Dr Who - Game over

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hello Snake, Zang, Surye, CES, bv, pappums and Nexus. Nice to see you again.

Greetings to everyone I haven’t played with or Modded before.

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On to business ….

VOTE: Zang

He’s always scum. Always. Every game I have played with him and every game I’ve modded that he’s been in he is always scum.

And he always wins.

It’s like a unwritten universal rule.

[MagnaofIllusion]

CES is being his usual useless self but I find myself agreeing with most of his FOSes.

Hoppster is incredibly annoying to read. He constant refrain of “What reaction did you expect to get” is rather useless when he’s pre-empted the actual reactions from some players (Zang for example) with his questions. He’s peppered Nexus with a number of hypothetical questions that don’t serve any serious scum-hunting (“Would you put Zang at L-2 if he was at L-3?’) but more as a means to produce as “Gotcha, inconsistency” attack.

--

I'm guessing he's a traitor again.

Innocent in-joke regarding a former game or covert attempt to reach out to a suspected traitor disguised as an in-joke?

Let me mull.

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Oooooh, Counter-wagons are fun.

Then why didn’t you try to start one as opposed to mindlessly wagoning along?

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This just happened in my other ongoing game...If I find out what it means, I will let you know

How does something going on in a DIFFERENT game have any relevance to the quick wagon on Zang.

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Me, I think it's null... or, unhelpful perhaps. They're certainly not helping, but I don't believe it's a scum-tell.

It is only a scum-tell if Zang is not scum. Scum have no reason to poke at the ‘beehive’ of a quick L-2 RVS wagon on Town. Town on the other hand (assuming Zang is Town) have every reason to question it.

So those who dodged commenting on the wagon are more likely to be scum if Zang is Town.

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Why not ask CES the same question?

When Hoppster asked you why you didn’t vote CES had an active vote – it is on you.

I'm shocked about how many people hate me, I'm angry that I missed RVS and im surprised that i can have such a big effect on the game without even posting but other than that I have no opinion on it.

1. How do you get ‘hate’ out of an RVS wagon? What players specifically hate you?
2. Why are you angry that you ‘missed’ RVS?
3. You have no opinion on the wagon? If I was Town and arrived to find a L-2 wagon on me Page 2 I’d certainly have an opinion of some sort.

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Seeing a FIVE-vote wagon in a Mini game RVS was a bit of a surprise to me - I think there's got to be scum somewhere on that bandwagon. I'll keep it in mind for later.

That only holds true if Zang is Town. Do you think he is?

1. What do you think of Zang’s “I’ve got no opinion” statement?
2. You were the third vote on said five person wagon. Ostensibly you know you are Town. What was your reasoning for further pushing the wagon?

Hoppster and Nexus is probably a townie fight, with an outside chance of Hoppsterscum using questions to confuse the town. That's a very outside shot though.

Zang tell detected. If Hoppster and Nexus are both Town Tar is possible scum.

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3 pages already. Hate being late to the party and for the record I would have voted on the Zang wagon. In fact I will

Why? Detailed answers please.

RVS Questions

There is no purpose to RVS questions other than busywork at this stage. You should have been filling your post with observations.

--

TL DR Summary –

Early gut / reaction reads of possible scum on Zang, Snake and Ant.

Tar, Hoppster and Pappums sit as relational possibilities.

Vote will stay with Zang.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because I was trying to make a witty comment.

I have no issue with being witty in context of a game relevant post.

But here you chose to be witty just for its own sake, which means you were just fluffing. I’m not a big fan of fluff.

Wait...so are you saying "If Zang is town, the people who didn't 'poke the beehive' are scum, and that other townies would have 'poked the beehive'"?

Summary – if Zang is Town (which I am not sold on at all currently) then scum are more likely to be found in those who either jumped on the Zang wagon or made some RVS vote with no comment at all about the Zang wagon (note that this does not include playes who specifically said they were Counterwagoning). That’s my take and thinking on the matter which I am not going to dwell on until we see a Zang flip.

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This is a reference to Mini 1120, the last game I played with GMan, where he was the Traitor and I was on the scumteam. Jason also modded that game.

Oh I understand the reference. I read along with that game. I’m just noting my immediate gut reaction when I saw it – possible reaching out to Traitor disguised as RVS fluff. I did the something similar when I was replaced into LMP’s KGM Mini Normal when I tried to contact DGB in thread.

^ Because I'm RVS'ing GMan, and will continue to do so until I am ready to leave RVS.

RVS is not some separate part of the game that is independent from the rest. The notion of RVS is just the name we give to that awkward getting things rolling portion of the game.

That you want to cling to a vote that has no game relevant meaning in your eyes and not vote someone you specifically called scummy is very suspect.

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Do you mean annoying to read as in you just find my posts plain irritating to look at, or that you can't get a read on me?

Annoying as making getting a good read on you difficult. My gut on reading your posts were scummy based on what I followed up with in that quote. That said I am fully congnizent it may be your natural playstyle that I am not familiar with.

I don't get it.

It’s a throwback to ooba’s Smalltown Stardust Mafia. Jack and I got into a heated battle regarding some non-sense attack by him very early. Zang cruised in and called it a Town versus Town conflict. I very much see people calling early game interactions T v T without significant play to base it on as fairly effective scum-tell. I call it my Zang Tell because he’s the one who made it stand out in my mind.

In this case Tar calling your conflict with Nexus as T v T on page 3 is noteworthy to me. Since it is purely relational I noted it as opposed to developing it further.

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[MagnaofIllusion]

I disagree. RVS is a separate part of the game. The point of it though is to get the real game started.

Feel free to disagree. You are still dead wrong. RVS is as valid a part of the game as any other. Scum have and will continue to be caught during RVS.

Why should I have an opinion on it? What sort of opinion am I supposed to have on it? IT WAS JUST RVS! It was reasonless, it gives me no insight on who is scum and who isn't and it was completely random

1. You are saying that the first five people to post and vote in this game just happen to randomly select you? Tar’s post alone where he RVS voted you and prompted discussion of that fact should clearly indicate there was more to it than complete randomness … Tar had clear intent to drive discussion.
2. You should, if Town, have some opinion about who might be the scum on that wagon. Because if you are Town that means odds are good that at least 1 scum is there.

In that game, it was a town vs town battle though and my alignment had very little to do with me calling it town vs town.

Are you seriously writing this? It had EVERYTHING to do with you calling it a Town v Town battle. YOU KNEW IT WAS. Please don’t pretend that had you not been scum your opinion would have been exactly the same. Every uniformed majority player in that game had an opinion about who was or was not scum between Jack and I.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Mod – I’ll be V/LA from 3pm EST today until Wedensday for an actual Vacation. I’ll have very limited access to internet, most likely by phone during that time.

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The amount of posts I see that are along the them of ‘I’m getting Town vibes from Zang despite his posting X,Y, and Z’ makes me suspect my read. Because I don’t see anything solid Town out of him. I sense some White Knighting may be afoot.

Hoppster’s post

73

observation about Zang’s inconsistent treatment of Ant and Snake re: content is a good catch.

CES’s

76

has definiatly crossed into complete uselessness from his slot. Bravo!

Still waiting to see response from Snake and Tar’s further replies to direct questions.

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Unvote
VOTE: Ant_to_the_max

Elaborate on why highlighting the word Yet in that sentence is good support for your vote.

--

Since GMan isnt here, I'm going to go ahead and

Unvote
Vote: Hoppster

What happened to your stance that you were going to stubbornly have your RVS fun? GMan hasn’t posted and it was only 9 hours since you established said previous stance.

All this talk about inspecting the wagons for scum is bullshit. It's RVS, people can claim any reason they want for voting someone in RVS, and no one would be any the wiser as to who is who unless someone makes a big dumb mistake, which probably isnt going to happen when the people in question are experienced players. That kind of scumhunting technique is better suited for looking into newer players.

Veteran players can and do make textbooks mistakes when scum in RVS. Because they are scum. The specifically have to craft their posts as opposing to playing naturally. I can point you to [REDACTED] in [REDACTED] at some later point. Some more scum-points for Mr. Pappums.

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Any scum lynched because of the RVS is either because of chance or their stupidity.

You don’t understand what I am saying. I’m not saying that scum are caught solely by RVS. I’m saying that RVS can and does contain valid information that can be used based on later play to catch scum.

Outright dismissing information from RVS as useless is stupid.

You could randomly pick any 5 people in this game and odds are good that at least 1 scum is on there and that is pretty much what you are doing.

That’s a pure straw-man. I am hardly picking these players out at random. The fact that the first five votes of the game just fell on you isn’t random behavior.

Yes, all the uniformed players but the lurkers didn't. At that point I was lurking pretty hard. The lurking as well as me calling it town vs town was actually because I was uninterested in the game and to lazy to properly analyze your posts because they were so boring. It had absolutely no relation to me being scum and anything I do rarely does except when claiming and possibly when only three players are left.

Insert face-palm pic here …

[MagnaofIllusion]

In other news, where the hell is bv310?

A good question.

Even better question -

Where in the hell is GMan?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from vacation.

I'll be making a good catch-up post at some point tommorow. I need to re-read but know from my quick phone skimming this last 5 days that there are things I need to comment on.

UNVOTE: Zang... after the last vote count I despise my wagon company.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Welcome Rufflig …

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I don't see how that's a strawman. You are picking randomly. Your picking the first five people to post, anybody else could have posted in their place and you would be talking about them instead. The fact that the votes fell on my is random behavior. The first person to post could have just as easily picked somebody else to vote for.

The first five votes all landed directly on you. That’s not random behavior no matter how you slice it.

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Hmm didn't see this one till Tar actually quoted it. That is interesting that Magna writes of the possibility of scum being on the Zang wagon if Zang flips scum. Covering tracks if Zang actually flips scum here?

Hmmm … so let me get this straight.

You see a possible relational tell between myself and Zang if Zang is scum. And your choice is to vote me over him based on a relational tell you have no evidence is actually in play. With no other comments about why my play indicates I’m scummy to you.

Gotcha.

@Ant

– what do you think about Zang?

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Uh, that holds true REGARDLESS of whether Zang is town - seriously, RVS is a great time to catch scum distancing from each other. The speed at which votes four and five were placed on him, however, suggests that Zang is town, and is a major reason why I'm still willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I only think it holds true that scum MUST be on that wagon if Zang is Town. It certainly is possible that if he is scum there is Zang is scum but I wouldn’t slot it at 100%.

But I think this is in the ‘splitting hairs’ realm.

Hmm, fake-daykill must have become more common recently. Darn.

Actually it is common enough that people make RVS jokes using Daykills and when one actually happens it throws people for a loop.

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Think about it. Why would a town player say "I am not feeling this wagon yet"?

Because they didn’t see strong evidence of scum-play at that point.

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My first thoughts back are this. Ive played with Nexus a fair few times offsite and whenever he gets really aggressive & into arguments fairly easily he's more often than not scum

Links to support this Meta assertion, please.

Failing that if I have o be drawn on day 1 I will throw in random comments to gain reactions, hence the screwdriver comment. It will generally draw out an eager scum or role fisher. So the screwdriver gambit gave me a town response from CES, Nexus usual aggression and Zang, drawing attention to a role. Which if your town you keep to yourself to protect town.

I don’t ever recall you gambitting in the games we’ve played in the past for reactions. Is your premise that anyone who reacted to what looked like a very premature claim when you were under pressure is scum?

VOTE: Suyre I believe this is now L-1 let's see what happens next.

So you put the person you’ve stated no suspicion of at L-1 to see what happens?

VOTE: Snake.

I’ll re-read Surye today and will be checking into his wagon also.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ugh, I'm having a hard time getting into this game, which is too bad. I was going to post the other day, and mafiascum was down on my lunch. I'm rereading again, and will give reads. Since I've been put at L-2, I'm not going to claim.

Ok, so first you had new kittens distracting you. And next you say MS was down when you went to post here.

How do you explain your approximately 15 to 20 other posts in other active games while you did not post here over the last 2.5 days?

Certainly MS wasn’t down then and your kittens clearly didn’t stop you from posting in them.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOD – I’ll be V/LA from 4pm EST til Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties. As usual I will probably have some time to post but it is not guaranteed or predictable.

I’m actually getting Town vibes from Zang at this point. He’s made several points I think are sound and well-reasoned.

@Tar

– I don’t see that you answered the following question from Zang in post 152. If you have please say so and I re-dig through your ISO. If not please answer it –

It still seemed to me that you implied that VI was town. As you said enterprising scum would say "bah, go town" to seem like town but it seemed to me like you thought that a VI would be the actual townie that says "bah, go town".

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Major FoS: SnakePlissken

Please elaborate why you feel the need to use FOSes instead of moving your vote. CES does not appear to be a viable wagon at this point. Why are you keeping your vote languishing on a 2 vote and unviable wagon?

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Yup and a dead snake is worth less to the town than a dead ces, but that isn't a strong enough reason for me to vote ces.

Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough lynches to get rid of all the dead weight in this town before we lose.

All I can do is point out how anti-town a player's style is and apply pressure in hopes that the player will amend his ways and actually help the town. The more active the town is, the less the scum can hide by being inactive.

Does anyone else see the underlying assumption here that Rufflig knows that both Snake and CES are Town (I’ve bolded the phrase that caught my eye)? Specific use of the term dead-weight implies that they are Town aligned.

@Ruffling

– How do you propose that we pressure CES (who you have said is dead-weight to Town) if you aren’t willing to vote him?

@Rufflig

– What alignment significance do you assign to Surye’s statements about not being at L-1 so not claiming? Regardless of whether he was technically L-2 or L-3 the fact remains that Tar unvoted him so wasn’t at L-1 with an offered hammer.

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OK, cool.

So exactly what did you expect to get out of Tar with your ‘Quick, how many votes’ question?

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Surye claim. I will hammer if you don't claim in your next post, since Snake isn't getting lynched. Also try to provide something helpful, k?

If you think he is scum (which you should since you are willing to hammer) why are you asking him to provide something helpful?

Also, why didn’t Snake’s pretty bad hop onto the wagon dissuade you at all from potentially hammering Surye? You’ve pretty much staked out that you want Snake lynched and thus he is scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because Surye is my #2 and Snake wasn't looking to be lynched, since y'all are falling for his "I'll be helpful tomorrow" crap. Since he's throwing up meta-he's never helpful.

CES pretty much nailed this in his response but I'm still going to address it.

Snake is the actual leading wagon with 5 votes to Surye's 4. If you were keeping up with the thread you'd see that.

And please indicate who is exactly 'falling' for his statement? I don't recall seeing any significant responses that say "Oh, Snake makes sense".

[MagnaofIllusion]

Jesus fuck I have to pay more attention to the wagons then. Last I checked Surye was the biggest. Whoops.

Yeah, disregard that. Carry on.

You know what is missing from this post? A vote for Snake.

Nexus's claimed Number 1 suspect who says he isn't voting solely because the wagon wasn't viable.

Yet when presented with evidence that it is viable he goes "Whoops, my bad, I need to pay attention" and nothing else.

Iron Fist of Suspcion - Nexus

[MagnaofIllusion]

Derp he is ...

I forgot that he only threatened to hammer Surye.

IronFistofSuspicion

- rusted by stupidity

[MagnaofIllusion]

UNVOTE: Snake
VOTE: Ant

Yeah, I notice that I'm all animal oriented with that unvote / vote combo.

Capturing this for my edification -

Snake 5: Rat, Nexus, MOI, Cogito,Surye (Lynch -2)
Surye 3: BV3,Username,Snake
Rat 2: Hoppster, ruffling
CES 1: Zang
MOI 1: Ant
BV310 1: Tarh,

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Your post has a tone which I want to describe as patronising, but it's not quite the same in my mind.

It's part-patronising, part-gleeful, part-mocking, part-just-plain-evil.

I don’t see that myself. Actually his reaction to the Daykill was similar to mine … a mixture of annoyance and boredom. I understand that Tar isn’t up on the current site meta but the use of a Daykill Day 1 has become a rather passé joke, IMO.

@ everybody: Can you all stop ignoring pappums? Seriously, look at his ISO, it's so incredibly inconsistent, and his vote on Snake is horribly horribly opportunistic.

I don’t think he’s being ignored as much as we have too many players who are playing in a scummy fashion. I agree with your assessment here and having pappums in my “will lynch Day 1” pool.

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1) Yup, I see the assumption, but the reason for the assumption is wrong. In my experience, a lurker is much more likely to flip town than scum.

We can debate this post-game but I disagree with this stance.

2) Actually, I'm willing to vote for him. You want to back me on a pappums rat or ces vote?

I would support a pappums wagon. CES I’m going to have to see VC Analysis to make a solid judgement on his alignment.

Here’s a question

– would you support an Ant vote with me?

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Hoppster in this game reminds me of myself in Mini 1120. As scum, I went after Darla who I tried to paint as active lurking. She was an easy target for scum to go after because she rarely posted and when she did she often didnt have a whole lot to say.

Invoking self as ‘easy target’? Ding!

My vote on Snake was not opportunistic, he is scummy as hell, and his vote to put Surye at L-1 (which wasnt really L-1 but he thought it was) cements his position as scum in my mind, not to mention his terrible reasoning for not participatiing in day 1.

So he was so scummy as hell that he didn’t show up in your ISO at all until you voted for him while he was under pressure? Gotcha.

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I guess my post didn't go through...
Most of it was directed at Snake. Will repost it when I can.

How will you repost it? Is it stored somewhere? If so why didn’t you just post it now?

I went on to mock his fake claim. Reasoning behind it was very weak and seems like crap to me. I can understand reaction testing but that was just weak. He goes on to say that pro town people would not try and bring things like that up to the surface and prod it, but name claiming does not equal breadcrumbing. There is nothing to "hide" when you flat out claim something like that.

Also went on to say how opportunistic the L-1 vote was.

So all of this scummy behavior wasn’t worthy of a vote? Survey says …. Scummy!

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I followed from the previous vote count thinking Suyre was at L-1 with my vote, so if my info was incorrect ah well not my fault and certainly not scummy or else I would have waitied for the hammer vote would I have not?

WIFOM .. you’re soaking in it!

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In fact, I'm bored of this now. Snake: there is a marked difference between my scum games on the UKFF and my scum games here. The games on the UKFF require a different approach.

So you are going out of the way to make two arguments as I see it –

1. You aren’t playing aggressively here.
2. Your MS meta isn’t to play aggressively as scum.

Hmmmmm ….

[MagnaofIllusion]

I would support a pappums wagon. CES I’m going to have to see VC Analysis to make a solid judgement on his alignment.

What do you think of CES? Why do you need a VC analysis? How would that help?

Because CES is playing like every direct iteration of CES I have ever seen. For me the test with him will be Day 2 to Day 3 (if I'm around then) looking at where he as voted and when in context of some flips.

Motivation either Town or Scum will be found there for him there.

CES is much like Fate to me - he actively has cultivated a playstyle I actively despise. But he's actively consistent with it. He's not going to change just by being effectively Policy Lynched. I'm doing the best I can with what I have.

That said he'd be a solid lock for my "Somebody Vig Him" list if we have one in this game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

RE not voting snake: my vote would have put him at L-1. I didn't want to do that. There was more to discuss in this day and I don't want to end this day prematurely. We have a month deadline.

Ding ding ding … we have a scum-dar winner.

1. The ‘more to discuss’ excuse invoked. You yourself said the bulk of you post was directed at Snake and his scumminess. The assumption of this is that you think he is scum. What more do you think needs discussed if you
2. Putting someone at L-1 doesn’t end the day.
3. There is no reason to use the full month just because we have that as a deadline. Before we have flips quite frankly there is a tipping point where the discussion is filled with too much speculation. I find that once a Mini game breaches the 10 page barrier Day 1 (in non-spamfest games, anyway) that each additional page bring less and less actual useable content.

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Bah! Where were you while my vote was on rat? (rhetorical)

I know this is rhetorical but you vote on Pappums didn’t even last the full weekend when I was on V/LA.

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Snake 5: Rat, Nexus, MOI, Cogito,Surye (Lynch -2)
Surye 3: BV3,Username,Snake
Rat 2: Hoppster, ruffling
CES 1: Zang
MOI 1: Ant
BV310 1: Tarh,

I captured this vote-count for a reason. If (and this is speculation which game-play doesn’t at this point support, IMO) both Snake and Surye are Town two of the expected three scum will be found in those floating around on non-productive wagons.

That group is – Hoppster, Rufflig, Zang, Ant and Tar.

--

At this point I would be willing to lynch the following players

–

Snake – Behavior I have previously discussed with my vote. Dodging questions.
Surye – Complete lack of scum-hunting. Avoidance of thread while under pressure (he’s made 11 posts on site since his last post here and several of them are in a completed game). I find thread avoidance while being active on-site to be a fairly reliable scum-tell, doubly so when under pressure. See both CJDrum and sloth / Havingfitz in Umbrage’s recently ended Jungle Republic game as examples.
Ant – Behavior I have previously discussed.
Pappums – Lack of scum-hunting.

I’m going to move Surye back up to 4 votes with the clear indication I have no issues hammering Snake. Ant, however, is still scum despite me moving my vote.

UNVOTE: Ant
VOTE: Surye

[MagnaofIllusion]

Here's my claim. I am the Tenth Doctor (David Tennant) and I am Vanilla Town. Only me and my vote. So if you lynch me no probes you get save a PR, but alas you will miss scum. ALONSI!

Hm... I guess I was wrong in my last post, I buy it.

UNVOTE:

So you are unvoting a top scummy suspect because he claims VT?

I don't even ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

It's not the VT claim exactly. If you were town you might have some idea why I think he is telling the truth.

Oh I’m scum now am I? Because I’m voting and suspect you?

And what else is there to his claim post that convinces you? The fact that he says we wouldn’t be lynching a PR? The fact that he says he’s not scum?

Elaborate so we all can clearly understand your thought process.

[MagnaofIllusion]

If that was a fake claim, he would have had to guess a number of factors on how a town role would look, and then also be able to be counterclaimed on flavor alone. I'm not calling you scum, I'm hinting at using what you know if you are town, don't freak out like that.

1. You don't give any possibility to the fact that Mod can provide fake-claims? Noted.
2. You don't give any possibility that the Mod may have scrambled flavor in creating the Mafia? Noted.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I believe he is. The doctor is so great because he has no super powers. He can unlock doors. It's all in his intellect and charisma, the tools of a VT.

Lets get into this then … who in the Dr. Who universe would you expect to be anything BUT VT then? Certainly none of his companions are no more inherently ‘powerful’ than the Doctor. Aside from Enemies you don’t have many Superhuman participants to draw from.

Outguessing the Mod is at best bad, bad Town play.

--

It would be difficult to believe that the Doctor wouldn't be in this game. -- it is called Doctor Who after all. More specifically: Return of the Time Lords -- the flavor was pulled directly from David Tennant's last story arc as the Doctor "The End of Time, Part One". Barring a counter-claim, I believe Snake. I don't see what is so difficult about this.
FoS: Tarhalindur, MoI, Nexus, Zang
Great - just go ahead and trash a lot of my town reads. Thanks a lot.

I need to you to provide me with a list of all the Theme games you have played on MS Rufflig. Because I find that someone who joined before me having never seen the concept of Mods specifically subverting flavor material a pretty big stretch.

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For my money. Scum Team - NexusScum, Zang & MoI

Um what happened to CES scum? Was your 'large ISO' case so flimsy that it was easily supplanted?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Incorrect sir. I made an analysis based on the information I have that points to his claim being legit. He brought setup speculation into it.

No I didn’t. I just didn’t blindly jump to the conclusion that the 10th Doctor must be Town / not a fake-claim based on the evidence I have (Snake’s play in thread and my role-PM).

--

Second part is very, very bad. Outguessing the Mod is a perfectly viable tactic - hell, it's one of the main points of asking for a claim in the first place. You just have to be good at it.

I disagree in that outguessing the Mod is just as likely a road to disaster as it is a good tactic. That said this is just game-play theory so I don’t think it is worth any more discussion.

Also, thoughts on Nexus please.

I’m going to have to look at him in ISO later on today. First impressions have been that his early interactions were Town oriented, and that Snake’s early meta attack on him was bad.

1) In case you hadn't figured it out, GTFO Snake. Now.

2) Nexus is still scum, join the wagon or explain why you aren't.

1. Snake hardly has enough votes where this kind of statement is warranted.
2. Am I right in that the crux of your ‘Nexus is scum’ germinated from his Snake claim reaction?

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What is so hard about it? Ok. Just theme games? The Prisoner (mini #1099) and The Walking Dead (mini #1123). That was easy. Anything else? I've seen the concept of a mod subverting flavor material in Aqua Teen Hunger Force -- but truthfully that was a bastard mod game (and I didn't play in it).

Ok, since you have a fairly limited experience in Theme games I’m going down my list of games to show you examples of Theme games where Mods have specifically subverted flavor with Fake-claims or Roles:

Kingdom of Loathing Mafia – If you don’t know this game it is a quasi-MMO where players can select one of 6 classes in an attempt to beat the bad guys. Nik chose two of those classes (Pastamancer and Accordian Thief, undoubtedly Heroes in source flavor) as Mafia members along with more traditional ‘villians’. Additionally a number of Town roles were enemies from the game you must defeat.

Disgaea 2 Mafia – I don’t know much about the source material but my research into my role indicated that Prizm Red was a game enemy.

Supernatural Mafia – Farside made Sam Winchester, one of the Two main heroes of the series, a Mafia Traitor while being a Neighbor with Dean.

Harry Potter Mafia – Dumbledore was a fake-claim given to the Mafia to use.

Reboot Mafia – The Mafia consisted of Megabyte, Dot ( a major protagonist) and Little Enzo (also a major protagonist).

Lost Season 1 – The Mafia contained Jack (the show’s Major protagonist) and Claire (in Season 1 very innocent).

Lost Season 2 – The Mafia consisted of Mr. Eko and Locke, both of whom would be strongly considered heroes at that stage of the Series.

That’s a sampling of the kind of things I am talking about. This leaves out games where it is specifically stated that flavor is reversed (Andy’s Mini Lord of the Rings Theme or Seinfeld Mafia) or games with mixed flavor where the Mod has specifically avoided using villains (Jason’s recently ended Superhero Mafia).

TL – DR Summary

– Wiping out Snake’s scummy play because he claimed David Tennant’s 10th Doctor is Mod WIFOMing. He's obviously not going to be lynched today but I am NOT giving him a "100% Town read" just based on his claim.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Here is the thing that really bugs me, though. All of you who find Snake's claim scummy are arguing that the mod has done something sneaky by mixing up alignments of roles or given out major character fake claims. Ok, fine. But you don't know that the mod has done that. Therefore your whole case is based around an unproven assumption that quite well could be false. In fact, I don't see that there is a single claim that snake could give that you couldn't find scummy under your assumptions, therefore you can't count Snake's claim as part of your Snake is scum cases - well, not if your being honest, anyhow. The only thing Snake's claim could be is a null tell under the assumptions that you guys are presenting to us.

You aren't follow along with the thought process clearly. Let me explain in as bold terms as I can.

I don't find the claim itself scummy. I don't find it convincingly Town either.

Snake has played in a scummy manner. He's claimed a VT role, which is unproveable. I will not wipe away what I feel is his scummy play because he claimed a VT role with a 'Big Name'. He gets the same read from me he did pre-claim - scummy.

I take issue with anyone who says "Aha, a 10th Doctor VT Claim, Snake must be Town" because of the WIFOM involved (that I've painstakingly detailed). He could be just as he claimed. He could be scum who has the 10th Doctor as a fake-claim. He could be the 10th Doctor who is scum, not Town. Until I get more data than I currently possess (in the form of flips) I'm not going to play Outguess the Mod.

His role is unproveable on its own (he can't demostrate it) and thus I'm not going to let it influence my judgement on his slot. If his votes, actions and postings in the future (since he isn't getting lynched today) show me Town then I'll read him as Town for those reasons, not for his VT Doctor claim.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Your vote is not on Snake. Why are you arguing so hard that we shouldn't put any credibility in Snake's claim? It's almost like you're trying to get him lynched without actually being on his wagon.

Read back in the game to right before Snake's claim.

I've stated he was one of four players I support for lynch today.

My vote can't be on all four.

--

Still going to be looking at Nexus via ISO ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Review of Nexus’s ISO

–

His ‘RVS’ vote creates the ‘counter-wagon’ on Surye after the early votes on Zang.

Calls out Ant, Surye and Pappums for more or less ignoring the flash RVS wagon on Zang and the tiny counter on Surye. But then says it isn’t necessarily scummy behavior but stupid while keeping his vote on Surye.

Specifically states he didn’t want to put Zang at L-1 so early in the game. I don’t necessarily think there is anything wrong with that stance but it may have some application regarding Nexus’s alignement when Zang’s alignment is known.

By ISO 8 he is asking why Surye doesn’t have more votes. His only reason for keeping his initial coutner-wagon vote on Surye is that Surye ignored both early wagons. He had not provide anything else. This was at post 93. By that time Surye had 8 posts himself. I would have thought if Nexus actively found Surye scummy he would have expanded on his vote by questioning / bringing more suspect Surye actions to light.

Nexus then begins a series of ISOs where he jousts back and forth with Snake about Snake’s “Nexus is Meta-scum” that culminates in a self-admitted OMGUS and accusations that Snake is scummy for purposefully ‘not participating’ Day 1

He calls Tar’s fake-Daykill lame and continues back and forth with Snake calling him scummy in a series of 1 line posts.

In ISO 18 immediately tells Surye (incorrectly, since Surye was at L-2) that he will hammer him if he doesn’t claim. This is the post I noted where he claimed Snake wasn’t going to be lynched even though Snake was actually the leading wagon. A series of fairly content free posts about his proffered hammer follow this.

Brings up the point that Allons-y is mis-spelled in ISO 25, but then says it is irrelevant since Snake is scum.

At ISO 27 makes a pretty back analysis where he says that Vanilla claims as scum aren’t risky and that there is too high a risk of a Counterclaim. Of course this makes no sense since one of the main points of a scum fake-claiming a Power-role under pressure is to pull out a claim from Town.

--

Overall – I like Nexus’s input on the early action revolving around the Zang wagon and those who didn’t pay attention to it. His play since about ISO 8 has more or less been characterized as having no scum-hunting and being full of defensive or fluffy posts.

He hasn’t made anything of a case on Snake (other than “You are scum since you are throwing fake meta around), Surye or any of his other votes. He has more post than BV but I’m not sure that BV doesn’t have more actual scum-hunting.

UNVOTE: Surye

VOTE: Nexus

This, by my calculation should be L-1.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from today at 4pm EST (aka now) until Monday morning for my usual weekend duties.

Bv310 has solildified himself as theoretical Vigbait with his active lurking. I know funerals happen but his activity this game has been below my standards even for low performing BV.

Nexus’s VT claim pretty much solidifies we need to lynch either him or Snake today. Continually drawing VT claims helps solidify scum’s ability to hit Power Roles if both are Town or allows scum to blend in by claiming VT themselves (or perhaps already has).

--

Well, yes, but is there someone willing to hammer? Or is the wagon just going to disintegrate?

The first part of this is correct … you should only claim if someone has specifically requested you do when L-1 under threat of being hammered.

The second part makes my skin crawl - as if just sitting doing nothing will make people less suspicious of you.

--

Actually this makes me think. What if there are more than one doctors such as the newest doctor in this game then it would make more sense if the 10th doctor is scum or a fake claim. Especially, sense it was specified that he was the tenth doctor instead of just the doctor.

Aside from the slight role-fishing (which could easily be unintentional) this is a good point about Snake’s specifc claim being the 10th Doctor.

--

Holy crap is this scummy. Way to setup future opportunistic bandwagoning, and withholding reads from town.

This is a horrible, horrible attack.

1. Zang’s been forthcoming with his reads.
2. Zang’s content dwarfs yours this game.
3. When I get the chance I am going to review your voting record to see how well it slots with ‘opportunistic bandwagonning’.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Bah ... my title come true once again

Go Town!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

bv310 you should never be given a Vig role ... sigh

Town was a bit underpowered, IMO but overall gave the game away with bad play. Snake may make my Mod Blacklist for his play this game which IMO was against his role condition.

As I said in the Dead QT - Day 1 when Ant was under suspicion the back to back gambits by Snake and Tarh took all the focus to "why would you gambit" and let Ant slip into lurking mode.

Good game scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also as always thanks again Jason for the fun game. Sorry it was marred by such low activity the final day.

[MagnaofIllusion]

P-EDIT: I stand by my choice of vig, Magna. From my perspective, you were extremely hard to read, and leaving you until later meant that there was going to be at least one complete wild card. I'd happily do it again if given the opportunity, since it was far and away the right choice for me.

And I'll stand by my choice that your decision was pretty stupid. From my perspective you are busy shooting people not based on actual play but your inability to make a solid read.

A bad Town vig is more beneficial to scum than any other role. Period. Just look at Superhero Mafia and how Zinger basically submarined Town as we owned scum by scans / scum-hunting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ah! On the topic of the modkill - Jason had to do it. Jason locked the thread for a short while to confer about the role claim quoting. Anyone who had seen the locked thread and then come back to CMaR's post about warning received ... it wouldn't have taken a genius to put 2 and 2 together and figure out CMaR was now a mod confirmed townie.

Which is exactly why as a Mod you don't actually lock the thread until a final decision is reached.

Had it been decided that it didn't rise to the level of Mod-kill worthy the damage done by the premature locking would have required it anyway.

[MagnaofIllusion]

As for locking the thread, I have learnt that lesson now. sorry.

Oh I'm not criticizing because CMAR absolutley needed to be modkilled, lock or not. Just bringing up a point for future reference.

On reading his role-PM that you showed and then looking at his post it was clear, IMO, that he breached to spirit and letter of the rules.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Fair dos Zang, sorry bro. But it was a theory I thought was right.

A theory that the Page 1 post FROM THE MOD blew out of the water.