Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den - Endgame

[gandalf5166]

Yes. The RVS is meaningless interaction, without any reasoning whatsoever. Interaction is the strongest tell, as it is the primary difference between scum and town. In the RVS, scum can't make excuses based on peoples play for treating them differently. So its far and away the most information rich phase of the game. I don't think I need to explain why ending it is proscum. ESPECIALLY since it was LMP doing it. He has personal experience with my abilities to detect scum in RVS. I've said all of this before.

[implosion]

2 counters to that:
1) In the RVS, there is almost never any risk of lynch, and therefore almost never any actual pressure. When scum are not under pressure and when there is no risk of lynch, they are free to interact in ways that would make people think that they are not scum together. Basically, because it is random and rarely has long-lasting effects, scum can do anything without fear.
2) I've shown you (at least one) example of a town player who actively tried to end the RVS, and who said that ending the RVS is a protown move.

Your opinion that there are benefits to the RVS can be valid (although I disagree), but your point that ending the RVS is a scumtell is invalid. I personally think that post-RVS is more helpful for town. There are town members who will act to end the RVS. It's logically impossible to justify attempting to end the RVS as a scumtell when there are town players who will actively do it. Regardless, I do better understand the justification of your LMP vote. It's an acceptable justification, though logically flawed. Waiting for responses to the rest of the case.

[SGRaaize]

Chesskid3's posts just won't feel the same with a different username and avatar behind them

I'L CONVINCE EVERYONE TO LYNCH YOU IF YOU TRY TO KILL ME.

Is this serious?

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[SGRaaize]

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[SGRaaize]

Ops, let me fix that again

[SGRaaize]

I'L CONVINCE EVERYONE TO LYNCH YOU IF YOU TRY TO KILL ME.

Is this serious?

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[IceyCupcake]

Just wanted to say Katsuki is probably taking over a bit for us, since I've generally lost a lot of time between graduation and fun times in the hospital. Stitches weeeeeee!

Anyway, fuck everyone trying to lynch Gandalf, and RBT is basically obvious scum. There's so many amazing quotes around her ('We shouldn't vig plan RBT, she plays like this as town...') etc. Plus she is NOT playing normally.

Gamdalf wagon is obvious scum counterwagon on player tagged as potential mislynch. Look how this wagon comes together, Chess:

Implosion: Voting Soben (LOL)
Beefster: Voting PeregrineV and before that Amrun
Inhim: Voting Amrun
RBT: Voting Amrun

IF GANDALF FLIPS SCUM WITH THAT WAGON I WILL EAT MY HAT AND MY SHIRT.

THAT'S OUTSIDE OF PLAY WHICH IS RAW TOWN GANDALF.

FACE IT CHESS THAT'S A SCUM DRIVEN WAGON

Chesskid needs to stop derping etc. etc. Dammit, don't lynch town, lynch scum.

[WrathChild]

UNVOTE; VOTE:Gandalf

I'll still gladly lynch Am though.

This makes me think RBT and Implosion may be scummates.

I don't think Gandalf is scum, but will do an ISO and related read on him soon.

Over the long weekend I had a bit of a RL crisis and have been only to read/catch up on my crappy WhispNet (Kindle), which is incredibly tough to read on. My post depth is adversely affected by this and I just tonight had time to catch up on the real internet and naturally have a bazillion other things to do with this time.

However, there is something that has been bothering me this whole time I've been slowly crawling through this thread, trying to catch up from the long weekend...

Beefster.

He went from: "Derp! Yeah! I don't have to read and can be lazy! Yeah! Screw actually reading anything carefully!" to a very in depth poster who has detailed theories and reads on different people. This was just over the course of about 4 RL days. It is a huge posting style flip and it bugs me. If we aren't going to lynch him, fine, but I don't like what I'm getting from him.

That being said if we are really narrowing down to RBT, Implosion, or Gandalf I pick RBT.

VOTE: RBT

[inHimshallibe]

But but but.

unvote
vote Icey
unvote
vote Riceballtail

[SGRaaize]

I feel like we're actually making PROGRESS.

[inHimshallibe]

I feel like we're actually making PROGRESSKID.

FTFY

but really. A list, we needs it.

[inHimshallibe]

TO DEATH - just die already
2- gandalf5166
5- Riceballtail
7- Bunnylover
11- SnakePlissken
13- Soben
15- PeregrineV
16- BabySpice
22- implosion

TO APATHY - on deck
6- Katy (have you posted in the last X pages?)
18- Zdenek (who? what? how? when? seriously do something imo)
23- Feysal (why do I not remember anything you've done)
14- Beefster (town read tbqh)
9- Amrun (peepz more in tune than I saying town so whatevs)

TO LIFE - new kids on the bloc
1- CryMeARiver
3- A Gaggle of Geese
4- Albert B. Rampage
8- IceyCupcake
10- Dry-fit (ffs let me have one or two mostly unsubstantiated townreads)
12- WrathChild ("")
17- LynchMePls (I need to see why the hell people were voting this cat.)
19- Mana_Ku
20- inHimshallibe
21- SGRaaize (Has crossed from Death to Apathy to Life. Quite remarkable)

[inHimshallibe]

It is no coincidence that all three of the current competing wagons are on the ol' death list.

[Soben]

I agree with Icey, the gandalf wagon is full of fail and likely is an attempt to prevent an implosion or RBT lynch of going through. Even after implosions case on gandalf was torn to shreds he's still continuing to push the lynch instead he's stopped giving reasoning for it. Also notice the vote movement throught the last few pages, people have been jumping on the RBT/Gandalf lynches very quickly in comparison to the previous voting speed.

Town:

ABR, Chesskid, Manu_Ku, SGR, IceyCupcake, CMAR, WrathChild, Baby Spice, Gandalf, Beefster, Dry-Fit.

Null:

inHimshallibe, LMP, BunnyLover, Amrum, Kat, SnakePlussken.

Scum:

Implosion, RBT, Zdenek, PeregrineV.

Spoiler: Read the following quotes:

As I'm thinking about it, I'm ambivalent about ABR's mass-shooting plan. It is obviously possible if we just select one target for scum to protect if they have any sort of protection, and if we select multiple targets same thing since they're unlikely to all be scum,

plus scum could be able to protect or redirect attacks on one of the targets if one of the targets is scum. I still kind of like the idea, though.

If scum only has a limited amount of protective ability, this could use it up. If they don't have any, well, it could eliminate scum roles. Plus, if we target any third parties, they are less likely to be defended.

tl;dr most (not all) of this post:

stop trying to use game mechanics that we do not know the details of as a basis for a plan that would shape the entire game. It's stupid and foolhardy

, and S_B probably has something in place to stop it, and S_B even warned us SPECIFICALLY not to try to break the game.

Even if it could backfire, I kind of like the idea of attacking lurkers.

Even if scum do have some kind of redirection/etc ability, it's a good motivator.

I also sort of understand what you're saying about the lurker point, but I'm not saying that all the lurkers are town. If they're town, hopefully they'll be motivated. If they refuse to stop lurking, then they're probably likely mislynches anyway.

If they're scum, then woo, dead scum.

Well first of all, there isn't even a guarantee of redirection (plus the only type of redirection that would really matter would be bus driving, as opposed to direct redirection targeting a single person's action). I've also (I think somewhere) expressed the possibility of limited-use protective abilities in scum hands, which could make this plan a good thing.

The worst thing that happens is that we injure or lose a town-looking town-aligned player but learn about scum abilities. However, we could also have benefits (like pushing lurkers to post more, avoiding mislynches, killing scum, making scum use limited-use abilities). Essentially, it's setup speculation.

But I feel like it isn't as risky as, say, the "claim at L-1" plan.

I'm saying that lurkers are more likely to be lynched, even though lurking is not indicative of alignment. Sort of what you're saying, except in a way that doesn't make it sound stupid. You can't deny that fact, that lurkers are more likely to be lynched.

You also probably won't deny that lurking alone is a nulltell.

All these show that;

1. Implosion doesn't like setup speculation however is perfectly fine trying something to "See what happens" even if it leads to town-looking town players dying at night.
2. He understands that redirection mean that we're less likely to hit scum yet still wants to create a mass-target system.
3. He understands and states that lurking is a null-tell however still wants to push for lurkers to get targetted rather then his actual reads.

[SGRaaize]

Just change your vote to RBT if you think he's scum too, Soben, Implosion can wait.

[A Gaggle of Geese]

unvote

Vote: icey

unvote

Vote: rbt

Inhim's list is excellent.

[SGRaaize]

L-3, I would normally ask for a claim at this point, but...

[IceyCupcake]

Hey boys and girls, lurking is not a null tell.

Being absent from the site might be a null tell, but lurking is anything but. When a player is somehow around to cast votes on certain wagons, or to defend themselves, but other than that posts infrequently and with little content, it's not a goddamn null tell. It's a fucking scum tell.

/ICE

[Soben]

inhimishallbe, what exactly do you have against us? I noticed you had us in your list of people to die. I feel both myself and R have been quite active this game and I'm surprised you read as scum. It would help me to understand where you are coming from so I can try to alleviate any concerns you have about our alignment and to understand your intentions.

[Soben]

It is no coincidence that all three of the current competing wagons are on the ol' death list.

What do you mean by this? You think all 3 wagons are scum? That is incredibly unlikely.

[SnakePlissken]

Unlikely but not impossible?

[gandalf5166]

Unlikely but not impossible?

No, its basically impossible. It only has the tiniest fraction of possibility because this is probably a multiscum game.

[Soben]

Everything in this game needs to be simplified. 50+ pages is impossible to go through.

I have the night of, I'll see what I can do. I've gone through the first 10 pages so far though.

Pages 1-10

- Icey requests that people vote them before voting elsewhere which is followed by speculation on the purpose of this.
- Gandalf selfvotes and then accuses Pine of overreacting to it.
- SGR complains about the start of the game while stating reads, this follows with votes starting to pile on him and Gandalf.
- ABR questions if everyone has a damaging ability while stating he has multiple, attempts to gain peoples thoughts on organising a mass-attack plan on night one.
- Implosion votes Soben to attempt to reveal their hydra heads, this follows with people attacking him for not placing his vote on someone he suspects
- CMAR believes that Katys accusal of SGR being a wizard was a slip, people read this as a town-slip by CMAR.
- CMAR suggests that if a player is getting lynched they should claim power role or not rather than name claiming.
- Soben states they believe Icey is town but disagrees with voting them due to potential risks involved.
- Discussion occurs over why Soben doesn't follow Iceys request if they believe him to be town, votes start piling on Soben.
- Soben explains that it's fear of Icey being a third party. Discussion occurs over third parties win conditions.
- SGR states intention to create a defence post as well as an analysis on the bandwagon on him which he follows up on.
- An argument occurs between LMP and SGR over SGR reading Pine as too serious.

[A Gaggle of Geese]

Skim of Bunnylover in ISO reveals he's got a good chance of being scum.

[A Gaggle of Geese]

Yes. The RVS is meaningless interaction, without any reasoning whatsoever. Interaction is the strongest tell, as it is the primary difference between scum and town. In the RVS, scum can't make excuses based on peoples play for treating them differently. So its far and away the most information rich phase of the game. I don't think I need to explain why ending it is proscum. ESPECIALLY since it was LMP doing it. He has personal experience with my abilities to detect scum in RVS. I've said all of this before.

this guy is really town? wow. just wow.