)

Night three:
Vollkan roleblocked Regfan (Successful)
Hinduragi submitted kill on Scott Brosius (Successful)
Maxous used 1-shot tracker on Hinduragi (Received "Tracked Scott Brosius)

Night four:
Maxous used 1-shot roleblock on Vollkan (Successful/offset)
Vollkan roleblocked Maxous (Successful/offset)
Vollkan submitted kill on bgg1996 (Successful)

[Regfan]

I learned a lot this game, and for the most part found it quite enjoyable. I'll have more thoughts later, still quite frustrated. I spend endless hours re-reading the Maxous and Subgenius all for nothing.

Havingfitz, you need to state what night resolution actions you're using in the ruleset in the future, I'll refrain from stating any other words for now.

[vollkan]

Question for the townies:

When you decided that I was confirmed town (whether you were alive at the time, or just reading along), was it because you didn't consider the prospect of me being Mafia RB, or was it because you assumed that, even if I was Mafia RB, my kill would have been blocked?

The reason I am asking is that if people are assuming that RBs don't cancel each other out (ie. they both RB each other, which would have caused my kill to also be RBed), then that's something that probably has to be explicitly required as part of the Normal Guidelines (or it needs to be made clear in the Guidelines that various possibilities are open). I don't think that the non-cancellation view is logically better than the cancellation view, but I do think that players need to know EXACTLY the way that night actions will resolve.

[vollkan]

EBWOP: By "need to know EXACTLY" I am including a situation where players are made aware of a number of possibilities. The point is just that they shouldn't need to scour through past MD threads (like I did after seeing my kill go through; I honestly thought it was game over) to realise that RB vs RB is actually a debated topic.

[Regfan]

Question for the townies:

When you decided that I was confirmed town (whether you were alive at the time, or just reading along), was it because you didn't consider the prospect of me being Mafia RB, or was it because you assumed that, even if I was Mafia RB, my kill would have been blocked?

The reason I am asking is that if people are assuming that RBs don't cancel each other out (ie. they both RB each other, which would have caused my kill to also be RBed), then that's something that probably has to be explicitly required as part of the Normal Guidelines (or it needs to be made clear in the Guidelines that various possibilities are open). I don't think that the non-cancellation view is logically better than the cancellation view, but I do think that players need to know EXACTLY the way that night actions will resolve.

I actually considered the possibilty of you being a roleblocker as soon as the started becuase I had town reads on both of them, read through the rules multiple times, hunted through past threads and found nothing so I just assumed RB vs RB would mean no kill.

[havingfitz]

Good game everyone.

I really thought it was going to wind up as a town win until things worked out the way they did N4. Vollkan's early scumpartners did not do anything to make it easy on him but he himself was never really considered a suspect (except from curiouskarmadog and his replacement Scott Brosius).

Unfortunate for town that circumstances evolved in the only way possible to keep suspicion off Vollkan. If any other scum is the last one remaining there is no mafia RB to protect them or if Maxous doesn't skip N1 and uses his 1-shot actions the first three nights instead OR in any other order who knows how things turn out.

The fact two roleblockers were included never came up as a potential issue in the pre-game review. D4 it became obvious there was a good chance they would be pointed at each other on N4. I felt the RBs..if pointed at each other...would cancel each other out and in N4 discussions with the reviewers that was acknowledged as the appropriate course of action.

I don't think there was anything out of the ordinary with regard to the Night Action Resolution. I followed the one on the wiki. Is this something that is typically included in rulesets? It wasn't until it became apparent the RBs were going to point to each other did that situation become apparent so there was no foreseen need to explicitly clarify any specific scenarios of Night Action Resolution.

If anyone had asked me a hypothetical RB vs RB question in the thread I would have provided clarification.

As this was my first game modding, any comments directed my way are welcome.


Dead QT

Scum can post their QT.