Mini1147-Royal Mafia at the Round Table (Game Over!)

[Locke Lamora]

Let me make this clear: I don't suspect you because you got a guilty. It's the main thing in your favour for being town. You asked why you would have done certain things as scum. I told you. If you want to play that game, everything is WIFOM. There are reasons that scum can do just about everything. For instance, I just finished a game in which one of the scum had a daykill and shot his buddy on D1, then rode that through 9 days to win the game without doing any scumhunting, all whilst faking a post restriction. It was an incredibly risky play that I've never seen before and all but one or two of the players had him down as confirmed town for the entirety of the game, so it ended up working out perfectly. In this situation, I think you and NE bussing is a hell of a lot more plausible than that. So you're wasting your time with the 'why would I do this as scum?' arguments because I've considered that, and I still am.

So, to clarify: I suspect you because your thought process doesn't read as genuine to me and prior to the claim, several points from NE's ISO stand out to me as the actions of a buddy, particularly that quote about Klazam. And you STILL haven't answered my question.

[Twistedspoon]

sorry 'bout that
you might not believe me but i thought i had actually answered it
anyways

Plus you still haven't explained your contradictory attitude towards Farside's claim. When I asked the question about Quilford's list, did you already know that Farside had claimed or not?

quilford's list seemed fine to me at first. 'course It didn't match the order of most likely to be scum in my opinionat the time, but I didn't see anything wrong with it at first except for the fact that I thought it slightly odd that Farside had already softclaimed d3. I didn't remember where it was in the ISO nor did I remember anyone making a big fuss or discussion about the softclaim so I decided to ignore it for now and bring it up should farside claim a PR
however when it became apparent we weren't massclaiming i forgot about it for a bit until you aid that something was wrong with the quilly list. That made me remember and I decided to point out that I seemed to remember farside having already sotclaimed. Although I wasn't sure when, but I had a vague Idea it was in d3. I also didn't remember the details of the claim. In other words she might just have claimed townie, so IF i said farside had claimed VT d3 when it turns out she hadn't done that explicity I would be wrong :/
anyways, what was it you found problematic with Quilford's list?

[farside22]

LL: Why did you ask Dup and myself who was scum with TS if we suspect him? You suspected him yourself it seems and didn't answer your own question.

[Locke Lamora]

Exactly that. You weren't wrong about what I spotted. You just acted as though you weren't sure, which you apparently weren't, but then claimed that you were waiting so that you could catch Farside in a lie, which you would only have been able to do if you actually knew what her claim was in the first place. The two don't fit. The thing is, you didn't do what I would expect from a townie. I was reading back what I missed while I was V/LA and I noticed that Farside claimed. That was after I had already seen Quilford's claim list. You had the reverse experience: you were obviously here when Farside claimed, and you've admitted that you thought Farside had at least 'softclaimed' on D3 when you saw Quilford's list. Know what the first thing I'd do after having that thought is? Check Farside's ISO to make sure I was right. Then I might think about waiting to catch Farside in a lie, once I was sure that I had the claim right (Farside is pretty experienced and I think this would have been kind of pointless, but that's besides the point here). You did nothing of the sort. This does not indicate an inquisitive town thought process. It indicates scum who already knew what everyone's alignment was and had little interest in checking up on a claim already made.

So you get why I find you scummy now?

Farside: honestly, I suspect TS a lot more having reviewed NE's ISO, which is why I didn't really cover it at the time. I would have to say Duplicity's slot makes most sense as a buddy for me, particularly the Oso part. Read the post where he puts TS at effective L-1 (ISO 33). The tone is almost 'hey, you're not doing anything, I've got no choice but to call you scum'. I find Prosaurus' dearth of scumhunting to be scummier, but I'm having a hard time telling if he's just a newbie or he's playing the newbie card. Regardless, he seems like a less likely buddy.

[neil1113]

Vote Count #1.0:
Day Four

Twistedspoon

(1): Locke Lamora

farside22

(0)

Locke Lamora

(0):

Duplicity

(0):

Quilford

(0):

Prosaurus

(0):

No Lynch

(0):

Not Voting

(5): Prosaurus, Quilford, Duplicity, Twistedspoon, Farside22

V/LA

(0):

Prodding:

(0):

With

6

alive, it takes

4

to lynch.

Deadline

for Day Four is

5:00 PM EST 06/01/11

[Quilford]

Locke. It's mylo. We're nling today.

I'll get round to more questions later.

[Prosaurus]

@FS You from PoE. Gut feeling from LL plus I found EA scummy.

Farside: I'm fluctuating between believing TS and not. If he is town then you/Duplicity, but most of that's POE. I think Prosaurus is likely town.

Spectacularly useless town at that, but town.

Right now I'm going to ISO NE and look for any connections.

Bonus points for anyone who can tell me what's wrong with Quilford's claim list.

I sadly agree with this completely. I feel like I haven't done... well, anything in this game.

@TS I did a case on him D1 or D2. D2 I think, check my Iso.

@LL's Post 917
I'd say that's scumhunting, town wouldn't claim something else while scum could.

@LL's #923
I'm pretty sure at least one person said he shouldn't have investigated NE. Would you think they're scummy, or just dumb from that?
Your third point is the kind of thing I'd normally say, then people would say "That's so unlikely we'll just ignore it".

@Quilford I'm guessing nling is Not Lynching?

[Twistedspoon]

I sadly agree with this completely. I feel like I haven't done... well, anything in this game.

nah, you've been awesome

and you're learning anyways so no worries


anyways, I might take a look at the NE ISO myself if I have time

[farside22]

Quilly: Do you think a nl will give any info at this point?

I'm not sure what to think of LL's latest post. It confuses me because I started to think LL/TS combo based on day play from EA and him holding onto the wagon on NE like I would expect scum to do if there was a plan to bus.

[Duplicity]

I believe G is going to be back online later tonight to finish our discussion about this game I'll share all of our thoughts then.

For now, Quilford we're not NL'ing the benefit in doing so is close to zilch while it means that just one incorrect town vote could lead to a blitz and end game which needs to be avoided at all costs.

[Locke Lamora]

On the topic of TS having other plausible investigations: first of all, it's a perception thing. Rhinox might have said he'd have bought another investigation, but if the scumteam believed that NE was TS's most plausible investigation target then it doesn't matter that other people thought otherwise at the time, because they had no way of knowing. And secondly, I'll have to reiterate that those points were a response to TS's 'why would I do that as scum?' pleas. They're not reasons why I suspect TS. They are reasons why NE/TS could have decided that a bus was the best course of action at that point.

Prosaurus: do you not see my point in 917? I have explained this quite clearly to TS. He said he was waiting to catch Farside in a trap

but he wasn't even sure whether Farside had claimed, let alone what she'd claimed

. It's not a townie attitude to not check that. My guess is he knew exactly what Farside claimed, decided not to bring it up so he didn't look like he was paying as much attention and then acted all casual when I questioned the list and pretended to 'vaguely remember' the claim.

[Quilford]

I can't think that Twisted is scum

his 'one shot' tell was too townie

And if he were scum I doubt he'd have said it at all

[Locke Lamora]

All those things go in his favour. My problem is he just does not seem genuine. The Farside thing is just the latest of a number of posts from him which do not sound like someone being honest and open about their thoughts on the game. Do you have any thoughts on my question about Open 292? It seems pretty pertinent to me.

[Twistedspoon]

All those things go in his favour. My problem is he just does not seem genuine.

fine, I'm a bad one-shot cop if that's what you mean. I'm still one though

right now I'd much rather have investigated farside or another suspect of mine over NE since I doubt NE would have made it to this stage investigation or not.

if i don't seem 'genuine' or not you have to accept that your perception of 'genuine' will cost us the game.

[Locke Lamora]

It's not about being a bad one-shot cop. NE was a good investigation, and if you really are a cop, I have no problem with that investigation. I'm just not getting the impression that you're genuine in your posting from your tone; your 'vaguely remember' screams of trying too hard to look casual, you made a post on D1 (which I quoted yesterday) that looked like you knew Javert was a legitimate 1-shot vig and now you're trying to pressure me out of suspecting you by saying my perception of 'genuine' is going to lose the game. Guess what? This game is all about perceptions. There are three other townies here. If we lose the game, it's not going to be solely because I think you don't sound like you're being honest. And hey, if you are both town and being honest that you thought Farside had claimed but you didn't bother to go back and check despite wanting to catch her in a lie then yeah, that's bad, anti-town play.

[Twistedspoon]

And hey, if you are both town and being honest that you thought Farside had claimed but you didn't bother to go back and check despite wanting to catch her in a lie then yeah, that's bad, anti-town play.

what do you mean both?

and i said i'd have checked had she claimed a PR. before then there was no need to

[Locke Lamora]

I mean that both being town and being honest are not necessarily a given. You could be scum and be being honest (in the sense that you thought Farside had claimed, not that you wanted to catch her in a lie). You could be town and be lying about your thought process because you think what genuinely happened looks scummier than what you claimed.

I think there was a need to check if you weren't even sure she had claimed, and you've said you weren't sure. Here's my thinking as town.
1. I see Quilford post a list that includes Farside.
2. I think 'hey, didn't Farside already claim?'.
3. I go back and check to make sure Farside did claim.
4. I either a) bring up the fact that Farside has already claimed or b) wait to see if Farside claims something different.

Here's what you did in 3 and 4:
3. You do nothing because you don't really think it matters until Farside claims.
4. You say nothing because you think you can catch Farside in a lie.

See the disconnect there? You're not inquisitive. You're not interested in making sure you have your facts right. You weren't even that interested in catching Farside in the lie because you so readily declared that Farside had already claimed as soon as I asked what was wrong with the list. You didn't even wait to make sure we weren't massclaiming - the two people who didn't want to were Farside, who you obviously think is likely scum, and me. Our confirmed townie did want to massclaim, and let's face it - if Quilford really wants to run today, he can. If he decides to vote for someone then it doesn't matter if the other three townies disagree, he has the controlling guaranteed non-scum vote. So your eagerness to give Farside the pass and say that she'd already claimed is again at odds with wanting to catch her in a lie.

[farside22]

LL: The problem I have is that you think Dup is scum with TS and I just don't see that. I mean why not vote for me yesterday. Why look at my meta and make points on why he see's me as town. I don't see scum going to that much trouble. He could have easily road that wave of my lynch and no one would have thought differently of him.


As for TS push on Pro today, it could be TS bussing a partner for town cred. The whole WIFOM on the night kill feels off to me.

In short I still favor TS scum but I still feel Dup is more town then either LL or Pro at this point.

[farside22]

mod: I will be on Vacation with no computer access this coming weekend. (Memorial Day weekend) Should be back Monday night but put me on Vacation till Tuesday just in case.

[Prosaurus]

Prosaurus: do you not see my point in 917? I have explained this quite clearly to TS. He said he was waiting to catch Farside in a trap

but he wasn't even sure whether Farside had claimed, let alone what she'd claimed

. It's not a townie attitude to not check that. My guess is he knew exactly what Farside claimed, decided not to bring it up so he didn't look like he was paying as much attention and then acted all casual when I questioned the list and pretended to 'vaguely remember' the claim.

Did he not say he'd wait to see if farside claimed something else? I believe he said he was going to do that.

Hmmm...
Let me try something here.

Farside
Locke
Twisted

Quilford

Confirmed town

Duplicity

Town read

Prosaurus

Me

I say one of the three remaining is town, the other two are scum. May I recommend others do this? Especially if you have more than one town read.

[Twistedspoon]

?

so I cross out myself and Quilly and have 4 others left, 2 of which are scum. doesn't help me much

anyways, talk about your duplicity town read. I'm interested. we have yet to discuss duplicity today and I want everyone to be discussed since we're in MyLo and a mislynch costs us the game

[Quilford]

Sorry guys

I'll spend some time with this game tonight

[Locke Lamora]

Pro: I know he said he was going to wait. My point is, if he was thinking about catching Farside in a lie, he needed to know what the original claim was. Apparently he lacked the interest to take 2 minutes to ISO Farside and make sure he was right in the first place. I find that hard to buy as town.

Farside: what odds does it make to Duplicity whether they pushed yours or Maxous' lynch? Scum couldn't have won yesterday anyway. Are you saying that scum don't think of reasons not to lynch people? To give one particularly pertinent hypothetical, if the Duplicity slot is town, why did NE produce a townread on Oso during D1 when he could have easily maintained him as a suspect? I'm certainly not sold on a TS-Dup scumteam, but I think your reason for doubting Dup-scum is fairly weak.

[Duplicity]

I really will attempt to devote the time needed to this game later today, still waiting on G to come back on msn and it's becoming increasingly more frustrating having to chase him up on his thoughts.

nah, you've been awesome
and you're learning anyways so no worries

This is a complete contradiction to the opinion you had of Prosaurus at day-start, you came into the day believing that Prosaraus is mafia and nothing has happened that would change your mind however you seem contempt to deny the fact that Prosarus has had an extreme lack of contribution to the game and buddy him instead of believe that his lack of contribution is something that would or should further your scum-read of him.

[Prosaurus]

@TS It's not so much as a town read, it's more of a "I don't think he's scum/He hasn't done anything scummy" read, while the other 3 have.