Open 307-Friends and Enemies Deadly Alliance-Town Wins!!

[popsofctown]

Toro and Snarky. Those two are pretty much it. Both have read other posters posts in a way that borders on willfully ignorant, Toro: zmuffins refusal to lynch goons:: Snarky: the significance of DK's self vote (or rather lack thereof). Snarky has been incoherent and seems to have no willful desire to determine who is scum and move the town towards stringing that person up, particularly his last post. Toro was really just trying too hard on DKlynch. In his OP he says, "Oh, when I started reading the thread I thought Spadille was being silly, but then I saw DK was actually scummy". I find that rather implausible. Spadille stuck on to DK's silliness early on. If you didn't follow him then, you wouldn't have wanted to follow him later, DK's play improved, Spadille renounced the strength of his scumread, and most of Spadille's later motivation for attack DK was confirmation bias which replacementToro wouldn't have had if he started out pro DK.

Both Snarky and Toro are incredibly scummy for getting off the DK wagon now. DK's last few posts have been craptastic, and he has recently claimed VT. It was hard for my own read on DK to tolerate that behavior, let alone someone who was already anti-DK. DK's play isn't what has changed here. It's how many necks it costs to attack DK right now.

[popsofctown]

(Editor's note: Both Snarky and Toro browsed in here after I posted #423 and silence)

You're quite a power user aren't you

[[Low Key]]

Wow very insightful. Your post also reminded me of how CJ started off voting Spadille, forgot to even put in ANY reads for Snarky and then *presto* insta-Snarky scum when asked for his Snarky reads.

pedit: Well the silence was deafening.

[Archaist]

First, a response to DeityKabuto's #242:

Who am I? I am a big-shot. I have about a decade (10-games) experience of playing Mafia

So you've been playing mafia since you were 6 years old? Your profile says you're 16. Lynch all liars?

Who I am 100% Sure Is Scum:
Who I suspect to be Scum:
Who I suspect to be Town:
Who I am 100% Sure Is Town:

You shouldn't be 100% sure of anyone if your vanilla townie claim is true.

Archaist - You only post every now and then, I am not certain that you are interested in this game which is why I'm not 100% sure of you being scum. But, when you do post, it's only to attack me, and it's like you haven't read everything so far, and you don't have much of a clue what's going on.

You must have missed my post where I gave my reads of every player, or else you wouldn't say I only attack you... oh wait, you commented on that post so you couldn't have missed it. You're my top suspect so of course you will be my main focus. I will examine others in this post however.

I think my list of reasons is quite sufficient. Your "case" against me consists mainly of your claim that my vote is not sufficiently backed up. I think this handily disproves that, and I challenge you to find any other player with five reasons for their vote. However, I will thank you for making me realize that while I have three reasons to vote zMuffinMan, I have six to vote you.

I beg to differ.

And... that's it? You seriously are trying to refute all 6 of my points by saying "I beg to differ?" This confirms my earlier statements that you don't bother to respond to the actual points against you. You request 5 points from me but you can't even measure up to your own standards.

What I want to see from Archaist: More content, more scumhunting, stop posting just to comment on my attacks. You aren't contributing to this game, you appear scummy enough.

What I want to see from DeityKabuto: actual responses to the points against you rather than dismissing them with "I beg to differ." Could you find other players who gave 5 reasons for their votes? Did you have 5 reasons for voting whenever you did so? Do you have dual standards? I can answer that last one for you. I will comment on others in this post, because there has been a lot going on.

Normally,

a townie would remain "cool" and not be that offended

about their attackers, play it casually,

yet all of you whiners are over-reacting

, it's just a game. You guys and your over reacting is a scum tell. Especially, Spadile.

Your posts are more emotional

You are about to make me lose my temper. You just fucking subbed in! You really don't have a clue about what is fucking going on in the game, I doubt you've read every shred of posts, so until then, you're dead to me. KTHX.

Once again!

You are guilty of your own scum tells

. This is so obviously dual standards I can't believe no one else has commented on it.

Right now, how I would go about the town being at odds is I would have Snarky lynched, and have the Vigilante either lynch (Toro, Spadile, or ZMuffinMan)

zMuffinMan? The guy who you so vigorously attacked me for because I labeled him possible scum? You're contradicting yourself, again.

-----------

Toro makes a point about zMuffinMan defending DK, a point I've made before. Re-reading however it's not zMuffinMan's defense of DK that stands out to me, it's DK's defense of zMuffinMan. DK seemed really upset that I said zMuffinMan could be scum, even though I gave three reasons DK only focused on one. DK also said he wants zMuffinMan to lead scumhunting, but then makes a distancing attempt by listing him as a vig target.

-----------

Ok I am having trouble understanding this post but what I can get from it is that you think scum could quick hammer someone while we're waiting for the vig on our top wagon.

Once our top wagon is at L-1 a notice should be posted that if anyone quickhammers they are auto-lynched tomorrow. There is no harm done as we get scum the next day and got our top wagon lynched anyway.

You have stated several times that "if the scum have the vig they won't follow our plan". Ok I have asked you several times now, but here is a rephrase:

Since we will then discover that the scum actually have the day-vig (which we didn't know before) how exactly is that harmful or bad for the town?

I didn't want to say this until the issue actually came up, since it could lead to WIFOM, but there seems to be enough confusion over it: If the vig does not take out the L-1 target, we learn more than what you suggest. This is all assuming a town vig agrees with the plan. If the scum have the vig, they wouldn't hesitate to use it if the L-1 target was a townie.

Therefore, if the vig doesn't act, we can assume that both the scum have the vig

and

the L-1 target is scum

, since scum wouldn't take out their team mate. Hopefully this will convince the vig, if they are a townie, that they should act today. Vig, if you are town, please realize going with this line of thought provides a lot more info.

-----------

I am tired of Spadile effing' V/LA'ing until Wensday to avoid suspicion

Attacking someone over V/LA is incredibly scummy. Give your fellow players the benefit of the doubt when it comes to this. Stuff comes up.

-----------

And, for the record, this is how I prefer people explain their cases, instead of just calling something scummy

Like how you did in your #105?

-----------

I didn't feel like I would have to explain how DK isn't being a survivalist.. He put himself in the spotlight from the getgo by selfvoting. He retained the spotlight by strutting when he was attacked, saying his selfvote was operating on some higher level of scumhunting no one else understands. (I agree with muffins, he has funny posts).

OK, I see your point, thanks for clarifying. I was thinking that his emotional ad hominem attacks and cursing at people was a desperate survival attempt to get people off his wagon.

-----------

I got a better idea. Vig vigges Toro, and if I'm right about Toro, you get off the DK wagon.

How's that sound?

Some of Toro's attacks are indeed a reach.

the fact he was reaching on DK for that supposed scumslip is textbook scum and almost makes me believe there is no doubt in my mind of him being scum

But is that one scumslip lynch/vig worthy compared to everything else that's been going on so far? zMuffinMan's confidence is somewhat inspiring however.

-----------

@[Low Key]: Your change of heart on DK was very sudden. From being to eager to vig/lynch/sing kumbaya to going after Toro and not even mentioning DK as part of your theoretical scum team. What was the main thing that caused this change? You agree with Snarky's meta analysis? I don't think your reasons in #401 are stronger than the case against DK. popsofctown gives a much more convincing argument in the recent #425.

[[Low Key]]

I didn't want to say this until the issue actually came up, since it could lead to WIFOM, but there seems to be enough confusion over it: If the vig does not take out the L-1 target, we learn more than what you suggest. This is all assuming a town vig agrees with the plan. If the scum have the vig, they wouldn't hesitate to use it if the L-1 target was a townie.

Therefore, if the vig doesn't act, we can assume that both the scum have the vig

and

the L-1 target is scum

, since scum wouldn't take out their team mate. Hopefully this will convince the vig, if they are a townie, that they should act today. Vig, if you are town, please realize going with this line of thought provides a lot more info.

There is actually more to the picture (pretty big thing) but I can't discuss it until the vig shot is processed.

@[Low Key]: Your change of heart on DK was very sudden. From being to eager to vig/lynch/sing kumbaya to going after Toro and not even mentioning DK as part of your theoretical scum team. What was the main thing that caused this change? You agree with Snarky's meta analysis? I don't think your reasons in #401 are stronger than the case against DK. popsofctown gives a much more convincing argument in the recent #425.

Yes this is true. I am in fact suprised that neither Snarky nor Toro actually brought this up. I will describe my overall game plan:

My analysis on DK was all 100% genuine. My plan was to push for his vig which I felt was good for the town regardless of his actual alignment. I felt he could easily flip scum and easily not, but either way he had to go.

My plan was to begin a strong scum hunting push after his vig from a pool of 5 people:

Muffin, Toro, CJ, Snarky, DJ

I was certain that there would be scum in that list. While DK was at L-1, I began to talk to Muffin. Muffin said a couple of things to me that made me sure he was actually town and brought me to remove his name from the pool of five. At that point it was like someone turned on a light in a dark room and I realized that we had this game cracked wide open.

Once I examined the interactions of the remaining evil four, it became pretty clear to me which three we should be looking at.

The process will begin with Toro flipping scum by vig.

Also on my Toro case, I haven't actually formulated the whole thing like an actual case but you can see the bare bones of it there. I would say that Toro is more subtle as scum and I have caught him hiding things and actually acting badly with a scum purpose. My case on DK was basically "too scummy to be scum" + "severe town liability in several ways". I prefer the subtle scum cases to the overt ones. I too wanted to see if he would flip scum and shed light on Muffin but we have a much better way now.

[Toro]

Sorry that I appeared active LK, I've been catching up on Open 309 with starting my notes and whatnot.

[[Low Key]]

Oh, there is something else about Muffin that I cannot disclose at this time but I will at some point.

[[Low Key]]

Ok Toro, then I'm sorry and I apologize for that.

[popsofctown]

That's cause I'm a bawss. (anyone who gets the joke gets 5 gold stars)


Snarky, come on; post.

@Toro: figured, you've been appearing active all day, I doubted you're such a slow reader. I never saw Snarky's activity though, and depending on length it could have some degree of meaning.

[popsofctown]

Low Key, why do you want Toro vigged rather than Snarky or DonJosh

[Toro]

Both Snarky and Toro are incredibly scummy for getting off the DK wagon now. DK's last few posts have been craptastic, and he has recently claimed VT. It was hard for my own read on DK to tolerate that behavior, let alone someone who was already anti-DK. DK's play isn't what has changed here. It's how many necks it costs to attack DK right now.

Did you read my reasoning for taking my vote OFF DK? (Don't read why I put it ON cj)

@LK: The whole not realizing DK stood for DeityKabuto sounded as if it was an excuse to jump on the wagon, more later gotta go eat.

[[Low Key]]

Also, for the record, Muffin is an

expert

player. I don't know who his alt is but I suspect he is a vet that goes back several years. The notion that he would defend DK as his scum partner just absolutely does not compute in any way shape or form.

[[Low Key]]

Low Key, why do you want Toro vigged rather than Snarky or DonJosh

It is the first step in confirming Muffin's alignment.

[[Low Key]]

Also, btw I have meta on Muffin where he

does

defend other townies as town.

[popsofctown]

You said muffin and Kabuto are connected toro, and said that somehow makes you want to lynch neither. If it makes sense, it's beyond me. Town muffin can ignorantly defend scumDK, and presumably that's what you felt was the case from the outset because muffin had been defending DK since before you replaced in.

Again, the causes are too much climate change, too little re-analysis of the targets.

[popsofctown]

I hate having a job. Now I have to go three or more waking hours without checking mafiascum. I'll go mad.

[Archaist]

That's cause I'm a bawss. (anyone who gets the joke gets 5 gold stars)

"Like a Boss" music video by Lonely Island.

@[Low Key] Thanks for clarifying. Your position is looking a lot better to me now. zMuffinMan is looking less scummy to me than in my previous read, though I still can't figure out DK's position on him. Certainly a Toro vig/lynch would confirm a lot about zMuffinMan, and perhaps parabollocks too.

[[Low Key]]

Oh, fun fact: My "kumbaya" posting had a dual meaning. Of course it meant we all vig DK but it ALSO meant "ignore other scummy behavior for the moment until the vig happens"; i.e. just sing and deal with it after.

[popsofctown]

No, it's not a reference to that obscene video. They didn't invent the word.

[popsofctown]

Snarky you're browsing again. post.

[[Low Key]]

That's cause I'm a bawss. (anyone who gets the joke gets 5 gold stars)

"Like a Boss" music video by Lonely Island.

@[Low Key] Thanks for clarifying. Your position is looking a lot better to me now. zMuffinMan is looking less scummy to me than in my previous read, though I still can't figure out DK's position on him. Certainly a Toro vig/lynch would confirm a lot about zMuffinMan, and perhaps parabollocks too.

Ya, its gonna be hard sometimes to figure out DK. I think Pops will look good with Toro scum too.

Have you noticed? Toro doesn't sound anything like a town-aligned person should when suspected by town.

[popsofctown]

Snarky. You're not in any other open games. come on.

[Snarky]

@@@Snarky:

DK and Toro go off to visit Mars. Who would your next scum pick be and why?

CJ and Spadille, as explained in my earlier reads. Now can you stop this? If you ceased posting like mads it would have took me less time to post. Oh yeah and just a reminder I'm still on DK's wagon, and, as I said, meta analysis did not clear him to me for his scummy actions. It's just Toro-scum flip who would give me some trouble believing DK could actually be scum. Or maybe Toro tried to bus his bad scumpartner? Maybe... but there's low probability IMO. However, if Toro flips town, well, DK still is at the top of myy scum list.

[[Low Key]]

Thanks for clearing that up Snarky.

[popsofctown]

I'm eager to find out if that's because you know Toro will flip town.

Snarky, claim or die. I want to shoot you.

Shooting Toro doesn't give anyone any info about me. Toro's death has became a near certainty. On a Snarky town flip, I'll happily vote Toro, I think he's almost as likely to be scum as Snarky. Maybe more even, but a Snarky scum flip clears me and Toro both, a Toro scum flip doesn't clear me.