Mini 1183: Mafiamatical Mathia - Game over!

[Wickedestjr]

Mod: Unfortunately, I'm going to be V/LA this weekend. Very limited access Friday, no access Saturday, and slightly limited access Sunday.

Mod Edit:

Noted.

[Wickedestjr]

Kalofer and Oopidstay are scum.

Vote: Kalofer

[Wickedestjr]

question for all: do you find it more difficult to random vote when you are scum, or when you are town?

I've never random voted as scum and rarely do it as town. But I imagine if I was random voting as scum, then it would be more difficult.

@Juls- So, just to be clear, do you find Oopidstay suspicious at all for his selfvote?

2) I never called your self vote scummy now did I? I never said it was scummy. That's misrepping right there

Is it unreasonable for Oopidstay to have assumed that you found the self vote suspicious? If so, why?

Kalofer and Impolsion's votes look like complete overreactions and an easy ticket to go unsuspected through my wagon

Implosion was the first person to vote you.

Yeah, I'm uncomfortable with the implosion sheeping too.

Again, implosion was the first vote. How is that sheeping? Are you not paying attention?

I've played with implosionscum before. this is similar

Link, please.

[Wickedestjr]

cool

how sure are you? Any reasons?

Yes, I've got reasoning. And it's pretty strong for only 2 pages into the game. I'm not explaining, yet, though. Waiting to see what others think.

first vote or not it was still a complete overreaction to me pointing out that a self-vote isn't exactly that helpful. But I want to move on from the self-vote topic for now. I'm prepared to go along with the reaction fishing story.

My reason for mentioning he was the first to vote you was to address the 'easy ticket to go unsuspected through my wagon' comment. How did implosion and Kalofer overreact, in your opinion? And why is that suspicious? Personally, I see no overreactions.

[Wickedestjr]

@implosion- which allignment do you enjoy the most: town or scum?

[Wickedestjr]

So are you now saying you didn't vote for Oopidstay because of his selfvote? Because that's what it looks like you are saying in your last post.

Also, what do you think of Kalofer?

[Wickedestjr]

FoS: Twistedspoon

[Wickedestjr]

I dislike how you try to act like your vote for Oopidstay was both of the following:
1. An RVS vote that shouldn't have been attacked.
2. A vote that had serious reasoning behind it.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm back from V/LA. Catching up now.

[Wickedestjr]

[1: This reads as if you are going to piggyback someone elses argument.]

[2:If you have evidence, present it. I can think of no reason to keep this information to yourself.]

1:

Setting up to piggyback an argument that hadn't been made yet? How could I know that someone would attack Kalofer or Oopidstay after I did? This point doesn't make any sense and for that reason I don't know how to defend against it.

2:

I can think of several reasons:
A. Not giving my reasons means that I get to see who will actually agree with my suspicion without piggybacking my reasoning.
B. I believe that not giving any reasons increases the amount of pressure: the person that has been voted doesn't know how strongly I suspect them or why. All they do know is that I suspect them.

I.

I'm curious about this comment. According to your join date, you have been playing mafia longer than I have. I find it hard to believe that you haven't encountered reasonless suspicions from town before.

Wait, I thought Kaloofer and Oopid were scum? Surely you don't think its 3 scum in a 9 player game?

unvote, vote wicked

Somethings not jiving here....

I don't think there are three scum in this game (my guess would be that there are two), but I also never said Twistedspoon was scum. In addition, there's no way I could know for certain that Kalofer and Oopidstay are scum at this stage, so of course I could be wrong. Just because I say I believe two players are scum doesn't mean I can't find another player's actions strange.

II.

I think this is a really weak point.

Also, good posting by plague.

III.

This seems like a strange comment to make coming from you. I'm not saying I disagree with the comment, but considering you had

just

been voting implosion for buddying, this seems a bit hypocritical. Especially since you seem to disagree with him on a few reads.

IV.

Now that Juls has answered my question directed at her, I think that her previous vote for Oopidstay seems a bit suspicious. Voting somebody because they self voted isn't suspicious alone, but considering that she kept her vote on him even after she acknowledged that he hadn't encountered any self votes in his previous games, I find it a bit strange.

FoS: Juls

for

I, II, III,

&

IV

.

More later.

[Wickedestjr]

@Wicked: I don't like how you say Kalofer and Oopid are scum, never folow it up, debate/talk with Twisted where you DON'T think he's scum (point being you don't ask Kalofer/Oopid a single question) (FoS doesn't count, since you already stated who you think are scum and are voting for them which says you are convinced)

I didn't follow up the Kalofer and Oopidstay suspicions because I was waiting to see how people reacted (this is also the reason for me not asking them any questions), and then I was V/LA.

Strikes me as a way to try and not look like you are focusing on Twisted completely

Why would I want to do that as scum?

Now I'm going to explain my Kalofer and Oopidstay suspicions.

[Wickedestjr]

Kalofer:

Firstly, on page 1 when everybody was talking about Oopidstay's selfvote, Kalofer, rather than comment on the selfvote, made two jokey posts which both completely ignored the serious discussion. It wasn't until after nearly everyone had commented on it (and it was clear what most of the town was thinking) that he actually started posting seriously.

Secondly, his first serious post wasn't that fantastic either. He votes Twistedspoon but

completely

piggybacks Oopidstay's reasoning. He doesn't even state the reasons and his only justification for the vote is that Oopidstay has a good enough reason to vote for TS. It looks like a bandwagon vote from scum. He also accuses Morthas of sitting back and not doing anything when Kalofer, himself, isn't any better. Finally, his stance on Oopidstay isn't very clear. In the same post he says that it is most likely that Oopidstay was a townie gauging reactions

and

that the selfvote was WIFOM. Which is it?

That was all that I had noticed at the time I called him scum, but he's continued acting suspiciously since then. Post 81 looks like he's giving himself room to backpedal and change his stance on TS when he needs to later. The last thing I noticed was that he originally ignored my reasonless suspicions, which is suspicious on its own because it lacks the interest that a townie would have in discerning my allignment. However, my main issue is how he

does

indicate that he is suspicious of me for the reasonless suspicions once another player (Juls) had done so.

Oopidstay:

I suspect him mostly because I don't believe that he actually selfvoted to generate reactions that he could work with. It looks like he might have stolen the reason from implosion and his posting in the first 1.5 pages didn't look like it had serious motivation behind it. Finally, he eventually expressed suspicion of Twistedspoon despite not showing any concern for his vote originally.


To be honest, I'm starting to doubt that Kalofer and Oopidstay are scumbuddies after rereading the thread, but I think they are both suspicious individually.

I have to go now.

[Wickedestjr]

Mod: I'm going to have very limited access both today and tomorrow.

I'm really sorry, but I have a lot of work to do this weekend.

Mod-Edit:

Noted, thanks for letting me know.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm back. I was extremely busy over the weekend and wasn't expecting yesterday to be as busy. Catching up now.

[Wickedestjr]

Sorry... I got distracted with something else after I finished catching up (and the catchup took me a while since I was 4/5 pages behind.

The case against me seems to boil down to:

• Not explaining my scumreads of Kalofer and Oopidstay.
  
• Explaining my FoS of Twistedspoon despite not explaining my, stronger, other suspicions.
  
• My case against Juls which looks like OMGUS.

I believe I already said why I didn't explain those suspicions. But if you weren't satisfied with my explanation, then I can elaborate if you want.

I explained my FoS of Twistedspoon because I felt that my reasoning was obvious. Just look at the questions that I had been asking him prior to the FoS. Also, he had a serious bandwagon at the time, so even if the reasoning wasn't obvious, I had a lot less motivation to withhold it: it would have had hardly any effect on the way scum reacted since there was already suspicion towards TS and they may have already taken a stance on him prior to my FoS.

The points against Juls weren't OMGUS. I think the case against me seems unusually weak to be coming from town. Having said that, this point against Juls is kind of weak now considering there are

several

players that seem to agree (and they can't all be scum).


If you guys really think there's a case against me, then I guess I'm not completely opposed to being lynched. I

have

been lacking activity-wise (and I'm expecting to be V/LA again in the future, but that is a problem that can be easily solved without lynching). And lynching me also means that we get to see at least two more awesome lynch scenes!

Having said that, I would at least like time to post my thoughts before I'm lynched (if my defense hasn't convinced you all). We have plenty of time left and I'd like to use some of that time to help the town. Besides: if I'm actually scum it won't matter how much time you give me to post my thoughts, because the game will be over from lynching me anyway. And if I'm town, which I am, you will be able to look at my reads with the knowledge that I was town in the future.

[Wickedestjr]

It's late where I'm at and I'm about to go to sleep. That's why I haven't given my thoughts yet. DJ, what harm does giving me some time to post my thoughts do? I correctly nailed Kalofer as scum so who says I can't figure out who his scumbuddy was? Also, even if I

was

scum, lynching me a day or two later changes nothing. The game would probably end either way. But if I'm town, giving me a chance to contribute before I die strongly benefits town.

DJ is there something wrong with my defense?

I honestly think that the case against me is complete BS. I didn't explain my scumreads at first. So what? Big freaking deal. That's not suspicious and I've explained the pro-town motivation.

[Wickedestjr]

Also someone may have already pointed this out, but we have two confirmed townies, I think.

[Wickedestjr]

Thoughts coming up very soon...

[Wickedestjr]

Here are my thoughts... Remaining players (aside from myself) listed in order from most townish to most suspicious.

Juls

I think hammering Kalofer was a town move. Yes, she

could

have been bussing, but I have my doubts. If she was

really

scum interested in bussing/killing her scumbuddy, then post 106 doesn't make any sense also coming from her. She could have made post 106 and then later changed her mind and realized bussing was the optimal strategy, but her aggressive strategy has shown to be consistent. Despite being a terrible scumhunter, I have reason to believe she's actually trying (but I have no reason to explain why atm).

Read:

Town

implosion

He's another player that I thought was town yesterday. I actually got pretty strong town vibes from him, but that was

also

pretty much gut based. I

do

think that getting himself into that argument with Juls early on is something that might not have happened if he was scum. His play yesterday also seems a lot different from his play in Frogs Mafia 2 where he was scum (however, tbh, I haven't given a thorough read of any of his town games). In addition, the PoE he was using today looked townish as well. My only issue is how he

also

seems to have flown under the radar today.

Read:

Neutral/Town

Oopidstay

I called Kalofer and Oopidstay scum yesterday, but, at the time, I hadn't been considering or looking for connections. Looking at Kalofer's posts from yesterday, I'm actually starting to doubt Oopidstay is his scumbuddy.

Specifically, this was the post I looked at:

okkkkk...After that exchange I'm leaning town on oopid and juls. It looks most likely to me that Oopid is a townie gauging reactions through what is deemed as obviscum behaviour, juls is a townie responding as expected to that behaviour.
The whole subject you're debating about is WIFOM but I'm leaning towards the WIFOM that says oopid is town because I also don't think scum would bother attracting attention to themselves. Implosion I have as null/town because I again doubt that scum would rush to defend someone whether they be town or scum so soon after RVS.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Twistedspoon

I think oopid has a good enough reason to vote for you.

And what you later said about you bringing us out of RVS better be sarcasm.
Also FoS: Morthas, nice job pointing out to TS that we're out of RVS, now how about you actually do something instead of just sitting back? Also, is it me or do your avatars get worse and worse as you change them?

@Don, I don't think it would make a difference, being a random vote but I guess I can't really say so since I've only played town so far.

I have a lot of trouble seeing Kalofer blatantly follow their scumbuddy like this (see the bolded portion of the post). In addition,
Kalofer's reasons for thinking Oopidstay are town seem truthful. I also have trouble seeing Oopidstay's vote for DJ coming from scum. My only issue with him is how he seems to have flown under the radar today.

Read:

Neutral/Town

don_johnson

He was one of my top suspects at the beginning of the day, but his posting today for the most part has looked townish. His scumhunting looks genuine for the same reason why Juls scumhunting looks genuine to me. The only thing that bothers/annoys me at this point is how he is in such a rush to lynch me without letting me post my thoughts. I also don't like how he has ignored my questions.

Read:

Neutral/Town

Morthas

I remember thinking Morthas looked like town yesterday, but that was mostly a gut read. In addition, I think it's more likely that one of the neighbors in this game would be town rather than two scum. I've never seen a game with two scum neighbors from the same group. However, this point is weak if it

is

actually a possibility. Having said that, Morthas's summary of the QT discussion doesn't look fake.

Read:

Neutral/Town

theplague42

On day 1, he expressed suspicion of Twistedspoon and had his vote on him until day 1 ended. However, once the day began today, theplague42 has made no mention of Twistedspoon being scum. Why is that, theplague42? Also, two of his votes today have looked very opportunistic. His vote for Morthas was the L-1 vote and his vote for me two days ago put me at L-2. Having said that, the don_johnson vote looks townish. Not because of the target, but because theplaguescum had no reason to jump off that bandwagon and vote somebody else that had no other votes at the time.

Read:

Neutral/Scum

Twistedspoon

The first suspicious thing I noticed from Twistedspoon I explained in post 75. To summarize that post, I didn't like Twistedspoon's defense of his Oopidstay vote. Then, later today, I noticed an interesting inconsistency. He voted Juls in post 151 (or at least intended to, but corrected his mistake in the following post), but then later makes this post:

so don is either the bravest, boldest scum in the world for trying to lynch an 'obvtownie' or he finds a legitimate reason to be suspicious of Juls.
I believe the former

If don was scum I can't see him taking such a gamble by trying to start a Juls wagon. He was in Jul's good books too.
Don is town and suspects Juls. Simples

whether you agree with his suspicions of Juls or not is irrelevant. Suspecting Juls, the most ruthless (and obvtown according to oopid) player in this game would be a suicidal thing for scum to do.

in which he acts as though Juls is an obvtownie and voting her would be a brave move. Why, then, did Twistedspoon vote for Juls? Furthermore, I find it very strange how Twistedspoon voted Juls, unvoted, then voted the person Juls was voting as a result of her persuasion. It looks like he

knows

Juls is town.

Read:

Scum

So I'm going to

Vote: Twistedspoon

.

[Wickedestjr]

I refuse to claim until somebody explains how my defense is invalid. Saying you're not convinced without explaining why is just stupid. The case was crap to begin with: it revolves around me not explaining my scumreads. <-- That's not scummy... It's just an attempt to see how people react and see what people think about the reads without piggybacking my reasoning. I honestly feel like I'm playing in Road to Rome right now and I wanted to play in a Mini Normal. Either that, or you guys are just too stubborn to realize that the points are meaningless.

[Wickedestjr]

His interaction with kalofer is what makes me think he's more likely town right now.

What, specifically, in their interaction makes you think their not scumbuddies? Note that Twistedspoon didn't express any suspicion of Kalofer until after a bandwagon formed. It could have easily been bussing.

[Wickedestjr]

I could easily see that as bussing, too.

This post, for example, makes a lot of sense if wicked is town, and stuck out to me. The question makes sense directed to me - at least, I see it as an attempt to discern my play here as either similar to or different from my frogs 2 play, and whether that difference is indicative of me being town.

Correct. And your answer is one reason why I'm leaning towards believing this is your town meta. You'll notice that I made a mention of your meta in my thoughts post.

[Wickedestjr]

it doesn't change the fact that you didn't give reasons.

Is this suspicious, though?

also, my understanding of the case against you was that juls pointed out that your play read like an early bus gone wrong.

I have yet to see anyone explain why.

oh wait, those were the only two.

lynch this scum please.

Where did I say that?

[Wickedestjr]

Why?

Where?

I am paying attention. Why'd you quote me saying something I didn't say?

[Wickedestjr]

Seriously?

Where? (links?)

I hardly see what is so funny about that. I asked you two questions. You ignored those questions. I said I didn't like how you were ignoring my questions. What is the problem?

[Wickedestjr]

I forgot to explain how there are two confirmed townies. Actually, come to think of it, there is only one confirmed townie, but there is another player who is very likely town.

The role that prevented the nightkill was either a protective role or a roleblocking role. If somebody is a pro-town roleblocking role, then that means they probably roleblocked the last scum (and it might be a good idea for them to claim in this case). If it was a protective role that prevented the nightkill then the person they protected is confirmed town, because if the player that claims to be the protective role is scum, then that means everybody else, including the protected player, is town. But if the protective role is town, then they are telling the truth that the person they protected is town. The protective role in this case is the very likely townie. Either that or they are scum who deliberately didn't kill so they could try to confirm theirself as town.

[Wickedestjr]

Also, ftr, I'm really quite frustrated with the game right now and not really enjoying it. I've been attacked before and that's no big deal. But when I try to defend myself and my defense isn't even considered, it's no fun. I'm trying to play to my win condition and get a scum lynched instead. I'm trying to defend myself. I'm trying to get you all to consider other options. But I get these kind of responses:

Not convinced. Can't help but notice a lack of claim in those posts. Good with anyone who wants to hammer.

Why [is not explaining my reads suspicious]?

Because it is.

Both of these responses argue that I'm wrong, but neither explain why. So what am I supposed to do? Should I just giveup and let you lynch me?

The case against me was originally because I didn't explain my two scumreads. I explained why I did this. Trying to see who agrees with my reads and why without giving out the answers immediately. Trying to see how the suspected players react. Trying to see how other players react. All pro-town motivations. Nothing that harms the town. And I

did

explain those scumreads and I

did

give my own reasoning. Has nobody here ever played with Thesp? He does this a lot as town and he's earned a scummy for his scumhunting ability. It's a good strategy.

Now don_johnson has said that my vote looked like an early bussing attempt gone wrong. He hasn't explained why, but he

has

insisted that Juls has explained why. But no. Juls hasn't explained this and nobody has. This was the post where Juls said my vote looked like bussing:

1) I am not scum
2) I didn't like his delay
3) I meant what I said, that information is gleaned from Night 1 and I am very happy we got scum regardless of how scummy it made me look. I knew it would come off scummy but I didn't really care because there was too much "I'll post soon" going on in this thread and it needed to be shaken up.
4) I still like Wicked and/or TS for scum. Vote: Wicked

Wicked was also first on the Kalofer wagon which may have caught him in a bus situation gone awry by my early hammer.

5) I like implosion alot more for his reaction to my hammer. He was first to ask why I didn't get a claim. The way I saw it, if Kalofer was a power role he would have been more interested in saving his neck and would have claimed in his "just a sec" post instead of saying "just as sec".

I agree the neighbor should claim if there is one.

Mod: Can you verify that a Neighbor is different than a Neighborizer to you. If he was a neighborizer there is no neighbor, if he was a neighbor then there is a town neighbor out there somewhere.

No explanation given here. How am I supposed to defend? Or should I just giveup?

It's not looking like I'll be able to save myself today due to some very stubborn townies (hint: Juls and DJ), but if and when I'm lynched the game

will

continue. And all that I ask is that you please don't continue playing this way. Creating a case on someone and then ignoring their defense. Trying to lynch somebody in five RL days. Voting players without completely explaining why. None of these are helpful strategies. Playing this way is both going to make the game no fun and it's probably going to lose the game for town.

[Wickedestjr]

way to mis rep

I was using their own logic, not mine when I called Juls obvtownie at that point. Back then I did not find Juls obvtownie myself.
But i was using their logic of Juls being regarded as obvtownie, not my own

Point retracted.

and yes, Juls did persuade me

I still find it strange that you would unvote Juls, somebody you suspected, and switch your vote to the person Juls was voting. Especially considering you apparently think I'm town. Do you still suspect Juls?

[Wickedestjr]

I'm trying to play to my win condition and get a scum lynched instead.

contradiction

I'm not completely opposed to being lynched. I

have

been lacking activity-wise (and I'm expecting to be V/LA again in the future, but that is a problem that can be easily solved without lynching). And lynching me also means that we get to see at least two more awesome lynch scenes!

w/e

While I did like the lynch scene, I would never seriously value seeing it over my survival. And planning to be V/LA in the future is a pro to lynching me, so I pointed it out, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try and prevent my lynch and defend myself.

plague is my favourite lynch

his entrance onto my wagon and

wicked's looked so much like he was trying to ride on the easiest.

Plague was also suspiciously absent from the Kalofer wagon too

If wicked flips town

(which I think he will)

then I'll know that plague was on the 2 easy townie wagons and not only the only scum wagon

I feel plague is scum.

If you think I'm town and think my bandwagon is an easy one, then why in the world were you voting me? I don't like it.

[Wickedestjr]

VT

Thanks Juls for explaining your case. Really appreciate it.

Lynch Twistedspoon tomorrow. He said he thought I was town, but now he's saying I'm null. Just look:

If wicked flips town

(which I think he will)

then I'll know that plague was on the 2 easy townie wagons and not only the only scum wagon

plague is the last mafioso. I have good confidence in that. Everyone else apart from

wicked (null?)

is a town read. I shall get him tommorow

Also, does it bother nobody that he's voting somebody he doesn't suspect? (simply because the rest of the town wants me lynched)

If it's not him, plague's another good option for thinking I was town yesterday, but believing I am scum after the attention shifted towards me.

Also, Juls, yes, you are terrible. If you really had a case compelling enough to lynch me, there's no reason why you wouldn't elaborate when asked or explain why my defense is wrong. It's extremely ignorant and anti-town: you are making the game no fun and creating an atmosphere where players are allowed to vote/piggyback without giving reasoning. And I don't see how you and DJ going at each other every game is relevant to me calling you both stubborn.

I don't expect to survive, but if I do, I'm going to be V/LA Saturday and some/most of Sunday.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP: I don't see why everyone's blindly following the player that not only thought Kaloferscum was town, but hammered him anyway despite believing so. It makes no sense. And nobody has even justified their position on this bandwagon. It's a complete waste of a lynch.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP (again): forgot to mention that the only thing that changed between TS's town read and null read of me is that I attacked him. Just thought I'd point that out.

[Wickedestjr]

Case:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3122722

It is not my job to

read the thread

for you wicked.

I read that post and defended against all the main points. You never responded which shows that you can't explain what's wrong with my defense.

[Wickedestjr]

Bah. Avocado, you rock.

Mod-Edit:

Hoppster approves of this Bah post.

[Wickedestjr]

gg town. Thanks Hoppster. And no replacements!