Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den - Endgame

[Pine]

I've used my (weak) attack power on IceyCupcake. I encourage everyone who is (wisely) fearful of their waffling between Town-neutral third-party and anti-Town scumminess to do the same.

[Amrun]

Beefster, are you kidding me? If you think that's why I'm coting for Pine, then you're hiffing glue. And I have been in B-Mod game where the mod said it was theoretically possible for hydras to have diff roles. Is it likely? Of course not. But the hydra just said they have different roles, so asking for clarification is in order.

I asked you a question, Beefster. I see you dodging it, though.

While nothing more needs to be said about Beefster's obviously nothing-of-substance attacks on me, I'm commenting to confirm what I suspected at first. If Pine flips scum, this is a blatant chainsaw by Beefster.

[Zdenek]

A few quick comments, and I'll try to make a proper post tomorrow.

Zdenek is not reading the thread.
1) I very, very clearly explained why I didn't want to vote for Icey.
2) I misunderstood Gandalf, and once it was explained, retracted it for that reason.
3) I don't know whether CMAR slipped. That could go either way. If it was a slip, it was well-recovered because I can't tell. That's why I was waffling on joining the wagon. If I were scum, I wouldn't have TOLD you that I was uncertain and waffling.
4) The posts were bare minutes apart, following only a few minutes behind the relevant post by Soben. We actually had the same reaction at the same time, and mine goes into greater analysis, which explains the longer writing time.
5) Look at it again. SCR mentioned a couple "slightly Town" reads at best and a whole lot of scum reads on his wagon. It was blatant, self-serving OMGUS.

Pay attention. All of these things were already-stated and/or obvious.

1. That is hardly my point, but I can kind of understand what you are getting at.

2. I don't care that you retracted your vig request for a reason. It was a bad request to make in the first place.

3. I think that is one of the things scum would do.

4. I don't care.

5. So you're changing what you think is the "red flag?"

Care to explain which scumslip you're referring to?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p3056366

PINE IS OBV MISLYNCH BAIT

Why and what made you change your mind so drastically later (just that he removed the game from his bookmarks)?

B-Mod game where the mod said it was theoretically possible for hydras to have diff roles.

Link please.

I've used my (weak) attack power on IceyCupcake. I encourage everyone who is (wisely) fearful of their waffling between Town-neutral third-party and anti-Town scumminess to do the same.

So you are arguing that we should collectively vig people who we are waffling on rather than people who's play demonstrates that they are anti-town?

[gandalf5166]

@Zdenek: The fact that he's sticking to his guns beyond logic(yes, I think scum are more likely to do that than town) and yes, the fact, that he stopped posting when he was put under pressure. Scum are most likely to slip up when they're emotionally invested, so they have every motivation not to post when they start getting angry. I do NOT see why town would stop posting just because they were mad.

[Snow_Bunny]

Votecount

1- CryMeARiver

[Healthy]

(0)
2- gandalf5166

[Healthy]

(1) - inHimshallibe
3- chesskid3

[Healthy]

(1) - Bunnylover
4- Albert B. Rampage

[Healthy]

(1) - Pine
5- Riceballtail

[Healthy]

(1) - Soben
6- Katy

[Healthy]

(0)
7- Bunnylover

[Healthy]

(0) -
8- IceyCupcake

[Healthy]

(0)
9- Amrun

[Healthy]

(2) - Beefster, chesskid3
10- Dry-fit

[Healthy]

(0)
11- SnakePlissken

[Healthy]

(0)
12- WrathChild

[Healthy]

(0) -
13- Soben

[Healthy]

(2) - implosion, SnakePlissken
14- Beefster

[Healthy]

(1) - Riceballtail
15- PeregrineV

[Healthy]

(0)
16- BabySpice

[Healthy]

(0)
17- LynchMePls

[Healthy]

(0) -
18- Zdenek

[Healthy]

(0)
19- Mana_Ku

[Healthy]

(1) - CryMeARiver
20- inHimshallibe

[Healthy]

(0) -
21- SGRaaize

[Healthy]

(3) - Dryfit, LynchMePls, WrathChild,
22- implosion

[Healthy]

(1) - Katy,
23- Feysal

[Healthy]

(0)
24- Pine

[Healthy]

(6) - Zdenek, SGRaaize, Amrun, gandalf5166, BabySpice, ABR

Not voting (3): PeregrineV, Feysal, ManaKu, IceyCupcake

With 24 alive, it takes 13 to lynch.

Deadline is on June 9th at midnight (GMT -5)

@Beefster: those are ok.

[Amrun]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 01&start=0

The game is ongoing, but this has nothing to do with gameplay itself.

The mod said this somewhere in the bowels of the thread, which is 100 pages and going strong. Good luck finding it, because I'm not even going to try. The game in question isn't important. I wouldn't have asked the hydras if they had different roles if one of them hadn't blatantly stated that they do.

[IceyCupcake]

Icey: One head?! Which head?! Your heads have different roles?

Anyone who has played with GI before knows that he is naturally a jester by default.

[Amrun]

Icey: One head?! Which head?! Your heads have different roles?

Anyone who has played with GI before knows that he is naturally a jester by default.

What is this I don't even

[gandalf5166]

Icey: One head?! Which head?! Your heads have different roles?

Anyone who has played with GI before knows that he is naturally a jester by default.

What is this I don't even

Have you played with GI? It's true.

[Amrun]

I have. Several times, in fact. We get along splendidly.

Either way, how that makes claiming one head is a jester okay is beyond me.

[IceyCupcake]

I have. Several times, in fact. We get along splendidly.

Either way, how that makes claiming one head is a jester okay is beyond me.

Katsuki is learning by example.

We're not a Jester

[chesskid3]

V/LA till monday and stuff

[Katy]

Katy: How are Pine's huge piles of AtE making you think town?!

I don't know what AtE is. I just know my own experience which is that whenever anyone freaks out on day one over a game issue like this and draws a bunch of attention and a lynch, it's been a mislynch. Maybe this will be the day that find out I'm wrong, but I trust my own experience over acronyms or other people simply telling me I am wrong.

[Beefster]

Beefster, want to explain how the logic of my one post is circular, and then how that makes you so sure I'm scum?

Didn't see this one. It was hiding quite nicely under a vote D:. My bad.

This

In a more general sense, why has no one but chess addressed ABR's plan to mass-attack one scummy player at night? It could even be modified to "attack whichever of the following players X, Y, and Z are scummiest to you," which would take care of protection problems that chess proposed. However, that makes it less immediately effective but probably more effective long-term. Possible drawback: if one of those players is town, it might give scum an advantage as they could add their attacks in.

I think ABR's proposition should have received more attention than it has. Is protection really an issue against the whole town's attacks? I don't know how protection would function in this game, and I did not play and have not read its predecessors, so perhaps someone who has should weigh in.

This part is a bit WIFOM-y. It kinda traces around to itself.

I suppose it looked more circular when I was skimming through. At first glance it looks like the logic is all over the place since you then change your vote as if you were retracting something in the middle of the post.

I'm still suspicious of your reactions, so I will keep my vote where it is.

[Amrun]

Kind of like you did in the following posts, the first of which is the one in which you vote me for the first time?

Amrun's post here is a mess of circular logic.

Unvote

VOTE: Amrun
-----

People in my BW:

Fairly Positive Town: NO ONE.
Leaning Town: WC
Null: Katy, Mana_Ku, Gandalf, DryFit. and chesskid
Leaning Scum: InhimshallIbe
Fairly Positive Scum: LynchMePlz

I'm not a big fan of lots of null reads like this- It's understandable that you can't exactly trust everyone, but it seems like you're trying to be too conservative with your accusations- so you avoid getting accused of inconsistency. Plus your analyzing your own wagon, meaning you're biased.
*Weak defense*

What? I thought you voted me before I voted you.
This changes EVERYTHING.

honestly i have no idea which order it came in, nor does it matter

*Trivially conditional accusations*

Oh, BTW: On that same game, you can also see I'm wanting a big-ass RVS, just like in here.

I was town in that game.

I hate to go Meta on your asses, but its either that or getting lynched.

Why so defensive? You're just over halfway toward being lynched. If you're town, you have nothing to lose at this point, nor is there a risk. If you had kept your cool, this would have resolved itself soon. But since you're so keen on defending yourself way before it's necessary...
*Overreaction*

That's three strikes.

Unvote

VOTE: SGR

Why so defensive? You're just over halfway toward being lynched.

Because I am over-defensive as Town and there's nothing I hate more than being lynched.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

More meta.

This post looks genuinely townie to me. A scum response would have been more subtle.

Unvote

Responses noted. No further questions.

VOTE: Bunnylover

Unvote

VOTE: Icey

Unvote

VOTE: Amrun

This is a fun way to FoS

Just as I thought, Beefster, you had no real reason to think my logic was circular and no real reason to think I was scummy based off of that post, which makes it much more likely to be a chainsaw. In the very least, it is a bad and scummy attack.

Even if I had voted for two people in the same post because I thought they were both scum, that's not circular logic. It sounds to me like you were just throwing out a fancy word with no idea how to actually prove it in an attempt to discredit me. For what reason, I don't know, but as I said, it could be a chainsaw for either Pine or implosion. Pine is more likely after the repeat behavior.


Katy: AtE is Appeal to Emotion, for future reference.

[Soben]

Soben: Do your heads have different roles?

No. We do not.

[Feysal]

Woo-hoo, caught up with the thread. The game slowing down somewhat is good for my sanity.

@Feysal: Lemme summarize the content of your posts that is not setup speculation, fluff, or nonsense:

You bring a smile on my face. You embarrassed yourself in my eyes in Storm of Swords, and you're not impressing me with your play this time either. Let me show you what is wrong with your post.

Firstly, I have not speculated on the setup

at all

. I have spoken of the need to organize the town, so we can avoid the game lapsing into a shooting spree. No one who has experienced the town-on-town bloodbath of Mafia Holographica wants a repeat of that, and the fact that damaging attacks were public in that game did not deter the players. I do

not

want to see half the playerlist wounded by tomorrow morning due to town infighting.

Secondly, I disagree on my posts containing fluff. I'll grant you that it was not necessary to mention that I'm keeping notes in QuickTopic, but the real meaning of what I said is that I have more reads I have not elaborated on, and I will do so if and when I need to.

Thirdly... if you're going to assert that I post nonsense, I would prefer you to name specific instances and explain why you think they are nonsense.

- CMAR is town because of the ASOS "am I scum?" thing
- You're keeping an eye on LMP because meta

That's it. That's everything you've said.

Hardly. In particular you seem to have ignored the suspects I mentioned in my second post.

Seriously, I'm the one whose probably learning more in this hydra.

She controls our vote. She has more experience. Me? I'm here for the ride. And to make fun of scum chesskid, 'cause he's really obvious.

Say what? You deferring to Katsuki does not exactly inspire confidence in your slot's posts, because... well...

Hang on, I'll try to think of some way of saying this without insulting either of you. Umm... I'll get back to you if I come up with something.

That was fun. On to something more to the point:

Just had an extremely detailed chat with my other head about our reads and he now agrees that ISO #4 by ABR is actually an incredibly strong town-tell, we don't see him openely stating that he has 'multiple killing abilities' as mafia.

I agree completely, and I'm glad someone is making sense. Listening to so many people suspect ABR for rolefishing without thinking it through was really getting old. Then again, there could easily be scum among them, particularly if someone was so cautious they did not even vote. I'll need to keep an eye out when I reread.

At the moment ABR is the most solid town read I've got, for two reasons. One was post #67, where ABR said that his role suggests everyone has a damaging ability. That of course includes himself. There's no way I'd believe that scum would admit having killing abilities less than three hours into the first day, unless they really knew that town would have such abilities, and I can't see how they could possibly be that sure. The second reason was post #98, the same one Soben mentioned, but what I found interesting was his confusion about whether he was town, the same as with CMAR. I don't think scum could be confused about their faction, since their role would contain the names of their partners. The four people who said they were confused in Storm of Swords all being town only adds to my confidence in this read.

There were two others I noticed who said they'd been confused, Soben in post #169 and Katy in #196. These two came after I'd said how CMAR's mistake made him town in my eyes though, so they could in theory be scum fabrications. That makes them weaker town tells to me, but I still think it more likely that the both of them are town.

Scum chesskid has a confirmable town role so go ahead and mock him

I think this is the sixth hint or soft claim I've seen from you. You can stop now, you've been heard and understood, probably by town and scum both.

Anyone who has played with GI before knows that he is naturally a jester by default.

Truth. I thought it was an obvious joke, I don't get why Amrun took it seriously. Not that it matters, this looks like a red herring if I ever saw one.

Onward to my suspects. I haven't seen a satisfactory explanation from inHim for his suspicions, in fact I've seen no new posts from him at all. However, when I read him in isolation I realized my chronology was off. Now I wonder if the way he changed his read of chesskid was because he noticed the same thing I did. Nevertheless, I'm somewhat disturbed by the curt posting style and absence of arguments in his posts, I'll need to check some scum games of his. For now,

Vote: inHimshallibe

As for Pine, maybe the best thing in his defense is his early soft claim of being underpowered, before he was under suspicion. That kind of thing limits the available false claims for scum, and the fact that he repeated that soft claim later confirms it. He could be the type of player to claim vanilla as scum, hoping that the WIFOM involved would save him, but I doubt it.

Back to the drawing board, more later. Sorry about the wall, this tends to happen when you only read the thread once a day, several pages worth at a time.

[Amrun]

I wouldn't have taken it seriously without the "we're jesterlike" in their first post.

Unvote; Vote: Beefster

I've thought about it and decided Beefster is more likely to be scum. Pine is still a good lynch, though.

[IceyCupcake]

It's nice to play with you again, Feysal. I heard you improved greatly after Liten (SAIII, which I flaked out of after Fate/Benmage mess).

I'm also glad you're town this time round.

[IceyCupcake]

I've used my (weak) attack power on IceyCupcake. I encourage everyone who is (wisely) fearful of their waffling between Town-neutral third-party and anti-Town scumminess to do the same.

What waffling. Elaborate.

I'd love you pointing out the anti-town scumminess as well, since this is the first time I recall seeing any mention of that read out of your mouth (aside from my asking for votes).

[Pine]

It isn't the first time. I've consistently said that you're some sort of third party or gambiting scum. I've repeatedly noted and pointed out the flaws in your story.

The waffling is the waffling in your claims. You can't stick to a claim to save your life.

[IceyCupcake]

It isn't the first time. I've consistently said that you're some sort of third party or gambiting scum. I've repeatedly noted and pointed out the flaws in your story.

So you think we're scum based on that claim.

I find it interesting that you've done everything possible since the start of the game to exclude the possibility of it being a town ability. That mindset is not one that comes from town, but rather from scum trying to force a mislynch.

The waffling is the waffling in your claims. You can't stick to a claim to save your life.

What waffling? Want to point them out?

[Amrun]

Icey, thoughts on Beefster?

[Pine]

It seems like I'm moving towards a lynch. Someone has to be the first sacrifice, and if it has to be Town, it may as well be me. From this point on, I am treating it as my job to beat the bushes and flush out as many scum as I can.

This also means that I will largely stop defending myself, and will not be answering questions from my scum/anti-Town reads. My Town flip will vindicate this stance and give added credence to my reads for the Town to go after.

I'll start tomorrow morning with a full re-read and begin shaking trees.

PE: I've already answered most of that, Icey, and in accordance with the above policy, will not be wasting my time any further with you. Fear not, you'll be featured and get your answers.

[IceyCupcake]

Hilarity.

The entire tone of that post reeks of attempting to appear town.

Icey, thoughts on Beefster?

After I read through the game.

Aside from the last 2 pages, I haven't read what's happened between when I last posted and said two pages.