Mini 1166: Town Hall Mafia (GAME OVER)

[iamausername]

VOTE: Fishythefish

Rhinox is town because C-Worl died and not me.
sAb is town for reasons I mentioned yesterday, and those mentioned by Emp today.
Emp is town for mentioning them.
I don't think I need to explain why ThAd is town.

So, Fishy.

[EmpTyger]

iama:
I don't follow the point about Rhinox, or are you just being devious?

In any case, it's no one besides Fishy or Rhinox, and we have at least 2 kills available, so, sure.

Unvote Rhinox, vote Fishythefish

[iamausername]

iama:
I don't follow the point about Rhinox, or are you just being devious?

I managed to get kuz/Archaist lynched yesterday almost single handedly by browbeating enough townies to go along with me, and I listed Rhinox as the most likely partner. By contrast, one of the last things C-Worl said was "Rhinox is town".

I am obvtown after yesterday, so killing me would not implicate Rhinox in any way. I have demonstrated a stubborn refusal to let go of my top suspect, and the ability to get them lynched. Rhinox would have every reason to believe that a) I would come into this day after his blood, and b) I have the power to exert my will upon this town. No way he kills anyone but me.

[Beefster]

Votecount 2.2

Fishythefish (2) - EmpTyger, iamausername

EmpTyger (1) - ThAdmiral

Not Voting

- Fishy, sAb, Rhinox

With 6 players alive, it takes

4

to lynch.

[Fishythefish]

iam is very likely town for going after Archaist so hard - very few scumbags bus their only partner to that extent. Even Rhinox is fairly unlikely for that reason - with the wagons tied at 3-3 there's no reason scumRhinox had to jump to Archaist, and doing so made his partner rather likely to die (because someone is going to hammer an L-1 wagon out of principle). C-Worl kill is also pretty solid logic. ThAd gets some points from attacking Arch, and many many more for being the main counterwagon - he's town.

That leaves sAb and Emp. I thought Emp was pretty scummy yesterday in relation to kuz/Arch's wagon - he pushed the wagon pretty hard without ever getting on it. Unless I read that really wrong, it's not likely scum-scum; really felt like Emp was up for that lynch. For scumEmp, just doesn't do the job of either distancing or helping his partner. Although if Emp is town, I'm very surprised he wasn't on the Arch wagon by the end of the day, given his previous behaviour.

sAb has pretty much zero interaction with Arch, which is surprising given the starring role Arch played in day 1. I agree that 254 would be an odd post for a buddy. Although I feel my 255 would be, as well.

So, the only major fault in iama's PoE is that it's wrong. Pretty sure the scum is sAb or Emp, but right now I don't know which. I'll read some more and cast a vote soon.

[sAbLLimINal]

I am obvtown after yesterday, so killing me would not implicate Rhinox in any way. I have demonstrated a stubborn refusal to let go of my top suspect, and the ability to get them lynched. Rhinox would have every reason to believe that a) I would come into this day after his blood, and b) I have the power to exert my will upon this town. No way he kills anyone but me.

This is creating WIFOM if you're trying to explain why you weren't killed.

I don't think I need to explain why ThAd is town.

Actually could you explain it to me?


My initial thoughts right now are leaning towards fishy. I noticed that when kuz/Arch was gathering votes, fishy tried to both defend and distance himself. He stated that there was one thing kuz did that was scummy, which was jumping on a townread. His defense was that people were seeing flaking as a scumtell, which he claimed that and being defensive was not a scumtell. I don't remember people explaining that there vote on kuz was because he was flaking, except for emp's ultimatum way back in post 111.

[Fishythefish]

I am obvtown after yesterday, so killing me would not implicate Rhinox in any way. I have demonstrated a stubborn refusal to let go of my top suspect, and the ability to get them lynched. Rhinox would have every reason to believe that a) I would come into this day after his blood, and b) I have the power to exert my will upon this town. No way he kills anyone but me.

This is creating WIFOM if you're trying to explain why you weren't killed.

*Bangs his head against the wall*

I don't think I need to explain why ThAd is town.

Actually could you explain it to me?


My initial thoughts right now are leaning towards fishy. I noticed that when kuz/Arch was gathering votes, fishy tried to both defend and distance himself. He stated that there was one thing kuz did that was scummy, which was jumping on a townread. His defense was that people were seeing flaking as a scumtell, which he claimed that and being defensive was not a scumtell. I don't remember people explaining that there vote on kuz was because he was flaking, except for emp's ultimatum way back in post 111.

Meh - I disagreed with some points of kuz/Arch and agreed with others. Put on the right goggles, and that becomes defending/distancing from him. Have you got any more reason than that to think it was defending/distancing rather than my honest opinion?

On the "defence" part - I don't think either of those things were scumtells, and couldn't find another point against kuz. As for people not voting kuz because he was flaking, I refer you to the thread. In particular, posts 86, 96, 97, 98, 111, 124. Mostly ThAd, but iam Q's him for T, and C-Worl gives qualified agreement.

How would

you

summarise the case against kuz at this point (169)? I think "undermining a townread, being overdefensive, flaking" covers it very nicely. I agreed with one of the three (plus disliked Arch's last post), and so I said so.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd:
If sAb's mafia trying to be thought town: he hammers Archaist himself. 
If sAb's mafia trying to save his comafia: he keeps quiet or plays along with Rhinox for a few hours until the no-lynch hits.
sAb's [254] only makes sense if he's town.  It doesn't provide any advantage to him if he's mafia.  It only alerts the town to the fact that Rhinox didn't really lynch Archaist, which enables someone else to lynch Archaist.  Which is the absolute last thing the mafia would want at that point.

While I think it is somewhat dangerous to say definitively what scum would or would not do, this is logical stuff. Sab is off my scumlist.

I actually didn't notice rhinox's "That should be hammer" until now and that is pretty terribad.

Why is it bad?

Um, because it was so close to deadline, and if other people believed you there may not have been a lynch.

hmmm... good point I didn't think of that.

So, do you think my intention was to cause a no lynch then?

It certainly could have been. I understand going for a fake-hammer can get interesting reactions, I have done it myself when I've gotten the chance, but doing it so close to the end of the day is dangerous.

[ThAdmiral]

also

unvote

Emptyger is posting good stuff.

[Fishythefish]

Emp is probably town. I get a gut town read on his posting. Particularly when I was going after him yesterday - really felt like he was trying to explain himself rather than just fight my case.

VOTE: sAb

I'm

V/LA

this weekend, from Friday until Monday. Don't know if I'll have internet or not. Right now, I'm looking very likely to be lynched (iam is confirmed town and assertive and wants me dead; Emp is happy to go along; sAb is leaning that way), and I'm thinking the most likely way for us to lose is a stupid quickhammer, particularly while I'm away. So I'm going to claim:

I'm a vig

. I killed MK last night. I thought he was scum, and more so when Arch flipped scum. Reasons to believe me (after I fail to get counterclaimed):
1. 6/2/1 is horrible for the town; they can very easily not have the majority day 2. You just wouldn't run it.
2. When Arch flipped scum, we were always going to be short on suspects today, and I was always going to be among them. Killing MK would be madness.
3. Scum will probably shoot me tonight anyway.
4. This is always a bad start to a sentence, but even if I

was

a SK, lynching me today would be neutral. You'd get 1 chance to catch the scum; may as well use that today, and lynch me if someone flips scum and the day doesn't end.

[iamausername]

K.

Unvote

VOTE: ThAdmiral

[Fishythefish]

Why ThAd? I think his major attacking of Arch, plus being the main counterwagon for most of the day, makes him very unlikely scum.

[iamausername]

The fact that he was the major counterwagon of the day was absolutely nothing to do with kuz/Archaist, who was at all times a lot more interested in pushing a counter-counterwagon on C-Worl, and in fact never voted ThAd, even when it was clear that one of the two of them was definitely going to be lynched.

[ThAdmiral]

PoE:

vote: Rhinox

[ThAdmiral]

The fact that he was the major counterwagon of the day was absolutely nothing to do with kuz/Archaist, who was at all times a lot more interested in pushing a counter-counterwagon on C-Worl, and in fact never voted ThAd, even when it was clear that one of the two of them was definitely going to be lynched.

While this is true he didn't vote

anyone

but c-worl all day.

[EmpTyger]

unvote: Fishythefish

, pending everyone checking in without incident post-Fishy's claim.


Fishy:

(because someone is going to hammer an L-1 wagon out of principle).

...and what if that wagon is misrepresented as not being a lynch-1 wagon?


iama:
Archaist was also uninterested in MK, when MK was the counterwagon.
I'm going to need to reread before I consider ThAd- and if I'm reevaluating him, I'm going to reevaluate you.  (And that won't happen until weekend at earliest.  Rereading on iPhone is hard.)

There are a lot of other factors that might have affected he nightkill: off the top of my head, ignorance of the second kill, protection concerns, powerrole hunting.  Why are you so certain that the reasoning you cited to clear Rhinox was the nightkill's motivation?   

[Beefster]

Impressive. The current votecount doesn't even

resemble

the previous votecount.

Votecount 2.3

sAb (1) - Fishy
ThAdmiral (1) - iamausername
Rhinox (1) - ThAdmiral

Not Voting

- sAb, Rhinox, EmpTyger

With 6 players alive, it takes

4

to lynch.

[Fishythefish]

@iam: your point is well taken. Neither arc nor kuz ever jumped on the ThAd bandwagon, making it much more likely he's scum. I suppose with 2-man scumteams it's not so true that there'll almost always be at least one townie BW. Still, ThAd's play on kuz/Arch makes me think he's less likely scum than sAb - I think you're putting much too much weight on sAb saying "that's not a hammer".

Fishy:

(because someone is going to hammer an L-1 wagon out of principle).

...and what if that wagon is misrepresented as not being a lynch-1 wagon?

Well, if they were convinced that it was a lynch already of course they wouldn't hammer. But this relies on Rhinox thinking everyone is silly enough to believe that without even checking, which seems implausible.

I'm V/LA - this is my last post until Monday night.

UNVOTE:

Not ready for a lynch yet.

[sAbLLimINal]

I had been focusing on ThAdmiral for the majority of the time yesterday because he was mostly band wagoning. Fishy's claim of being a vig makes sense because he was focusing on MK yesterday. With that claim, it is making ThAdmiral my top suspect again. However, as long as rhino or anyone else doesn't counter claim fishy's claim, I'm tempted just to go along with fishy's lead because we basically have a confirmed town member. I'd rather go along with someone leading the lynch like fishy instead of someone like iam, who although took on the leadership role, iam is not "confirmed" like fishy is.

[iamausername]

There are a lot of other factors that might have affected he nightkill: off the top of my head, ignorance of the second kill, protection concerns, powerrole hunting.  Why are you so certain that the reasoning you cited to clear Rhinox was the nightkill's motivation?   

I don't see how the first is remotely relevant, and I don't believe Rhinox is the type to base his kills around power role speculation, especially in this situation.

I'm tempted just to go along with fishy's lead because we basically have a confirmed town member. I'd rather go along with someone leading the lynch like fishy instead of someone like iam, who although took on the leadership role, iam is not "confirmed" like fishy is.

Being town is not the same as being right. It's best not to blindly follow anyone, regardless of how confirmed they are; is Fishy makes a flawed argument against someone, you can trust that he has no malicious intent in doing so, but it doens't make the argument any less flawed.

Case in point; right now he appears to be leaning towards you as the scum. Would you still rather follow his lead than mine?

[ThAdmiral]

@ iama: how did you know the scum killed c-worl before fishy's claim?

[iamausername]

Because it was freakin' obvious.

[ThAdmiral]

Still...

I mean it's not like they had different kill flavor or anything, they were both just "shot to death".

[sAbLLimINal]

Case in point; right now he appears to be leaning towards you as the scum. Would you still rather follow his lead than mine?

I'll do what's best for the town. If I were scum, would I state that I'll follow the person who thinks I'm scum?

[Beefster]

Rhinox has been prodded