Open 304 - Hard Boiled, Game Over. Was DY's Dystopia saved?

[don_johnson]

FLUFF. < the case on rc

[DarthYoshi]

mod: vote count please

I can do that.

Day Two, Votecount the Second

toffee (1): Amrun
Amrun (3): Scott Brosius, RedCoyote, Smashbro_of_the_SSS
RedCoyote (3): zMuffinMan, toffee, HellloooNewman
Not Voting (1): don_johnson

The deadline is 7:30 am PDT, Saturday, June 4. With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch, and 4 to no-lynch.

As ever, any issues, please let me know.

[don_johnson]

vote: redcoyote

Thanks. Amrun, pls hammer.

If amrun isnt vig. Vig shoots amrun.

[Scott Brosius]

Hooray lets rush the day again! don is so obviously Amrun's partner. The way RC addressed Amrun does not read as bussing to me. Given that I am 99.9% sure Amrun is scum, I am not voting for RC. From my brief read over it looks like lack of content? And voting for CK?

[don_johnson]

Damnit brosius. Why so stubborn?

unvote vote amrun

We can do it your way. But I reserve the right to say I told you so.

[Amrun]

Scott, don't be so retarded. I haven't been CC'ed. Because I am the vig.

[Scott Brosius]

We don't have to lynch amrun today. I just don't see the case on RC and I don't want to lynch that quickly. Amrun is guaranteed to be dead before D3 regardless.

No CC 6 hours after you claim does not = confirmed vig. You can keep going out of your way to tell everyone you are the vig though.

[Amrun]

Everyone has posted, so yes, it does mean no cc.

I understand that you all don't trust me and that's fine, but it's pretty clear I'm not the lynch for today.

If you don't like the case on RC, make one on someone else.

Even if toffee and RC are both scum, there's still one more.e

[Scott Brosius]

Everyone hasn't posted since you claimed, so no, it doesn't mean no cc.

[Amrun]

Wait, who are we missing then? I was pretty sure everyone did.

[Scott Brosius]

smash hasn't posted since you claimed.

[Amrun]

Oh, wait for him then. Whatevs.

[don_johnson]

unvote

While we wait.

[zMuffinMan]

The way RC addressed Amrun does not read as bussing to me.

Why do you think that?

Look, consider this:

- His vote on Amrun was his first somewhat-justified vote this game. Literally. He hasn't justified any of his other votes at all. You don't think there's any deeper meaning behind this?
- He signalled that he would put pressure on Amrun yesterday (#273: "Amrun needs to be held properly accountable"). Even if you don't want to read deeply into this (because it's very easy to interpret this as RC knowing what DK is going to flip), you can at least see that he had every intention of voting Amrun today if DK flipped town.

I just don't see the case on RC and I don't want to lynch that quickly... From my brief read over it looks like lack of content? And voting for CK?

It's really not so much lack of content, as the scum motivation behind his lack of content.

None of his D1 votes had any real justification, he formed no reads at all D1 (or at least mentioned no reads).

His vote on CK essentially gave him a roost in which he sat while observing the game, asking questions for no reason (I say no reason because generally when one asks questions, they do something with the answers. RC asked a lot of questions but... formed absolutely no reads from the answers, and didn't use the answers in any way). And when questioned about why he was still voting CK, said CK was the best lynch despite acknowledging prior to this that there was no case on CK and that he was unsure whether CK was scummy.

Even D2, he's still not committing to reads. Even though I clearly asked him to commit to reads, he's still being wishy-washy so he doesn't get on the wrong side of anyone. Take his #323 for example:

I could conceivably see some Amrun - Muffin pairing here.

Yeah... And I could conceivably see almost any two players being a scum pairing, so this is essentially a fluff statement. Like all of his D1 play, he still doesn't commit to a read.

And after your claim he comes out with...

I can go with Muffin-Amrun-don though. For sure.

Even if this were true, he's happy to go with this scum team purely because neither don or I put pressure on Amrun over someone who has been playing in a much scummier manner.

Look, I can't really do anything other than point you to the things I think are scummy. If you read his posts and assess it differently to me, than nothing I say is going to change your mind. You need to take some initiative and look at RC's posts and decide whether you think he's town or scum. I think it's dumb to base what you think his alignment is purely on the fact he was voting for your top scum suspect today. Bussing isn't as unnecessary as you think it is now that we know there isn't a tracker and two other investigative PRs are dead; look at how he's earned town points in your mind purely because he voted for Amrun.

--

Both toffee and ssssssss haven't posted since the claim actually. Unless I missed a toffee post somewhere.

[don_johnson]

vote redcoyote

Muffin is town. His ability to spell out the case on RC is better than mine. I dont see anything negative coming from an rc lynch here. If amrun isnt vig then hes dead tonight. Im only lynching amrun with a cc. Brosius, get it together. Dont let your status go to your head.

[Amrun]

I can see the case on RC. It's quite good, actually.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

ugh. honestly, I'm not sure I want to believe amrun completely, really thought we got scum there. but right now amrun is confirmed town of course. unless toffee counter claims. i'll

unvote

for now, don't really have time to go over this game right now. i wanna look at the rc case again next

[RedCoyote]

Oh, Amrun. Are you really the Vig? I thought for sure you were just trying to get the Vig to come out.

[RedCoyote]

You asked a lot of questions yesterday (to appear like you were scum hunting), but did nothing with the answers (essentially meaning the questions you asked were useless).

No, this is just flat wrong. My questions helped me assess HN's alignment. Here is an example:

This eventually led to this.

Because if someone is going to be protective of their vote, especially if they're active otherwise, then I want them to have to defend their non-voting. See my comments to Surye above if you want more elaboration.

In any case, I'm happy with your vote, and think I'll join you.

Most of my other questions were rhetorical, and obviously so. It's unfair of you to say my questions led nowhere. They led me to my vote. They led me from HN as scum, to town, and now back scum again. You can't discount that, Muffin.

You thought CK was anti-town, but you weren't sure whether he was scummy.

Just like toffee and just like the other person that did this, HN I think, you're taking a complex political issue and trying to shoehorn it into some talking point against me. This was absolutely not the case. Since you're not interested in dissecting the issue (nor am I interested in really fleshing it out for a third time), we'll cut to the part where I say chess was both scummy and anti-town.

You didn't have any better suspicions than CK, who you admitted there was no case on.

Nope. I voted both toffee and DK (which is where my vote actually ended up) yesterday. I didn't have a "case" on chess because, when I made that comment, I did not want chess lynched. I wanted more discussion.

Then you switched over to DK->toffee->DK with almost no reason given except that you agreed with someone else or liked the wagon.

No, I argued with both DK and toffee a number of times:

Spoiler:

I don't understand this, I read you're thinking chess as town but at the same time you're voting him. Scum alarm activated.

What I'm saying is that he's straight less likely to be a PR. Because of that, as I said to SSSS, if we end up lynching a VT at the end of today with no other claims, that's not the worst scenario we can come across. I don't necessarily mean I think he's scum or not. Obviously I don't know either way.

Then in post #53 you're saying if it's better to hunt an anti town VT because it's D1 and all, I just can't understand the logiiiiiiiiiiiiiccccccccc

I'm not acting like a "hero", so let's get on the same foot here. I don't know where you got that idea. I'm just saying, to SSSS, that, especially in this game, night actions are so vital for the town.

Today it would be better to lynch a VT and not out any of our PRs than lynch a scum an out several of our PRs. Do you agree with that?

it is town job to find scum, not killing each other apart.

If your opinion is that I'm trying to lynch town, then you're incorrect. That's not my intention. My intention is to lynch scum. I just want everyone to understand that lynching a VT on D1 without any other claims, given this setup, is a satisfactory outcome.

Why should we be convinced w/ chesskid lynch in this case?

There's no chess "case". If I was wanting chess lynched right now, I'd be rallying y'all to the wagon. It's just a spot to keep my vote because I think, if the day ended right now, he'd be the one I'd most want lynched. I would not prefer him lynched right now (nor would I anyone).

Sorry, but that would defeat my purpose of placing a vote on him.

This is just silly. In other words, you can't explain your vote.

@RedCoyote

I will explain my vote, but if I did it now, than nameloc would have it way much easier.

Sorry, I call BS. Even if you did have an explanation, I don't suspect it will be good enough to justify all the heat it's bringing on you. Not for a D1 wagon.

Deity's style of play I referred was his odd style in questioning people. While his votes history were quite alarming so far, I want to find out his true opinion 'bout all of his scumread and making sure if he's not just following the crowd.

Could you just state for us, very clearly, whether or not you think DK is scummy? There's no reason we should have to go through all this filler unless you're giving yourself leverage to backtrack. Do you understand?

Claim: Vanilla Townie

Did you think this was going to help move the toffee wagon along or something?

Unvote

;

vote: DeityKabuto

I don't like how Amrun, RedCoyote, Newman, and Newman's scumhunting buddy are all leading this toffee case, it's like they seriously want

an innocent townie lynch

.

(emphasis added)

...and you know toffee is "an innocent townie" how?

I am tired of the system, and how there are multiple scum on my wagon who will make sure that I get lynched.

Who are they? I know you think HN, but is that it?

All of these comments are of my own intuition. I bounced things off of my townreads, like I'd expect any player to do in any game, by showing support for what I believe to be the correct and opposition to what I don't, but to marginalize my own individual input in this game is unfair.

Do you think I'm scummy or do you not think I'm scummy for doing what I did after replacing in?

I wasn't asking you to validate your question in any other way than this.

If it's not going to help you determine my alignment, then there was no reason to mention it.

I don't understand. I need to ask questions and give input in this game so that you can read me. I need you to do the same so I can read you. This isn't some battle over who can find scum by using the least amount of words.

Well, if Amrun is actually a Vig. Then the scumteam is going to include you or HN. Given HN's hammer, I suspect he'll be more likely to be scum than you. At the time, I would've said yes, but if Amrun is telling the truth, then no. The scumteam is probably don, HN, and toffee.

What Amrun wagon? There were no votes on Amrun before I posted today. Before you posted, there was a single vote on her. What wagon was there to appease?

I think you know what point I'm making, but you're trying to slight me over some technicality. By "wagon", of course I mean those who have announced their dislike and intent to potentially vote Amrun, not literally those who only are voting her at that given time.

---

but you wanting chess lynched while him being Vig was still a BIG doubt back then, still seems odd to me.

Rephrase this if you want me to address it.

---

Now regarding the Amrun stuff. I was poised to pounce on her with the inconsistencies in her "okay with a DK lynch", "oops sorry guys" posts. Then, the HT comes out and Amrun claims VIG. Fucking ridiculous. Not so much the HT (although it wasn't needed at that point), but Amrun!!! If you are the vig, then you just cost us our NK. Good job.

Yeah, these are fake emotions.

---

- His vote on Amrun was his first somewhat-justified vote this game. Literally. He hasn't justified any of his other votes at all. You don't think there's any deeper meaning behind this?

Every vote has been justified. I have explained every vote before I moved it.

Even if you don't want to read deeply into this (because it's very easy to interpret this as RC knowing what DK is going to flip), you can at least see that he had every intention of voting Amrun today if DK flipped town.

Yeah, because I probably was. Amrun had moved up my scumlist after she apologized for hammering. I'm not trying to hide that position at all.

---

Unvote

;

vote: don_johnson

(will also gladly support a toffee or HN lynch today, but don gets preference because he's the slickest of the three)

Scumteam of toffee-HN-don if Amrun is the Vig. I changed my view of Muffin because I felt pretty confident that Amrun wasn't the Vig, but after reading the things she's said a little more closely, it seems to be the case that she is. I just found it really difficult to believe that she'd shoot either chess or Surye, but, given that she's in 50 games (or thereabouts), I could understand her perhaps making an oversight in one of them.

Muffin, I hope you realize that the only reason don is patting you on the back and warming up to you is because he's scum. Trust me, man, I've played with this cat a number of times. He's know how to operate.

[zMuffinMan]

What was the purpose in asking so many "rhetorical" questions?

I may have been wrong that not all of your questions were useless, but you linking me to one instance where you asked a question and then used someone's response in some way doesn't really change the overall situation here.

You asked a lot of questions, but didn't use those questions to form cases, or give reads, or anything.

-----

Re: your D1 votes, I want you to explain the following:

In #53 you said you weren't sure whether it was scummy or anti-town, but you were sure that it was worth a vote. I don't really have an issue with this alone, except for the fact that you neglect to really mention any further suspicion of anyone whatsoever until your #169, where you tell us that if the day were to end right now, you'd want CK lynched (which indicates you haven't got a better scum read on anyone in the 168 posts prior to this). Still, this is somewhat contradictory because in the very same post you vote DK, which leads me to the next point...

No, I argued with both DK and toffee a number of times

Right, but almost all of this came after you were already voting them, and you never actually gave very good reasons for your votes. #121 was not an argument with toffee, but I'll acknowledge you did have a conversation with him. #169 was the first time you could be said to have "argued" with either of them, but even then I disagree that you did it here, either (and this was where you voted DK). Actually I don't really see any arguments outside of #198, in which you called bullshit on something DK did and asked toffee to state clearly whether he thought DK was scummy (which is kind of ironic).

Your first DK vote was just you agreeing with Newman - I suppose this was somewhat justified in that you were sheeping here. Your move to toffee had no real reason (other than it's possible DK+toffee are scum together). Your second move to DK was because of his vanilla claim - while that was anti-town of him, you never really told us why you think it was scummy.

The biggest problem I have is that you never once gave any of your reads in an unambiguous way. You never gave town reads. You never gave scum reads. You hinted at one point that you thought toffee+DK could be scum together, but that's about as close as you ever came to giving a read. You never outright said you thought anyone was scum.

-----

Well, if Amrun is actually a Vig. Then the scumteam is going to include you or HN. Given HN's hammer, I suspect he'll be more likely to be scum than you. At the time, I would've said yes, but if Amrun is telling the truth, then no. The scumteam is probably don, HN, and toffee.

Seeing as you've outright neglected to mention smash, should I assume you have a town read on him and you're therefore not even considering the possibility he is scum?

Muffin, I hope you realize that the only reason don is patting you on the back and warming up to you is because he's scum. Trust me, man, I've played with this cat a number of times. He's know how to operate.

But I should trust that you're not doing the same thing, right?

[zMuffinMan]

Yeah, I may have tunnel vision going right now, but you're not really making any sort of case against don other than PoE.

Why did you choose don over toffee?

[RedCoyote]

Don't lynch me yet, Muffin. I have responses for you. We have a lot to talk about.

Quick answer to your last question of why don over toffee is because don is slicker than toffee is. I'd prefer to get rid of him now. toffee is more prone to slipping up tomorrow, I think.

I just can't stick around and write a big post right now.

[zMuffinMan]

I don't really think we have that much to talk about at all, really.

I'm not voting don today unless you find a better reason than him being slick and possibly buddying me. I had a town read on him D1 after reading the thread during N1. It hasn't changed D2. Yeah, I could be wrong here, but I'm not going to vote for him because someone I think is scum is telling me don is scum. You haven't actually given me any reason to think he's scum, or more to the point, you haven't given me any reason to assume you're more likely town than him.

As for whether or not toffee will slip up tomorrow, that's irrelevant. He's virtually guaranteed to be scum at this point. He's the one common denominator in almost everyone suspicions. If it's not a RC lynch today, it's a toffee lynch. Out of don and toffee, toffee is a far better lynch, no matter how you think about it.

But, there are other people I want responses from, too, so UNVOTE: RedCoyote temporarily.

smash promised some sort of RC analysis and toffee needs to weigh in on the recent happenings (he hasn't posted since Amrun's claims as far as I can tell) and give his opinion on the RC wagon.

[RedCoyote]

Given HN's hammer

This is incorrect. It's important that I acknowledge it because this is a big deal. This was my mistake, I went back and looked at farside's last vote count and just went off that. That vote count is actually out of order. HN was on this wagon much earlier than the hammer. Still, if I had to pick between Muffin and HN for scum, I'd lean toward HN. I had more issues with him than I did with nameloc/Muffin.

---

What was the purpose in asking so many "rhetorical" questions?

How do you define "so many"? I mean, I don't understand your aversion to my style here and how this is anything more than just dislike of how I scumhunt. Rhetorical questions are used to make a point. Let me give you an example.

...and you know toffee is "an innocent townie" how?

Obviously DK doesn't know toffee is an innocent townie if he's a townie himself. I was just expanding on why I liked my vote here. I mean, I'm not going to sit here and count which questions are rhetorical and which aren't because I don't think there's anything egregious here. I'm trying to put myself in your shoes (and this is what led me to the allegation of you being unfair), and I just don't see anything I'm doing that's steering the game off course. The only thing that may be arguable is the questions I had for HN, but I just addressed that.

I may have been wrong that not all of your questions were useless, but you linking me to one instance where you asked a question and then used someone's response in some way doesn't really change the overall situation here.

But that's not just one question, you understand. That's a series of questions I asked him over the course of multiple posts and several pages. They all built up to a specific read of HN. Now, I mean, maybe you're better at reading people than I am (which is entirely possible given that my scumhunting abilities aren't anything particularly wonderful), but, you know, that's fortunate for you. I am not as adept at picking up on people unless I get them to engage me in different ways. Of course I work with stuff from other conversations they have with others, but I have my own input as well.

I don't really have an issue with this alone, except for the fact that you neglect to really mention any further suspicion of anyone whatsoever until your #169, where you tell us that if the day were to end right now, you'd want CK lynched (which indicates you haven't got a better scum read on anyone in the 168 posts prior to this).

Well, I disagree. In post 121 I start to open up towards the idea of DK as scum (thanks to chess, no less). I also pressured chess a little bit for being hypocritical in regards to discussing PRs. This post is also where I started having issues with nameloc's weird start to this game. I respond to toffee and I start readying myself for an inevitable argument with Surye (who I think is losing an argument to DH).

I mean, if you want, I can elaborate on everyone of my posts in the context of "mentioning suspicion" of people. It's funny you attack me in this way (I mentioned this earlier, but I just wanted to bring this point up again), because, if anything, people usually get on me for being too harsh or having too sharp of an edge. I'm a brass tacks kind of guy for the most part, maybe my rhetoric can get bloated, but that's usually because I don't get to post throughout the day. I have to kind of cram a lot of activity into one or two posts.

Anyways, we're digressing now, but the point is that I would disagree that I'm not actively working on my suspicions at all times.

#121 was not an argument with toffee, but I'll acknowledge you did have a conversation with him. #169 was the first time you could be said to have "argued" with either of them, but even then I disagree that you did it here, either (and this was where you voted DK). Actually I don't really see any arguments outside of #198, in which you called bullshit on something DK did and asked toffee to state clearly whether he thought DK was scummy (which is kind of ironic).

Well, "argue", "engage", "debate", whatever word you want to use, the point is that I was actively talking to these people and considering their alignments. I'm not going to beleaguer the point though. You either believe me or you don't.

Your first DK vote was just you agreeing with Newman - I suppose this was somewhat justified in that you were sheeping here. Your move to toffee had no real reason (other than it's possible DK+toffee are scum together). Your second move to DK was because of his vanilla claim - while that was anti-town of him, you never really told us why you think it was scummy.

No, see, you're going to have to work with me some, Muffin. When I voted DK the first time, you can look a little bit further up for more in depth reasoning as to why I thought he was the better place to put my vote:

• That chess statement DK made was just flat out spineless. I still don't think I've got a firm answer as to why he got on chess' case earlier, and I shudder to think it's from an ongoing game that chess hasn't flipped in yet. That's just silly.

My toffee vote, admittedly, is a little more subtle, but it nonetheless had rationale behind it. It stemmed from this:

• So, does anyone want to lynch toffee for being the common denominator?

There was a wagon growing on toffee (DH and Scott were both on the wagon, both of whom I liked as townies), plus I had already gotten a bad vibe from the way she criticized my vote of chess (which I said was unlike the way SSSS did, where it seemed more townish).

And, yes, my last DK vote was almost wholly because of his claim. It was just a cherry on the top that he was scummy sounding to begin with. At that point, though, it didn't matter whether he was scummy or not. The claim trumped anything else, especially in this kind of a setup. Perhaps you disagree with that (and I wouldn't be surprised given that most mafia players have an inflated sense of their own abilities to successfully hunt scum on D1), but I'll live and die by the policy of preserving the integrity of the town's PR claims above all else on D1.

Seeing as you've outright neglected to mention smash, should I assume you have a town read on him and you're therefore not even considering the possibility he is scum?

Oh, it's possible, but, like you deduced, I have a fairly strong townread on him right now.

But I should trust that you're not doing the same thing, right?

Who, little ol' me? Why, I'd never do anything to trick you. Perish the thought.

I'm not voting don today unless you find a better reason than him being slick and possibly buddying me.

You're a very literal guy, you know that? No, but this is actually pretty reasonable of you. Of course I don't expect you to just accept that he's scum because I told you so. My head is working a mile a minute trying to rethink this game over again. I would tell you though, since you seem interested, to look back over don's little vote jumping today from me to Amrun and back again. That's just him trying to assess which "town faction", for lack of a better term, will get him the quickest mislynch. He thought that Amrun might actually get it for a second.

He's virtually guaranteed to be scum at this point. He's the one common denominator in almost everyone suspicions.

If it's not a RC lynch today, it's a toffee lynch.

Does not compute.

But I agree with the point that toffee would probably be an easier lynch to coalesce around. It will just keep the scumteam a little bit stronger going into tomorrow is all, but I understand I'm speaking from a position of being, in your eyes, the more likely scum candidate than don is. Honestly I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek with you when I said don was slicker than toffee. I didn't mean that in the sense that those should be valid grounds with which

you

would cast a vote against him for. I was answering more along the lines of why

I

was voting don over toffee, not why you should (although you're welcome to take my word for it).

[zMuffinMan]

The major issue I have with your play (that you still haven't addressed in a way that I think is adequate) is the lack of reads from you in this game. I didn't see you pushing any cases D1, just latching onto others' cases, and even then, you didn't explicitly state that you found the people you were voting for scummy. I saw you say you liked or disliked a few things, I never saw you say you thought someone was town or scum. Even with HN, I saw you agreeing with him after a "series" of questions, but I never actually saw you say you thought he was town.

With no "reads", you had no obligations, no real accountability. Saying you "like" something, saying something is "spineless", etc does not count as giving reads. And I know you know this, because you asked toffee to give a

clear

read on DK. But you never gave clear reads of your own.

Also, your questioning of players in the game fits the bill of scum not wanting to properly engage anyone, but still wanting to appear to be scum hunting (essentially coasting). You asking "rhetorical" questions reinforces this idea in my mind.

Oh, it's possible, but, like you deduced, I have a fairly strong townread on [smash] right now.

Why didn't you mention this town read before now?

I would tell you though, since you seem interested, to look back over don's little vote jumping today from me to Amrun and back again. That's just him trying to assess which "town faction", for lack of a better term, will get him the quickest mislynch. He thought that Amrun might actually get it for a second.

Oh, I took note of that. I hated him doing that, because a lynch on Amrun is stupid, regardless of whether you believe her claim. But you were just as happy to have Amrun lynched after her claim.

I think I know why he did it, but I'd still like to hear from him why he hopped between RC->Amrun->unvote->RC.

But I agree with the point that toffee would probably be an easier lynch to coalesce around. It will just keep the scumteam a little bit stronger going into tomorrow is all, but I understand I'm speaking from a position of being, in your eyes, the more likely scum candidate than don is. Honestly I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek with you when I said don was slicker than toffee. I didn't mean that in the sense that those should be valid grounds with which you would cast a vote against him for. I was answering more along the lines of why I was voting don over toffee, not why you should (although you're welcome to take my word for it).

The problem here is, if you're town, it's your job to convince the rest of us to vote with you. Your vote on don is essentially useless unless you can convince other people he's scum.

Also, pushing a toffee lynch while trying to convince Amrun (who I'm just going to assume is the vig now) that you're town and don is scum would be the smarter option today. I'm pretty tired right now, so I'm not sure how much of this actually made sense. Will have to look at this again when I'm awake.