Mini 1159 - Powerrox93's Mini Normal I (Game Over)

[Uncle Pain]

Welcome Setael! Finally some content from your slot, thank you. Still, I’d like to attack your points against me. Wall vs. wall, if you like.

Uncle Pain has avoided interaction with Zdenek

Actually, no. I have been content with his posts so far. He may not always have the same opinion as I do but he always gives some reasoning, and even with having different opinions and votes he never stood in the way of a lynch. I simply found that I had no obvious reason to ask him more than I did.

and based on his “scum hunting” regarding everyone else, if he were town, he’d have called Zden out for this.

I usually notice low activity but I don’t necessarily call it scummy. Hell, if I did that, your slot would be my target number 1. Oh wait, it is. And besides, Zdenek may have posted less than others but he did contribute to the discussions – why should I call him out on inactivity when there was none?

His play on the c-worl wagon was definitely bussing.

Sounds quite sure for someone not knowing my thoughts. Would all other votes against C-Worl have counted as bussing to you as well if your case had been against someone else? I’m sorry, this looks arbitrary and convenient.

Andrew post 60 could be scum with pain

OMG, now you’re really stretching it, aren’t you?

p125 Uncle Pain defends Andrew. “imaginality: A beautiful case you’ve built here. Can you point out where you found andrew94 particularly scummy?”

Heaven forbid I want to check the validity of someone’s case from time to time! In #366 I defended redtail896, am I scum for this too? Shouldn’t be redtail896 be my scum partner then? I’m confused how this can be used as an argument against me.

P7-8 uncle pain zdenek lurkingish, have they mentioned Andrew at all?

Watch me closely and you’ll see that I’m usually off Mafia Scum on weekends. And exactly this was the case on page 7/8, too (two large birthday parties with lots to prepare for).
Regarding andrew94, I admit he managed to fly under my radar. I asked him some questions and he replied to them but he never gave me an odd feeling while he was in the game. Others suspected him more, maybe I should in turn have looked at him more.

P304 redtail townish when he calls out hammer
Uncle pain 321 c-worl vote is almost definitely bussing

This is what I meant above: I look like a bussing scum to you but others

using the same argumentation

are townish.

Zdenek post 330 tries to derail cworl wagon and start one on redtail. Then in 360 he’s agreeing with uncle pain that Redtail is scummy for supposedly preparing an escape from the c-worl wagon.

Let me summarize: Zdenek and me look scummy to you when we don’t talk to each other. But we look scummy to you as well when we do talk to each other.
Question: do you actually consider at all that Zdenek and me may not be scum buddies? If yes, congratulations, you managed to think straight and unbiased. If no, well, congratulations as well, you just went up in my scummy-meter for stubbornness on a weak case.

The interaction between zdenek and uncle pain while c-worl was about to be lynched is fishy. It’s like Uncle Pain was seeing that the townies were letting zdenek fly under the radar, so he made sure to ask him lots of questions, just not about c-worl.

This makes no sense to me. Why would I want to bus my partner when he’s in no peril at all? Preventive bussing? Seriously?!

Bvoigt was NK'd for uncle pain suspicion in posts 393 and 432.

Now this at least makes

some

sense. On the other hand, it’s easy to see through such a manoeuvre and is likely to be picked up by town on the next day. Also, I have reservations towards WIFOM in cases.

P399 Uncle Pain says: "bvoigt: How can you explain that everyone else sees me town but you see me scummy?" Sounds like something scum would say - upset they're losing their free pass.

Or maybe it sounds like a townie who is wondering why someone has a completely different opinion than most of the others. This was a simple question, not intimidation.

#422 combined with 398 is weird. Either he thinks it’s odd that bvoigt suspects him when no one does, or he’s relieved by it. The 2 posts don’t work together for me.

bvoigt had a different opinion about my alignment than most of the others, of course I found this interesting and so I wanted to know more about it. On the other hand, it kind of relieved me of said pressure as I’m used to not playing perfect town and thus getting less town reputation than in this game. I don’t see how these two aspects contradict each other. I think you especially read too much into the relieve.

@Uncle Pain - any reason not to post your longish post anyhow, if you still have it?

And then post 444 UP posts it...and it’s questions for most the players. Why not post it when he supposedly wrote it? And if he decided not to post it then, why save it for later when the questions would be totally obsolete? Makes no sense.

I wrote the post because I wanted to squeeze more information out of Day 2. With the lynch occurring in the meantime, many of the questions as well as the intention itself became obsolete (Day 2 was now practically over). If no one had asked for it, I wouldn’t have posted it because of said obsolescence. But imaginality asked for it and so I posted it nonetheless. There was no reason to hide it, why shouldn’t I grant imaginality’s wish then? What exactly is hard to understand about this?

457 Uncle Pain brings up bvoigt NK wifom before anyone else can. He clearly NK’d the person who was suspicious of him and planned to wifom the town.

I’m sorry that I seem to have missed that part of “Playing Mafia Scum 101”. I wonder what is scummy about being first to notice something, to make a statement or something like that? I know that thinking about the motives of a night kill always incorporates WIFOM but I tend to think that it can be useful nonetheless. I mean, I even explicitly warn everyone about the WIFOMness. I assume that any sensible player will take such content with a grain of salt.
On the other hand, I found it amusing to read your conclusion. “to WIFOM the town” is definitely something I will note down somewhere.

At this point, Uncle Pain not being suspicious of Zdenek after he totally avoided commenting on c-worl makes it pretty obv they’re buddies.

Well, if you gave me some pointers to Zdenek’s statements that you find suspicious, I’d be grateful. From my side, he looks fairly townie.

Why would you assume scum PR instead of town PR? This is just thinly veiled role fishing combined with an attempt to cast suspicion on my slot with crap mod-outguess reasoning.

As I said in exactly that post:

Due to the nature of the posts that this slot has given us so far

, I find it not far-fetched to assume that he could be an anti-town PR…

(bold by me)
Or do you actually think that GroupThink, Mist7676, Prox and RangeroftheNorth actually have been very pro-town? If so, please explain why. If not, what is your problem with me assuming an anti-town player behind your slot?
Beside the not-so-obvious connection between thinking aloud about power roles and fishing for roles, what is the problem with fishing for anti-town power roles? I’d love to lynch those first.
Regarding the mod outguessing, I actually found crazypianist1116’s reply most helpful, I realize that it’s probably leading to nowhere.

Well, Setael, what can I say… I could just vote you to L-1 and be happy with that. While your predecessors weren’t very pro-town, your tunnelling on Zdenek and me as a scum pair strikes me as scummy as well. I certainly have nothing against looking for clues and connections and building cases but you take it much too far, it’s especially the stubborn focus on Zdenek and me that bothers me. Still, I’d like you to comment on the other players and give us reads.

[Powerrox93]

It has been 48 hours and redtail896 hasn't even picked up his prod yet. I guess I'll just have to start searching for replacement, again

[chkflip]

I love me two things:

a) sexy playerlists with people I'm familiar with.

b) lynchings of andrewscum.

I'm reading. I'm replacing redtail I'd presume. No Role PM yet though because I'm a faux ninja.

Get at me while I re-read, bros.

[Powerrox93]

chkflip replaces redtail896

[Setael]

p 128 Odd for zdenek to not even comment on Uncle Pain, the leading wagon.

He was at three votes, one of which could have been an RVS vote (at least it didn't seem serious at all), it was early in the game and there was no need to comment.

What do you mean, there was no need to comment? A townie considers the leading wagon, regardless of how early. They're inclined to take a stand or at least state their read one way or another. It doesn't make sense to ignore it entirely the way you did unless you're buddies.

Zdenek post 330 tries to derail cworl wagon and start one on redtail. Then in 360 he’s agreeing with uncle pain that Redtail is scummy for supposedly preparing an escape from the c-worl wagon. If this is the case, and Zdenek thinks c-worl is scum, why isn’t he voting c-worl? Or mentioning him at all? Then when the redtail wagon doesn’t take, in post 424 when c-worl is at L-1 he tries to get momentum moved to crazypianist.

First of all, I'm the one who brought up the prepared escape vote. I was trying to use the time to scum hunt. There really wasn't anything to say about C-Worl. I thought his hammer was bad, but I'm surprised it came from scum.

If that is true why didn't you say so at the start of d2? Or AT LEAST once his wagon was gaining momentum? You cannot excuse how blatantly you avoided commenting on c-worl with "I was busy scum hunting." You didn't comment on him, you tried to start other wagons and instead of asking you about c-worl, uncle pain asked you about these other wagons. You were both trying to save c-worl. Subtly, but it's still there.

The interaction between zdenek and uncle pain while c-worl was about to be lynched is fishy. It’s like Uncle Pain was seeing that the townies were letting zdenek fly under the radar, so he made sure to ask him lots of questions, just not about c-worl.

What is the scum motivation in not letting a buddy fly under the radar?

So that you can point back and say "Look! I was pressuring him and asking him questions when everyone else was letting him slide! Obviously I can't possibly be his buddy!" (Preferably you wouldn't have to point it out. You'd definitely prefer they come to that conclusion on their own.) If uncle pain were town who wasn't sure whether you were town or scum, he would've asked you about c-worl and questioned your avoidance of him and probably also questioned you about trying to start other wagons while never commenting on the obvscum at L-1.

Anyway, I think Uncle Pain is town because he's remained active when he could just lurk, and has tried to keep other people active too. I see no scum motivation in this.

You really see absolutely no merit in anything I posted about him? You're really putting him as town just for activity? I've played games with you where the scum were the most active players and certainly made every effort to keep others active. You and I both know that there is a whole lot of scum motivation to play that way because a lot of players, especially newer players will auto read them as town for it. You would not say this if you were town.

I think this argument trying to link the two of us is a bad exercise in hunting for connections between players.

I'm not just hunting for connections, and it's a misrep to call my post that. You are both obvscum independently of each other, there just happen to also be a lot of connections and so I pointed those out. There is a small chance I'm wrong about one of you, but it's very small. At the beginning of the game I was suspicious of jase and then me=weird but they both did things throughout the course of the game that made them look townier, whereas you and uncle pain got progressively scummier and more and more likely to be buddies.

I'll respond to Uncle Pain's post this afternoon.

[Setael]

Uncle Pain has avoided interaction with Zdenek

Actually, no. I have been content with his posts so far. He may not always have the same opinion as I do but he always gives some reasoning, and even with having different opinions and votes he never stood in the way of a lynch. I simply found that I had no obvious reason to ask him more than I did.

You are avoiding the crux of the issue which is that the nature of your interactions make you likely buddies. See my response to Zdenek.

and based on his “scum hunting” regarding everyone else, if he were town, he’d have called Zden out for this.

I usually notice low activity but I don’t necessarily call it scummy. Hell, if I did that, your slot would be my target number 1. Oh wait, it is. And besides, Zdenek may have posted less than others but he did contribute to the discussions – why should I call him out on inactivity when there was none?

You kill your own argument here. You've targeted my slot as scummy for low activity, but were giving Zdenek a pass. See the problem? And it's not just low activity, it's letting him get away with minimal content and avoiding topics he should've been commenting on.

His play on the c-worl wagon was definitely bussing.

Sounds quite sure for someone not knowing my thoughts. Would all other votes against C-Worl have counted as bussing to you as well if your case had been against someone else? I’m sorry, this looks arbitrary and convenient.

Nope. Yours definitely looked the most like bussing. I kept notes of everything I found scummy or townie, and then only posted what was relevant once I had read the entire thread and gauged my reads. You're trying to paint me as having decided who I thought was scum before reading the thread, and that is not the case.

Andrew post 60 could be scum with pain

OMG, now you’re really stretching it, aren’t you?

I don't think so. In that post, Andrew says, "@crazypianist when you say uncle pain is prob bussing jase, but you said hes first post was to deflect attention away from his scum buddies?
wtf". He's clearly coming to your defense there, but trying to be subtle about it. How is this a stretch?

p125 Uncle Pain defends Andrew. “imaginality: A beautiful case you’ve built here. Can you point out where you found andrew94 particularly scummy?”

Heaven forbid I want to check the validity of someone’s case from time to time! In #366 I defended redtail896, am I scum for this too? Shouldn’t be redtail896 be my scum partner then? I’m confused how this can be used as an argument against me.

Nah, I don't find it scummy every time someone defends someone else and every time someone questions someone else's case (though this one does look pretty scummy all by itself). However, once I've finished reading the game and am confident in my scum reads, things like this stay in because they're relevant. It's not just one isolated incident. It's an incident of you defending flipped scum and attacking his attacker, combined with a lot of other things.

P7-8 uncle pain zdenek lurkingish, have they mentioned Andrew at all?

Watch me closely and you’ll see that I’m usually off Mafia Scum on weekends. And exactly this was the case on page 7/8, too (two large birthday parties with lots to prepare for).
Regarding andrew94, I admit he managed to fly under my radar. I asked him some questions and he replied to them but he never gave me an odd feeling while he was in the game. Others suspected him more, maybe I should in turn have looked at him more.

I'm not surprised you didn't. Scum buddies tend to avoid interaction, so it makes sense.

P304 redtail townish when he calls out hammer
Uncle pain 321 c-worl vote is almost definitely bussing

This is what I meant above: I look like a bussing scum to you but others

using the same argumentation

are townish.

It's never the exact same. Timing, place on the wagon, their play up to that point and afterward... all kinds of factors which makes yours look like bussing and redtail's look townish.

Zdenek post 330 tries to derail cworl wagon and start one on redtail. Then in 360 he’s agreeing with uncle pain that Redtail is scummy for supposedly preparing an escape from the c-worl wagon.

Let me summarize: Zdenek and me look scummy to you when we don’t talk to each other. But we look scummy to you as well when we do talk to each other.

You're like a bad defense attorney. It's definitely scummy when you avoid each other almost entirely, and even more scummy when you pointedly ask him questions which have nothing to do with the obvscum at L-1. I anticipate reading the scum qt N1 and seeing one of you or Zdenek say "We've been avoiding each other too much. Let's be sure to interact more D2." Then Zdenek said, "OK, you bus the crap out of Mr. Obvscum Quickhammer and I'll make cases elsewhere to see if anything sticks."

Question: do you actually consider at all that Zdenek and me may not be scum buddies? If yes, congratulations, you managed to think straight and unbiased. If no, well, congratulations as well, you just went up in my scummy-meter for stubbornness on a weak case.

I did for a large part of the thread. Before I got my role pm I told the mod I was calling an Uncle Pain/Jase scum team but I was only at pg. 6 or something then. For awhile I thought Me=Weird might be scum and there were moments I suspected TO. By the end, though, I was pretty sure you were both scum so at this point, no, I'm not even considering that you and Zdenek might not be scum buddies. I tend to doubt my reads too easily and I'm done with that. If one of you flip town and I realize I'm wrong, I would still think the other is scum since I do find you scummy independently of the connections between you.

The interaction between zdenek and uncle pain while c-worl was about to be lynched is fishy. It’s like Uncle Pain was seeing that the townies were letting zdenek fly under the radar, so he made sure to ask him lots of questions, just not about c-worl.

This makes no sense to me. Why would I want to bus my partner when he’s in no peril at all? Preventive bussing? Seriously?!

Have you really not heard of distancing? How many games have you played?

Bvoigt was NK'd for uncle pain suspicion in posts 393 and 432.

Now this at least makes

some

sense. On the other hand, it’s easy to see through such a manoeuvre and is likely to be picked up by town on the next day. Also, I have reservations towards WIFOM in cases.

Well, clearly that's a risk you were willing to take. You know Bvoigt would go after you today, and you couldn't have that, especially with the rest of the town thinking you smell of roses. You knew you could NK him and WIFOM would keep the town from being too suspicious about it.

P399 Uncle Pain says: "bvoigt: How can you explain that everyone else sees me town but you see me scummy?" Sounds like something scum would say - upset they're losing their free pass.

Or maybe it sounds like a townie who is wondering why someone has a completely different opinion than most of the others. This was a simple question, not intimidation.

Hmmm.... nope, I like my analysis better.

#422 combined with 398 is weird. Either he thinks it’s odd that bvoigt suspects him when no one does, or he’s relieved by it. The 2 posts don’t work together for me.

bvoigt had a different opinion about my alignment than most of the others, of course I found this interesting and so I wanted to know more about it. On the other hand, it kind of relieved me of said pressure as I’m used to not playing perfect town and thus getting less town reputation than in this game. I don’t see how these two aspects contradict each other. I think you especially read too much into the relieve.

That makes no sense. A townie isn't preoccupied with being considered a perfect townie and feeling pressure to keep a pristine town reputation. They're concerned with finding scum and just keeping enough suspicion off to not get mislynched.

@Uncle Pain - any reason not to post your longish post anyhow, if you still have it?

And then post 444 UP posts it...and it’s questions for most the players. Why not post it when he supposedly wrote it? And if he decided not to post it then, why save it for later when the questions would be totally obsolete? Makes no sense.

I wrote the post because I wanted to squeeze more information out of Day 2. With the lynch occurring in the meantime, many of the questions as well as the intention itself became obsolete (Day 2 was now practically over). If no one had asked for it, I wouldn’t have posted it because of said obsolescence. But imaginality asked for it and so I posted it nonetheless. There was no reason to hide it, why shouldn’t I grant imaginality’s wish then? What exactly is hard to understand about this?

But if you wrote the post to try to squeeze more info out of d2, why wouldn't you still post it? You surely thought c-worl would inevitably be hammered when you wrote it, yes? So nothing should change as far as your motivations for posting it just because c-worl hammered himself. And it is inaccurate to say it was all obsolete because of the hammer. That post contained several statements/attacks on players that were not c-worl, and all of the bolded were not affected by the hammer:

Jase: Have you found anything pointing to a connection between redtail896 and me? What do you make out of it?

tarsonisocelot: Since you currently don’t want to vote C-Worl, why don’t you pursue the wagon of your second suspect redtail896?
C-Worl: Just noticed you never told us your suspicions, so what are your reads and why didn’t you come forward with them on your own?
Me=Weird: see below.

bvoigt: Do I understand you correctly that part of your case against me is that I hide my real motivations behind my wall posts? What if I wrote smaller posts with less content, would you then call me on active lurking?
Zdenek: Do you have any suspects besides redtail896?
imaginality: What is your actual case against bvoigt/yabbaguy? You only mentioned yabbaguy’s opening gambit which was quite pro-town in the eyes of most of us.
RangeroftheNorth: see #399.

redtail896: In reference to #319, now that you see tarsonisocelot in a more townie way, who would your lynch today “if we agree not to lynch C-Worl”?

crazypianist1116: Why did your scum hunt eagerness drop so hard since Day 2? Besides your case against C-Worl, do you suspect anyone at all?

457 Uncle Pain brings up bvoigt NK wifom before anyone else can. He clearly NK’d the person who was suspicious of him and planned to wifom the town.

I’m sorry that I seem to have missed that part of “Playing Mafia Scum 101”. I wonder what is scummy about being first to notice something, to make a statement or something like that? I know that thinking about the motives of a night kill always incorporates WIFOM but I tend to think that it can be useful nonetheless. I mean, I even explicitly warn everyone about the WIFOMness. I assume that any sensible player will take such content with a grain of salt.
On the other hand, I found it amusing to read your conclusion. “to WIFOM the town” is definitely something I will note down somewhere.

If a player with a pro-town rep pointed this out before you did, it could have gone very badly for you. You were obviously aware of this, and so posted it first. Savvy?

At this point, Uncle Pain not being suspicious of Zdenek after he totally avoided commenting on c-worl makes it pretty obv they’re buddies.

Well, if you gave me some pointers to Zdenek’s statements that you find suspicious, I’d be grateful. From my side, he looks fairly townie.

If you were a townie, you would be bothered by his avoidance of the c-worl wagon.

Why would you assume scum PR instead of town PR? This is just thinly veiled role fishing combined with an attempt to cast suspicion on my slot with crap mod-outguess reasoning.

As I said in exactly that post:

Due to the nature of the posts that this slot has given us so far

, I find it not far-fetched to assume that he could be an anti-town PR…

(bold by me)
Or do you actually think that GroupThink, Mist7676, Prox and RangeroftheNorth actually have been very pro-town? If so, please explain why. If not, what is your problem with me assuming an anti-town player behind your slot?

Most players are aware that town PRs have a tendency to lay low. The only argument you have against my slot is that all those who've played in it have been fairly inactive. The jump to assume scum PR instead of town PR with the mod outguess reasoning you provided only makes sense if you're trying to paint my slot as scummy.

Beside the not-so-obvious connection between thinking aloud about power roles and fishing for roles, what is the problem with fishing for anti-town power roles? I’d love to lynch those first.

Thinking aloud about power roles (if that's what you call what you did) is not much different from role fishing. And I'll answer your question with a question which I believe answers your question. Why would you fish for anti-town power roles when you can just scum hunt?

Well, Setael, what can I say… I could just vote you to L-1 and be happy with that. While your predecessors weren’t very pro-town, your tunnelling on Zdenek and me as a scum pair strikes me as scummy as well.

You wouldn't put me at L-1 because you would look hella scummy if you did. I am not surprised at the responses from you and Zdenek. Townies will likely see what I saw. Fresh pair of town eyes and all that.

I certainly have nothing against looking for clues and connections and building cases but you take it much too far, it’s especially the stubborn focus on Zdenek and me that bothers me. Still, I’d like you to comment on the other players and give us reads.

I trust you will agree that I've done this in the course of answering you.

Question for you. What do you think of Zdenek having a town read on you based on your activity level? (I should mention that the last 2 games he and I have been in together, the scum were arguably the most active players.)

[tarsonisocelot]

Hi Setael, chkflip.

Setael/UnclePain: Could you please attempt to be concise. I'm really not looking forward to reading through those walls.

[Setael]

That is me being concise. You don't want to see long-winded.

[tarsonisocelot]

That is me being concise. You don't want to see long-winded.

Ohjoy. I'll leave reading this until I have nothing left to do that can't be done with a headache.

[Powerrox93]

Votecount 3.6

Updated as of post #508

Setael (3) - Me=Weird, crazypianist1116, imaginality
chkflip (1) - Zdenek
Jase (1) - tarsonisocelot
Uncle Pain (1) - Setael

Not voting (3) - Uncle Pain, chkflip, Jase

If there's a mistake let me know.
9 Alive == 5 to Lynch && 5 to No-Lynch

Setael

will be lynched at deadline if votes doesn't change

V/LA

Uncle Pain: June 3-5 + June 11-12
Powerrox93: June 17-19. Empking will look over the game during that time

Deadline

June 11 14:00 CEST

[Uncle Pain]

Setael/UnclePain: Could you please attempt to be concise. I'm really not looking forward to reading through those walls.

I don’t want to restrain myself when I have something to say. I know walls can be bothersome but please understand that Setael is a Day 3 replacement and thus I kind of expect her to be more verbose in the first posts because she has to catch up to the game as well as we have to get to know her play.
Also, it’s not so bad actually; the replies contain a lot of quotes that just fill up space.

[Uncle Pain]

Setael

: The more I think about your case, the more I actually like it. It reads plausible at first and if I were you, the things you pointed out would bother me as well. But there are some problems that I don’t accept and I won’t give up just because you found coincidences and bad play.

You are avoiding the crux of the issue which is that the nature of your interactions make you likely buddies. See my response to Zdenek.

I’m not avoiding it, I just don’t know what to say. You have your opinion and I have mine, neither of us can prove anything to the other.

You kill your own argument here. You've targeted my slot as scummy for low activity, but were giving Zdenek a pass. See the problem? And it's not just low activity, it's letting him get away with minimal content and avoiding topics he should've been commenting on.

There’s a difference between low activity as in active lurking and low activity as in posting less without loss in quality. My argument was that

“Zdenek may have posted less than others but he did contribute to the discussions”

, your predecessors on the other hand were worse than that because they almost didn’t contribute anything and even got away with that.

Nope. Yours definitely looked the most like bussing. I kept notes of everything I found scummy or townie, and then only posted what was relevant once I had read the entire thread and gauged my reads. You're trying to paint me as having decided who I thought was scum before reading the thread, and that is not the case.

Exactly this is my impression and you even gave the reason for it yourself: you made notes of everything scummy but decided to post just this one case. This is detrimental for town because it makes judging you and your motives harder for us. And, as I said, it looks convenient.

He's clearly coming to your defense there, but trying to be subtle about it. How is this a stretch?

Already before with the redtail896 thing I really didn’t understand the fuss about defending someone. While you prefer to call it a defence, to me it looks by far more like digging deeper. Stating questions about possible contradictions is pro-town, regardless of andrew94’s alignment.

It's never the exact same. Timing, place on the wagon, their play up to that point and afterward... all kinds of factors which makes yours look like bussing and redtail's look townish.

This looks so plainly arbitrary, I wonder if that even was a defence for redtail896/chkflip?

You're like a bad defense attorney. It's definitely scummy when you avoid each other almost entirely, and even more scummy when you pointedly ask him questions which have nothing to do with the obvscum at L-1. I anticipate reading the scum qt N1 and seeing one of you or Zdenek say "We've been avoiding each other too much. Let's be sure to interact more D2." Then Zdenek said, "OK, you bus the crap out of Mr. Obvscum Quickhammer and I'll make cases elsewhere to see if anything sticks."

I had to smile when I read that because it’s actually not hard to imagine. I fear I must disappoint you, you won’t see any QuickTopic with me in it, not for this game. But your point here lead me to an interesting thought. I skimmed Day 2 to check it and it looks true: I am guilty for not having asked Zdenek more – and so are

all the others

. bvoigt was the first and only one asking Zdenek specifically for his read on C-Worl, guess what, he got nightkilled. In this light, the NK actually makes sense, scum saw a well-performing townie in him, in contrast to us mediocre ones.
My point is: you’re picking me specifically to make your case although others have done the same and should be as scummy for it as I am.

at this point, no, I'm not even considering that you and Zdenek might not be scum buddies. I tend to doubt my reads too easily and I'm done with that. If one of you flip town and I realize I'm wrong, I would still think the other is scum since I do find you scummy independently of the connections between you.

Now things become interesting… First, how very convenient to pick this game situation to be done with doubting your reads. Second, your case revolves primarily around connections between Zdenek and me. If these fall apart, your case is gone. If you actually have arguments against me in special, show me. Otherwise I call you out on throwing dirt at me with nothing to back it up.
By the way, why tell Powerrox93 that you were after an Uncle Pain/Jase scum team? What does he have to do with this?

Have you really not heard of distancing? How many games have you played?

If you’re interested in meta, read my wiki page. Of course I know distancing but attacking the partner out of the blue would seem too risky to me if I were scum, especially when town would otherwise focus on a townie wagon. This is getting a subjective matter, though, a question of play style and the like.

Well, clearly that's a risk you were willing to take. You know Bvoigt would go after you today, and you couldn't have that, especially with the rest of the town thinking you smell of roses. You knew you could NK him and WIFOM would keep the town from being too suspicious about it.

I say scum wants town to make us think that.

That makes no sense. A townie isn't preoccupied with being considered a perfect townie and feeling pressure to keep a pristine town reputation. They're concerned with finding scum and just keeping enough suspicion off to not get mislynched.

Full ack for the last sentence. And now think about it: when everyone thinks I’m super-townie, doesn’t this put me in a strange WIFOMly light? Of course this builds up some kind of pressure! I don’t want to be mislynched because as much as I want to win for town, I also play for my personal fun and being lynched or killed somewhat puts a halt to this. Or so I imagine; I have so far actually never been lynched, I guess this kind of fuels the fire for surviving. Man, this is getting psychological now.

But if you wrote the post to try to squeeze more info out of d2, why wouldn't you still post it? You surely thought c-worl would inevitably be hammered when you wrote it, yes? So nothing should change as far as your motivations for posting it just because c-worl hammered himself. And it is inaccurate to say it was all obsolete because of the hammer. That post contained several statements/attacks on players that were not c-worl, and all of the bolded were not affected by the hammer:

No, I never call a Day done, I write my posts with the belief that the Day’s outcome is open. C-Worl’s lynch could have been averted by another strong wagon, the chances were slight but I don’t write off someone only because he’s at L-1.
It’s embarrassing for me but I admit I haven’t re-read that post since I archived it in my text file. When imaginality asked for it, I just C&P’ed it without looking at it, I have already written it off as obsolete because the situation was totally different then. Thank you for pointing out the specific questions that are still valid, I will pursue them.

If a player with a pro-town rep pointed this out before you did, it could have gone very badly for you. You were obviously aware of this, and so posted it first. Savvy?

Erm. Well, thank you for thinking that I’m savvy. I’m probably not.
Very badly for me, you say, well, why has no one picked it up at all? I incriminated myself, thus making it even easier for others to follow the reasoning. An argument doesn’t become weaker because of the person who speaks it out.

If you were a townie, you would be bothered by his avoidance of the c-worl wagon.

Ok, you’re unable to point out actual posts where Zdenek looks scummy, so the only clue you have here is that he avoided the C-Worl wagon. Well, as I stated above: you blame

me

for not calling him out on this when in fact everyone else (except bvoigt) is guilty for this as well. I want a good reason why no one else looks scummy for this. Otherwise I consider it just another arbitrary choice to make your case work.

Most players are aware that town PRs have a tendency to lay low. The only argument you have against my slot is that all those who've played in it have been fairly inactive. The jump to assume scum PR instead of town PR with the mod outguess reasoning you provided only makes sense if you're trying to paint my slot as scummy.

It’s the other way round: your slot pinged my scumdar and

then

I searched for scummy clues about you. What you call painting your slot scummy is in fact backing up my feeling with some evidence. I have by now understood that outguessing is a bad idea and I retracted it. Can we get over with this now?

Thinking aloud about power roles (if that's what you call what you did) is not much different from role fishing. And I'll answer your question with a question which I believe answers your question. Why would you fish for anti-town power roles when you can just scum hunt?

You’re misrepping me, I did not say I was fishing for power roles, you said that. I was merely stating my thoughts.
Besides, what’s the difference, hunting scum in general versus hunting scum power roles? It’s both hunting scum, only that the latter ones are a bit more important and should be priority lynches.

You wouldn't put me at L-1 because you would look hella scummy if you did.

Oh, are you afraid of my vote? I have no fear of looking scummy when I’m sure I do the right thing for town.

I kept notes of everything I found scummy or townie, and then only posted what was relevant once I had read the entire thread and gauged my reads.
[…]

Still, I’d like you to comment on the other players and give us reads.

I trust you will agree that I've done this in the course of answering you.

What a cheap getaway. Your reads, please. Now.

[Setael]

I will repeat, since you ignored it.

Question for you. What do you think of Zdenek having a town read on you based on your activity level? (I should mention that the last 2 games he and I have been in together, the scum were arguably the most active players.)

[crazypianist1116]

Will post within 24 hours.

[Setael]

I'll repeat myself. I had (evidently incorrectly) assumed this would suffice:

Before I got my role pm I told the mod I was calling an Uncle Pain/Jase scum team but I was only at pg. 6 or something then. For awhile I thought Me=Weird might be scum and there were moments I suspected TO. By the end, though, I was pretty sure you were both scum so at this point, no, I'm not even considering that you and Zdenek might not be scum buddies.

At the beginning of the game I was suspicious of jase and then me=weird but they both did things throughout the course of the game that made them look townier, whereas you and uncle pain got progressively scummier and more and more likely to be buddies.

So, to spell it out for you, I currently have a town read on everyone except you and Zdenek. Because of suspicion I had earlyish game, if I were to be wrong about one of you I would look again at Jase, me=weird and TO. Pretty sure at this point that they're all town though and I'll never have to do that.

The more I think about your case, the more I actually like it. It reads plausible at first and if I were you, the things you pointed out would bother me as well. But there are some problems that I don’t accept and I won’t give up just because you found coincidences and bad play.

What specifically that I pointed out do you consider "bad play"? And what exactly do you mean by bad play?

Exactly this is my impression and you even gave the reason for it yourself: you made notes of everything scummy but decided to post just this one case. This is detrimental for town because it makes judging you and your motives harder for us. And, as I said, it looks convenient.

I find that if I post all my notes going through the whole game, people I no longer suspect get distracted defending against those things and the scum use those things to distract. I would much rather focus on who I think is scum, which is what I'm doing.

My point is: you’re picking me specifically to make your case although others have done the same and should be as scummy for it as I am.

No one else asked Zdenek questions about the other cases he made while c-worl was at L-1 while completely avoiding asking him about c-worl. So, no, you can't compare yourself to the others and say I should also see them as scummy.

Now things become interesting… First, how very convenient to pick this game situation to be done with doubting your reads.

This is actually the second game. Sorry it's not as convenient as you were hoping. The last game I replaced into the scum team was a bit more obvious than here so it was easier to not doubt my reads. It worked splendidly and we won. Before that though, I found scum and then let myself get talked out of it in 3 games in a row. All 3 led to a loss. So yeah, I'm sticking with the 'not doubting my reads' approach, as it has been proven to work.

Second, your case revolves primarily around connections between Zdenek and me. If these fall apart, your case is gone. If you actually have arguments against me in special, show me. Otherwise I call you out on throwing dirt at me with nothing to back it up.

Some of the things related to Zdenek still give you scum points even if he's town. For example, you have no problem with him having a town read on you for activity and not saying much else about you. Scum motivation abounds for you to do this whether Zdenek is scum or town, but a townie would just find it suspect. Also, it's scummy that you asked Zdenek about the alternate wagons he was trying to create while c-worl was at L-1 whether Zdenek is scum or town. If you were a townie, you'd have been suspicious of him ignoring c-worl and trying to distract from the wagon. Scum motivation to draw attention to the other wagons Zdenek was trying to start is obvious. He could've been town scum hunting while ignoring c-worl (very unlikely, but, you know, hypothetical) and you'd still have been scum for trying to move attention away from c-worl to his other suspects.

All of this from my original case is you scummy independent of Zdenek:

p125 Uncle Pain defends Andrew. “imaginality: A beautiful case you’ve built here. Can you point out where you found andrew94 particularly scummy?”

Uncle pain 321 c-worl vote is almost definitely bussing

Bvoigt was NK'd for uncle pain suspicion in posts 393 and 432.

P399 Uncle Pain says: "bvoigt: How can you explain that everyone else sees me town but you see me scummy?" Sounds like something scum would say - upset they're losing their free pass.

422 combined with 398 is weird. Either he thinks it’s odd that bvoigt suspects him when no one does, or he’s relieved by it. The 2 posts don’t work together for me.

c-worl: "Not enough for you? Hammered myself to keep suspicion of Uncle Pain from building up." So you can say what you want about c-worl’s WIFOM, but this one makes sense, and I think it is true.

And then post 444 UP posts it...and it’s questions for most the players. Why not post it when he supposedly wrote it? And if he decided not to post it then, why save it for later when the questions would be totally obsolete? Makes no sense.

457 Uncle Pain brings up bvoigt NK wifom before anyone else can. He clearly NK’d the person who was suspicious of him and planned to wifom the town.

Why would you assume scum PR instead of town PR? This is just thinly veiled role fishing combined with an attempt to cast suspicion on my slot with crap mod-outguess reasoning.

By the way, why tell Powerrox93 that you were after an Uncle Pain/Jase scum team? What does he have to do with this?

My point was that early game I had different suspects and was confident enough in them to make a guess to Power. I did not choose who to be suspicious of before reading, as you have insinuated.

If you’re interested in meta, read my wiki page. Of course I know distancing but attacking the partner out of the blue would seem too risky to me if I were scum, especially when town would otherwise focus on a townie wagon. This is getting a subjective matter, though, a question of play style and the like.

I completely disagree. Scum are more likely to distance like that when it's out of the blue and very likely to go nowhere. Soft bussing, if you will. Then it can be looked back at later as "evidence" you two can't be scum together, and yet you were never really at a risk of bussing him through to a lynch.

Full ack for the last sentence. And now think about it: when everyone thinks I’m super-townie, doesn’t this put me in a strange WIFOMly light? Of course this builds up some kind of pressure! I don’t want to be mislynched because as much as I want to win for town, I also play for my personal fun and being lynched or killed somewhat puts a halt to this. Or so I imagine; I have so far actually never been lynched, I guess this kind of fuels the fire for surviving. Man, this is getting psychological now.

You are not lynched because you are extremely active and post lots of content and people mistakenly take it for a town tell. Here's a question. In all these games where you've never been lynched, were you scum in any of them? I'm guessing your play as scum was very similar to here, but that it's also similar to your play as town. So since you know people read your scum play as town and you know you should not be considered town just because you're very active, if you are town you should have a problem with players clearing you as town for your activity level. (Wouldn't you agree that scum would target a weaker/less active player before you. A player as active as you is very difficult to get lynched, if just because players, especially newer ones, assume you're town JUST because of playstyle/activity level). If you are scum, I'd expect you to just go with it and be glad you're not being suspected, which is what you're doing.

[chkflip]

V/LA through Wednesday

Noted

[Jase]

Good god the walls! They're closing in!

Ahem...

This

I asked him some questions and he replied to them but he never gave me an odd feeling while he was in the game.

Does not ring true. Andrew never did anything that made you go "Well that's weird"? Ever? You're gonna have to explain this to me.

There's other parts of UPs defense that I didn't like. There's also parts of Sets' attacks that I didn't like. I'll have to comb through the walls to find 'em again, but I'm

LA for the rest of the day.

[Me=Weird]

I might get a post in tomorrow, but mostly

V/LA until wednesday

Exceptions for modded games.

[Zdenek]

What do you mean, there was no need to comment? A townie considers the leading wagon, regardless of how early. They're inclined to take a stand or at least state their read one way or another. It doesn't make sense to ignore it entirely the way you did unless you're buddies.

The wagon had three votes on it at the time, one was for no reason, it was early in the game, and I didn't feel the need to comment on it. I think you are making a big deal out of nothing, since looking back it seems like all some people had to say about the wagon was to ask GroupThink to provide an explanation for his vote. Since you are trying to use this event to connect Uncle Pain with me, if I thought UP was scum, and was searching for relations between players, I'd say those comments are more indicative of a connection, since they are softly defending UP by asking someone voting him to provide a reason.

If that is true why didn't you say so at the start of d2?

I thought that C-Worl's hammer was hasty and I said it.

You really see absolutely no merit in anything I posted about him? You're really putting him as town just for activity? I've played games with you where the scum were the most active players and certainly made every effort to keep others active. You and I both know that there is a whole lot of scum motivation to play that way because a lot of players, especially newer players will auto read them as town for it. You would not say this if you were town.

Looking down at your 514 where you list the points that are independent of me:

p125 Uncle Pain defends Andrew. “imaginality: A beautiful case you’ve built here. Can you point out where you found andrew94 particularly scummy?”

I think all imaginality had said about Andrew up until this time was:

Andrew94 has hit second on my scumlist with his last two posts (I'll go into more detail later).

So, I don't really find this question unnatural, and I especially do not find it unnatural in the context of Uncle Pain's play so far.

Uncle pain 321 c-worl vote is almost definitely bussing

I don't understand why think this vote was bussing over the others. If anyone was a bussing vote, I'd say it was redtail's.

Bvoigt was NK'd for uncle pain suspicion in posts 393 and 432.

This is a reasonable point insofar as night kill speculation is reasonable.

P399 Uncle Pain says: "bvoigt: How can you explain that everyone else sees me town but you see me scummy?" Sounds like something scum would say - upset they're losing their free pass.

This is a fair point.

422 combined with 398 is weird. Either he thinks it’s odd that bvoigt suspects him when no one does, or he’s relieved by it. The 2 posts don’t work together for me.

UP didn't write 398, but I know what you are talking about. I agree this is odd.

c-worl: "Not enough for you? Hammered myself to keep suspicion of Uncle Pain from building up." So you can say what you want about c-worl’s WIFOM, but this one makes sense, and I think it is true.

I think it is best that we ignore C-Worl.

And then post 444 UP posts it...and it’s questions for most the players. Why not post it when he supposedly wrote it? And if he decided not to post it then, why save it for later when the questions would be totally obsolete? Makes no sense.

Agreed

457 Uncle Pain brings up bvoigt NK wifom before anyone else can. He clearly NK’d the person who was suspicious of him and planned to wifom the town.

But you are bringing it up now, and if it's a valid thing to bring up then who cares who brought it up first.

Why would you assume scum PR instead of town PR? This is just thinly veiled role fishing combined with an attempt to cast suspicion on my slot with crap mod-outguess reasoning.

This is a good point.

As far as the activity argument goes. Looking back at those games, in Neruzian Mafia of the slots that were alive at the end:

Faraday had 246 posts
Vi had 99 (scum)
Quilford + Setael had 94
Sloth had 63
Hiplop had 59 (scum)
Darth Yoshi + Juls had 54

Vi was active as scum, but I'd judge her separately from most other players.

In Nexusville Mafia:

neil+King1216 128
q21+setael 101
Darth Yoshi (scum) 72
Implosion 51
Neko2086(scum) 47
WOMC+Swiftstrike 47
Zdenek (scum) 44

So scum weren't the most active players. In the first, I think Hiplop was in no way trying to keep other people in the game, and that while Vi might have been, her interactions with other people, esp. Quilford and Hiplop were awkward. In the second game, Swiftstrike had DY pegged as scum because of the sort of questions he was asking. I don't mean to argue that activity is a good town-tell, but I do think that activity in the absence of scum-tells is.

In summary, I think there some oddities in the things that UP has said, the contrast between his reaction to bvoigt's suspicion of him and being relieved that someone is suspicious of him and not originally posting the post of questions he wrote before C-Worl's hammer. I think the last point (UP's PR speculation) is the best one against him.

[Setael]

You left out Storm of Swords. I feel like Uncle Pain's playstyle/activity level is a lot like MoI's in that game.

Not sure why you find it necessary to address the points against Uncle Pain that are independent of your alignment.

[Powerrox93]

imaginality has been prodded. He would normally be force-replaced at this point but because of the number of replacements this game have already had, I'm gonna let this pass this time

All V/La's are noted

[Zdenek]

You left out Storm of Swords. I feel like Uncle Pain's playstyle/activity level is a lot like MoI's in that game.

Not sure why you find it necessary to address the points against Uncle Pain that are independent of your alignment.

I left it out because it was a large, and actually trying to determine who was most active is harder especially considering the number of scum killed fairly early. I'll have to think about the similarity with MoI.

I addressed them because you asked me

You really see absolutely no merit in anything I posted about him?

and the points that depend on me being scum are wrong from my point of view.

[Uncle Pain]

I’m sorry I missed your question:

What do you think of Zdenek having a town read on you based on your activity level? (I should mention that the last 2 games he and I have been in together, the scum were arguably the most active players.)

I consider activity a null tell. Scum do have more motivation to lurk than townies but we all know WIFOM and I’ve already met scum that were among the most active players. To clear someone with this reason alone is odd at best. As you (most verbosely) have pointed out, my play wasn’t all good so Zdenek should at least have

some

suspicion towards me. I don’t know why he hasn’t commented on this yet.

So, to spell it out for you, I currently have a town read on everyone except you and Zdenek. Because of suspicion I had earlyish game, if I were to be wrong about one of you I would look again at Jase, me=weird and TO. Pretty sure at this point that they're all town though and I'll never have to do that.

I’m sorry that your previous summary wasn’t enough for me. As I said, I think you’re overfocusing on Zdenek and me and hence I want to know what you think about the others – not just town/scum but also why you think that.
Do I get you right here:

• Jase: null (second in line in case Zdenek/me flips town)
  
• Uncle Pain: scum (reasons given in #497 and #514)
  
• tarsonisocelot: null (second in line in case Zdenek/me flips town)
  
• Me=Weird: null (second in line in case Zdenek/me flips town)
  
• Zdenek: scum (reasons given in #497)
  
• imaginality: town (no reason given)
  
• Setael: town (no reason given)
  
• chkflip:town (no reason given)
  
• crazypianist1116: town (no reason given)

I’d like you to fill out the gaps in this list. You don’t have to be as verbose, just give pointers and reasons.

What specifically that I pointed out do you consider "bad play"? And what exactly do you mean by bad play?

From my point of view so far, bad play has been:

• minor: random voting without realizing the RVS was already ending/ended
  
• major: overfocusing on the active players and ignoring the others
  
• so-so: creating confusion about defending redtail896
  
• major: not posting my Day 2 questions immediately despite their legitimacy

As you can see, by bad play I mean actions or situations that I handled badly.

I find that if I post all my notes going through the whole game, people I no longer suspect get distracted defending against those things and the scum use those things to distract. I would much rather focus on who I think is scum, which is what I'm doing.

It’s okay to focus, I just wanted to make sure we know what you’re thinking about everyone of us. We need a read on you as well, after all.

No one else asked Zdenek questions about the other cases he made while c-worl was at L-1 while completely avoiding asking him about c-worl. So, no, you can't compare yourself to the others and say I should also see them as scummy.

I really don’t get your logic. No one asks Zdenek for his read on C-Worl, we’re all guilty for that, yet no one is scummy to you for that. Then I do ask him a few other things (which isn’t scummy by itself) and suddenly I look scummy. I really don’t get it. Read: I do something townish and become scummy to you. I may have failed to see the wide hole (C-Worl) but I still had a good intention in asking him things and we even got useful responses. You call me scummy because of your theory that I tried to distract town but assuming such a thing implies that you had me in mind as scum beforehand. Therefore the distraction theory is based on your assumption that I am scum. You see where this leads? Circular logic. I’m scum to you because you like to think I’m scum.

The last game I replaced into the scum team was a bit more obvious than here so it was easier to not doubt my reads. It worked splendidly and we won. Before that though, I found scum and then let myself get talked out of it in 3 games in a row. All 3 led to a loss. So yeah, I'm sticking with the 'not doubting my reads' approach, as it has been proven to work.

1. Correlation does not imply causation. 2. Statistical significance needs a certain minimum of samples to be sufficiently sure. I highly doubt four games are enough for this. But this is a meta-discussion, let’s postpone this.

Some of the things related to Zdenek still give you scum points even if he's town.

I’ll do a summary of your points against me in my next post (for the tl;dr people), including my takes on them.

You are not lynched because you are extremely active and post lots of content and people mistakenly take it for a town tell.

Your

theory. I have my own: people here actually have another view on my play than you do.

In all these games where you've never been lynched, were you scum in any of them? I'm guessing your play as scum was very similar to here, but that it's also similar to your play as town. So since you know people read your scum play as town and you know you should not be considered town just because you're very active, if you are town you should have a problem with players clearing you as town for your activity level.

You’re relying on meta gaming, a topic I honestly don’t give a damn about. If someone wants to meta me, they can go ahead, I myself don’t feel any obligation to create any behavioural rules to restrict my town and scum play. For what it’s worth, I have been scum only once and I think my scum play was noticeably different from my town play. Generally I agree with you that activity doesn’t imply townieness; I’ve had my share of experience in this regard already in Newbie 674.

If you are scum, I'd expect you to just go with it and be glad you're not being suspected, which is what you're doing.

Well, then please give me time to finally take a closer look at Zdenek (despite the anticipation that you will twist the words in my mouth and call it bussing so it fits in your case).

[Uncle Pain]

Now about Setael’s reasons to find me scummy independently of connections:

• I seem to have no problem with Zdenek having a town read on me for activity and not saying much else about me.
  → This is not true. I didn’t notice it at first but I’m about to confront him with this.
  
• It's scummy that I asked Zdenek about the alternate wagons he was trying to create while c-worl was at L-1. I should have been suspicious of him ignoring C-Worl.
  → Yes, I should have been, just as everyone else. I see no me-specific scumminess in this, as explained in my previous post.
  
• I defended andrew94 against imaginality’s case in #125.
  → You call it defence, I call it questioning the case to understand the casemaker’s motives better.
  
• My Day 2 vote on C-Worl in #321 is almost definitely bussing.
  → This is based on the assumption that I’m scum in the first place, which is not true. Hence this is not an argument.
  
• bvoigt was nightkilled for his suspicions against me in #393 and #432.
  → Sounds plausible if you assume me scum. If you don’t, you can call it WIFOM as well. Null tell.
  
• My question in #399 to bvoigt (how he explains that he sees me scummy but no one else) sounds like something scum would say, upset they’re losing their free pass.
  → I question people for their scum cases, I question people for the town cases. And I don’t discriminate if it’s about me or anyone else. I asked bvoigt this to make him state the differences between his view and the opinions of others in order to make both sides rethink their position, keeping discussion up and understanding bvoigt better. Pro-town, if you ask me.
  
• #399 and #422 combined look weird: I can either think it’s odd that bvoigt suspects me when no one does, or be relieved by it, no both at the same time.
  → I need more explanation on why this is contradictory. I explained it myself and see no contradiction in it. And I especially see no scumminess in this.
  
• C-Worl’s WIFOM in #437 (
  “Hammered myself to keep suspicion of Uncle Pain from building up."
  ) makes sense.
  → You seriously pick up C-Worl’s WIFOM crap? Sounds like you’re desperately looking for clues to incriminate me. Because your case’s small world doesn’t allow me being town.
  
• I delayed posting my Day 2 questions – why not post it when I supposedly wrote them? And if I decided not to post it then, why save it for later when the questions would be totally obsolete?
  → I wrote the post off when I saw that Day 2 was over. I know now I was wrong with that. I didn’t save it for later on purpose, I just happened to have it still saved in my Mafia Scum notes. Call it stupidity, bad play, whatever, but what exactly is scummy about that?
  
• I brought up WIFOM thoughts about the bvoigt nightkill in #457 before anyone else could, hence I clearly nightkilled bvoigt and confuse town by bringing up WIFOM.
  → This argument itself is pure WIFOM. Should I have waited with posting this, would that have made another impression? If yes, this would be contradictory to the previous point where I’m criticised for procrastinating my questions. If no, is this an attempt to muzzle me? I think what I think and I speak it out. Also, there is nothing “clear” here. Scum made a clever choice by killing bvoigt so that I’m the one who’s blamed – just what they want.
  
• In my train of thought in #485 I assumed a scum power role instead of a town power role, which looks like role fishing combined with an attempt to cast suspicion on Setael‘s slot with mod-outguess reasoning.
  → I was theorising, not fishing. Hell, I don’t even know how to fish without being hyperobvious. And even if you call me on role fishing, I don’t get what is wrong about fishing for anti-town power roles (if this works at all). Furthermore, I didn’t have to cast suspicion because my suspicion was already there and an anti-town power role fitted in my image of your slot.

[Uncle Pain]

Does not ring true. Andrew never did anything that made you go "Well that's weird"? Ever? You're gonna have to explain this to me.

Well, I went through his posts in isolation and stumbled upon these:

• We rarely had the same suspects: when I was voting Jase, he found him townie and voted [L]; I joined the wagon only very late. During Day 2, Zdenek was after redtail896 while I was after C-Worl. If you like to count that as an “that’s weird”, well here it is.
  
• Zdenek’s comment in #253 arguing that redtail896’s question “reads as over defensive” (which follows yabbaguy’s train of thought in #212). I asked both of them why they see this scummy (#218 @ yabbaguy, #356 @ Zdenek); Zdenek at least admits that the argument is weaker than redtail896’s escape preparation from the C-Worl wagon.

These things are merely eyebrow raisers, nothing I’d call scummy. Overall, Zdenek’s views on things often were quite refreshing to see because he considered things that I (and others, too) did not. I find this very pro-town.

The only thing that strikes me odd is why he thinks I’m town only for my activity. This is the only real stain on his slate in my eyes.