Newbie 1103: Just Another Chaotic Town (Game Over)

TripMyWire · Post Post #350 (ISO) » Wed May 25, 2011 4:40 am

Elsa von Spielburg wrote:As for TMW's 330... I don't even know where to start with that. While TMW fundamentally disagrees with my read of Fire, and that itself is not scummy, I'm still not sold on his reasoning for voting. Is it because he was part of the Staeg lynch? So were 4 other people! Is it because Fire thought Staeg was scum and his lynch
would yield the most information? Well, yeah, that's what voting and lynching is for.
I'm failing to see your specific case other than "he let a townie die!"

Can I say gut? Thor voted because of gut and you're not pressuring him about his vote. It's pretty obvious that I've been suspicious of Firestorm this whole game... I've made no secret of it.
The section I put in bold in your quote makes a lot of sense to me. You are absolutely right. We need information and apparently he did feel that Staeg was scummy... but he made it clear only after Staeg was lynched, and after admitting that his vote was initially just to get reactions. Firestorm is out of danger now, and since he's still my main suspect I'll leave my vote on him.

My other reads:
Scumhunter - Null/scum. Fairly neutral. At first his playing style of sitting it out in the beginning and then becoming active once the arguing has already been going strikes me as a good way for scum to cover themselves. However, the more he posts the more town he seems.

Thor - Still null but I'm wary of him, mostly because he's the IC.

Meransiel - From post 291::

TripMyWire wrote:
He's a tough one for me. I was never suspicious up until he put the L-1 on Scumhunter. His defensiveness and short-tempered responses to me struck me as too hostile to be scum... if that makes sense. He was clearly having problems with me but I didn't think it was scummy. His 47-hour disappearance during day one made me raise an eyebrow as it had been out of character for him... but I'm not sure if it's worth being viewed as scummy.

His vote on Scumhunter (making 2 votes) to get things moving was a bit surprising to me... he said he had no reading on him in post #206, though he did put him at L-1 earlier. I wonder what his new reasons are for voting Scumhunter other than just to get things moving.

Quilford and Elsa - Town. They are very much the same to me. Quilford has never struck me as anything but town. Elsa seems to be town as well. Her posts are like Quilford's where they aren't numerous, but when they come they do have substance.

Thor665 wrote:If you're town...is this helping?

No. But I'm trying. And learning.

I'll try to do some serious scumhunting when I get off work.

Equinox · Post Post #351 (ISO) » Wed May 25, 2011 4:42 am

Vote Count 2.04Scumhunter (2) - Meransiel, FireStorm
FireStorm (1) - TripMyWire
Meransiel (1) - Thor665
TripMyWire (1) - Elsa von Spielburg

Not Voting (2) - Scumhunter, Quilford

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

The deadline is Sunday, June 12, 2011, at 11:59 PM EDT (UTC-4).

Mod Notes

Flavor for Day 1 and Night 1 scenes are done if you read that stuff.

Scumhunter · Post Post #352 (ISO) » Wed May 25, 2011 6:05 am

Thor, mostly because Elsa brought it up was I willing to reconsider. She is my top town read and I have been/still am suspicious of you so I was paranoid to listen to much to anything you said. Also, I'm not "sold" on FS town as of yet. Not confident at all he is town, overall confidence level: meh.

@ Everyone, why do you keep saying "the more SH posts, the more town he looks" but still fos me? It's not like I'm lurking, I've posted at least my share of content I'd say.

Scumhunter · Post Post #353 (ISO) » Wed May 25, 2011 6:07 am

I still want Meransiel to explain the contradiction in her read of me. She said I was getting more town the more I posted d1...and then today said I was getting scummier and scummier as d1 went on? Which is it? And what's with the contradiction? How am I scummy?

Thor665 · Post Post #354 (ISO) » Wed May 25, 2011 6:09 am

Scumhunter wrote:Thor, mostly because Elsa brought it up was I willing to reconsider. She is my top town read and I have been/still am suspicious of you so I was paranoid to listen to much to anything you said.

Scumhunter wrote:Good point [Thor], maybe I shouldn't have Elsa as such a strong town read. Was mostly a gut thing from d1, but upon a quick iso not enough to really put her in strong town category.

Imma confused...

Meransiel · Post Post #355 (ISO) » Wed May 25, 2011 7:54 am

Ahhhhh...much better. So one at a time:

TMW wrote:I've never heard of the angel Meransiel... where does it come from?

My imagination. -iel is still a male suffix tho.

Thor wrote:1 - WIFOM isn't scummy, it's just bad logic to be trapped within. This *might* be scummy, but it's a very large stretch to take a newbie doing WIFOM and calling it a scumtell. I'll take it by you doing this that you're accusing him of being an experienced enough player that he should know better than to WIFOM? Where do you come to that conclusion?

Or it could be WIFOM because he can't support it because he knows the push is imaginary. Because he knows who's town

.

Elsa wrote:Scumhunter is largely due to how genuine his posts read to me.

Yup, very genuine.

Spoiler: Scumhunter giving off towntells

Sarcasm implied.

Elsa wrote:Meransiel saying he’s okay with a Fire or Scumhunter lynch puts me on edge. It makes me think he’s scum just biding his time, waiting for the 'okay' from the town to drop a hammer.

I wasn't waiting to be "allowed" to hammer. Had I been doing that, I would've obviously forced a claim.

Elsa wrote: Give me the short version on your case on Scumhunter

1. He's calling accusations made against him bad/misguided play
2. He's motivating the fact that he's town by simply saying "I'm town" and "why don't you understand I'm town".
3. He's very wishy-washy with his reads, particularly on me and Thor, calling us both town and scum on a post by post basis.
4. Slight gut, tbh.

Elsa wrote:Also, why are you okay with voting Fire instead?

I'm sure I said why. Pay attention.

Elsa wrote:Again, not huge on the Fire wagon, but unlike TMW, Quil at least gave a reason for voting.

This sounds like looking on purpose for a reason to vote TMW. Notable for me, as though he's quite annoying, I find TMW to be a pretty town read.

Thor wrote:
Are we dredging back into that world where not explaining a vote right away is a scumtell and doing so is a town one? You know I'm emotionally against that for religious reasons.
So you don't agree with the town reads Quill has been given by the rest of the players?

I like the way you're using this to make TMW town and not using it to make me town (as I was being accused by Elsa of doing the same thing). Selectiveness should not be pro-town, I suppose?

Thor wrote:@Everyone - newsflash - placing someone at L-1 isn't inherently scummy. I feel like everytime someone does it this game someone else is muttering that it's scummy. I'm pretty sure we'll have someone put someone else at L-1 when we're lynching scum, so... Please pay attention to motive more than votes, seriously. A vote is never scummy, it's a vote. Motive is scummy. If you can't explain the scummy motive than you probably don't actually have a scumtell.

Grateful for this tho.

@Quilford: Exactly how much are you leaning scum on Thor. Also, how certain are you of Elsa=town?
@TMW: If you're still interested (your question concerning the initial conversation-starting vote today), that was the initial purpose. Now, however, I've got a brand new stream of scummy posts from him, and I really feel no need to unvote. At all.

Quote tag fixed. (Equinox)

Scumhunter · Post Post #356 (ISO) » Wed May 25, 2011 9:08 am

Meransiel, you are in attack attack mode on me. You are zoning in on not liking the way I play and not REALLY trying to read my alignment. Or at least thats how your behavior reads to me. If you are town, you are the one who is playing bad letting your annoyance with my playstyle affect your game play. If you are scum, well good for you, you are like a million other scumteams I've played against who try and use my behavior as a reason to push a ML to the end of the world. Thor, I did end up reconsidering Elsa. Still don't think she's mafia.

Scumhunter · Post Post #357 (ISO) » Wed May 25, 2011 9:18 am

Oh and I'm "wishy-washy" on my reads because I can't make up my mind. That motivation comes from a legitimate town perspective of not being sure if you are mafia or not. For example, I'm having a hard time reasonably fathoming how a town-sided player could tunnel on me and focus just on me as hard as you have. Part of my troll/low-content play is generating reads based on how players view me. Often I end up having town tells on players who fos me and scum reads on people who say "Oh SH, please stop trolling". I made the mistake in Mini 1156 of mistaking Pine's tunneling on me day 1 as misguided town when he actually was scum just pushing very hard to lynch me. I'm weary of making the same mistake twice and from my pov as town, you wouldn't be a bad lynch if you are town and will do nothing but vote me and disrespect the way I play regardless of your alignment. You said d1 I was getting townier as I posted more. I have continued to post quite a bit today, but now you went back on your previous words and said SH was scummier and scummier as d1 went on. I don't understand how you could have such a different interpretation of my actions without some explanation/thought process exhibited/influenceing your decision. Can you please explain why you said those 2 very very different things? @Everyone else, am I nitpicking with this inconsistency?

Elsa von Spielburg · Post Post #358 (ISO) » Wed May 25, 2011 9:25 am

1. He's calling accusations made against him bad/misguided play
2. He's motivating the fact that he's town by simply saying "I'm town" and "why don't you understand I'm town".
3. He's very wishy-washy with his reads, particularly on me and Thor, calling us both town and scum on a post by post basis.
4. Slight gut, tbh.

And you don't see any of these as new player tells as opposed to scum tells?

And honestly, your compilation of Scumhunter quotes was exactly what I was thinking about. Guess we just have different reads.

Scumhunter · Post Post #359 (ISO) » Wed May 25, 2011 10:02 am

Elsa, fwiw I'm not really a "new" player. Played 1000+ games of EpicMafia with great success and a few forum games on here and a handful on other sites. A significant part of my town play is based off of appeals to emotion, which is a) not a scumtell and b)actually quite hard to fake the sincerity (particularly in attitude and thought process than people give it credit for). I think you are picking up on it for sure. Anything to get people to realize I'm town is a valid strategy in my book and I will push push push myself as town to no end.

My theory has long been that appeal to emotion is written off as a scumtell or a nulltell because players are not good enough at reading it to recognize when said appeal is a legitimate town appeal and a scum appeal. Emotions are part of the game. To ignore that is ignoring a huge part of human communication which is what the bulk of this game comes down to anyways. Even if we ignored emotion, the other part of the game is logic on who is scum and that boils down to how players interacted with each other and their attitudes towards things (essentially communication).

"80% of communication is non-verbal."

FireStorm · Post Post #360 (ISO) » Wed May 25, 2011 8:02 pm

hmm, well, my vote on you wasn't really strong on you before, and the more you've been posting, the more I've been thinking of you as town, so I will go ahead and say;

Unvote

Today has really shaken my opnions of a few people. TMW was one of my strongest town reads today, but now I'm not nearly as confident trusting him. However, Elsa has basically won me over, I'm fairly confident she's town.
Scumhunter was a neutral today, then he bacame a little scummy, and now I'm getting a slight town read (stop being so inconsistent D: )
Meransiel has moved from a null read to a..........neutral read. Now I've been getting town reads in some posts, and scum reads in others, so yeah.
My opinions on Thor and Quilford remain the same as before.

Quilford · Post Post #361 (ISO) » Wed May 25, 2011 8:54 pm

okay TMW seems to be the hot topic; I'll ISO him

Quilford · Post Post #362 (ISO) » Thu May 26, 2011 12:11 am

bleh I don't have the time or the energy to ISO at the moment I'll really really try later but I'm losing motivation after IRL stuff

Elsa von Spielburg wrote:- TMW jumping in on the super-obvious-it-hurts Thor/Fire point makes me wary of him. Also, in TMW’s post voting Fire, he votes based on… Thor covering for Fire? Not liking it one bit. I think your Fire vote is weakityweakweak.

Do you have anything more than this on TMW?

Meransiel · Post Post #363 (ISO) » Thu May 26, 2011 1:50 am

Scumhunter wrote:If you are town, you are the one who is playing bad letting your annoyance with my playstyle affect your game play.

What do you mean by this? TMW annoys me more than you, and I still have him as a town read. It's just you, and I'm making a direct quote:

Scumhunter wrote:giving off obvious scumtells

I'm not zoning in on you either, I'm giving my opinion on other's play as well, and you are simply my top scumread, but by NO means my only one.

Scumhunter wrote:For example, I'm having a hard time reasonably fathoming how a town-sided player could tunnel on me and focus just on me as hard as you have.

I'm also having a hard time living with the fact that you're not getting lynched, hence the attack attack attack mode.
By the way, that "pseudo-meta" thing you were saying about how scum always tunnel on you is logically flawed, I can easily see both alignments pushing for your death, and it's specifically stupid as you yourself stated meta is a very bad reason to suspect/vote someone.

Elsa wrote:
And you don't see any of these as new player tells as opposed to scum tells?

That is another possibility, yes. Why do you consider it more likely than him being scum, may I ask?

Quilford · Post Post #364 (ISO) » Thu May 26, 2011 2:09 am

bump meransiel up to null/town

I'm getting an aggressive townie feel, especially from the preceding post

Meransiel · Post Post #365 (ISO) » Thu May 26, 2011 2:12 am

It's not my job to get people to see me as town, it's my job to get scum lynched.

So, do you on an off chance still find SH suspicious?

Quilford · Post Post #366 (ISO) » Thu May 26, 2011 2:14 am

1) I know that

2) he's null; I believe I have already stated this. why?

Meransiel · Post Post #367 (ISO) » Thu May 26, 2011 2:24 am

I'm just looking at who may be in agreement with me about SH. Because I would be indeed wasting my energy on trying to lynch him if others didn't feel the same. Which would call for a new case on a new individual to give a fresh kick to discussion.

By the way, some peoplez, don't remember exactly who right now, said they're ok with discussing the night kill (Miss JJ). I would like to hear them out.

Thor665 · Post Post #368 (ISO) » Thu May 26, 2011 3:12 am

@Scumhunter - AtE is actually scummy. that said, I don't think you've really used AtE yet, so perhaps our definitions are just different.

=======================================
@Meran - Just to clarify - town actually have three jobs, in order of importance;

1. Locate scum.

2. Convince the other players you have located scum.

3. Show the other players you are town.

All three are pretty important though.
===================================

I'd still rather lynch Meran or Trip over Scumhunter. I can see Sumhunter as a possible lynch, but no one has yet expressed anything that looks like a viable case to explain why that's a valuable lynch at this stage. Yeah, I wish he looked a little better, and I can see his opinion thrashing and it does look suspect, but my gut is still saying he's town at this stage and I'd rather debate about him tomorrow than roll the dice there today.

Quilford · Post Post #369 (ISO) » Thu May 26, 2011 3:14 am

Enjoy your cake, Thor (delicious and moist?).

Mer, you can discuss the NK but at this stage it's fraught with WIFOM.

Meransiel · Post Post #370 (ISO) » Thu May 26, 2011 3:19 am

I don't want to discuss the nk, I want those that stated they will do it to live up to it.

TripMyWire · Post Post #371 (ISO) » Thu May 26, 2011 6:22 am

Meransiel wrote:

TMW wrote:I've never heard of the angel Meransiel... where does it come from?

My imagination. -iel is still a male suffix tho.

Oh! Now I know

Meransiel wrote:I don't want to discuss the nk, I want those that stated they will do it to live up to it.

I've been going through the posts to see if you may be on to something... but I can't find anyone stating that they

will

discuss it. Scumhunter said "It has an element of wifom, but it could be helpful to at least consider." I don't see any commitment there. Is he the one you had in mind?

Scumhunter wrote:@ Everyone, why do you keep saying "the more SH posts, the more town he looks" but still fos me? It's not like I'm lurking, I've posted at least my share of content I'd say.

For me, it's the way you play Day 1 where you just sit it out for a while. It's just not for me. No, you're not lurking anymore. Yes, you've posted lots of content. You're still "fairly neutral" to me.

Quilford wrote:

Elsa von Spielburg wrote:- TMW jumping in on the super-obvious-it-hurts Thor/Fire point makes me wary of him. Also, in TMW’s post voting Fire, he votes based on… Thor covering for Fire? Not liking it one bit. I think your Fire vote is weakityweakweak.

Do you have anything more than this on TMW?

I'd like to know as well. And once again, that is NOT the reason I voted for Firestorm... just in case I didn't make it clear earlier.

TripMyWire · Post Post #372 (ISO) » Thu May 26, 2011 6:35 am

Quilford wrote:1) I know that

2) he's null; I believe I have already stated this. why?

I think what she was getting at is how you put the vote on Scumhunter at the beginning of the day and now he's just null to you. When you put the hammer on Staeg in #255 you declared: "If Staeg flips town,

heavy suspicion

goes to Scumhunter."
Sure enough he flipped town and you voted him.
Then you switched to Firestorm.
Then you say that Scumhunter is just null now.

What caused you to go from "heavy suspicion" to just "null"?

Scumhunter · Post Post #373 (ISO) » Thu May 26, 2011 8:46 am

Thor665 wrote:@Scumhunter - AtE is actually scummy. that said, I don't think you've really used AtE yet, so perhaps our definitions are just different.

=======================================
@Meran - Just to clarify - town actually have three jobs, in order of importance;

1. Locate scum.

2. Convince the other players you have located scum.

3. Show the other players you are town.

All three are pretty important though.
===================================

I'd still rather lynch Meran or Trip over Scumhunter. I can see Sumhunter as a possible lynch, but no one has yet expressed anything that looks like a viable case to explain why that's a valuable lynch at this stage. Yeah, I wish he looked a little better, and I can see his opinion thrashing and it does look suspect, but my gut is still saying he's town at this stage and I'd rather debate about him tomorrow than roll the dice there today.

I strongly disagree with re: aTe. That is a discussion for another day though. At this time I have separated the remaining suspects into two groups...

People I'm not willing to lynch today: Elsa, Quilford
People I'm not going to push a lynch on most likely but would be meh if they were lynched: Thor (dangerous if he's scum), Meransiel (dangerous if she is town with her tunneling on me)
People I'm willing to lynch today: TMW, FS (I don't think the scumtells I had on him are scumtells, but I'm still nowhere near convinced he is town. Willing to table this for a day though due to Elsa's read on him)

So ya. Most likely wanting to vote TMW at the moment.

Thor, oh one thing that seems odd about this post is that you say "I'd rather debate about him tomorrow". But then again just noticed I literally just said I'm willing to table discussion on FS so meh. Mostly just paranoid if you are scum and we ML today that you will push on me for the last ML tomorrow.

TripMyWire wrote:
Quilford wrote:1) I know that

2) he's null; I believe I have already stated this. why?

I think what she was getting at is how you put the vote on Scumhunter at the beginning of the day and now he's just null to you. When you put the hammer on Staeg in #255 you declared: "If Staeg flips town,
heavy suspicion
goes to Scumhunter."
Sure enough he flipped town and you voted him.
Then you switched to Firestorm.
Then you say that Scumhunter is just null now.

What caused you to go from "heavy suspicion" to just "null"?

This post has the appearance of trying to scumhunt but really doesn't seem sincere to me. First, I don't think the specific post you picked from Quilford was one of his better moments. Secondly, seems like you are trying to cast suspicion on him. Thirdly, you don't really comment on what you think of me which is the topic of your criticism. Fourthly, your play has been generalized by epic amounts of fencesitting this game. You have shown mild support for wagons on me or on FS but haven't really said much of note. D1 Scumhunter null, wary of Thor. D2, suspicion on SH and FS (you join FS wagon but don't really push it). Looks like you are trying to slide under the radar to me. Much more inline with cautious scum play than overzealous newbie play like you claim.

Vote: TripMyWire

Scumhunter · Post Post #374 (ISO) » Thu May 26, 2011 8:51 am

TMW, why do you think Quilford went from heavy suspicion to null in his read of me?
Also, you have been switching back between me and FS as well so not sure what you are getting at bringing up that Quilford has been doing the same thing.