Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den - Endgame

[WrathChild]

Ok, had to stay home with sick kids today. I caught up and I'm starting to get a bad feeling about the Beefster lynch. I must say though that it's incredibly frustrating when some one like Beefster thinks it's OK just half-ass it all game. I plan on exploring the derail from Beef Wagon to Amrun when I have a bit more time.

Also, that being said I also wanted to propose a plan:

We obviously have a handful of lurkers here. We won't get much information from a lurker lynch, but perhaps we could all make a pact/vote to attack one or more specific lurkers tonight. If we get 5-7 people to attacking the same lurker with their damage attacks, we can have a pretty good chance of killing a lurker and not wasting the information we gain lynching a scummy active player.

The only issue I am not sure about in this plan is if coordinating a combined strike against scum would be easily preventable by the scum faction.

[SGRaaize]

I'm gonna do another reread soon, have been very tired. But before this whole shitstorm started, I definately didn't see a reason to vote either Beefster or Amrun. Will have to do a more proper reread and ISO them both this time.

[inHimshallibe]

Couple of people tossed gand's name out there, none have joined me. Let's explore the green one a bit further.

No lets explore Amrun a bit further. You tossed out that you weren't too happy with her a few pages back regarding the Beef wagon. Where are you now?

unvote
vote: Icey
unvote
vote: Amrun

Right there with ya.

[LimMePls]

Ok, had to stay home with sick kids today. I caught up and I'm starting to get a bad feeling about the Beefster lynch. I must say though that it's incredibly frustrating when some one like Beefster thinks it's OK just half-ass it all game. I plan on exploring the derail from Beef Wagon to Amrun when I have a bit more time.

Also, that being said I also wanted to propose a plan:

We obviously have a handful of lurkers here. We won't get much information from a lurker lynch, but perhaps we could all make a pact/vote to attack one or more specific lurkers tonight. If we get 5-7 people to attacking the same lurker with their damage attacks, we can have a pretty good chance of killing a lurker and not wasting the information we gain lynching a scummy active player.

The only issue I am not sure about in this plan is if coordinating a combined strike against scum would be easily preventable by the scum faction.

I don't think WC has had an original thought all game.

[Feysal]

Sorry about being so quiet this week, I sort of took a timeout from this game to catch up in another game I replaced in, and now it is looking like I'll need to catch up with this one after I'm done. Noticed the thread title had changed, looked into moderator posts for an explanation, and saw that Pine was dead and flipped town. Not really surprised there. I hope the fifteen pages since Monday aren't all about that, I'm not looking forward to delving into that pile if that is the case.

Anyway, I'm currently too far behind to make a meaningful post. I'll be back when I'm up to date on my reading and know what is happening, hopefully soon.

[CryMeARiver]

Before I read the last 5 pages, I'd like to say arguing a lot of a day 1 lynch in a S_B SitMOA game is ridiculous. Anyone whose played in or read the games prior knows that after today, the game is going to be more based on PR abilities and swinginess more than discussion and strict scumhunting.

[Beefster]

^ Yay! I can be lazy! ^

[WrathChild]

Ok, had to stay home with sick kids today. I caught up and I'm starting to get a bad feeling about the Beefster lynch. I must say though that it's incredibly frustrating when some one like Beefster thinks it's OK just half-ass it all game. I plan on exploring the derail from Beef Wagon to Amrun when I have a bit more time.

Also, that being said I also wanted to propose a plan:

We obviously have a handful of lurkers here. We won't get much information from a lurker lynch, but perhaps we could all make a pact/vote to attack one or more specific lurkers tonight. If we get 5-7 people to attacking the same lurker with their damage attacks, we can have a pretty good chance of killing a lurker and not wasting the information we gain lynching a scummy active player.

The only issue I am not sure about in this plan is if coordinating a combined strike against scum would be easily preventable by the scum faction.

I don't think WC has had an original thought all game.

There is a subtle but important difference between the original plan and mine.

I say we lynch active scummy players and mass-attack scummy lurkers. The original plan did not differentiate between scummy actives and scummy lurkers. This is an important difference because lynching active scummies provides us with significant information, while lynching scummy lurkers pretty much leaves us in the dark.

This way we get to eliminate scummy lurkers with out wasting the information we get on a lynch.

[CryMeARiver]

^ Yay! I can be lazy! ^

This general care free play makes me think Beefy is town.

[Beefster]

You got that right. Thanks for reminding me why I signed up for this game.

[Snow_Bunny]

Votecount

1- CryMeARiver

[Healthy]

(0)
2- gandalf5166

[Healthy]

(1) - Amrun
3- chesskid3

[Healthy]

(0) -
4- Albert B. Rampage

[Healthy]

(0) -
5- Riceballtail

[Healthy]

(1) - Dryfit
6- Katy

[Healthy]

(0)
7- Bunnylover

[Healthy]

(0) -
8- IceyCupcake

[Healthy]

(0)
9- Amrun

[Healthy]

(4) - Zdenek, ABR, Beefster, inHimshallibe
10- Dry-fit

[Healthy]

(0)
11- SnakePlissken

[Healthy]

(0) -
12- WrathChild

[Healthy]

(1) - chesskid3,
13- Soben

[Healthy]

(2) - implosion, SnakePlissken
14- Beefster

[Healthy]

(4) - LynchMePls, ManaKu, BabySpice, gandalf5166
15- PeregrineV

[Healthy]

(0)
16- BabySpice

[Healthy]

(0) -
17- LynchMePls

[Healthy]

(1) - Riceballtail
18- Zdenek

[Healthy]

(0)
19- Mana_Ku

[Healthy]

(0) -
20- inHimshallibe

[Healthy]

(1) - Feysal
21- SGRaaize

[Healthy]

(0) -
22- implosion

[Healthy]

(2) - SGRaaize, Katy
23- Feysal

[Healthy]

(0)
Mod- Snow_Bunny

[Healthy]

(1) - Bunnylover

Not voting (5): PeregrineV, WrathChild, IceyCupcake, CryMeARiver, Soben

With 23 alive, it takes 12 to lynch.

Deadline is on June 9th at midnight (GMT -5)

[WrathChild]

Beef is bugging me so much.

His content is pretty much:

"I'm lazy"
"I'm Town"
"I'm gonna continue to be lazy town"
"You think I'm scum? YOU ARE!"
"You think I'm town? YEAH ME! TOLD YOU!"

[Katy]

I've been wavering on Amrun

In what instances did you favor her as scum and what changed your mind?

When she kept asking every single person what they thought of Beefster regardless of the topic of conversation, I thought it was a little weird, like trying to get other people to make a case on him instead of herself. But her interaction with chesskid and her continued conversation with Beefster pushed me back the other way. She seemed prepared to respond to him directly instead of just continue to ask people what they thought of him, which is a townier way to tunnel on someone, if you must. At this point I'm not sure, but I'm still leaning town. She's responding pretty well to the pressure from multiple players and I don't think she's being as snitty as you think she is. Just ... internet, ya know.

If their is an ability that is killing off people if they claim, it would obviously belong to the mod. Reason of this thinking is because in OoT mafia, the mods were able to auto hammer masons if they were put at L-1. I really think we should lynch Snow_Bunny and therefore have a chance at claiming.

What? Is this a joke or what? You really think Snow_Bunny would let us go against her intent by lynching her? Have you been paying attention to her mod posts. We should all just move past the claiming thing. We are going to play this game without that crutch, as intended. What was the point of this speculation?

Beef is bugging me so much.

His content is pretty much:

"I'm lazy"
"I'm Town"
"I'm gonna continue to be lazy town"
"You think I'm scum? YOU ARE!"
"You think I'm town? YEAH ME! TOLD YOU!"

But does that mean he is scummy? Or just exactly what he says he is?

[CryMeARiver]

Amrun I think you're pretty cool, and we're the same age and all, but you're SCUMMY. Very very scummy.

So I think I'm going to stick my vote to you and see if other people hop on or we will lynch someone else. 32 pages is already too much for Day 1.

You basically have to admit that Beefster's attacks were terrible. He's even admitted that.

He said, "You have circular logic and vote people in the same post." I didn't have circular logic and didn't vote people in the same post except voting Icey which everyone has done, but he votes people in the same post all the time.

Then he adds on a lot of other stuff which he can't substantiate either, culminating in, "Scum read the thread and town don't, so Amrun is scum."

He said his initial bad attacks were reaction fishing, and just this page or a page ago he admitted he lied about that. He's backtracked so many times.

Detailing to him why his attacks are incorrect isn't scummy. Telling me I'm scum because I read the thread IS a pathetic, reaching attack and that's just all there is to it.

I'm stuck at "dumb or scum" and I've been leaning scum all day, but lately, I've been reconsidering. Perhaps I'll be moving him to the dumb category when I re-read.

But please do tell me how debunking someone's terrible attack is scummy. I'd have done it no matter who he attacked, but it happened to be me. Either way it shouldn't matter.

Don't you love how his points make little sense and his general play is off, yet he still reads as scum and you as town?
Simply put:

To be clear, Amrun doesn't annoy me, I feel that her emotional outbursts are off-putting and I can view them as dishonest. She strikes me as scum.

Interesting.
Mod- Snow_Bunny [Healthy] (1) - Bunnylover
If their is an ability that is killing off people if they claim, it would obviously belong to the mod. Reason of this thinking is because in OoT mafia, the mods were able to auto hammer masons if they were put at L-1. I really think we should lynch Snow_Bunny and therefore have a chance at claiming. Although this is all

Huh. Imagine that.

No, I haven't. Should I?

What was this in response to?

I was definitely town in Open 298.

My scum games are Execution Mafia, New Designers Mafia, and X-Files Mafia, in order of most recent to least recent.

The way you stated this is reminiscent of the gambler's fallacy. (You suggest that because you were scum in so many games, you couldn't

possibly

be scum again.) Were you town in any other games?

I'm not liking your reactions to ABR's questions. You really look like you're trying to hide something. Your responses are far to deliberate and un-genuine.

This is bad. But yet he's still town.

I just read something that makes me think you're town.

Will you say what?

Not today.

I'm on the fence about gandalf. He has done some things I see as town and some scummy things. But after a wagon forms on him, I've always (so far) gotten a correct read on him.

Such as?

What? Is this a joke or what? You really think Snow_Bunny would let us go against her intent by lynching her? Have you been paying attention to her mod posts. We should all just move past the claiming thing. We are going to play this game without that crutch, as intended. What was the point of this speculation?

Why would S_B allow herself to be voted then?

[CryMeARiver]

Still in the Material World

1- CryMeARiver - Town
2- gandalf5166
3- chesskid3 - Town
4- Albert B. Rampage - Town
5- Riceballtail - Lurker
6- Katy - ProbTown
7- Bunnylover -ProbTown/3rd Party trying to get the mod lynched (why not?)
8- IceyCupcake - Town/Who gives a crap if he's a 3rd party
9- Amrun
10- Dry-fit - Somewhat Lurker, but I'm thinking Town still
11- SnakePlissken - Lurker
12- WrathChild - Town
13- Soben - Town (Sounds like a married couple)
14- Beefster - Town
15- PeregrineV - Lurker
16- BabySpice
17- LynchMePls
18- Zdenek - Town
19- Mana_Ku - Town
20- inHimshallibe - ProbTown
21- SGRaaize - Town
22- implosion
23- Feysal

[Amrun]

CMAR: If Beefster reads as scum and me as town, then nothing you have said makes sense - and yet, that's what you said. And what does "such as?" refer to?

Beefster: Once again, please read. I provided my scum games completed on this site since Soben was confused about it. I have been town in plenty of games more recent than that, which are all in my wiki, open to public consumption. Stop pretending I'm not directly responding to people when it's obvious I am.

[CryMeARiver]

CMAR: If Beefster reads as scum and me as town, then nothing you have said makes sense - and yet, that's what you said. And what does "such as?" refer to?

Beefster: Once again, please read. I provided my scum games completed on this site since Soben was confused about it. I have been town in plenty of games more recent than that, which are all in my wiki, open to public consumption. Stop pretending I'm not directly responding to people when it's obvious I am.

Definitely a typo.
Supposed to be "him as town and you as scum". Good call.

The "such as" refers to the "I've seen some town things and some scum things out of him"

[Amrun]

I pointed out AT least one scummy thing gandalf did. More will have to wait until my computer decides to stay on for longer than 5 minutes ata time.

[CryMeARiver]

Note to people:
If you fill HP or grant more HP, I would greatly appreciate it and put it to great use (a use besides the obvious having more health)

[Soben]

Still in the Material World

13- Soben - Town (Sounds like a married couple)

Fine with me as long as I wear the pants. Speaking of which

unvote, vote Soben

Feels like I just slapped a bitch.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Scumhunter why do you treat Regfan like a bitch and call him a faggot?

Unvote Amrun

I like where CMAR is going with this, I'm likely going to vote someone on his list next.

[Soben]

unvote

Its my repressed homosexuality mostly Albert. Regfan whines and complains about near everything, so its fun to mess with him. Also, our hydra QT this game is LOL funny.

[implosion]

Implosion, what's your thoughts on the Amrum vs Beefster argument?

Not much, frankly. I don't find it particularly notable. Or at least I didn't at this point of writing this post. Now that I'm reading over the post, Beef looks fairly bad. Not sure if it's from this particular argument. There's plenty to look at though.

OK, All caught up. I about to drop my vote on Pine. Meta defense is WIFOM and AtE. Threatening to self-hammer/give up is crap. If you know you're town don't freakin get yourself lynched. Our #1 priority is to kill scum, if you are town and resign yourself to a lynch, you deny your team an opportunity to do so.

This is a bad conflation of anti-town and scum. Selfvoting (or threatening to do so) is obviously anti-town; AtE is probably anti-town; however, if this was your reasoning for justifying a Pine vote, then this reasoning is terrible; just because someone acts anti-town, it does not mean that they are scum, as I explained earlier. You have to look at intentions and whether or not a given appeal looks genuine or contrived.

Im back, I need to read back properly (Ive skimmed thus far) but Pine's claim for self voting is horrible. I learned my lesson from that, I don't care what situation you are in

self voting is scummy whether you are town or not.

Bolded emphasis is mine - how can something be scummy when you admit that it can come from either alignment? Something is defined as scummy if it is indicative that the alignment of the person in question is scum. How can something be scummy "whether someone is town or not?" If it can come from town or scum, why pay attention to it at all?

@Implosion
Your wallpost is terrible. You mentioned that you were hydra-hunting, because there was little to go on. But in that same post, you agreed with Pine that there was scum on the SGR-wagon, which already existed when you looked at the hydra. This needs an explanation.

I explained this at the end of post 447.

First of all, if you think Icey is town, why aren't you voting for them before you vote for other people. Secondly, THE RULES SAY SO. If a faction wins and their wincon doesn't directly conflict(which a wincon of getting voted for WOULD NOT) then the game gos on as normal.

Well... actually, i did vote for them. Did you accuse me of not voting for them without actually checking to see if I had voted for them, or did you somehow miss it? Also, you're really stretching what's written in the rules. The rules just state that the game will keep on. They don't state that the game will keep on as if nothing happened. Assumptions like this reek of scum who either has extra knowledge (probably not in this case) or just wants to make assumptions like this so that they can more easily defend positions without having to consider the ramifications if said assumptions could be wrong.

I think it would be wise to focus on other players for now. It's nice to use D1 as an information day. If we get through other players and still think Pine is scum, then we can vote him for real.

What did you mean here by "get through other players?" Why would we push on other players to the extent where we could force them to claim just to go back to pine?

I've been missing some from skimming, but I'm in agreement with pressure on beef at this point. His attack on Pine didn't look good either. A lot of the attacks on pine were really bad, actually.

On page 22. Will do more tomorrow. I'll probably wind up catching up a bit every day and then do everything on the weekend, unless I can stop delaying this and actually do it at a reasonable hour of the day.

[SGRaaize]

unvote

Its my repressed homosexuality mostly Albert. Regfan whines and complains about near everything, so its fun to mess with him. Also, our hydra QT this game is LOL funny.

I'm hoping you show it after the end of this game, sounds pretty fun.

[Bunnylover]

Claim mason from chesskid = WIFOM. If anyone else had hinted at them been mason, I probably would have taken it more seriously, but since its chesskid......can you take a lot of what he says seriously? Basically im not sure if he was serious or not, which it doesn't matter as I probably wouldn't lynch CK3 today regardless if he is a mason or not.

I've confirmed it ._. Normally, I wouldn't have liked it, had Chess played like that. But he had a good reason to do so.

After the recent posts, two new players stood out to me. One is lucky that he/she read town to me at the start. The other though...
Chess, we need to talk ._.

Whoops, missed you confirming it. My bad D:.

@Katy: If the mod is the one killing off people who claimed (therefore making it a in-game ability and not a modkill), why would it be bad to kill the mod off? The only way I can see it bad is if you are scum/anti third party, but I rather give you the benefit of the doubt.