Return to Gambits (SK Win!)

[Surye]

Seriously I'm confused.

Unvote

I'm dropping it. No reason to continue this and lead to outright claims.

I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you are suggesting that you have info that makes C-Worl town. I'm not seeing anything in the provided pms that suggest that you could have info that way, so is this a meta read?

You stated within the same post that there is no way I could have inside information so why even suggest the idea?
Yes, you could call it meta read.

Doooon't like this.
No one mentioned or were anywhere near claiming. And then you drop this like you we breadcrumbing. Then when you were called out, you changed to meta. What would meta have to do with claiming, why would you even bring up claiming.

VOTE: CryMeARiver

[Surye]

Wait, does this mean we're leaving the RVS stage? (Sorry, I'm sorta confused.)

It can be a bit murky, just go with it.

[Surye]

I was going to say we should MC. But then I thought and no I'm not going to say.

lolwut

Really.

You want justified bandwagons in RVs? If I had a justification it wouldn't be a RV.

I didn't say I want justified bandwagons. I don't want bandwagons at all, because their only justification is that they are a bandwagon. If you have a reason to suspect someone is scum, then you're voting that player not because you are "jumping on the bandwagon," but because you think the player might actually be scum.

Furthermore, RVS is random only for the town. Scum know who each other are, so for them the voting is not random. Therefore, they have a little bit of leverage (in their power of numbers, even if there are only a couple of them) to direct on whom the bandwagon falls. Occasionally, we might get lucky and see a bunch of townies randomly bandwagoning a scum; but it is much more likely that we end up with a townie getting bandwagoned, and that townie is more likely to be lynched than those who voted him -- because someone,

anyone

, can discern a "scum read" in the tea leaves of his reaction. If no one else does it, one of the scum can throw that first stone -- but usually there is a useful idiot in the town to do it first.

Bandwagons that start page 1 rarely lead to a lynch in my experience, but they get discussion going very nicely. Establishes early voting patterns and stances against players.

Like this cool wagon on CMAR.

[Surye]

We seem to be arguing scum hunting theories in this thread more than we're actually scum hunting. Mafia is an ever evolving game. As we learn the things scum do the scum learn not to do them and you'll always see townies who do those things on accident. What may have been an accurate strategy last month could be outdated this month. Therefore if people vote each other for contrasting theories (the rvs wagon for example) then the best thing is to just let them bc we can eventually learn things just by seeing how they react to each other in a one on one situation.

We're not mass claiming Vezo. Not on D1.

Vezo has permanently broken my scumdar for him by being consistently and constantly scummy. Frustrating as hell.

[Surye]

We seem to be arguing scum hunting theories in this thread more than we're actually scum hunting. Mafia is an ever evolving game. As we learn the things scum do the scum learn not to do them and you'll always see townies who do those things on accident. What may have been an accurate strategy last month could be outdated this month. Therefore if people vote each other for contrasting theories (the rvs wagon for example) then the best thing is to just let them bc we can eventually learn things just by seeing how they react to each other in a one on one situation.

We're not mass claiming Vezo. Not on D1.

I'm very confused at to what point the bolded served at all...

It's pretty clearly trying to derail the current conversation as calling it pointless. Even though it's not.

[Surye]

She's just jumping on the sitewide bandwagon against Vezo.

[Surye]

That's exactly what I'm thinking. He makes me laugh because of his stupidity and oblivioun, but it makes me frustrated too!

Please explain why you bother posting then? What you're doing is generally called active lurking.

Um? Doesn't this second post strike anyone a bit odd when it seems jil is familiar with vezok?

Why do you care about others opinions so much?

Other's expressions of opinions are often great for scum hunting. Keeping note of D1 interactions can prove useful later. Why question and implicitly discourage questions, especially this early in the game?

[Surye]

Why do you care about others opinions so much?

Before Surye ninja'd me I was going to say it was semi-rhetorical.

@Surye, why you answering CMAR's question to me? Me-thinks CMAR was reaction-fishing.

Because I thought you post was bad and wanted to point it out.

[Surye]

Ebwop: And by you, I mean CMAR

[Surye]

I don't need to be asked questions to scum hunt. Discouraging questions is not very protown.

[Surye]

May I ask why you have a town read on me and Surye?

I'll be honest, I'm really liking jil's posting.

[Surye]

vezokprika

[Surye]

vezokprika

EBWOP This post was an accident, haha. Doing my read write up. Coming soon.

[Surye]

it appears to me that Surye is guilty of the crime he accuses CMAR of committing -- implicitly discouraging questions by questioning the question.

I was waiting for someone to bring this up, however, it's not inconsistent. My post was pointing out the problem with his question in my mind, as well as attempting to encourage questions. I realize it is a fine line, and I risked that when posting it, but I still thought it was important to say.

My vote goes on the next person to say the word claim or mc. Anyone who is pushing an MC to me is likely trying to setup a gambit with nks. Town won't benefit, as it will be harder to confirm claims, causing more confusion than normal. Scum however WILL have more information.

My current 5 page reads (aka, not worth much, but they may be useful later, also, they are ALL LEANING, no solid reads yet):

Leaning Town:

• Cobblerfone - Purpose with most every post, lots of good posting.
  
• Nocmen - Called something WIFOM that wasn't, but may be difference of interpretation. Called against MC. Joined on the best wagon.
  
• jilynne1991- Good line of questioning, seems like town trying to get a grasp on the game. The only issue I see is getting so side tracked on Vezo.
  
• Sathoris - Every post has been a good post.
  
• Ironhead - Seems to be genuinely scumhunting, calling me out on the grey area of my question showed he's paying attention (whether we agree or not). This is null to town, need to see more content.

Leaning Scum:

• CryMeARiver - Began mentioning claiming as a non-sequitur, and backtracked when called out saying he meant meta, THIS DOES NOT FOLLOW. Also discusses things outside the game like Jil's /in list. Then back to "if people keep pressuring me on the first page business, it will result in the claims of more than one person" after he said that roles couldn't have had anything to do with it, and it was meta. Also don't like how he has only called out town reads, and nothing for scum reads. Strongest lead here. Hence the best wagon.
  
• C-Worl - Super defensive during RVS, then complains about arguing theory over scumhunting.. without ever scumhunting at all.
  
• vezokprika - Scum - Started the MC nonsense, EVEN after stating it was a bad idea in the same post. But I'll be damned if a read on Vezo means anything.

Lurkers/Null:

• DeityKabuto - Null - Zero posts AND unconfirmed.
  
• Wredfar - Null - Zero posts
  
• TheJakalope - Scum - Only made one post, but I don't like it, clearly expresses disinterest in hearing CMAR's reads.
  
• TheMask - Null - Doesn't seem to be paying attention, and has only posted twice. :/
  
• Monk - Null - Honestly, nothing of value yet. zzzz
  
• earworm - Null - Can't seem to get a read...
  
• sorasgoof - Null - 3 content posts. All of them seem to cancel themselves out (here's meta, it means nothing; here's how he plays, it means nothing) which would seem like active lurking if I didn't like the post on CMAR's PR contradiction so much.

[Surye]

Unvote

....No clue what I thought I saw yesterday. Surye is on the scumlist for his jittery post, threatening people if they say CLAIM. Cmar chilled out. I wish to get a read from wred and DK before I jump to making pairings, etc. I solidly have jil on the townlist now. Cobbler, town would be kind of dumb to make themselves known. I do think we should making hypothetical list, like if we're cop/hider, who would we target. I'd self investigate at the moment and hide behind.. well, nevermind. Just saw a flaw with that one.

jittery post?

[Surye]

Yes. Threatening players with a vote is unneeded. Obviously, no one is going to bother with the idea again after being warned off by you. Not sure if it was Ironhead's comment that got you riled up or not but it's more the fact that you announced how you'd base a future vote, rather than waiting for someone to suggest massclaiming again. Nehh,

vote: surye

. Still not sure what it was I saw yesterday. Probably just misread Ironhead's post.

How is that jittery? And yes, I threatened as I was frustrated that the idea was being taken seriously. But anyways, what do you think of the rest of my post? My reads?

[Surye]

I'm confused by the CMAR wagon. I don't know what he saw from me P1 that pissed him off and then apparently made him think I was town but I haven't actually seen him do anything scummy. His style of play seems rather townish though researching meta is stupid bc people change their behavior over time due to the nature of this game.

It;s difficult for me to scumhunt in the first 6 pages of the game so forgive me for not doing much, considering I normally have only a few hours a day now to do so and most of my time is used catching up in around half a dozen different games.

@Surye, What makes you believe I was being super defensive during the RVS stage? Do you have quotes to support your accusations?

Gladly

Actually, you deserve to be voted for being so stupid.

Unvote; Vote: CWorl

...The fuck?

??? ooooookay....

Why are people voting me without reasons?

All completely pointless, over defensive, bad posts.

[Surye]

Haven't read, just skimmed the page. Does no one but me think Jackalope is scummy?
(@Sanye: You said I've only posted townreads. Almost positive I mentioned Jackalope being scummy somewhere)

Where? You vote him without saying what he's been doing.

This game certainly got started quickly. I skimmed the thread, nothing major jumps out, I'll try to get some reads later, but CMAR, who appointed you the man who decides who is town or not? Especially when you are making these judgements from very few posts. This isn't very scummy of you, just.. questionable.

Say whaaat? I'm not appointing people town. I'm telling people what my reads are. They can take them or leave them. I will use their reaction of my reads to judge them.

I actually don't see anything wrong with CMAR, but being able to make judgements that quickly make me think one of two things: 1) he might be really good at this game or 2) he's a loudmouth who should stop making assumptions so quickly.

Probably the 2nd one At least most of the time

@Jackalope: What's your reaction to a post like this?:

Earworm seems to be a smart played, but he's still a null read at the moment for me.

This is the only time you addressed him in any capacity.

Where's your supposed scum read?

[Surye]

@The Mask: why wait to place your vote on Surye? Couldn't you have just done it in your unvote post?

@Surye: Is there some particular reason you can't get a read on me?

I just see your posts as mostly null. Talk of RVS wagons, saying they are that, random. Then you vote someone on an RVS wagon. If anything that's slight scum read, as it's inconsistent, but I think we're at the point you can start analyzing the wagon, so it's a fair move.

[Surye]

I'm confused by the CMAR wagon. I don't know what he saw from me P1 that pissed him off and then apparently made him think I was town but I haven't actually seen him do anything scummy. His style of play seems rather townish though researching meta is stupid bc people change their behavior over time due to the nature of this game.

It;s difficult for me to scumhunt in the first 6 pages of the game so forgive me for not doing much, considering I normally have only a few hours a day now to do so and most of my time is used catching up in around half a dozen different games.

@Surye, What makes you believe I was being super defensive during the RVS stage? Do you have quotes to support your accusations?

Gladly

Actually, you deserve to be voted for being so stupid.

Unvote; Vote: CWorl

...The fuck?

He was mad at me. I was unsure why.

??? ooooookay....

That was in response to him unvoting amd referencing that I knew something.

Why are people voting me without reasons?

It was a simple question. RVS votes normally involve jokes to accompany them. They didn't even supply jokes. It was blank votes on provided by someone who hasn't played with me before. I was confused. If we all started voting for you without reasons would you not want to know why?

All completely pointless, over defensive, bad posts.

I think you're stretching.

I told you the reads are not solid, but that's my current leaning leads. You're over reacting to them. And bare votes in RVS happen all the time, I don't think I'd ever react to them like that that early. I still think you were overly defensive.

[Surye]

Actually here's a question:

Anyone who is pushing an MC to me is likely trying to setup a gambit with nks. Town won't benefit, as it will be harder to confirm claims, causing more confusion than normal. Scum however WILL have more information.

What do you mean? IF there were a mass-claim no scum-gambits would be allowed. They'd have a list of power-roles though. So how is this a proper reason against MC?

Also, I assumed I'd be able to analyze the number of kills to find out what CMAR was, but I realize now there are too many variables. I'll just say I think he's either the traitor or a certain PR. He's dropped too many gambit-hints.

VOTE: Surye

The gambits I was talking about, though I didn't want to spell it out exactly, is unchallenged counter claiming with no night kills revealed. This is why I didn't want this conversation to continue, we don't need to do scums job for them. Ugh.

[Surye]

is unchallenged counter claiming with no night kills revealed.

Wait what? How would that happen unless nobody waited? I'd think if we ever did MC that'd we wait for everyone to answer. That's why I set it up as a vote. If you mean a MC after today, well that's impossible. Heck, after today waiting for counter-claims won't work either.

Sorry, I may not be coming across clearly. Say 2 people claim vig, 3 people claim cop. You'd be in a situation that you wouldn't know the flip of the dead person, and there's no confirmation of the roles of the dead. Unless I'm seriously confusing myself here...

My initial aversion to MC is because I'm not used to seeing how this game mechanic works out, and I thought it seemed too convenient to hid the night kills from town. But I agree that after today, a MC is pretty worthless.

[Surye]

Just came back to say I just realized that Surye has been posting a lot but apparently didn't catch the mod confirming that lynches flip. And thus he's not paying attention.

VOTE: Surye
again.

You didn't technically ninja me this time deitykabuto. But, eh. I feel no shame.

Why does this matter? I know the mod confirms lynches. I never said they didn't. My concern was night kills. Why does this differentiation mean a vote/non-vote for me? Looks like you're trying hard to justify a vote on me..

[Surye]

is unchallenged counter claiming with no night kills revealed.

Wait what? How would that happen unless nobody waited? I'd think if we ever did MC that'd we wait for everyone to answer. That's why I set it up as a vote. If you mean a MC after today, well that's impossible. Heck, after today waiting for counter-claims won't work either.

Sorry, I may not be coming across clearly. Say 2 people claim vig, 3 people claim cop. You'd be in a situation that you wouldn't know the flip of the dead person, and there's no confirmation of the roles of the dead. Unless I'm seriously confusing myself here...

My initial aversion to MC is because I'm not used to seeing how this game mechanic works out, and I thought it seemed too convenient to hid the

night kills

from town. But I agree that after today, a MC is pretty worthless.

[Surye]

Why does this matter? I know the mod confirms lynches. I never said they didn't. My concern was night kills. Why does this differentiation mean a vote/non-vote for me? Looks like you're trying hard to justify a vote on me..

Then how does THIS make sense:

Sorry, I may not be coming across clearly. Say 2 people claim vig, 3 people claim cop. You'd be in a situation that you wouldn't know the flip of the dead person, and there's no confirmation of the roles of the dead.

SIMPLE lynch cops, tell vigs to shoot each other. You'd still have two other guys to find, but I don't see how having no night-flips affects this scenario.

Ugh, if you want me to answer this, I'll be helping scum even more. You really don't see how this won't work? HINT HINT, BP.

[Surye]

Why does this matter? I know the mod confirms lynches. I never said they didn't. My concern was night kills. Why does this differentiation mean a vote/non-vote for me? Looks like you're trying hard to justify a vote on me..

Then how does THIS make sense:

Sorry, I may not be coming across clearly. Say 2 people claim vig, 3 people claim cop. You'd be in a situation that you wouldn't know the flip of the dead person, and there's no confirmation of the roles of the dead.

SIMPLE lynch cops, tell vigs to shoot each other. You'd still have two other guys to find, but I don't see how having no night-flips affects this scenario.

Also, with 2 anti-two killing factions, lynching the cops wouldn't be enough proof.

pedit-backpedal out of what?

[Surye]

(assuming you refer to bulletproof SK) Then you lynch the vig that didn't die. You might as well come out and explain in full. We're not MC, so you can't worry about "helping the scum". Sounds more like you're trying to backpedal out of it.

No, I don't need to, I think it's a bad idea. Why are you pushing me so hard? On what? That I didn't want an MC? And now that YOU'VE decided we're not MC, what does it matter? You have not addressed any of my reads of comments on the game other than that I did not want MC. You're tunneling so hard I think you're lost.

[Surye]

My concern with the Surye posts is not MC strategy, but the fact that he didn't know one of hte main factors of the game (NKs aren't revealed publicly), as I worry what else he may not read later on.

When did I say I didn't know that? I knew that before this game started, what did I say that lead you to believe otherwise?

[Surye]

I just think it's not a good idea to talk about pro scum strategies at length. I know you are insisting, but do you not understand why I would think that's a bad idea?

[Surye]

I understand why it might be if there is absolutely no way to close the loopholes. Do you understand why I find it suspicious? If you can answer that question satisfactorily, I'll let you off about the other one.

Of course, in fact, in this exchange I've never fingered you as scum, I still have you as town leaning, as I did in my lineup. Town not answering questions is always work suspicion, and that's why I am trying to show why I am doing it in this case. There may be something I am missing, and maybe all loopholes can be closed, but I see no town benefit to discussing it and giving scum possible angles or ideas they don't already have when it would not help town in either case today (all risk, no reward).

Doing a reread now to get my scumhunting back on track.

[Surye]

Sorry for my inactivity, we got 2 kittens, and I've been the only one home, they kept me more busy than expected.

Okay, I've read up, and have a few things to say:
- Looking back over CMAR, I still have yet to see a protown post. From the claiming nonsense, to the "I called TheJakalope out as scum!!" while just throwing it there without explaination, to his "you're town, you're town" posts. This guy is still suspect #1 for me, and until he posts more, that won't change. I've got to look into how his wagon got derailed.
- I still don't like Cobbler as scum, and don't see the cases, he's been genuinely scumhunting.
- I still don't like C-worl's early reactions, but I'm not convinced yet.

[Surye]

What's with the Pine wagon?

I don't get it.

I don't get you, we moved on from Cobbler. Stop playing stupid townie.

That's not explaining why Pine is the next wagon.

[Surye]

Two votes in succesion is hardly starting a wagon. You can call it a wagon when he's on five votes.

Oh, I agree, while I didn't like vezo's remark, your reaction was even weirder. Had you replied to him like of replied to me, I'd have thought nothing of it.

[Surye]

Sorry for my inactivity, we got 2 kittens, and I've been the only one home, they kept me more busy than expected.

Okay, I've read up, and have a few things to say:
- Looking back over CMAR, I still have yet to see a protown post. From the claiming nonsense, to the "I called TheJakalope out as scum!!" while just throwing it there without explaination, to his "you're town, you're town" posts. This guy is still suspect #1 for me, and until he posts more, that won't change. I've got to look into how his wagon got derailed.
- I still don't like Cobbler as scum, and don't see the cases, he's been genuinely scumhunting.
- I still don't like C-worl's early reactions, but I'm not convinced yet.

Hate that I'm being ignored... no comments? How are we letting CMAR off?

[Surye]

That just sounds like an excuse for you to go and tunnel on Pine, and if say, you find he's town and mislynch, use his meta as an excuse?

They're not voting each other. And this is pretty much how DeityKabuto is. What are you looking at?

I'm staying with my vote. Surye has been talking about cops, MC, and kittens in dat iso. Your vote is still on CMAR which was..first post of the game, really? I see a supposed new point presented against CMAR, but overall there's no engagement with other players. Please define how CMAR is not being pro-town and why he is being singled out for it.

I think jily is an alt after a visit to Forum 62. My guard is up. Know this....do 13 year olds use words like hypocrite?

@earworm: Why did the timing of my vote matter?

IGMEO Sathoris

.

Wow, you have no idea how to read an iso do you?

[Surye]

I'm staying with my vote. Surye has been talking about cops, MC, and kittens in dat iso. Your vote is still on CMAR which was..first post of the game, really? I see a supposed new point presented against CMAR, but overall there's no engagement with other players. Please define how CMAR is not being pro-town and why he is being singled out for it.

Now I have more time to fully respond to this nonsense.

He complains that I am posting and discussing the game with everyone (something TheMask seems to not be doing), and you see NO engagement from other players? Really? That's all I've been doing. You remember an iso only has my posts right? I already listed, in detail, why I think CMAR has not been pro-town, then he disappeared.

And yes he was my first vote, your point? I'm your second vote. Is there some magic in that?

I can't tell if TheMask is just incompetent, or trying to justify a vote on me. Because I'm not a bandwagon at the moment, I don't see a scum motivation in that, which leads me to believe he actually believes all this.

[Surye]

LOL at The Mask calling me out for tunneling.

And if you read half the game, you'd know I was responding to rampant setup speculation going on well before I put in my two cents and tried to stop it.

No one seems to have any input on my issues with cmar (a big new one since my "case" was him saying he "swears he called Jackal scummy" and when called out, continues to "think he called him scummy" but cannot quote a single post where he legitamately did so). Yea, until the rest of the town, or atleast CMAR, address my issues with him, I'm gonna tunnel the hell out of him. He's the scummiest person in the game so far, nocmen's got nothing on that.

[Surye]

I think Surye is scummy.

DK not so much but he is just annoying.

Sorry. But can you tell me how to change, say how you want me to play?

State your suspects and

say why are they scummy

.

You've pointed out 3 people as scum. C-Worl, Cobblerfone, and Me, in decreasing order of reasons given.

[Surye]

Interesting that I am not connected to anyone, and am distancing. Even I can see a likely link with my tunneling on CMAR and conversation and subsequent defending of cobbler. Why do you keep doing that mask?

And it looks like no one will listen to my cmar case today, and I agree dk is a great wagon. VOTE: dk

[Surye]

UNVOTE: VOTE: DK

[Surye]

Formal case: DK has not contributed anything of substance in this entire game, but has trolled and actively lurked for days. Further, he claims a protective role and tries to deflect onto a different easy lynch.

Scum.

Real bodyguard should not counter-claim.

Unvote
Vote Pine

But I really am the Bodyguard. o.o

I am not lying on that behalf. That is why I think you're a confused shit townie or scum right now. You are deluded as you speak, because my claim was the truth. My vote will remain like this for the remainder of the Day, you just slipped.

Perhaps the worst post I have ever read. Ever.

[Surye]

Formal case: DK has not contributed anything of substance in this entire game, but has trolled and actively lurked for days. Further, he claims a protective role and tries to deflect onto a different easy lynch.

Scum.

Real bodyguard should not counter-claim.

Unvote
Vote Pine

But I really am the Bodyguard. o.o

I am not lying on that behalf. That is why I think you're a confused shit townie or scum right now. You are deluded as you speak, because my claim was the truth. My vote will remain like this for the remainder of the Day, you just slipped.

Perhaps the worst post I have ever read. Ever.

Stop hating, and post some actual content.

That's cute. But my god, First, you are angry someone doesn't believe your claim, like it's OMG obvious to anyone you're telling the truth. Then you say he's stupid or scum (for not believing your claim), then you proceed to get more emotional, then say that you'll vote him all day, because he "slipped". What was his slip, not believing your claim at face value?

[Surye]

No, stop pretending like you don't know what I'm talking about.

HIS SLIP WAS PUTTING PRESSURE ON A PRO-TOWN PLAYER, AND NOW YOU ARE DEFENDING HIM SO YOU BOTH ARE SCUM.

FoS Surye

No way can you be serious.

[Surye]

I'm not waiting a week for you to twiddle your thumbs and not post your reads. I'll hammer by the end of the day regardless.

um so even if I give you my unbiased report you will still hammer me when i haven't done anything scummy o.o

that sounds very smart

You have a laundry list of scummy things, most recently withholding reads saying "deadline!". Not to mention claiming way too early, then imploding in a pile of anti-town blasting.

How people are posting that you are not the lynch without any reasons is mind boggling.

[Surye]

I'm not waiting a week for you to twiddle your thumbs and not post your reads. I'll hammer by the end of the day regardless.

um so even if I give you my unbiased report you will still hammer me when i haven't done anything scummy o.o

that sounds very smart

You have a laundry list of scummy things, most recently withholding reads saying "deadline!". Not to mention claiming way too early, then imploding in a pile of anti-town blasting.

How people are posting that you are not the lynch without any reasons is mind boggling.

I don't get why you are putting any effort for a mis-lynch.

Enough with the talk, let me prepare my reads tommorow.

Put yourself in my position. Or anyone in town's position. What makes you so obviously town that your outrage at not taking your claim for granted is justified? Are you really that arrogant that you cannot realize you've given us no inherent reason to take your claim as truth?

[Surye]

Oh well, sleep won last night.

Um, don't lynch a town bodyguard. Even if you hate the player, they have a town power role and it's best to use our resources the right way.

So you believe his claim?

[Surye]

EBWOP: (obviously you believes it, it just didn't look like you even considered it was a fake claim)

[Surye]

Clearly breaking the rules and imho, should be modkilled and turned into neutral survivor. And blacklisted for shit like this. The fact that you promised and promised and promised reads, only to self hammer without giving them makes it clear you broke "play to win", and also, are even more likely scum.

[Surye]

Okay, Ironhead is naming names on the wagon to create a safety-net lynchpool and it reminds me even more of me from Cthulu Speed Mafia than Nocmen's comment. The difference being that Ironhead includes himself among the suspicious.

VOTE: Ironhead

I disagree, other than DK was bodyguard, we have no real information to confirm D1 thoughts, thanks to lack of night flips. I think wagon analysis is the strongest tool we have today. And even if it is not, I do NOT find it scummy he is using it, as it feels like genuine scum hunting.

Though I don't agree with the earworm vote. C-Worl is muuuuch better.

VOTE: C-Worl

[Surye]

Okay, Ironhead is naming names on the wagon to create a safety-net lynchpool and it reminds me even more of me from Cthulu Speed Mafia than Nocmen's comment. The difference being that Ironhead includes himself among the suspicious.

VOTE: Ironhead

If Ironhead hadn't posted that, who would you have suspected or voted when the day started, based on the information already there?

[Surye]

Been reading some more, and I think the more interesting players were OFF the wagon. Anyone who took the DK claim for granted strike me as knowing scum. DK's claim was executed in a flurry of WTFs, and doubting it, for any amount of time, was a town move. You know who didn't second guess it? Like they knew it was true already?

UNVOTE: VOTE: PeregrineV

And wredfar was not much better in that player slot. ISO #2 is the wishy washiest of posts. There's not much else to go on with either player in the slot, but I think it cannot be ignored.

[Surye]

It appears that Mask was trying to sheep m vote and fucked it up.

That is a bizarre way to sheep a vote, why would a quote even be involved.

[Surye]

Btw I was going to replace Monk but DK is on my blacklist. So instead I replaced Quilford. Lulz.

P-edit: It's not my first time at the rodeo (though, coincidentally, you were my mod for the first time at the rodeo).

Haha, I love it.

I don't like how everyone is sheeping yesterday's case against earworm, with no comment on the lynch or nks. And I keep getting ignored in this game No comment on my idea and vote?

[Surye]

@Surye- Your vote sucks, to be honest.
As for your logic...it was a forgone conclusion that DK was going to hang. There were few to no cases, it was all "policy lynch, policy lynch". So DK claimed, since that's what you do.
Now, your voting me because I believed him, whereas, you are inferring you thought it was a fake claim?
Do fake claims prevent policy lynches?
If so, please link me two games of comparable size in which a policy lynch candidate claimed and was then not lynched.

As for the NKs & lynch, DK claimed bodyguard and flipped bodyguard.
I had a town read on Sathoris because I liked his logic here even though I disagreed: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p3129860

This is some serious misinformation. He was at L-4 when he claimed. Since when was L-4 considered "claim time" and "forgone conclusion"? Are you kidding me? And then you go off on some unrelated tangent about fake claims and policy lynches. Also, want to take a position on who's scum? You answered my question posed to people voting earworm. Which would be fine if you had an action position.

I love my vote even more. earworm's sheeping isn't as scummy as Peregrine's behavior imo. Sheeping against DK is pretty cool.

[Surye]

@Surye- Whatever. Let's see how long you can coast on that until someone else calls you out.

Ironic coming from the guy who has yet to post a single vote. And the only player you have posted about was... who... oh yea, the guy who is calling you out. Other than a total null read on earworm.

Time for you to start playing.

[Surye]

Claim is believable, and I've been leaning town on Iron all game, have said so, and believe that was a good hider target.

I knew I didn't like this earworm wagon. Or the first Cobbler vote on Iron.

My vote is still good where it is, everyone should take a good look at PeregrineV.

pedit: The motivation is OBVIOUSLY due to a town read. If nocmen thought iron was town, and earworm's OBVIOUS motivation was thinking he was town, what's wrong with what nocmen said? You're barking up the wrong tree there PeregrineV.

[Surye]

Surye, I would like for you not to tunnel another person into the ground today. Though I will say Peregrine's reason for voting Nocmen is lightweight to me. Nocmen believing earworm's motivation =/= Nocmen believing earworm's yet-to-be-said reason for picking Ironhead.

That's not the only reason I am voting him. I don't care what you would like personally. Though I do appreciate you addressing my vote and reads, I seem to be ignored a lot in this game by everyone else in the town But until I have a better target for my vote and case, I will continue to be vocal about it.

Pine, don't you earworm would run the risk of being exposed if Ironhead isn't town? Even if Ironhead isn't aligned with earworm (SK vs. mafia) Ironhead would know earworm was lying..even better, if there was something like a cop guilty on Ironhead and we lynched him and he didn't flip town, earworm is dead meat. All the combined factors don't lead to earworm lying, in my opinion. If you're just giving him suggestions on what to do as hider, then sorry for butting in.

Unless you suggest lynching him today, all of this is moot without NK flips.

[Surye]

Last week has been nuts for me, playing catch up tonight.

[Surye]

Amrun, please, how is that post town? I don't like the meta only support. Her reads were all wishy-washy (I see no solid stance, just "is town, isn't town, and I don't know why, lol!!!), she had no solid scum reads, voted the easiest target even with the replace, and 634 was really really bad.

[Surye]

Get a wagon going, this game is already very boring.

Where is your vote right now? What do you think of the claim? Who is scummy. Why don't you play or replace out? You are worse than a lurker because you actively waste a player slot.

[Surye]

I'm not making a full towncase on someone - I have already made a fairly good one anyway.

Jilynne is town. I have played with jilynne scum twice and read through her completed scum game and played with jilynne town once and skimmed some other games.

She is town.

I don't like it... all meta, and your analysis of her play seems off, especially when you said she had solid reads on everyone. But you seem fairly confident, and I think pressing the issue won't help town. Besides, I wasn't super gungho about her wagon anyways, I like where I am, but I could use some company.

Jilly, have you read my posts on PeregrineV? Or any of our interactions? Comments on that? Also, why do you give earworm scummy to null, but ironhead town? Do you not believe the claim? Or do you?

[Surye]

coolies, I've caught up with all my games now, yay!
Now for my reads:

Town:

Cobblerfone
Deitykabuto
CMAR
Sathoris
jilynne
earworm
Surye
Ironhead

Scum:

Vezok

wredfar

PeregrineV

TheMask

null:

CWorl

sorasgoof

TheJackalope

Pine

SCUM

PeregrineV
Mask

Nocmen

Sorasgoof

Pine

C-Worl

Vezokpiraka

Cobbler
Surye
Earworm
Ironhead
Jily

(as per another post)

TOWN

Amrun replaced Quilford who replaced monk.
Monk's reads are at the top, Amrun's reads below.
2 distinct players,
One male, one female.
One US east coast, one Australian East coast.
One day1 reads, one day2 reads

Almost exact same reads? Who are you kidding? Might happen if you were town, but totally doubt it. Guessing you replaced into a scum slot, and it's easier using what the slot already posted then redo their work.

Unvote. Vote: Amrun

I told you guys. "easier using what the slot already posted then redo their work", Amrun clearly did a hell of a lot of work to catch up, that is insulting.

And "Might happen if you were town, but totally doubt it" is terrible.

As for Mask, I don't like his play exactly, but he feels like town to me. I just don't agree with his opinions. Pine, I need to re-read.

[Surye]

UNVOTE:

@Amrun I am sorry to hear that, thoughts go out to you and your family.

@PeregrineV The sanity part of the claim is good, it should hurt the scum's fake claiming, and makes it harder for you to fake claim now (as a CC would be easier, and not have the problem of the bodyguard where if it was fake, there would be two others). I don't like that you dismissed my case that simply, but oh well. Anyways, you are definitely not the lynch today.

Vezo and Jilly are next up for scrutiny. I'm not going to let them slip by with a VI/noob badge. Because amrun seem vehement about Jil, and Vezo's last posts were so awful, Vezo is good.

VOTE: Vezo

pedit, Ironhead, you read my mind. But where is your vote?

pedit, Amrun, Yes it's dumb, his insistence is worse, but I don't think it is in towns best interest to lynch him today.

[Surye]

Oh, Iron is already on vezo. Good show.

[Surye]

ITT people claim asinine things and we just beleive them.

VOTE: PeregrineV

How is that claim asinine in an open setup game?

[Surye]

My fault, I've been trying to catch up on the earlier pages first. I still feel like Pere went with the safest fake-claim and stuck with it. The fact that nobody CC'd only means that the potential "real" one just didn't want to out themselves and have us potentially down a nice PR.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Chkflip

You're trying to justify things you admitted you were wrong (or misleading about), as still being legit. And his "everyone attacked me because I was gone" with addressing questions was weak. And then voting vezok without actually looking at the game first? Because it was his competing wagon? All of these say one thing, he's not even trying to scum hunt, even when he is here. He's trying to not get lynched, and doesn't care who goes down in his place.

[Surye]

EBWOP: You didn't admit you were wrong, I misread that. But you are. A sanity with the claim made that a very unsafe fake claim. Come on.

[Surye]

I'm willing to hammer vezo, since he's not much of a player and he's null for me.

Just waiting for you guys to finish up the discussion.

Amrun, you still think she's totally town?

[Surye]

My fault, I've been trying to catch up on the earlier pages first. I still feel like Pere went with the safest fake-claim and stuck with it. The fact that nobody CC'd only means that the potential "real" one just didn't want to out themselves and have us potentially down a nice PR.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Chkflip

You're trying to justify things you admitted you were wrong (or misleading about), as still being legit. And his "everyone attacked me because I was gone" with addressing questions was weak. And then voting vezok without actually looking at the game first? Because it was his competing wagon?

All of these say one thing, he's not even trying to scum hunt, even when he is here. He's trying to not get lynched, and doesn't care who goes down in his place.

[Surye]

Ugh, Vezok is a force to be reckoned with, but he constantly surprises me with how insane he is. Cobbler, why are you stretching to defend Vezok, and not vote for him?

[Surye]

VOTE: Vezok

[Surye]

You guys...I am sooo sorry, but I really need to start cutting the crap out of my life, because I'm going to a math camp soon and then I'm trying to get into a boarding school, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to leave mafiascum, sorry. I really wish I didn't have to leave everyone like this, but I really don't want to waste my summer. I know I should have thought of this earlier, and I'm sorry for the inconvenience it caused you guys.

Being 13, means that I don't have to work and that, yes, I do have time to sign up for 10+ games.

We do have these rules and guidelines for a reason...

Vote: Vezok

, I don't think there's any reason or motivation for the SK/RB to block vezok. No scenario I can think of for that makes sense to me right now. Nor protecting someone other than a claimed cop.

Just for curiosity, who did you target previously, Vezok? What was your motivation to guard them?

I didn't guard anyone on night 1.

I had no strong leads and I like being alive.

Vezok, then why guard amrun? Seems counter to this day 1 knowledge, when you HAD a lead day 2.

[Surye]

Will be out of town till the 17th. I will be reading the game on my phone, and will reply, but will be limited on huge posts.

[Surye]

Does one normally get notified if you are role blocked?

[Surye]

And before anyone asks if I'm softclaiming anything, no, I'm thinking about the vezok situation and if he'd be notified.

[Surye]

^Scumclaim. Town doesn't hammer themselves without a DAMN good reason, like mine in NY129.

As much as I agree it was a stupid post, Scum doesn't either.

[Surye]

EBWOP: I also still think he is scum, just that this "scumclaim" doesn't hold much water imho.

[Surye]

Back from some personal things keeping me from my games. Vezok in light of the mod mistake is stupid, not scum. Nocmen is trying to lynch him for being antitown, not for being scum. He even sets up his mislynch excuse "it's vezo!"

Reading through once more, but noc's last post was terrible.

[Surye]

Vezok is scum. Let's not give him town-cred for also being stupid. Stupid scum acts just as scummy as stupid town.

Cobblerfone is very likely to be his partner.

I'm not giving him town cred for being stupid. I'm saying he said something that made no sense (sending an action and being role blocked) BEFORE the mod admitted an action didn't go through. There were 2 deaths, so he's not SK pretending to be RB'd BG. Stop ignoring the mod confirmed situation.

I currently like Cobbler for scum though, he seems to be slinging his vote today. Also not liking noc for the reasons I've stated... I'll think about which I think is scummier

[Surye]

1) Vezo made it clear he thought amrun was town the day before. 2) He said he bodygaurded, obviously that didn't happen as amrun died. 3) Mod said one of the night actions was missed. Lets see, what night actions do we know are left and possible... 1BG, 1SG, 1Maf, and 2 cops. We know SK and Maf went though, 2 kills and no vig. So either a cop result didn't go through, or a BG didn't go through. Vezo said he BG'd amrun (which may be a stupid choice, but that is beside the point), but amrun died and he didn't. Only after this the mod said he missed an action. How is that a leap of faith?

[Surye]

Yep I checked something.

I bodyguarded amrun last night.

I have no idea why is she dead.

How would he know of all games, of all nights, THIS NIGHT the mod made a mistake. You're the one making a leap. Pretending to BG and they dieing is not a gambit because you could have never seen that mod mistake happening.

[Surye]

... you took out a PR as well... that isn't really fair but w/e...

Mask is just awful...

Vezok is vezok.

He is unreadable beacause he's so stupid.. i'd rather vote the person i have a read on rather one i don't...... now that i think about it sorasgoof and vezok switch places.

Yes, when there is serious reasonable doubt that vezo is not BG, I cannot and will not vote for him as all the things ironman said is unfortunately vezo play. Pointless claiming, nonsense action choices, self preserving play. I won't let him get away with that. Unless I have reason to believe the the claim. And I have stated several times why I believe that's so, and I don't see why iron doesn't see it.

[Surye]

Anyone else want a fast wagon on Cobbler before deadline?

Cobblerfone only seems scum because of his relationship with vezokpiraka, who is confirmed scum. Let's lynch vezojkpiraka first, then lynch Cobblerfone tomorrow. If we lynch Cobblerfone first and it turns out that he isn't scum (low probability, but possible as he is not confirmed scum like vezokpiraka) then we may yet lose. We must lynch the confirmed scum to give us some breathing room from LYLO.

Hahahahahaha. Confirmed? That's rich. You may be town, but you've lost any credibility. Oh, and pulling the "I am town, my analysis is right" card? A joke.

I'm reading back on Mask, the deadline is looming heavily.

[Surye]

Wow, Mask early game and recently look like two different people playing. Early on he was all about "MUST FIND THE CONNECTION BETWEEN PLAYERS TO FIND SCUM OR LYNCH!!", and every post was calling someone out (often me) for being scummy for not having clear scum connections, and then finding pairs to call out as scum. Now that we're closer to lylo situation, he's all but stopped analyzing.

His early play is quite scummy, and he moved to neutral complacency. Given the impending deadline, and that I believe vezok is town, I think Mask is our best bet.

VOTE: The Mask

[Surye]

UNVOTE: need to think about this...

[Surye]

Ugh, now I wish I we were back on vezok, since we actually have a guilty on him. If vezok is SK, cobbler's interaction with him is different... though I tend to think given that we waited till the end of the deadline, we brought this on our selves. Cobbler is probably the best bet here, no lynch is a bad idea. VOTE: Cobbler

[Surye]

...vezo?

[Surye]

i'm still not that sold on vezo scum...

of all the things i've seen scum claim i have not seen a BG claim at all.

And Irons investigation?

[Surye]

I see a tunnel on vezok.

i don't see a guilty result on vezok.

I misremembered it. You are right.

[Surye]

I like Mask for today's lynch by far. I've not liked him all game, and Amrun/Monk's reads are consistant with him near the top, in context, seeming bussy and distancing.
VOTE: Mask

[Surye]

VEZOK!! UNVOTE RIGHT NOW.

Wait, what? UNVOTE:

[Surye]

I'm not going to settle on my reads until I hear back from you two. Is there something keeping you from listing reads?

Which two now?

[Surye]

Surye, your swift vote is uncharacteristic of you. Do you agree or disagree that you have been a careful voter during previous parts of the game?

I agree, but today's vote was a continuation of my vote from yesterday for the most part, and there's much fewer people to analyze at this point, and I have a lot more already thought about.

[Surye]

I do like this lynch I MUST BE SCUM.

Sora's lack of effort, even in the face of L-1 is concerning. It feels like he is just waiting for his wagon to dispel on it's own without saying much that would lead to his own sure lynch. And worse, makes no real attempt at scum hunting in the face of a lynching.

And that list of excuses takes a lot more effort then putting out opinions. But opinions can be incriminating.

And I didn't like nocmen yesterday, and while I could see the SK killing him off, I don't see scum killing someone people were calling out as scummy. WIFOM, blah blah, it still makes me question if he was the the last scum. So I want to work on the assumption we have 2 possible anti-town players left, better safe then sorry at this point.

Also, vezok's post is awful, iron liked him for scum in the face of all of the mod stuff, I wish he had investigated him. But I can't help but feel he's telling the truth, it just all adds up to me despite his play, which is frustrating.

[Surye]

Mask, can you weigh in? Calling the people voting him scummy isn't as suspicious as calling his would be hammerers town in my perspective..

[Surye]

What 180?

[Surye]

yesterday you were all for a vezok lynch and now?

Read my posts after the mod error announcement. At the end of the day I misremembered the guilty. But I was the one fighting iron for several posts against vezok. His tunneling and sureness caused me to remember his investigation incorrectly. Do you need me to quote from yesterday?

[Surye]

yeah iso 11 and onward you've been promising catchup..

My fries have gone cold.. also the vezok vote was mailed in..

AND I NEVER ORDERED THE OMGUS.

LYNCH.

No interest in hearing from Mask?

[Surye]

A: Quite a bit, I think SK wants to get to 1:1:1? Though I'm not sure what happens if they lynch town and it's Scum/SK left. I think in that position the SK could use past interactions of the scum with scum buddies to get him lynched though, which is an advantage.
B: Mostly your reads. They seem to have been inline with my thinking, and what I would expect from town.
C: Sora. He asked why he's anti town? I'm sorry I can't quote a set of posts to make a case. That's because he's prevented that, for what ever reasons, then proceeds to say "I'm scum, you can't prove it". That's BS. If he is town, he really fucked us up. But there's no way I'm going to let this kind of behavior let scum win. What I have to work with,

Kc, you're another post away from jumping ahead of Vezok on the scumlist, and doing that's almost impossible. You hadn't said ANYTHING about me until today, and now suddenly I'm your number one target? I've seen you dismiss what you consider scummy from Vezok "because it's Vezok." That's seriously your reason for not voting him?

Anyway, in no uncertain terms, give me why you think I'm mafia/SK/whatever you think I am.

Is terrible, the whole vezo thing is ignoring the mod issue as a serious line of reasoning. Not refuting it, ignoring it. Just like he basically did yesterday. And then he continues to say "FIND A REASON I AM SCUM". Well, post more and I'll find a reason you're town.

[Surye]

VOTE: sora

[Surye]

THERE WAS ONE KILL.

.... was there a no kill?

FUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK

Okay, lets put all this wifom aside for a second. Why are you so flip flop on me?

[Surye]

I was talked about much day one. I was on the defense and had to explain things like my aversion to an early MC, fend off Cobbler's attacks on me, and and even you put me front and center many times. I honestly do not understand what kind of scum tell "not being talked about" is even if it were true at all. And with sora, the late game situation made me re-evaluate him and study him in isolation. I'm sorry my analysis wasn't enough for you.

KCD, your posting today blew any trust I had of you out of the water. You're erratic, illogical, and acting like you're playing out some endgame despite the rest of your posting. Your no-lynch vote is so anti-town it's scary. Playing as if it's 1:1:1 is stupid at best, because we're left with little to no chance to win. So unless you have some insider knowledge, and are trying to coordinate something, you've just given up.

Given the assumption it's now 2:1, I'm still not sure who I like more as town. Honestly, it's frustrating because I think it may be Mask the way KCD is playing today, and I didn't expect that. And a no-lynch is a town loss. In almost any case. And you're really pushing it.

[Surye]

.... SK cannot be killed.

maf can.

Do YOU believe that the sk hit maf last night?

NOPE NOPE NOPE

So Nocman was town? And you know it?

[Surye]

BTW, after that last awful post by KCD, I don't see how he isn't SK, killed nocman scum, knows it's 2:1, and is trying to no lynch.

VOTE: KCD

[Surye]

Woooo! Thanks for the game Empking, this was my first SK role, so it was interesting.

I seemed to have decently avoided suspicion on the SK front, I don't think anyone named me as being SK likely specifically.

I was contemplating going with the no-lynch, but it would have been a bit of a gamble, because the no kill confused me on if I had bulletproof left. I had to win it without going into night.