Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den - Endgame

[Mana_Ku]

I won't take you seriously if and when you flip town. In fact, I will simply ignore all your posts because you will be dead.

~
But I'll be nice enough to help you~

Vote: Pine

[Bunnylover]

I really dislike the whole Pine giving up thing and the ATE is throwing out.
BUT
I did recently see Pine flip as scum and his play was different from this.
Before the AtE, I had a town read as Pine (or maybe I should say a meta non-scum read), but then when he gave up it just went to shit vile and became a scum read.
Town does not give up. I'm not even sure if you are voting for one of your scum read Pine.

Mana_Ku above post just reads as bussing scum.
What is Pine at?

[Mana_Ku]

Mana_Ku above post just reads as bussing scum.

Either read or read, before mentioning something like this.

[Zdenek]

I've thought about the Pine situation for awhile and I still think that he's scum. I think it is very anti-town for a townie to push his own lynch and I don't trust Pine enough to want to sheep his reads even if I knew they were genuine. On top of that, I don't think that Pine is so divorced from reality that he actually believes that people are going to decide to sheep his reads just because they know he was telling the truth. All of this makes me think that his current move is an act. I've considered the possibility that he is just emotional or stubborn town, and I was starting to lean in this direction as I reread before he started talking about sharing his thoughts and then pushing his own lynch. As far as saying that he isn't all that powerful goes, I can see how it seems townish, but it's not enough to change my read at this point.

The mod said this somewhere in the bowels of the thread, which is 100 pages and going strong. Good luck finding it, because I'm not even going to try.

It was easy (searching for "hydra" in the mods ISO).

I'm don't care for the sorts of details that Amrun is concerning herself with: hydras who's heads have different roles or this IceyCupcake - jester business.

I'm still suspicious of your reactions, so I will keep my vote where it is.

What didn't you like about them?

[Amrun]

I am no longer concerning myself with those details. I don't know why it's so hard to understand why I was alarmed by a hydra who has already claimed a "jester-like" role said that one of the heads was a jester.

[Beefster]

No, he said I had circular logic. I asked him how, and he said, "Well, I guess you don't, but I also thought you voted two people in the same post, which is scummy, but you didn't do that either". So basically I never did any of the things he accused me of - but HE has done them, as I pointed out - but still votes for me just because he wants to look consistent.

That is how I read his posts. I'm asking around because I want to see if others read them the same way.

Why so defensive?
It's called reaction testing, my friend. Yes, my initial reasoning wasn't great, but your reaction doesn't seem genuinely townie to me. Even though I have my vote on you, you're panicking over essentially nothing. Mind you there are only 2 votes on you right now. I don't see what the big deal is. You're responding as if you have something to lose.

The other thing that bothers me is that [slight exaggeration]ever since I put my vote on you, I have been your only subject of suspect.[/slight exaggeration] Not much more talk of Pine or IC... Nice OMGUS. I'm not talking the panicking townie type, but the panicking scum type.

I also find it odd that you're only rallying support from specific players, rather than everyone.

I think I have caught scum. MOAR VOTES ON AMRUN PLZ.

Pine is really starting to make me nervous with his self-lynch plan. I have never seen that tactic used by pro-town players.

FoS: Pine

[Amrun]

The misrep is lovely. I am not "panicking.". In fact, I could not care less that your vote is on me. It's a coincidence. What a common scum fallback - their attack is proven terrible and they go "lololol reaction fishing!"

If you'll notice, chess kid's vote is on me and I don't care. I care about your vote because you came to it in an excessively scummy way.

I have not dropped my suspicion of pine and I was never suspicious of Icey. I am also suspicious of implosion, but he's not around to answer questions.

Calling my suspicions of you OMGUS when you have zero basis for your attacks is such a sad, sad reach. Someone asked you a question about them, by the way, that wasn't me. You dodged again.

And the FoS rather than vote on Pine is really weak. Sounds like a weak bus, but you being scum is independent of Pine.

And I was soliciting responses from everyybody, but addressed a couple of people in particular simply because they were on and posting.

[CryMeARiver]

On the ABR question topic (the relevant thing):
I personally don't think coordinating our damage is necessary. Besides completely ridiculous people, everyone that is town with damaging spells would use it on players they find scummy. No matter if that player is scum it will either a) Damage/Kill scum b) Damage/Kill 3rd Party or c) Damage/Kill town that is ripe for a mislynch (like SGR).
However, if we were to make a list of the top 3 people to damage that night to coordinate it, I'd propose we also do it for investigating abilities (not protection because that'd let mafia know who we're protecting).

CMAR
If you've put me in the category of players voting SGR for prolonging the RVS, you can read my reason again and put me out of it. Other than that, don't use the 'too scummy to be scum'-fallacy. It's a fallacy for a reason.

CMAR
So, which part of your role PM did you read the first time you saw it?

The argument is scum wouldn't do it, not too scummy to be scum.

None of the flavor. Just the "spells/abilities" and wincon.

Unvote: Mana

Soben, Post 204: Good posting. While I did find it suspicious that he held back on his scumreads initially, this is a good explanation.

@Mana: Your reaction to this post (Post 246) by SGR?

Crymeariver's dismissal of the early game is bad, and seems like an excuse to avoid commenting on things, but I also think that his scum-slip could have come from town or scum. Chesskid, what made you think that he is town?

I didn't dismiss it. I gathered reads from it, I just think what they are fighting about is rather ridiculous. Pine is the scum in that argument.

Pine reads as scum to me. His early posts are a mess. He calls for the vigging of IceyC, and says that he is the only suspicious person in the game, but he doesn't follow it though with a vote. Then asks for Gandalf to be vigged, and as soon as Gandalf takes issue with it, Pine takes the trouble to retract the vig request. He also didn't vote Gandalf. These sorts of interactions makes me think that he was pretending that the vig request was serious, but was never actually suspicious of these people.

And here's the reasoning for it.

Do you think CMAR scumslipped?

Do you? You avoided saying whether or not you think I did, then you asked your scumread if they think I did. Why?

Lynches I'd be okay with at this point: Pine, gandalf, implosion
People that should not be lynched today: SGR, Chess, ABR, Icey, Soben, Beefster, LMP, Mana

Where the hell is Peregrine at this point?
For the record, I'm keeping up with the game, just don't always have time to respond to everything. Will finish responding soon.

[CryMeARiver]

Oh, and selfvoting, or the threat of it, is never a town thing to do. Never.

And I forgot a vote:

Vote: Pine

[Snow_Bunny]

Votecount

1- CryMeARiver

[Healthy]

(0)
2- gandalf5166

[Healthy]

(1) - inHimshallibe
3- chesskid3

[Healthy]

(1) - Bunnylover
4- Albert B. Rampage

[Healthy]

(1) - Pine
5- Riceballtail

[Healthy]

(1) - Soben
6- Katy

[Healthy]

(0)
7- Bunnylover

[Healthy]

(0) -
8- IceyCupcake

[Healthy]

(0)
9- Amrun

[Healthy]

(2) - Beefster, chesskid3
10- Dry-fit

[Healthy]

(0)
11- SnakePlissken

[Healthy]

(0)
12- WrathChild

[Healthy]

(0) -
13- Soben

[Healthy]

(2) - implosion, SnakePlissken
14- Beefster

[Healthy]

(1) - Amrun
15- PeregrineV

[Healthy]

(0)
16- BabySpice

[Healthy]

(0)
17- LynchMePls

[Healthy]

(0) -
18- Zdenek

[Healthy]

(0)
19- Mana_Ku

[Healthy]

(0) -
20- inHimshallibe

[Healthy]

(1) - Feysal
21- SGRaaize

[Healthy]

(4) - Dryfit, LynchMePls, WrathChild, ABR
22- implosion

[Healthy]

(1) - Katy,
23- Feysal

[Healthy]

(0)
24- Pine

[Healthy]

(6) - Zdenek, SGRaaize, gandalf5166, BabySpice, ManaKu, CryMeARiver

Not voting (3): PeregrineV, Riceballtail, IceyCupcake

With 24 alive, it takes 13 to lynch.

Deadline is on June 9th at midnight (GMT -5)

[Dry-fit]

Dryfit and LMP
There has been another player in this game who had somebody mentioned as scummy, but who has kept his RVS vote at that point. Why no mention about this player?

Didn't notice Pine. Was watching SGR more closely because he had already caught my eye.

or just bullshit reasoning to justify when A) The BW ends up being on Town B) The BW ends up going nowhere and people start suspecting everyone involved (Dry-fit)

Wow way to attack me without even answering my question.

How would it have a drastic effect on the game? They would leave. We would GET RID of an anti town role with no negative effects. Plus if they have any teammates, they leave too. HOW IS THAT A BAD THING

Well there's always the off chance they could draw a scumkill. Honestly I don't know why people are voting for Ice.

Not seeing the case on Pine at all.

[CryMeARiver]

Not seeing the case on Pine at all.

Not saying you're scummy or anything for it, but I'm curious as to whether you've genuinely read the last 2 pages.

[Pine]

I would never play this suicidally as scum. It's just not a good idea.

I would link you to games where I've played this way as Town, but at least one is ongoing. I think there's an offsite game like this, I'll find the link when I get home

[Soben]

Not seeing the case on Pine at all.

Not saying you're scummy or anything for it, but I'm curious as to whether you've genuinely read the last 2 pages.

I tend to agree with Dryfit, although I can understand and see where the case against Pine is coming from I don't believe it holds much ground, sure his attitute might be excessive and his play might be bad but there's no real scum-motivation behind it either.

I would never play this suicidally as scum. It's just not a good idea.

I would link you to games where I've played this way as Town, but at least one is ongoing. I think there's an offsite game like this, I'll find the link when I get home

I would much rather you focused your time and efforts in providing your reads with reasoning attached to them.

[CryMeARiver]

I would never play this suicidally as scum. It's just not a good idea.

I would link you to games where I've played this way as Town, but at least one is ongoing. I think there's an offsite game like this, I'll find the link when I get home

At this point, I don't care if you're town. This mislynch would be okay with me. Threatening a selfvote or selfvoting is probably the biggest no-no in my book because it is incredibly anti-town if you're town or scummy if your scum.

Defend yourself by defending, not through a poor AtE.

[SGRaaize]

or just bullshit reasoning to justify when A) The BW ends up being on Town B) The BW ends up going nowhere and people start suspecting everyone involved (Dry-fit)

Wow way to attack me without even answering my question.[/quote]

I answered your question, I always take time to change votes, its a meta from me, I even gave you links to the past games where I do that.

[implosion]

WALLPOST

So you have hydra-hunting prioritized over scumhunting? :/

It was early game with little to go on, so I may as well have looked for the hydra heads while there was relatively little to do.

Vote: Ricebaltail

Why vote this scumread instead of a scumread that you had commented on?

@Soben: You know that I'm scum from one post, namely a RVS post? You know... there are two kinds of people in this world: those that can extrapolate data from inconclusive information and...

Why is this phrased so indirectly? Why don't you give an opinion on Soben's read on you in this post except for an indirect, implied "your read on me is bad" statement? What do you think of Soben him/their self?

Plus, Implosion was and still is coming off as more scummy than SGR. I don't understand why he cares so much about the who the hydra is. How are their identities relevant to their alignment?

Well first of all, based on Soben's name/avatar it was likely that I knew at least one and probably both heads, and it's helpful to know who they are in order to read them. Second of all, curiosity.

implosion has played strangely so far. Hydra-hunting as a first priority and no scumhunting, despite being around.

See above.

21- SGRaaize

[Healthy]

(6) - ManaKu, chesskid3, gandalf5166, Dryfit, LynchMePls, WrathChild

There absolutely has to be scum on this wagon. It built way too quickly and on only mediocre grounds for there not to be. I'm going to do an analysis of how it developed later (though I wouldn't mind if someone else took on the task, busy today, members of the BW need not apply) to see if I can spot the opportunists/bussers.

My read of SGRaaize remains wholly ambivalent. I can see both Town and scum motivations for what he's done so far, none of them strong. If I had to commit, I'd lean a little to the Town side based on the wagon speed.

:goodposting:. The scum is also most likely late on the wagon, or possibly multiple scum early and late.

Started writing this yesterday then kept getting distracted lol.

Oh..... I uh...... missed the imp vote afterwards.

Unvote
VOTE: Cupcake
Unvote
VOTE: LMP

This is a strange thing to miss. Missing it implies that you weren't really reading to fully see what people are saying, but rather to find evidence against people, which is scummy.

LMP, do you usually put so much emphasis on getting out of RVS?

SGR isn't reading particularly scummy to me. I don't see anything wrong with him having a lot of nullreads in his analysis, either.

So Soben keeps calling us town, yet steadfastly refuses to treat us as such.

does not compute

This is notable. Soben's justification is that it isn't worth the risk; but would there really be a role that has such a drastic effect from having people vote for it? Doubtful. Plus,

if it *is* third party, it would likely have had some kind of disincentive from claiming that it's jester-like

(I looked at another S_B game and there was a protown third party that had negative effects from claiming).

Basically, if Soben thinks Icey is town, Soben has little reason not to vote Icey like Icey asks because Icey clearly has reason that they can't reveal for asking for votes. If Soben's reason not to vote is the stated above, then I've debunked that. If it's because Soben isn't sure if Icey is town, there's still little reason not to because Soben has a townread on Icey, meaning it's more likely that there will be positive effects from voting Icey than negitave effects.

How would it have a drastic effect on the game? They would leave. We would GET RID of an anti town role with no negative effects. Plus if they have any teammates, they leave too. HOW IS THAT A BAD THING

Soben's point is that there could be negative effects - why are you assuming that there would be none?

My strongest scum read so far was on LynchMePls. Mostly he has seemed situationally like he has been trying to seize the opportunity to make people look bad without actually investigating his suspicious. Also a scum tell of mine personally is explaining the game mechanics as a defense mechanism to take attention off myself for my actions. I see him doing that in a post. I'm really bad with quotes and formatting stuff so bear with me and it should be pretty obvious whether its me or Regfan posting.

I saw something like this on reading him. I wasn't really able to synthesize what I was finding scummy, but I do kind of have a gut scumread on LMP. This is a good explanation of it, I think, specifically the part about not really going after his suspicions, and also his strange obsession with ending the RVS.

I think Icey is either town or a cleric-like third party, by the way.

on page 15, posting what I have so far because I've somehow managed to not post in 3 days and I've been prodded while posting before so more coming shortly.

[Amrun]

So you suspect Soben, but agree with their scumreads, implosion? O.o

[implosion]

@Amrun, I think that Soben is town overall, but don't understand or disagree with their refusal to vote icey. Also, I don't see why a person couldn't find someone else scummy yet at the same time agree with reads that they've stated. Just because a person is scummy, it doesn't make their reads wrong, especially in a complex theme game where there are likely multiple third parties.

Still reading.

[Soben]

It was early game with little to go on, so I may as well have looked for the hydra heads while there was relatively little to do.

See, I have two problems with this:
1) You've already stated you believe our heads are obvious thus I don't understand the need to hydra-hunt.
2) If you really were that interested in our heads you would check to see where I've posted and then instantly notice I account-slipped in another game.

Why vote this scumread instead of a scumread that you had commented on?

Simple. I know you can react to pressure quite welll, especially coming from one of us two therefore the reaction we obtain from you would be minimal compared to voting an alternate scum-read.

Basically, if Soben thinks Icey is town, Soben has little reason not to vote Icey like Icey asks because Icey clearly has reason that they can't reveal for asking for votes. If Soben's reason not to vote is the stated above, then I've debunked that. If it's because Soben isn't sure if Icey is town, there's still little reason not to because Soben has a townread on Icey, meaning it's more likely that there will be positive effects from voting Icey than negitave effects.

You really want to continue pushing this? I see the possibly of roles such as a cult-recruiter who is only allowed to recuit if he obtains x number of votes a day in the game thus there are indeed risks to voting him while no risks in not doing so.

[Katy]

Katy: AtE is Appeal to Emotion, for future reference.

Thanks. I guess I don't see that as a reliable scumtell. I have seen townies appeal to emotion numerous times. It may be something you can use as a meta-tell if you know the player, but some players get more emotional as town who is falsely accused than as scum. In addition, I could see the point if Pine had been called out for some small detail because scum often get angry when they feel they are being caught for the wrong reasons. But Pine deliberately chose to make this Icey thing a big deal. Something I just don't see scum doing.

I think the threat to self-vote is anti-town but I don't necessarily think it is scummy. I have seen both town and scum do it, and when it's town it's usually players who are already acting highly irrational (and appealing to emotion). I don't think it is in and of itself a scumtell unless someone can convince me that this is how Pine in particular acts when scummy and someone has already said that it is not.

On the other hand, implosion -

Did nothing except vote for the hydra just to try to find out who was in it for much of the beginning of the game.

It was early game with little to go on, so I may as well have looked for the hydra heads while there was relatively little to do.

That's not exactly true. There were already a few things that could have been commented at the time - Icey's claim for one and ABR's seeking to hear from those with damaging abilities. There were various people's reactions to those two things as well. You chose to vote for someone who hadn't posted at all yet in the interest of finding out who it was.

I'm also not sure why his vote is still on soben if he finds Soben to be "town overall' and to have a scum read on LMP. Even if you don't have much to go on, why wouldn't you take your vote off someone you think is town, that you didn't really have reason to vote for in the first place, and put it on the person you think is scum, even if it's just gut for now?

On the other hand, the other person I find scummy is the same as implosion ... LMP.

I find his initial vote on Wratchchild for

For trying to dissuade votes based on actions and instead push for RVS. The faster RVS dies the better.

to be disingenuous. Wrathchild was just expressing dislike of Pine's seriousness, he was not trying to "push for RVS" that I can see.

In looking at him in ISO several of his posts are just questions without any followup. It caught my eye because asking three to four questions of players in a row without any followup looks to me like throwing stuff out there to make people look suspect without having to explain why they are suspect. It also looks like appearing to be scumhunting but without any serious intent behind it.

FoS: LMP

[implosion]

'Obv, he's biased against his own wagon. As he knows his faction *rolls eyes*. He's still alive, so if he's town, he's the only one who can analyse it with a complete 100% 'SGR is town' - thought behind it. In his eyes, this is catching scum. When a vote is placed, says a lot, which destroys his second reason (This time is an exception though, due to Chess's reason). And everybody can get angry when he's attacked by reasons he thinks are stupid. But as my future-telling abilities have shown me, he later sees part of SGR's 'overreaction' as town-tell.

This. If a bandwagon forms on a pro-town player on day one, that is an opportunity for that protown player to analyze that bandwagon because they know that it's on town. It is not suspicious to analyze a bandwagon on oneself while assuming that oneself is town, because people know their own alignment.

I fucking hate using Meta and I hate when Meta is mentioned anywhere in a Mafia game. There's nothing I'd love more than complete anonymous Mafia playing, but if everyone else can use it, you can bet your ass I'm also gonna use it if it means I don't get lynched.

Meta is a necessary part of the game. If two different people exhibit the same behavior as opposing alignments (for example, one is aggressive as town while the other is aggressive as scum) then it nullifies using something like aggressiveness on its own as a tell without supplementarily stating whether the person in question is aggressive more as scum or town.

By the way, I think the pine wagon is a ML too. Pine's frustration reads as genuine. AtE is not a good scumtell - you have to look at whether it's genuine or manufactured, and it looks genuine.

As I'm thinking about it, I'm ambivalent about ABR's mass-shooting plan. It is obviously possible if we just select one target for scum to protect if they have any sort of protection, and if we select multiple targets same thing since they're unlikely to all be scum, plus scum could be able to protect or redirect attacks on one of the targets if one of the targets is scum. I still kind of like the idea, though. If scum only has a limited amount of protective ability, this could use it up. If they don't have any, well, it could eliminate scum roles. Plus, if we target any third parties, they are less likely to be defended.

I intend to self-vote and push my lynch when I finish. I have nothing to lose, and Town has everything to gain from this tactic.

Hell, if I'm NOT lynched and flipped to confirm the validity of my reads, it's an exercise in futility.

^an example of something that looks genuine. Pine is probably town. But needs to stop being so apathetic.

[implosion]

Oh. VOTE: gandalf for now. Forgot to do that.

It was early game with little to go on, so I may as well have looked for the hydra heads while there was relatively little to do.

See, I have two problems with this:
1) You've already stated you believe our heads are obvious thus I don't understand the need to hydra-hunt.
2) If you really were that interested in our heads you would check to see where I've posted and then instantly notice I account-slipped in another game.

1) That was somewhat sarcastic. Regfan was pretty likely, the other is a bit more unsure.
2) I didn't even know that you were in any other games, and didn't check.

Why vote this scumread instead of a scumread that you had commented on?

Simple. I know you can react to pressure quite welll, especially coming from one of us two therefore the reaction we obtain from you would be minimal compared to voting an alternate scum-read.

You didn't vote for me, you voted for Riceballtail.

Basically, if Soben thinks Icey is town, Soben has little reason not to vote Icey like Icey asks because Icey clearly has reason that they can't reveal for asking for votes. If Soben's reason not to vote is the stated above, then I've debunked that. If it's because Soben isn't sure if Icey is town, there's still little reason not to because Soben has a townread on Icey, meaning it's more likely that there will be positive effects from voting Icey than negitave effects.

You really want to continue pushing this? I see the possibly of roles such as a cult-recruiter who is only allowed to recuit if he obtains x number of votes a day in the game thus there are indeed risks to voting him while no risks in not doing so.

Fair enough, I guess. I still disagree to an extent, but arguing over it is mostly pointless.

That's not exactly true. There were already a few things that could have been commented at the time - Icey's claim for one and ABR's seeking to hear from those with damaging abilities. There were various people's reactions to those two things as well. You chose to vote for someone who hadn't posted at all yet in the interest of finding out who it was.

I'm also not sure why his vote is still on soben if he finds Soben to be "town overall' and to have a scum read on LMP. Even if you don't have much to go on, why wouldn't you take your vote off someone you think is town, that you didn't really have reason to vote for in the first place, and put it on the person you think is scum, even if it's just gut for now?

I guess I just didn't really feel like commenting on them. I find the beginning of games somewhat awkward, and it's difficult for me to establish reads until other people have, to an extent. I didn't plan to move my vote until I'd finished reading.

[Soben]

Why vote this scumread instead of a scumread that you had commented on?

Simple. I know you can react to pressure quite welll, especially coming from one of us two therefore the reaction we obtain from you would be minimal compared to voting an alternate scum-read.

You didn't vote for me, you voted for Riceballtail.

Exactly?

[implosion]

Misread part of that. Why RBT instead of Katy, whose scumread you'd explained?