Mini 1176: Dexter Season 2 (Game Over) Who Won?

[VP Baltar]

VP: but you don't consider either of them particularly strong scum reads?

Strong is a relative term. Out of everyone else in the game so far, those are my strongest scum reads. Not sure what the point of this question is though. Can you elaborate?

[Locke Lamora]

I wanted to know if you were firmly behind the Budja lynch or not, and whether you considered him a top suspect. I read a hint of you downplaying your suspicions as a defence to Sotty's criticism despite your vote being on a wagon at L-1, which pinged my scumdar slightly. As you're not making an attempt to distance yourself from the wagon in any way, I don't think it's scummy.

[VP Baltar]

No, I would definitely lynch Budja.

[tanstalas]

@farside - Please give me your definition of tunneling . Thanks

Focusing on one player more then any other player for most of the day. What's yours?

I would agree. Thanks for answering.

Would you agree in Draft Mafia: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go that you started the day tunneling on Llama? You were scum that game.

In Near Vanilla you were town, but I did not notice you tunneling on anyone that much http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

I just grabbed 2 of your most recent games that were over, and just read your posts in ISO, so this is taken out of context. Am I saying that whenever you tunnel on someone you are scum? And when you don't tunnel you are town? No, I am not. I am saying you tunneling on someone is a null tell. HOWEVER you saying you always tunnel on the scummiest is obviously a lie, and hence is scummy.

If Budja wasn't more scummy, I'd switch my vote to you now. Seriously, trying to lynch a claimed survivor? lol

[Budja]

I've been a survivor before, I've claimed survivor before and was lynched for it.
Thats when I understood that despite their motivations, a known claimed survivor, who will not be nightkilled, can be used as an extra scum member as far as numbers go.
If Kise can change his alignment to town, that would change things, although I do want to know what motivation he would have for doing so.

@Sotty, I didn't care about a name claim, I meant a role claim. Before I was interesting to know why he was sharing the information without compromising any role info that should stay secret. After the claim, as a survivor, I wanted to know everything.

[Budja]

EDWOP: I guess a vig shot would be a bit better than a lynch.

[Kise]

L-1 and no claim? @Sotty: that's cruel. I'm not sure what really comes with targeting rita or dexter, as that may also lead to a masonry/buddy system. Do you not want me to stay around and offer my opinion at least? Surely there's lie detectors, trackers, roleblockers, rolecops, COPS, etc. What, I should also lose with town if we don't lynch scum?

[Amrun]

How is a survivor scum?

[farside22]

@farside - Please give me your definition of tunneling . Thanks

Focusing on one player more then any other player for most of the day. What's yours?

I would agree. Thanks for answering.

Would you agree in Draft Mafia: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go that you started the day tunneling on Llama? You were scum that game.

In Near Vanilla you were town, but I did not notice you tunneling on anyone that much http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

I just grabbed 2 of your most recent games that were over, and just read your posts in ISO, so this is taken out of context. Am I saying that whenever you tunnel on someone you are scum? And when you don't tunnel you are town? No, I am not. I am saying you tunneling on someone is a null tell. HOWEVER you saying you always tunnel on the scummiest is obviously a lie, and hence is scummy.

If Budja wasn't more scummy, I'd switch my vote to you now. Seriously, trying to lynch a claimed survivor? lol

Your saying my day one post against Nacho in Vanilla you would not call tunneling. I would like you to explain why now.
I also said I have a tendency to tunnel, If your going to quote at least give the correct quote I stated. It's a null tell. It means I tend to do it no matter my alignment so focusing on it gives nothing. I don't do it every game, but I notice myself doing it in games.

[farside22]

I've played with LMP a few times and I've never seen him so sheepy. He's buddying up to me and that tends to be a weak spot of mine. I would really like to see more content from him. I have him null leaning scum right now.

Agreed

Well how you jumped from Socio to LMP in particular. It felt like you were trying to find a footing somewhere. What do you think of Socio now?

Isn't the survivor wincon directly detrimental to a town win? It's one less townie to kill right? We can probably do better for a day one lynch true, but Kise is an excellent vig shot unless he is a finder, who's wincon changes later in the game.

I thought he claimed survivor? I had a survivor role once and won with the town, fulfilled the win con in the game. It's not a role I'm that familiar with to be honest though.


Hey Locke: Who do you see scum with Budja and why. Follow up who else do you have a scum read on and why?

If Budja wasn't more scummy, I'd switch my vote to you now. Seriously, trying to lynch a claimed survivor? lol

What post did you see me trying to lynch Kise?

[Hinduragi]

Farside isn't trying to lynch Kise.

I want to hear the main points against Budja minus the Kise thing since Socio is also voting Kise. I understand they're in the thread but I'm largely ignoring them because I have a gut town read on him.

Tans, what do you think of Kise?

He is unique in that he cites and pulls references from the only game he has played with me.
In that game, (DEFCON 1.0). we were scum together.
He also vigged me (NUKE'd).
And then flaked, and was replaced by FATE.

Discrediting the wagon? Nice, Socio. We both know why I vigged you: to win the game. I flaked site-wide around that time for personal reasons. It was a one-time thing. If you didn't notice, Fate also mentioned how I had the perfect bussing.

But combining Hindu's join date, plus his limited exposure of me, makes his stance seem the most clouded of all on my wagon.
Mostly because I have less faith in his ability to play as compared to others on my wagon.

More discrediting. Really nice.

In fact, your whole 261 is a giant discreditation.

Your "these wagons are silly" and then hopping onto one and hitting it up to L-1 with little to no reason(which was later proved to be non-existent reasoning) was insanely scummy. You've still failed to address that.

In terms of what I think of socio now, I'd say leaning town, but it's not a strong read by any means. He's participating and answering to his wagon well, imo.

What part of 261 do you consider responding well? His entire response pertaining to me was ad-hom.

[Budja]

L-1 and no claim?

No. Are you intending to vote me?

@Hind, you do realise mine and Socio's votes for Kise are for different reasons.

What, I should also lose with town if we don't lynch scum?

This is the survivor attitude.

unvote

, no-one is interested in the policy lynch but I do highly recommend a vigging.

@farside, that's me he is talking about.
@tans, what's wrong with wanting to lynch a claimed survivor?
How does a weak meta thing on farside push her up to #2 for you?

[Hinduragi]

Yeah, I noticed and I think Socio comes out as scummier. Your heart's in the right place and that's all I needed to know about it. You just didn't think the Kise vote through enough. Socio said his voting reasoning was weak, and, to a lesser degree, he didn't want a survivor. He didn't wait for the details or continue asking questions about the claim like you did. You came out on top easily.

[tanstalas]

Your saying my day one post against Nacho in Vanilla you would not call tunneling. I would like you to explain why now.
I also said I have a tendency to tunnel, If your going to quote at least give the correct quote I stated. It's a null tell. It means I tend to do it no matter my alignment so focusing on it gives nothing. I don't do it every game, but I notice myself doing it in games.

Because you weren't? You asked Nacho one question on the first 10 posts of that game. You asked AntB more questions than the one you asked him.

Again, I said tunneling in itself is not scummy, however when brought up that your tunneling on me this game by Sotty was raising her heckles you said you always tunnel on the person you find scummiest - hence implying you are town. Instead of saying that you always tunnel regardless of your alignment you had to make a special note to tell us that you do it on the scummiest person. Which is obviously not true, since you tunnel when you are scum as well.

[tanstalas]

As far as the kise thing. I am game with leaving him alone today.

There is nothing wrong with lynching a survivor, but not on D1, I'd rather lynch who I think is scum. Also lynching kise atm would give us nothing regardless if he did flip survivor, scum, town IMO.

[SocioPath]

He is unique in that he cites and pulls references from the only game he has played with me.
In that game, (DEFCON 1.0). we were scum together.
He also vigged me (NUKE'd).
And then flaked, and was replaced by FATE.

Discrediting the wagon? Nice, Socio. We both know why I vigged you: to win the game. I flaked site-wide around that time for personal reasons. It was a one-time thing. If you didn't notice, Fate also mentioned how I had the perfect bussing.

Heh.
It amuses me that you see it as an attempt at discreditation.

Your "these wagons are silly" and then hopping onto one and hitting it up to L-1 with little to no reason(which was later proved to be non-existent reasoning) was insanely scummy. You've still failed to address that.

Heh.

Tans, on the other hand, seems to be attacking everyone who attempts to hop on his wagon.

I took a look through his iso on town games and couldn't find this behavior in any of them

I become defensive in all my games, and tend to focus on the people who attack me, if I am town or scum.

Which games did you look at where I didn't attack people who hopped on my wagon?

Actually. That's enough for a vote. As you are obviously lying. I always attack people who hop on my wagon.

Unvote
Vote: Hinduragi

This is not a post town makes.

His response to my response is key as well.
As will be his response to this response of the response.

[Sotty7]

@Sotty, I didn't care about a name claim, I meant a role claim. Before I was interesting to know why he was sharing the information without compromising any role info that should stay secret. After the claim, as a survivor, I wanted to know everything.

But that's not what happened. When you said Kise doesn't need to claim in post 257 he had already claimed survivor in post 245 after I outright asked him. Kise then revealed a little more info and then you demanded a claim.

L-1 and no claim? @Sotty: that's cruel. I'm not sure what really comes with targeting rita or dexter, as that may also lead to a masonry/buddy system. Do you not want me to stay around and offer my opinion at least? Surely there's lie detectors, trackers, roleblockers, rolecops, COPS, etc. What, I should also lose with town if we don't lynch scum?

Sure you can stay around for a little while, but you should die before end game.

Farside once again you come in and don't actually comment on the hot topic of the moment. Opinion on Kise's surivior claim? Opinions on budja's reaction to it? Or even anyone's reaction?

Unvote, Vote: Farside

Maybe this will help you get more involved.

[Locke Lamora]

Farside: I've not put much thought into connections at this stage. I'm still leaning scum on KKN because something just felt a little bit disingenuous about that tanstalas situation. If Budja was to flip scum then I'd be looking at Sotty and Hinduragi for sure.

Hinduragi: I think it was pretty clearly summarised at the end of the last page.

[Amrun]

Is no one else besides DDD seeing a farside/Budja connection?

I see a tanstalas/farside connection in another way.

If tanstalas is scum, farside is almost definitely town.

If Budja is scum, farside gets major scumpoints (but it isn't a sure thing).

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Is no one else besides DDD seeing a farside/Budja connection?

Connections are pretty useless until you have flips. It can be handy to point them out to make sure other people see them but they should hardly be a focus until you know the assumption the connection is based on proves true.

[Amrun]

Well, I'm hardly focusing on it, am I? It was a topic of discussion so I thought I'd say what I thought.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Well, I'm hardly focusing on it, am I? It was a topic of discussion so I thought I'd say what I thought.

And I was just explaining why it's perfectly reasonable for no one to have responded to my opinion on the matter.

~~

On the survivor topic, if Kise is indeed a true survivor that means he can win with the scum team and thus if he makes MYLO/LYLO he is likely to vote with scum to achieve his win con. Thus while he doesn't hurt us terribly now we need to keep a close eye on him and if indeed his win con can be changed to town-aligned that would be something we'd have a vested interest in.

[Amrun]

So, I've been thinking on this survivor issue. This very much is outguessing the mod. Take it or leave it, but if you don't like it, just disagree or don't comment on it. It's nothing to get anyone's panties in a bunch over.

I think Dexter is scum this game, probably with Lyla. I don't know who else would be scum with them to make up the traditional 3-man. 3-man isn't necessary, though.

In season 2, for those who didn't know, Dexter is both the protagonist and antagonist. He works at the polic dept, but the police dept is searching for a particular serial killer: him. It's a big investigation with fbi and everything.

Astor being a survivor and knowing Dexter and Rita are in this game adds validity to this theory. Astor is Rita's child; Rita is Dexter's girlfriend. There is tension between Dexter and Astor, but Dexter would never kill her.

My guess is Astor (Kise) seeks out a player each night, and it depends on if he finds Dexter or Rita first if he becomes scum or town. Astor would work against scum (Dexter) if she was allied with Rita, and against town (with Dexter) if she found Dexter first.

Another possibility is that Astor doesn't become scum unless Rita dies and/or doesn't become town unless Dexter dies.

Thoughts?

[VP Baltar]

Rather than outguess anything, I just suggest Kise either full claims all his knowledge and aligns with the town or he gets shot in the face and loses. Pretty simple ultimatum that only gives him one choice if he wants a shot at winning the game. Right now, I put his chances of a 3rd party survivor victory at less than zero.

[tanstalas]

Rather than outguess anything, I just suggest Kise either full claims all his knowledge and aligns with the town or he gets shot in the face and loses. Pretty simple ultimatum that only gives him one choice if he wants a shot at winning the game. Right now, I put his chances of a 3rd party survivor victory at less than zero.

:Goodposting: